WHAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST BECAME HIMSELF

John 1: 14–18; 2 Corinthians 8: 9; Revelation 1: 17–20

JS I have been thinking of the truth of what the Lord Jesus became in these scriptures. In John 1 the Word became flesh; in 2 Corinthians He became poor; and in Revelation 1 He became dead. These point to His own actions and we may consider the truth from that point of view. What was in mind in His becoming flesh was that this great matter of grace and truth should be brought in down here, and then the declaration of God; a divine Person coming into this condition of humanity so that God should be declared, and men should be brought into the knowledge of God. I thought it was very affecting in 2 Corinthians 8 that He not only became flesh but He “became poor, in order that ye by his poverty might be enriched”. Think of the poverty of such a One and how it has led to enrichment; we might consider something of the way that we have been enriched. In Revelation 1 He became dead and lived, He is alive for evermore. John had a view of Him there in a different way from what he was accustomed to; he had been accustomed to the Lord’s love, he was the disciple whom Jesus loved characteristically. He had a different view of Him in Revelation, moving in the midst of the assemblies; but He does not finish that book until He gives John a view of the greatness of what will be secured in finality in the heavenly city, and in the millennium in the holy city, the completeness of divine workmanship in the assembly. I wondered if we might get some help in beginning with John 1 to see the greatness of this matter of “the Word became flesh”. He came into this condition of humanity, He did not become an angel; He became flesh, the condition of men.

JW I am sure it is helpful to contemplate it; John says “we have contemplated his glory”; it is a great matter to contemplate the wonder of the incarnation, a divine Person coming into manhood.

JS And he adds “a glory as of an only-begotten with a father”. That is the scripture, that kind of glory that has been the opening up of this relationship as He has come into manhood.

RHB Why is it that the “Word became flesh”?

JS I think it is to help us as to this Person; verse 1 is very interesting, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God”. He had a distinctive personality and He was God, it is that Person who became flesh; so we are left in no doubt that He is a divine Person coming into this condition, do you think?

RHB Yes, I was thinking of what you said as to Him becoming flesh in order that God might be known, the Word would convey that. All that God has to say to men has been expressed in a Man; is that the force of it?

JS I think it is very beautiful to think of that. This Person who was known here as the Word, is able to convey to us the fulness of what God is, in a way that becomes intelligible to us.

DER Does “became” imply that the Person is ever the same, but that the condition which that Person took up was different?

JS That is right, there is no change in His Person; there is a change in the condition that He took up, He became flesh; He became something He was not before, a different condition.

GCB Do I gather that in the use of the word “became”, the translator was given great spiritual understanding? There are other translations where other words are used.

JS Well, that is the value of Mr Darby’s translation. We should emphasise the importance of using it, because there is a tendency to use other translations which are not so accurate. Mr Darby has been used to give us a translation of spiritual quality and his use of language is very enlightening.

RMB The opening verses of the chapter tell us what He was, and where we read today what He became. It tells us what He was, which makes it all the more wonderful what He became.

JS Think of Him in the greatness of His Person, it goes on in that section to say, “All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being”. It brings out the glory of His Person, and what a stoop it was for this Person to come in by way of incarnation, to become Man.

BES Not only the glory of His Person, but the distinctiveness of His Person, “the Word was with God”. We need to understand that those we now call the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were distinct Persons, even before the beginning here.

JS Scripture is very careful in that, “In the beginning was the Word”, that is His eternal existence; “and the Word was with God”, that is His separate existence; then “the Word was God”; I have no doubt about the fact that this Person was there eternally; it emphasises that in verse 2, “He was in the beginning with God”. He has a distinct personality.

BES Objections are sometimes raised to the use of certain words that we use, but Mr Darby says if you find me a better word I will use it—referring to the word ‘Person’.

JS It is quite clear that He was a Person, not just an influence, but a definite Person and He became flesh. He was manifested here in this condition of humanity.

JW Would it be right to say what He was and what He is gave character to what He became; His manhood was distinct, was it not?

JS Yes, but enlarge on that please, what is in your mind?

JW We are speaking of a divine Person in manhood, so that His manhood has a distinctive character because of who He is; that would give character to His manhood, would it?

JS Quite so. He was unique, distinct character coming into His manhood. I feel limited in speaking of these great matters, we are finite creatures speaking of things which are infinite.

DJW The expression “the Word” would involve that the truth is coming into expression in that Person. Elsewhere, the Lord says “I am the way, and the truth, and the life”, John 14: 6. All that was in God’s mind, in purpose and truth came into expression in Him and was brought near to men in perfection.

JS So “grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”. What a beautiful combination, God drawing near in grace but also in truth, involving the knowledge of Himself.

DER The Lord’s eternal personality is clear, such scriptures as “all things have been created by him” (Colossians 1: 16); but that in no wise conflicts with the fact that God has been revealed in the present dispensation, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Is that distinctive to this present dispensation?

JS It awaited the Son being here in this condition of flesh for that to come out. There was an indication at His baptism of the Trinity in testimony, the Son being baptised and the Father’s delight being expressed in Him and the Spirit descended in a bodily form as a dove upon Him; really the Trinity was there in testimony, was it not?

RHB I was thinking of the opening of the epistle to the Hebrews that God has spoken to us in Son, not only by what He said, or what He did, but in that Person. Is that the force of the Word becoming flesh, that God has brought into expression all that He Himself is towards man, and all that man is to be before Him?

JS He has spoken in the Person of the Son. He spoke formerly by the prophets, but now we are in this distinctive time when He has spoken in Son, bringing out the greatness of the speaking.

RHB He had spoken before in the prophets to the fathers; He gave the law on tables of stone, but nothing is to compare with the Word becoming flesh.

JS Quite so. We get a reference here to the law being given by Moses, but it says,

“grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”, that is, they had come into expression down here in this Person, in this Man, and they continue.

JW The reference to how He dwelt among us, or tabernacled among us, would that show that God coming into humanity would have in mind to dwell among men?

JS He came here and dwelt or tabernacled among us. I think it would bring out that God’s eternal thought is to dwell in nearness to men, he shall tabernacle with them”, Revelation 21: 3. It is not the temple idea, with a certain degree of distance, but the tabernacle conveys a homely near thought.

RMB Is what is in your mind that coming into flesh was His own act?

JS I think it helps us to realise that this was a divine Person moving in this way, He became flesh. This was His own action, it was not imposed upon Him; He became flesh, He became something different from what He was before. He had a right to be there in Godhead, but He made Himself of no reputation, or emptied Himself, and was here in the likeness of men.

DEB The well-known passage in Philippians 2 uses the word “emptied himself”, Philippians 2: 7. That is rather a profound statement, it does not do well to try and analyse it, but it supports what you are saying, that He became what He was not before.

JS Every scripture has its own particular distinctiveness, and Philippians 2 specially brings out how low He came. It seems to me that in John 1, it is bringing out the glory of His movement, that He became flesh. It had in view the declaration of God, “No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. No one has seen God at any time—well, we have to accept that; but then the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared Him. The declaration of God has come by way of this Person, in this unique relationship, the only-begotten Son in the bosom of the Father.

RC Is this thought of nearness something that John knew? The only-begotten Son who was in the bosom of the Father, John knew something of this nearness Himself, did he?

JS Well, he did, He was in the bosom of Jesus (John 13: 23), He would have learned as he contemplated His glory, One who was in the bosom of the Father, the only-begotten Son; that was His distinctive place.

JW Is that the place He took as coming into manhood, in the bosom of the Father, and He remains there, does He?

JS I understand so. We cannot carry this thought back into a past eternity. In the bosom of the Father was the place He came into in becoming flesh, coming into manhood, and He is there and retains that place eternally. So that the declaration of God has come to us by way of this relationship.

DJW That He became flesh is affecting because He came into a condition in which He could die. I wondered if that links on with becoming poor and the reference in Revelation to becoming dead.

JS Quite so. He came into a condition where He could die, and death regarded as His own action, He became dead. Maybe we should go on to consider that He became poor.

His becoming poor had in mind that we should be enriched; clearly that would be enrichment through the knowledge of God. It is not in any way that we should be enriched in material things. In the old economy in Israel, enrichment was pretty much in relation to substance here, material substance and so on, but in our dispensation I think we are to come into spiritual riches. And it is through our Lord Jesus Christ becoming poor; I think that is very affecting to our souls! He became poor, He came into very humble, lowly circumstances, born in a manger, and at one point He had to say, “Shew me a denarius”, Luke 20: 24. It shows the poor, humble circumstances He came into, so that we should be spiritually enriched.

JW Paul links this with His grace, “ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Could you say something about that?

JS We know well what grace it is; He became poor and reached us on the one hand in our need, divine grace meets us in our need; but then beyond reaching us in our need, I think divine grace has in mind to enrich us. So we get expressions in Ephesians like, “the riches of his grace” (Ephesians 1: 7), that is to set us up according to God’s purpose and the “glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ”, Ephesians 3: 8. That is to show us how greatly enriched we can be through the poverty of this One.

BES I was going to ask, does His poverty refer to the fact that He became Man as contrasted with conditions in the form of God, or does it refer to the actual lowliness of the conditions in manhood into which He descended; in the form of a servant, for example, or bondman, and all that follows?

JS In my mind it would include both. In the condition of God He could say, “For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle upon a thousand hills ... If I were hungry, I would not tell thee”, Psalm 50: 10, 11. Then I think Philippians would help us in relation to that. He not only came into human conditions, involving poverty, that would be lowly enough for Him in His Person, but He took a bondman’s form. He came into the lowliest condition of humanity, the condition of a slave; so I think it would include both.

RHB In the context of the verse, the apostle is seeking to stimulate giving among the saints, is he not? And he speaks of proving the genuineness of your love before this verse. Then he speaks of One who became poor. We are reminded each week that He gave Himself, “This is my body which is given for you ... my blood, which is poured out for you”, Luke 22: 19, 20. In that He has proved the genuineness of His love.

JS I think that should affect us week by week. As you say, the context of this chapter was the giving of the saints in a material sense, and even that was to convey Christ’s glory. I think it would be a help to us in relation to one another; if someone is materially poor it calls out the affections of the saints. Now, I think it should be the same if someone is spiritually poor, it should call out the affections of the saints. What can we do in love to serve them? Not to oppress them but can we do something in love to serve them, so that they are elevated to the divine thoughts for them.

EOPM So that in John’s gospel the Lord came into conditions where He could be contemplated. Is this then a further thought, that it was not the divine mind that the declaration of God should stop at the blessed display of what

God is, but that men should actually be brought into it, and into the enjoyment of it, and that necessitated not only His becoming flesh, but His becoming poor?

JS Quite so. I think it is intended that we should be affected by these movements. It is a great matter to have them before us and to contemplate them, then I think it is intended to produce a result in ourselves. After all, God has in mind to secure a dwelling-place among His people now, and to secure an answer to His love that will continue beyond the present time into eternity. It is a great matter to lay hold of what we are engaged with presently; the resulting formation will go through into eternity.

DEB The Lord could have called upon twelve legions of angels, could He not? That was the magnificence of the resource that was available to Him, but He did not do that.

JS If He had called on twelve legions of angels to deliver Him, where would we have been? Still in poverty! But divine grace has operated in this way that He became poor and submitted to going into death, in order that we should be brought into the richness of divine thoughts. Otherwise it would not have been possible.

BES In Matthew’s gospel the Lord’s detailed ministry begins with “Blessed are the poor in spirit”, Matthew 5: 3. Can you help us to understand what that means?

JS Well, I think that poor in spirit would mean persons like Himself. I do not think the Lord was here asserting His own rights. I think being poor in spirit would involve that He accepted the ordinary circumstances of life as being in them perfectly. ‘Poor in spirit’ points to persons of His own character. I wondered if we might get some help on this, that the end in view is that we should be enriched. Have we understood the greatness of what is in mind for us? We have been reading the epistle to the Ephesians in our local setting and I wonder if we have really understood and come into the enjoyment of the greatness of divine riches. The Lord has gone this way in order that we should be enriched through His poverty.

GCB That would include the gift of the Holy Spirit.

JS We could not understand these things apart from the Spirit. We had a reference in the hymn to how the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. Well, that is to bring out the greatness of these things, the things that God has prepared for those that love Him. Well we need the Spirit; He does not need to search these things for Himself; He does it on our behalf.

AJMcS If it involves the gift of the Spirit, that must mean that becoming poor involved His death, do you think?

JS That He became poor involved His death. Philippians would help us as to that; He became obedient even unto death, even to that extent; He took a bondman’s form and became obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross, such a death. Then it would involve the follow-up from His death—His resurrection and glorification before we could receive the Spirit, do you think?

AJMcS I think that. God could not give the indwelling Spirit to the life to which sin attached; it required that the man might be removed before the Spirit could be communicated, do you think?

JS Quite so. I think it is very important to follow that through in our experimental history, to see how it was necessary for the first order of man to be removed from the sight of God, and then to come to it that not only had he to be removed from before the sight of God but from before my sight; so that the Spirit might have right of way. We have to be involved in how we follow things through in the experimental side of Romans through to chapter 8, do you think, where the Spirit has liberty?

AJMcS I have been thinking that, particularly, in chapter 7. We used to speak a lot of that, and perhaps conversed together over the doctrinal side, but you get the impression that God is bringing before us the practical side, as to whether we have truly got through to what is before us in chapter 8. It would make a difference in our personal lives and make a difference in our localities, do you think?

JS Quite so. I think it is very important for us. It is helpful for young believers just to refer to that because they go through an experience, and I think it is necessary for all of us. You want to do what is pleasing to the Lord and the more you try to do it the more you cannot do it; there is something inside you working against it. Then you come to it that you have no power in yourself to do that, and you have to look to Another, you have to look outside yourself to Another, and then you find you have the power of the Spirit to help you. We find that what we cannot do in our own power, we have the power of the Spirit to help us, and I think as we begin to realise the fulness of the Spirit as presented in Romans 8, we are on the way of entrance into these spiritual and heavenly things.

DER Contemplation of the condescending character of the Lord Himself in His grace, divesting Himself of all the riches that were His, is calculated, is it not, to affect us and stimulate our love for Him, and to cause us to judge the natural pride of the human heart?

JS Well, it is a great matter to have Christ before us as an object for our contemplation. I think it is a wonderful thing that God has given us an object for our affections; He gives us things to help us in our minds but we have an object for our hearts, and He will hold us, not only for time but for eternity.

DJR And if we have an object, that is the Man in resurrection, Christ raised, where He is in glory.

JS Christ glorified is the great object before us; what an object He is, and as we are engaged with Him we realise that that is the place that God has in mind for us. Our place is heaven and the things we are to enjoy are the spiritual and heavenly things, and they are really set out for us in Christ.

DJW The Lord Himself said in resurrection to Mary, “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”, John 20: 17. ‘Your Father’, He could not have said that before His death, could He? It is one of the riches that we are intended to come into, which would involve the conscious sense of our relationship with the Father in sonship, do you think?

JS Quite so. He waited until that time when He was out from among the dead, and He says, “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”. I think the epistle to the Ephesians helps us in the opening up of that; “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1: 3), that One that we can address as our Father, the One who has blessed us so abundantly with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ.

JW In the opening of the first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 2, Paul speaks of the things that God has prepared for us, and the way that they are revealed to us by the Spirit. In the first chapter he speaks of the cross of Christ; does that all bear on what you are saying and would refer to the death of the Lord Jesus, but it was the death of the cross; that would bear on His poverty but the enrichment comes out in chapter 2 as to the things that were prepared for us by God?

JS You get the ending of one order of man altogether at the cross, and Paul’s concern in going to Corinth was to know nothing among them save Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and then he is free to open up a little touch of these glorious matters that God wants to enrich us with. It is very interesting that he says “we speak wisdom among the perfect”, 1 Corinthians 2: 6. I do not think he could bring it out fully at Corinth because of the state there, but he was writing from Ephesus, and he says “we speak wisdom among the perfect”. One thing that was greater than the epistle to the Ephesians was the assembly at Ephesus.

JSG I wondered if Paul’s reference in chapter 6, two chapters earlier than this, “as poor, but enriching many” (2 Corinthians 6: 10), would show that in substance he was in some way expressing the character you spoke about here, that we are to take on from the model of the Lord Jesus.

JS Quite so. Paul took on the character of Christ, very much as poor but enriching many. He was prepared to adapt himself to the needs of those he served. That is a very important lesson for us, to get alongside persons when they need to be served, and to seek to serve them in the Spirit of Christ. He was rich enough himself to do that, a man who had an experience in the third heaven, in paradise, he must have been greatly enriched to be able to come and serve others who needed to be served.

JSG As to what you have just said, he says, “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12: 2.

JS Well, he was able to carry that, he could not communicate those things, they were not suited to our present condition; but I have no doubt what entered into his soul as a result of the experience gave him the substance in which to serve others.

KJM How much do we understand this poverty continues; He became poor but then, does that continue?

JS I think He “became poor” related to His condition here; He “became poor” and as we may see in Revelation, He “became dead”, He went to that extent. I think there are wonderful riches portrayed in Himself now; I have no doubt He can, in His spirit, enter into the feelings of those who are poor, either materially or spiritually, but I think what is in mind in 2 Corinthians 8 is the extent to which He went, “became poor, in order that ye by his poverty”—through the poverty of such a One as that—we might be enriched. I think it is to affect us in our souls the extent to which He has gone, to bring about our enrichment. The thing for us would be how much have we entered into the enjoyment of this enrichment.

GCB Messiah was cut off and He had nothing, but in resurrection He takes it all up again, and more, does He not?

JS So it says, “He shall see of the fruit of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied”, Isaiah 53: 11. It is in mind that there should be some result from it. Well, can we rise to the greatness of these things, that by the divine mind we should be enriched with, not only for our blessing, but that the pleasure of God should be secured; He has marked us out for adoption to Himself.

DER He is now crowned with glory and honour. He is beyond conditions of humiliation and poverty now, is He not?

JS Quite so. I think in His glorified condition God is really setting out His thought for men; finally it will be conformity to the image of His Son, but He is setting out what we can be brought into in Christ Jesus now.

RSH I was wondering if you could say something as to “of his fulness we all have received”. We did not get quite as far as that in the first passage, but I was wondering if that would enter into the enrichment that is ours. I would like to understand what that involves.

JS “For of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace”. Well, you feel measured as to what you can say about that. You think of the One in whom all the fulness was pleased to dwell, relating to His condition here; and then, in whom all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily (Colossians 2: 9), relating to His present condition. What supplies there must be in such a Person!

AJMcS Do you think too, that these things being received involve displacement; you cannot have both things at the same time, you cannot be freighted with grace if you are full of hatred; it involves displacement and these spiritual riches involve displacement as well, do you think?

JS So we have to be emptied in order to be filled with these other things; grace upon grace, what a supply that is, so as receiving grace upon grace from the Lord Jesus we have the capacity to act in this way towards one another, would you think?

AJMcS Well, I was thinking that in a very practical way, what you are bringing before us was very much proved at the beginning of the recovery. Persons who were marked with quite considerable material wealth were prepared to come down a little, often putting items of jewellery into the collection in order that they might be sold and contributed to the Lord’s work and to the poor. Well, you just feel for yourself how far we have got from that spirit, and yet if we had only half of what these men had we would be in things really, do you think?

JS Well, it is interesting you comment on that as to the early days of the recovery because some of these persons were very well off, but I think what occupied them so much was the Head in heaven and the body here, and as to the truth they were very much occupied with the epistle to the Ephesians. If we are enriched spiritually we can act spiritually in relation to these material things, and we can act spiritually in relation to one another.

AJMcS As far as material things are concerned we can always put it into circulation.

JS Quite so. And needs arise amongst the saints that call for that. We have had some experience of that just recently; the saints in their affections respond to a spiritual touch in these things. It is not just something happening in a material sense, but there is a spiritual touch presented, messengers of assemblies, Christ’s glory, even in the handling of material things. And I think we need to be spiritually qualified in our relations with one another, “ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness”, Galatians 6: 1. I think that is important, too, that we are spiritually rich enough to be able to do these things.

AJMcS Do you think that all involves repentance? It is always needed when a person is to be restored, but on the other hand it also requires grace from the side of the apostle. You need a lot of grace and repentance from the other that goes to the working out of things in the local assembly.

JS Paul says, “For grief according to God works repentance to salvation, never to be regretted”, 2 Corinthians 7: 10. It is repentance according to God, that is the divine standard of repentance. I think it is a matter of whether we are spiritually wealthy enough, enriched through the movements of the One who became poor. Maybe we could just refer to Revelation. The section I had in mind is from verse 17 of chapter 1, “And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one—and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades. Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these. The mystery of the seven stars which thou hast seen on my right hand, and the seven golden lamps. The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies; and the seven lamps are seven assemblies”. John had a view of the

Lord moving in the midst of these assemblies, he had been accustomed to having a place in the Lord’s bosom, conscious of the Lord’s love, but he saw Him in a different way here, and it says, “I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead”. I think there is something for our encouragement in this section. He became dead, but He is the living one and He is living to the ages of ages, and has the keys of death and of hades. So that He is reminding us that He is in control of everything, and that things are going to go through to completion because He is in control. It is a matter of recognising the Lord’s rights to exert His control.

JW Having the keys of death and hades shows He has control of that, does it?

JS Quite so. So He has secured control of them, He has gained the victory, has He not? He has secured it that way, the keys of death and of hades, I think that is very encouraging for us.

RMB Why are death and hades both mentioned?

JS Well, I think it shows the greatness of adverse powers, death will be the last enemy to be annulled; and you remember, when the Lord was speaking of building His assembly, He says, “hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”, Matthew 16: 18. Hades’ gates refer to the great organised administration of evil opposed to what Christ is doing, but He says that they shall not prevail against the assembly. I think the working out of that would come here.

JSG Does verse 8 of chapter 2, where a similar reference is made, suggest that the Lord may, among other things, have had in mind the fact that many of the saints precious to Him lost their lives in faithfulness. Is that something we might continue to have in mind in the present day?

JS Well, I think so. He says, I am “the first and the last, who became dead”. He says to Smyrna, “He that overcomes shall in no wise be injured of the second death”, Revelation.2: 11. He is showing that the overcomer will not be affected by the second death. Some may have suffered even to death here, and it is affecting that persons suffer martyrdom. I think we are also intended to feel how persons may suffer for the truth in faithfulness. Persons may seek to maintain the truth in integrity, specially the truth of Christ and the assembly and the way that has been recovered to us; persons may seek to maintain that and have to suffer on that account, suffer in their spirits, and suffer perhaps sometimes in their circumstances. The Lord would assure us that He takes account of all that, He knows everything that is going on in every assembly.

JW Would you say something about John here, falling at his feet as dead? It is to such a one that the Lord speaks in this way.

JS Do you think John was conscious of his weakness in the presence of such a One, he fell at his feet as dead, and yet the Lord gives him this reassuring touch, “he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not”. I think we need some consciousness of the Lord acting in His service towards us, in view of the way things are to go through in the assembly, do you think?

JW Yes. You spoke of persons who feel things; I suppose we see things rightly as we see the Lord’s attitude to things at the present time, do we not? The Lord is here in a judicial way and John felt that, falling at His feet as dead; but the Lord assures him, He says, I became dead, but I am alive for evermore. The Lord would give John power to serve in those conditions.

JS So the Lord gives him a review of the seven assemblies; as we know it covers the whole history publicly of the assembly in the dispensation. But these were also local assemblies at that time, and the Lord goes through them and says to John “I know”. There were things He could commend and He does that, and there were things that He was against and He expresses His feelings about these things. I think He would bring persons into sympathy with Himself. Ezekiel gives us those that sigh and cry, feeling things according to God.

DER Is there a suggestion in the Lord becoming dead in this way that He had in view the opening up of a realm of life beyond death? There is one who is able to fall at His feet as dead who was in the gain of the death of Christ, and was able to enter into that realm in spirit, of life beyond death.

JS Quite so. So John is the one who was used in his gospel and epistles to speak so much about life. I think this touch from the living One gave him the ability to write this book and to write these other books; to bring us to life according to God where we can enjoy eternal things in a living way. He became dead, and apart from this, things could not have been effected that He has in mind right through to the end of this book. So we get the Lord working things out in relation to these assemblies. He says, “Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these. The mystery of the seven stars which thou hast seen on my right hand, and the seven golden lamps. The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies; and the seven lamps are seven assemblies”. We have often been reminded that these seven stars are really representative of responsible elements in the assemblies, and I think it is important to keep in mind that the Lord is looking for each one of us to take on responsibilities as to our local assemblies.

JW Can we only do that in the power of life?

JS Well I think that is why He says, “I am the first and the last, and the living one”. He became dead and now He is living, and He is going to continue as the Living one. Whatever may come in, He is the first and the last, whatever may come in between, He has the capacity to handle every situation; and to handle things as the One who has control.

AJMcS Do you think we find in Judah the one who was prepared to take responsibility? I suppose he was only one of the many who were involved in the selling of Joseph, but the way that he took on responsibility as to Benjamin, he really took that on himself. And then the other side what amounts to praise, these two things seem to go together. Are we prepared to accept things and not blame others, accept them for ourselves and the line of praise flows out from that, do you think?

JS What you refer to in Judah is interesting; it was concern for his father’s feelings and Benjamin, was it not? Benjamin would represent the work of God in the saints. I think we need to have divine feelings about the work of God in one another, and take responsibility for what God is doing in one another; not just simply for things that may seem to need adjustment, but to take responsibility in relation to the work of God in one another, and, as you say, what follows from that is praise. I think it has in mind that there should be enrichment of divine praise.

DJW That may involve the downward steps with each one of us, do you think? As seen in perfection in Christ coming into manhood, being poor, it may involve having this lowly spirit in going down, do you think?

JS Quite so. I think really that as we are conscious of being divinely enriched that we shall manifest such a spirit. Do you have more in mind as to that?

DJW No, except it is a very testing thing because the flesh is active in us.

JS Well, that is why we need to have a judgment of ourselves, need to have a judgment of the flesh in ourselves; and then to identify the work of God in ourselves that is the “I, myself”, of Romans 7: 25. As we come to that in personal soul experience, it enables us to recognise the work of God in others.

Reading at Havering
3 December 2005

KEY TO INITIALS

R. H. Brown

R. S. Hutson

D. J. Roberts

R. M. Brown

A. J. McSeveney

J. Strachan

D. E. Burr

K. J. May

B. E. Surtees

G. C. Bywater

E. O. P. Mutton

D. J. Wright

R. Cumming

D. E. Remmington

J. Wright

J .S. Gray