ESSENTIALS FOR COMING TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH
John 3: 1–6; 4: 10–17; 7: 38, 39; 14: 15–18
DMW I have been thinking of some consideration for coming to the knowledge of the truth. The verses read relate to a divine Person. The Lord Jesus spoke of “that day” in John’s gospel. Coming to the knowledge of the truth is a divine desire, “our Saviour God, who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth”, 1 Timothy 2: 4.
It might be important for us to enquire as to the essentials for this; to consider how the truth is possessed, expressed and experienced, and how it is to be our joy. These verses refer to the Spirit. The sovereign work of the Spirit would begin in our souls as a moral foundation, from which He would bring us into the truth in a living way. In chapter 4, although the Spirit is not specifically mentioned, the Lord Jesus touches the point of an entirely different and new kind of life with satisfaction, where affections would be adjusted and regulated in a right way.
Then in chapter 7 He speaks of the Spirit again in view of His being glorified, “which they that believed on him were about to receive”; they meaning something collective is in mind. In chapter 14 the Lord speaks of the Spirit as in charge of everything in the Lord’s absence.
There are other references we could have read; one in John 6, “It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing” (John 6: 63). In chapter 15, “Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, he shall bear witness concerning me” (John 15: 26), and in chapter 16, “the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth” (John 16: 13). So I thought we might look at these verses and seek help, and for the Spirit to help us in our thoughts in the exercise to meet the divine desire to come to the knowledge of the truth.
JS Would this matter of new birth really be essential if we are to come to the knowledge of the truth?
DMW Yes. It is essential this should occur. We are helped in the footnote but also helped in our experience as we look at things retrospectively. Something occurs that is the divine work, and it is from a different source from what we would receive naturally; this is the beginning of things and is essential as we start the road to meet the divine desire to come to the knowledge of the truth.
MGW In some way does that include the knowledge of the person of Christ? He was full of grace and truth. What do you think?
DMW Yes, quite so. It is spoken of by the Lord later. The Spirit would not speak from Himself, but what He heard He would speak (John 16: 13). The Lord said that of Himself as well (John 12: 49) and that He did things He saw the Father doing. That which He received from the Father is what He spoke. So in the Lord’s absence there must be another divine Person, and that divine Person would glorify Christ and bear witness to Christ above. The apostles would also bear witness, especially in the completion of the canon of Scripture. But this witness is a divine Person, who is in charge of everything, and He speaks to us of Christ. Not only that but He comes forth from with the Father to imbue us with grace, and this helps us to come to the knowledge of the truth as enjoying relationships.
APG John says the Spirit is the truth. In the gospel the Lord says “I am ... the truth”, but the Spirit too is said to be the truth. Is that in view of us coming into the good of it and into the enjoyment of it?
DMW The Spirit is the truth subjectively and Christ is the truth objectively. We have an object outside of ourselves, and we love Him and we draw everything from Him. We have no blessing and no life outside of Him, everything is in Christ Jesus, and yet the Spirit is the truth and that would be so subjectively in the saints. As we come into these things and realise there has been a divine work going on in our souls, not only do we see that we have a new object but our motives are different, things change with us morally, things change with us as we begin to think spiritually; the truth subjectively comes out in the saints so that the truth is not merely something theoretical.
JS This work is related to what the Spirit does in the soul, is it not?
DMW Yes, it is. Say some more.
JS I was just thinking of what it says, “Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God”, and then, “Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”, so that we are entirely dependent on this beginning for the Spirit to produce effect in our souls, do you think?
DMW Yes, we really come into everything by the Spirit and without the Spirit we cannot come under the moral sway of God, we cannot see the kingdom as rightly displayed in Christ or enter into it with a state cleansed for expressing it now during the Lord’s absence. Everything is dependent on the Holy Spirit. The idea of course from the divine side is that our eyes be opened to see the kingdom and then there would be movement into it; so too, as another has said, the kingdom should be in the saints. We are to see it and enter into it ourselves. We are entirely dependent on the Holy Spirit to see and enter the kingdom.
MGW It must have been something of a jolt for this Pharisee. He is described later as the teacher of Israel, but to him life was going to be of a different source and he had to be born anew. I take it he was at the top of the social scale; we might describe the woman in John 4 as at the bottom of the social scale, but the whole range of things you feel is that the Spirit is the only source, the sovereign action to bring about the work of God in our souls. There is something very encouraging about that, is there not?
DMW That is very helpful, the top and the bottom, but it is still a sovereign work. It is interesting that Nicodemus refers to the Lord Jesus as a teacher, as if to say he had some inclination but he came to Jesus by night. Perhaps the weight of the religious system bore on his own thinking and he would have to be delivered from that, but in referring to the Lord as a teacher Nicodemus had some inclination even towards the truth. He did not know it yet, and neither do we at the beginning, but there is something that has changed. We might realise that and yet be linked up with something that might hinder our spiritual thinking. We are not delivered or free quite yet, but the idea is that coming to the Lord Jesus we are now on the road. Later we discover it is entirely a sovereign work.
MGW It is a great comfort and a real joy that when you read this it does not look as if the Lord made a lot of progress with this man, but by the end of the book we discover that something had really wrought in his soul. Is that not an encouragement for us; we might not be grasping a lot of this really deep down in our soul, but the Spirit of God can work with us so that these things that we are enjoying as light are going to be power in our souls. There is a joy that rises up in the heart in this, is there not?
DMW Very good, well in John 19, just to read what you are referring to, it says, “And Nicodemus also, who at first came to Jesus by night, came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. They took therefore the body of Jesus and bound it up in linen with the spices, as it is the custom with the Jews to prepare for burial” (John 19: 39, 40). Here he is more free and is now making it known who he is going to be identified with; he is identified with the Lord and the death of the Lord which means in principle that he is ready for fellowship.
AMcK The authority aspect being stressed means that we can no longer do our own will.
DMW That is just it. It is a drastic change. We may be the same persons but now there is a different life; everything new is opening as I come under the moral sway of Someone who loves me, is going to direct me, and going to provide proper rule. But, that means my will has to go! It might take a lifetime to learn something about that but nevertheless that is the idea, I think. Say some more.
AMcK I was just thinking of the end of the dispensation and John, we are often told, is the last gospel written; it means that different parts are being placed together, are they not?
DMW Yes. The Lord in John’s gospel was not looking for anything morally in Israel or in man. You might say man had his opportunity, man in the flesh, not to prove anything to God, but God had another kind of man in mind; that Man comes on to the scene and He is looking at the persons, or the parts, and finds potential for what will be here as formed and empowered by the Holy Spirit; that potential will be an answer to what was seen here in Him. It takes all the parts for that as I understand.
GBG Would it be right to say that such persons here have a new moral being, and a new spiritual being?
DMW Well I believe it would. What is your thought? Help us.
GBG As “born of water and of Spirit” and what is “born of the Spirit is spirit”, a person’s conscience would be more sensitive than it was before, and it would be the beginning of what is spiritual in the believer, and made way for. He would delight in the law of God according to the inward man, do you think?
DMW Yes, that is helpful. I think that is just it, it is from an entirely different and new source and as we know from our own experience and being among the brethren, the whole counsel of God involves what is entirely heavenly in character. It is totally different, a new moral being as you say, and something that is spiritual rather than natural.
GBG So is this how God secures His purpose in regard to men? It is the Spirit’s own initiative in view of securing what He has in mind in us. Is that right?
DMW Yes. God always takes the initiative in that way because we would never respond without this work. We can take up what is religious according to the flesh and it would centre on ourselves, but there is nothing for God in that. The Old Testament saints had faith but everything we arrive at in Christianity awaited the incoming of Christ. The establishment of it for us was through Christ’s death, resurrection and glorification. From that position above another divine Person has come to operate and effectuate everything in the divine mind according to purpose; set out in Christ perfectly, but now in the saints by the Spirit.
JMM Just to take up what our brother referred to, the fact that this was the last gospel to be written, it was written very late when the church publicly had failed; but even though the church was no longer a public force John speaks extensively about the Spirit. He refers to the Spirit in relation to the assemblies, and indicates it is the way that life will be maintained. He speaks extensively in his own gospel about the Spirit, as you are indicating, and although the church publicly is no longer something that we can depend on as an institution, we can know the living aspect of things because it is by one Spirit that we are baptised into one body.
DMW Yes, very good; so, as we have in chapter 14, the Spirit is in charge of things. If man is in charge of them there is breakdown for something of man will come into it. But, if John’s gospel is the last written, it is to preserve the saints as getting through to the Spirit and in seeing that coming to the knowledge of the truth there must be nearness to the Holy Spirit and in association with Him.
JMM Nicodemus really represents initially what is institutional and it is being superseded by something that is living as the result of the presence here of a divine Person. It is a very wonderful thing.
DMW Yes, very good.
JAW We often sing that hymn,
‘Spirit of truth, ‘tis Thou who lead’st us on
Into the fulness of God’s purpose here’. (Hymn 401)
We are being led on bit by bit, precept upon precept. It is not all done at once but the Spirit’s tireless service is to bring us into that.
DMW Quite so. He deals with us state-wise, and He is with the assembly; again, it is so we fill out things in a living way. This is not theoretical, and therefore we do not go to Bible schools and theological seminaries, we go to the school of God. That means we are sitting at the feet of Jesus and are near to the Spirit. The whole counsel of God is in view, nothing less than that.
ALMcK In verse 6 two lines are going on, are they not, the flesh and the spirit? That which is born of the flesh can only produce flesh, but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That is the profitable line, is it not?
DMW Yes, very good. In the Lord’s teaching and in the Scriptures contrasts are presented. As we get to know the Spirit and of His availability to us, we see things a bit more clearly by taking in contrasts; so, the flesh profits nothing, the Spirit quickens. It makes us alive to spiritual things, but the flesh profits nothing.
ALMcK Jesus stresses it, He speaks strongly. He begins by saying, “Verily, verily”, and then He says in verse 7, “It is needful that ye should be born anew”.
DMW Yes, it is absolutely essential, it is a sovereign work and it is accomplished because God moves from Himself in love. He has taken everything upon Himself. I suppose in the old covenant there was a certain part that man would do, and there was a certain part that God would do as a result, but now He has taken the initiative for everything.
JS Do you think this matter of the difference between the flesh and the Spirit is something that really runs through our histories in coming to a knowledge of the truth, that we learn to judge the flesh and make room for the Spirit?
DMW Yes, quite so. That I believe is how we make room for the Spirit; by subduing and negating the flesh. According to Acts 2 He sat upon each one of them, as parted tongues of fire, as if to suggest that the flesh was being subdued while the Spirit came in, and so it is in our experience. It is a tremendous power really. It is the power of God at work in the midst of awful opposition that begins in our own breast.
JMM It is really the strongest possible contrast that exists between the flesh and the Spirit. According to Romans 8 the mind of the flesh is death, the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.
DMW Yes, I was thinking of that. The Spirit has a mind about things and the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, and there is no life outside of Christ. In Romans 8 the Spirit is life on account of righteousness, so that links in some way with what we have here referring to the kingdom of God.
JS When you referred earlier to coming under the moral sway of the One who loves us, that is really the kingdom of God, is it not?
DMW Yes, it is.
JS We tend to think perhaps that the kingdom of God is rather hard in its terms, but it is not that. It is how we come under the sway of such a One, the Lord Jesus.
DMW So baptism in a sense brings us onto that ground externally and links us up with the kingdom in its present bearing, “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”, Romans 14: 17. Those things do not fit with the legal system. The law was holy, righteous and good but it did not bring about life, nor was there the real expression of love, but joy and peace brings us into liberty, and so we are under the moral sway of Someone who loves us and would never direct us in the wrong way.
JS That sway is now maintained by the Spirit. When the Lord was here Himself the kingdom of God was expressed in Him and now is it maintained in the Spirit?
DMW It is.
MGW I am glad this has been brought up. I am wondering if you could give us a word on the two things that are said, “cannot see the kingdom of God” and “cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. Our brother in a way has answered it because it was there in His Person. There was a time when the Pharisees said to Him, “When is the kingdom of God coming?”, Luke 17: 20. He said, It does not come with observation, it is in the midst you, but they could not see it.
DMW That is right. Of course He is the King, the coming King in power and glory. He has been made Lord and Christ officially, so each one of us is linked with Him in a kingdom, in the sense of our having moved into the kingdom. That is a moral thought and therefore should be seen in us. You may say, Where is the assembly? Well, the assembly is like the capital city as referred to in the kingdom, where things are worked out among kingdom persons linked with the Lord Jesus as the Administrator. As the Son of His love, He administers things in view of our coming into the land; but then, there are these responsibilities, and we must have direction, be subject-minded and be near to the Spirit. We want to be subject to such a One who loves us!
MGW We have our own individual and secret exercises with the Lord and with the Spirit, and you look around at the company and this is going on; it is a kingdom, it is an area where we are protected, and where there is power and all the authority of the kingdom and the love, the kingdom of the Son of His love. That is the idea too and it gives us a very precious view of one another and of all the saints, do you think?
DMW Yes, the idea is protection morally, we are cleansed, we are born of water and Spirit. We take up things that are spiritual, but there is a moral basis for that being worked out in our souls and through our exercises and, if that is maintained, then there is progress spiritually. The assembly is reached therefore in a right way, in conditions for the Spirit to be free in that realm, in that area, where eternal life conditions are held and enjoyed in a heavenly way.
JS The Spirit would bring us to be satisfied persons.
DMW Quite so, and do you think that the Samaritan, the outcast, characterised most of us? Unsatisfied persons, amusing ourselves, constantly going after this thing and that thing. This woman had five husbands, and the man she was living with at that time was not her husband, but the Lord comes in to set out in a very striking way, that there was something available to her that would adjust and regulate her affections finally, and she would be satisfied.
JS “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water”. The Lord has in mind that we should be entirely satisfied with Himself and what He has provided in the Spirit.
DMW That is just it. Then the Lord leads us into something as He speaks further in the chapter of the Father, to bring in the true worshippers for which she was being formed as a result of her experience with the Lord; and, she would become satisfied with Him, “Come, see a man”. She was immediately, instinctively, we could say, moving in a way that each one of us would move as we find that He is everything to us; we are satisfied with Him.
JS Do you think as we find an object to satisfy our hearts in Christ that opens up the way to the truth of the body, because really the body essentially must be of satisfied persons?
DMW Just so, and therefore in John 7, when the Lord speaks of the Spirit again, it is in connection with what is collective and it is in connection with His place above, that is the Lord’s place; but the Spirit would therefore come from that glorified position above, and there would be those who receive Him, as on the day of Pentecost when the body and the bride were formed. Is that right?
JS Just so, it is very interesting; it is where He is glorified, not only when He was in heaven, but where He is glorified.
DMW Quite so. I hope we can see in chapter 7 what is different from chapter 4 in that way, but seeing it in view of what is collective. Each one comes into this, and no doubt the Samaritan woman who became attached to the Lord was in view of the potential availability for the Spirit on the day of Pentecost, at least it would suggest that. But in chapter 7 He seems to bring it together leading to what is collective, and that it is really on His being glorified; the Spirit would then come and form what would express Christ and persons would fit into this.
JS Do you think this thought of Christ being glorified, would involve how the Father has expressed His approval of Him morally? He affords such delight, and the Spirit has come from that Person glorified.
DMW Quite so, there are other verses that we could have read as to that, but here in chapter 7 Jesus says, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”. Therefore He cries concerning the Spirit who would come and witness as to Christ glorified. It is the One who is morally qualified, we say reverently, to be the Head, to be the One who administers in love. He is morally qualified for that glorified position.
JS I was just thinking this is progress from chapter 4, so that beyond being satisfied, there is something so affecting the believer in his inwards that there is a flowing out. It is really testimonial, a collective testimony, is it not?
DMW Exactly, that is the idea as I understand it. This is in view of the testimony, in view of witness here; but in order for us to fit in we have to be satisfied persons, so you get the example of the Samaritan woman. She gets her affections adjusted, she gets regulated by the Lord Himself, so there is potential for her to fit right in as a satisfied person.
AMcK So there are a number of verses as to the living water and springing up, then the man becomes a vessel too and “out of his belly shall flow”. It is a system that is infectious.
DMW That is good, that is a very good word, infectious. Is that the way you feel about the system, the system that has been established? I am speaking about the system of blessing, the system of glory, the system of love in relationship with divine Persons, and relationships with one another, being with one another, having fellowship. These things flow out because we are intensely satisfied persons.
MGW This was the great feast and this was the great day of the feast and the Lord could say there was the formality of it but they were thirsty, is that the truth?
DMW It is. Well in chapter 14 we should at least touch that. What strikes me is that there is the contrast the Lord makes between the world and the area of the Spirit. I would say in general when the Lord Jesus refers to the world in John’s gospel, it would have application to where He ministered among the Jews and therefore would be the religious system that was dead, so that is put in contrast here. It says, “whom the world cannot receive”. So what is in mind here really is the testimony of the assembly, and the Holy Spirit is in charge of that testimony.
RB I was thinking in regard to Stephen. He says as to these ones, “ye do always resist the Holy Spirit”, Acts 7: 51. He was one who was full of the Spirit. I was thinking too in anything that we take up the Spirit is so important. Stephen and the other six who were taken up to serve tables were all full of the Holy Spirit, so would this be something that should mark us if we are to contribute to this system in any way?
DMW Indeed, I think that is helpful because they were entirely given over to it. I suppose being full of the Holy Spirit in those days especially meant they gave up everything for the system, as Stephen did and, as Mr Darby said, he was like a prototype Christian. He sets before us what is to mark persons who are livingly in that system. Today it may be slightly different but we are still given over to this and this becomes our life; Christ is our life and we find the practical working out of that among the saints.
JS This matter of the Spirit being here in charge of the testimony, that is very important for us. When the Lord personally was here I suppose the disciples looked for His direction and referred things to Him, and now He says, “another Comforter”, another One like Him. So we seek to follow the Spirit’s lead and refer to Him, do you think?
DMW I do and we can learn a lot by reading the Scriptures to see how the Lord was here among His own, His movements in relation to His own, and in relation to the Father of course, but in relation to His own, so that His support was available in the way they moved after Him and were held by Him. It helps us in understanding that another Comforter has come in a very similar way as
being in charge of the testimony to help us, support us and maintain us in the testimony.
JS This is really very important for us, because we may have certain ideas about how things may go and so on, but it is a matter of how the Spirit is directing things practically as being in charge of the testimony. Would that come out in what He says to the assemblies?
DMW Yes, that is helpful indeed. We are looking for the development in our souls of what we read in the Scriptures. Revelation 2 and 3 must come in a fresh sense for how we adjust ourselves, and how we get on in the testimony because He is the Spirit of truth. In Matthew 16, the Lord said “hades’ gates shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16: 18), speaking of the assembly. The Spirit is always leading into the assembly; He may have to work negatively so that there is self-judgment, but He wants us to walk in relation to Him so that He keeps us on the right path, not thinking in terms of flesh and blood. There may be things that have to be adjusted, but the idea is that He is leading into the assembly. He is leading into God’s eternal sphere and to be there in a spiritual way. It is the water and the Spirit; it goes back to the beginning but carries right through. He is always leading into the assembly as I understand it.
ALMcK He says, “that he may be with you for ever”; is that a comfort to us?
DMW It certainly is a comfort to us; I do not know whether I can say too much about it except it occurs to me that the assembly is such a great vessel, and the personnel of the assembly are vessels to be reckoned with, that it seems the Spirit is required eternally. I do not want to be fanciful.
GBG Does this also “for ever” involve that it is for ever as long as the testimony is here the Spirit will be needed. I think what you say is right, the Spirit will be with us eternally. That is the truth I think.
DMW That is helpful because what we have been considering is that He is in charge. The testimony is so great that whatever man might think of it, or we might think of it, this is still morally the greatest day that ever was or ever will be and it is proven because of the presence of the Spirit being with us and in charge in the testimonial sphere; and, I would say, great because of the opposition of the flesh in us, and outside of us the opposition in the world and the opposition of the devil. We require the Spirit and He is in charge and He will bring the greatest thing through to completion.
GBG There is not exactly the same public demonstration that there was in the beginning of the Acts, but inwardly everything is vital in the Spirit and that is what the testimony really is.
DMW Quite so. The thing itself was there in the beginning and the Spirit was there; the opening up of the truth of Christ and the assembly of course was in relation primarily to Paul’s ministry. Now here we are at the end and these things should coalesce with us. The thing itself should be there and the teaching should be there in our hearts.
MGW Do you think there is a rather sweet touch here with persons who are going to come very readily into the benefit of those who love the Lord and keep His word, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”? That takes us down to the very simplest of believers who love the Lord Jesus and who want to do what He says.
DMW So that the Lord is looking to confide in us, and the Spirit is available and ready to help us as we are proving that confidence. But, it must be as the Spirit directs in the testimony, and as He gives us the inward sense that we are engaged in something very great; we cannot trifle with it really, because He is in charge.
Reading at Dundee
19 August 2004
KEY TO INITIALS
Rodney Brown
A. L. McKay
J. A. Walker
A. P. Grant
J. M. Macfarlane
D. M. Welch
G. B. Grant
J. Strachan
M. G. Wood
A. McKay