RESULTS FROM EXERCISE

2 Samuel 24: 1, 8-25; Romans 16: 16,17

H.J.G. We might seek the Lord's help to go over together this experience of David and of Israel and to trace the same route in our own souls, the route that David went in self-judgment and in being subject to and directed by the prophetic word. What comes through is the offering, the burnt-offerings and peaceofferings, what David is able to rise to. He rises to a burnt-offering - the greatness in type of the person of Christ, the perfect One, the perfect Man, the perfect offering of Himself, God's will in perfection; then the peace-offering, what is known among the people, and then what is reached through to - "Jehovah was propitious to the land". A similar touch is "Salute one another" in Romans. I believe it is something that is needed at the present time that each of us might have these exercises that God would be able to use to bring in prosperity among His people. If we come out of these exercises as David did we will bring in prosperity in our localities and that will also bring in prosperity among the brethren in a general way.

J.A.P. A brother in preaching on Lord's day spoke of the sin-offering which was offered in the place of the burnt-offering; it was offered in the same place. Is the sin-offering involved in David's remark, "I have sinned", and then the peace-offering? Are all these offerings here then?

H.J.G. Yes, I think they are. We may not want to be too fixed about it but I believe the problem here was some aspect of pride. It obviously was so with David. It says "the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel''; that is, it was really Israel that God had the occasion against and He uses David to work out this exercise to His own end. David had to come to it, that he had sinned. So that in every matter, our side in failure - man's side really - requires that we be humbled so that Christ is exalted, whatever the offering is. Do you think so?

J.A.P. Yes. Perhaps you had more to say about the burnt-offering and the peace-offering; what do these offerings mean?

H.J.G. I thought we might get to that as we trace through the exercise that David had. They would be the presentation of Christ; the burnt-offering is really the highest offering, all that can be found in a spiritual way as to the greatness of the person of Christ; and the peace-offering is, as I understand it, fellowship with one another, such as we are having today, and we need to be broadened in our affections about that. But I thought we might trace the way of the experience that David had.

G.D.P. In relation to Israel it says "When thou shalt take the sum of the children of Israel according to those of them that are numbered, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul to Jehovah on their being numbered, that there be no plague among them on their being numbered" Exod 30: 11,12. Do you think that might enter into this numbering at the end of Samuel?

H.J.G. That was the numbering that God ordered and that He was pleased with. This was not that, this was not part of what God was doing but was pride in David's heart, was it not?

G.D.P. I am sure that is right, but I was thinking of the people too in relation to numbering in the section read. Every man was supposed to give a ransom for his soul and they seem to have overlooked that and this plague came about.

H.J.G. That is good. One of the things that I had in mind about this is that, although it is a sorrowful experience for David, finally he gives a lead. The scripture you bring in would have a bearing on it; we are very tested as to whether we move in the truth. How defined, we would have to say, God's word to us is! Think of the Lord saying that man shall live by every word that proceeds from God's mouth (see Matt 4: 4). It is very testing, is it not? One of the things that causes so much trouble is that we get an idea in our mind and think that is the way things are to be, but if we allow the word of God to search us we may find they are not to be that way.

H.W.K. Do you think that God knew David thoroughly and allowed him to go quickly through the matter of judging sin? The sin of pride and the sin of lust were the two things that David had to judge, were they not? They are innate in every man and God would have us have a judgment of them and then we become usable by Him.

H.J.G. I think that is good. God knew David; He said as to him: "who shall do all my will", Acts 13: 22. So can we say something like that? Is that characteristic of us? That would be the test if we are going to put ourselves into this exercise.

C.F.D. God uses David in working out the detail of what He intends to get through to, but David emerges as the kind of man that he really was; he not only says that he had sinned but he has feelings for the people and affection for them. He gets through to, I have sinned, I have committed the iniquity, but then he says, But these sheep, what have they done? He took the onus of the whole thing on himself, did he not?

H.J.G. Yes he did; that is what I was thinking about in this section. But that when there are problems - and there usually are some - it is very easy to isolate yourself from the problem and say, Well, that is his problem, or, That is their problem; and it seems as though we can almost say, I think I have the answer. In that kind of thinking there is something of pride whereas what David brings out is that he is prepared to judge himself and to feel for the people and to get through to the end of the thing under the direction of the prophetic word to bring in this prosperity.

C.F.D. In the end it is the prophetic word that governs, that brings in the light, does it not? You can have authority in the way that God might move but what is prophetic brings in the light as to the situation and David is fully amenable to that.

H.J.G. I think it is wonderful. His arriving at it was not too fast; it says it was nine months and twenty days but finally his heart smote him. And then it says "And when David arose in the morning"; what he went through in that night! And then the prophetic word comes in. God in His faithfulness brings it in. It says "the word of Jehovah came to the prophet Gad David's seer". We have had ministry about "David's seer". Have you a seer? I think it is something we could question ourselves about, have we a seer?

L.MacF. So the need of the moment is to take on responsibility. I think it is the answer to a good deal of our problems. In my spirit I take on the responsibility before God, and then, do you think, God will come in for us as we are in this attitude of mind and spirit?

H.J.G. That the brethren might be helped and prospered, not exactly only the side that I have to own my part in what is not going well but that I might have in my heart that the brethren might be prospered, do you think?

L.MacF. I think that the attitude David takes pleases God. "These sheep", he says, "what have they done?" I have sinned: I wonder if we are saying that or are we blaming someone else.

G.H. Could you say some more about, Have I a seer?

H.J.G. It has a link with "David's heart smote him, I think. The same happened in the other occasion, when Nathan came. If we are prepared to have a good conscience, God comes very near to us and I think, in that sense, we would have a seer. God is prepared to come near to us in His word but it requires that we are prepared for it. Do you think that is right?

C,F.D. Yes I do. The brethren locally read in Luke 24 this week where you have reference to Moses and the prophets; the Lord brings that in Himself. Moses would bring the authority of the word but the prophets would bring in the opening up and the application of things for our hearts. Is it in that sense that we need the element of the seer? What the Lord opened up at that time would have been unique; who could have opened up Moses and the prophets and the things as they applied to Himself as He could? I think it is instructive that the idea of the prophet comes in because there would not only be the authority of the word to them but the prophet would have opened up its application. So what happened was that, when they got a touch further on, they immediately returned to Jerusalem; they really had the people in view in their hearts then, did they not?

H.J.G. So when we are ready for God to help us He brings before our gaze the features of Christ. That is really the antidote to any poor conditions there may be.

A.Macd. Do you think that the seer under the direction of God gets at the heart? Nathan got at David's heart, a shepherd heart. Do you not feel that we need to have our affections right? When God spoke to Job it was more a matter of his mind, do you think?

H.J.G. Yes, I understand that the heart here, in the sense in which it says "David's heart smote him" is the inward side of things. But for us it is also the conscience. Mr Darby used to go over both matters that things had to be established in the conscience and he pressed that side, and then he would also bring out that they had to be in the affections too. So a Christian could take up both things.

A.Macd. It was both in connection with Saul of Tarsus. "It is hard for thee to kick against goads" (Acts 26: 14). I would judge would be Stephen’s martyrdom which would never leave him, but then on the road to Damascus the Lord really reached his heart, did He not?

H.J.G. I think it is good to bring Saul of Tarsus in because that is a very close link with David here. That touch that Saul got there he never forgot and every bit of his energy and service went to help the Lord's people, and that is really the line David is on.

J.A.P. Would John's ministry be a seer? There is much about sight and what he saw. Does he help us as to that side?

H.J.G. Yes, and the epistle: "every one that has this hope in him purifies himself", 1 John 3: 3. John's epistles go into us deeply that way.

A.G.S. Would the Spirit of God take the place of the seer for us now?

H.J.G. Yes, that is right. I wonder if we really look at it that way. We may think that the service of the Spirit is to help us in the service of God or in a meeting like this, but we must not overlook the personal side, how He is prepared to help us in our personal exercises. I think what you bring up is good, that the Spirit really takes the place of the seer.

A.G.S. So we should rely more on the Spirit of God because He is ready and willing to help us always.

H.J.G. Ready to guide us in the truth.

C.G. There is a word on 'seer' in 1 Samuel 9: 9; "In former time in Israel, when a man went to ask counsel of God, he said, Come and let us go to the seer; for he that is now called a Prophet was in former time called a Seer". Evidently it is not the same thing.

H.J.G. All I can say about it is what I have read, that is that a prophet is somewhat more dignified. The seer is more a homely thought but what would draw very near to us. I wonder if that is not seen in this section and what has been referred to as to Nathan too, how near they draw! But it is something we can prove in the Spirit, as our brother said.

H.W.K. The prophets did not always understand what God gave them in the way of prophecy. They could speak it, but I wondered if the seer was able to help the people in the working out of what God gave in the prophetic word.

H.J.G. That is good. I think 'seer' has some link with the word 'see'.

A.R.S. Do you think there is constant need for readiness to be adjusted? The seer might bring the word but there should be with us a readiness to be adjusted. We are so much inclined to be set in what we feel is right.

H.J.G. That is one's exercise, that we might just trace this experience of David's and say to ourselves, Are we prepared for this route? are we prepared for Christ to have His place, not only honoured for what He is and for who He is but honoured too among His people in the peace-offering? Or do we just accept things that go on day after day and year after year without a concern as to prosperity among the Lord's people?

C.G. I think what you say about the dignified aspect of the prophet would be brought out in 1 Samuel 3: 20; "And all Israel, from Dan even to Beer-sheba, knew that Samuel was established a prophet of Jehovah”. “Was established' is a striking expression, it has to be recognised.

H.J.G. Yes; yet in the midst of it all conditions were not good in Israel, but the Spirit of God says that he was established a prophet.

H.W.K. Samuel in that way had a unique place as presiding over the prophets: "Samuel standing as president over them", 1 Sam 19: 20.

H.J.G. I thought here that God was not behindhand. David had had that night, his heart smote him, and it says when David arose in the morning Jehovah sent His prophet - God is not behind. One of the greatest things is to think about a goal. Locally we were reading 1 Corinthians 9 where Paul brings in different things, what his objective was in the glad tidings; to preach the glad tidings was his reward. He had a goal and he brings in about running. He was trying to get the Corinthians into that. Think how David could meet this exercise in self-judgment and God is there right away, He sent His word. It would be an encouragement to us to be prepared for things like this.

L.MacF. So it is an exercise as to how the prophetic word comes to us. Amos is asked "What seest thou?" (Amos 7: 8) and he had to say what he saw. So our vision needs to be clear in what is proceeding locally. In our localities might the prophetic word be linked with such an exercise so that God would give a word maybe to meet what might not be generally seen in a place?

H.J.G. I think so. It is like what was said about Samuel, he was established a prophet but how many really followed it up?

T.E.D. The psalm speaks of "Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name", Ps 99: 6. Is that a feature that is to be taken account of, calling upon God - a priestly matter?

H.J.G. In 1 Samuel 8 the people raised the matter that Samuel was getting old, his sons were not satisfactory and they said they wanted a king. But God was not pleased with that, they rejected Me, He says. Samuel was still there, he was still a prophet and he was still calling on God; what more did they need?

T.E.D. Is it the lack of our individual exercise before the Lord that has contributed to the low state that there might be at any given time amongst the people of God?

H.J.G. I think so. I just thought we might find some help in going over this that we might get through and rise to what David does. It is a wonderful matter that the chapter ends, the book ends, that God was propitious to the land.

A.S.H. I wanted to ask you about verse 14; "I am in a great strait: let us fall, I pray thee, into the hand of Jehovah; for his mercies are great". I wonder if I personally would take that on as to being in a great strait and that I would fall upon the mercies of Jehovah, not moving into any other area of taking the matter into my own hand but falling upon the mercies of Jehovah which are great. His loving-kindness endures for ever, the psalmist says. We want to be marked by such features, do you think?

H.J.G. Yes. We do not like to get into a great strait, we like to figure out some way to keep out of it, but I think this shows we are to be prepared for it. What a man David was! Let us fall into the hand of God for His mercies are great; but let us not fall into the hand of man. That is the problem, is it not?

A.Macd. Is that usually the test with us as to whether we grow in the knowledge of God in a crisis? He knew what it was to be in the hands of men before and evidently he has grown as a result of the exercise.

H.J.G. I think so. I suppose we are right in saying that David was getting old here. I do not know whether the chapters are necessarily chronological, but I would think he is getting well on in his life. What prosperous times there were in the reign of David! From Dan to Beer-sheba what prosperity there was! Then these calamities come in. How he would feel that as being an older man! It would bear in upon him. But too I think it brings out what he is. As we have had referred to already, God knew David.

T.E.D. In the final result it is not the word of the king prevailing but God's word spoken by the king, is it not?

H.J.G. Is that not good - God's word? "The word of Jehovah came to the prophet Gad", and then it goes on, "And Gad came that day to David, and said to him, Go up, rear an altar to Jehovah". I think there is something special in that. There is the one side in which God would bring forcibly before us what the situation is and the need in it, that is the need of self judgment and to be with Him about the situation; but then we get this: "Gad came that day to David, and said to him, Go up, rear an altar to Jehovah". I think that is more of an exercise. What can we reach through to? God has His place among His people and the people are ready for the peace- offering.

T.E.D. It gets to what is for God in a matter, does it not?

C.F.D. And does David's own relationship with God shine? He says "neither will I offer up to Jehovah my God burnt-offerings without cost ". Then there are the fifty shekels of silver. I was thinking of the expression 'm y God'.

L.MacF. So the building should go on, what is constructive, despite state and all that has come in. Do you think that those who are privileged to serve should be encouraged to keep to what is constructive? Paul says his ministry was for building up.

H.J.G. Yes I think so. The Lord delights in His people.

C.G. It says "And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them saying, Go, number Israel and Judah"; in 1 Chronicles 21: 1 it says "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel". I have often wondered about that; here in Samuel we have Jehovah moving David to number the people and in Chronicles Satan stood up against Israel and moved David. Do you have anything in mind about those two verses, practically the same thing?

H.J.G. God's occasion was against Israel because of their state and He used Satan; God can do that. But still David accepts what took place, he accepts the failure in himself. He has to go through the experience of having to go down; the people needed to go down but David has to go through the experience to help them. That is something we need to think about. We may say there is this and there is that, if only that brother or that sister could get some help, but I think we had better go through this experience of David's ourselves.

H.W.K. We really cannot help anyone unless we are willing to be identified with the persons we are seeking to help. Persons who are going on with sin are not able to judge it as not having a knowledge of the sin. It says "by law is knowledge of sin" (Rom 3: 20); that is as you have light you are able to judge sin. David had light from God and God uses him in a remarkable way here to take on the responsibility of the sins of the people, not only what he had committed himself. We are in those times now, do you not feel? We are not to be aloof from those we seek to help and serve but be identified with them. The Lord Himself is the supreme example; He was identified with men in His baptism.

H.J.G. I think it is good to bring that up. Daniel, too, confessed his sins and the sins of the people (see Dan 9: 20).

G.H. You mentioned about the importance of the word of God coming in to help us. I was going to ask you about the well-known section in Hebrews 4: "For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit" (v 12). 'Soul' would be the feeling side and 'the spirit' the intelligent side. But then it says "both of joints and marrow": what do you understand by that?

H.J.G. I do not know whether I can say very much except that what it points out is that it reaches in deeply and defines things, and we really do not get the gain of that unless we go down like David did. The word of God is the word of God. You might say that that is an abstract statement; it is always that but it may not be that for me.

G.H. As to joints and marrow, the blood stream has a lot to do with the marrow, the blood would indicate life. I wonder whether there would be something in that.

H.J.G. I think there is, because life is needed among the brethren.

G.H. That word 'operative' is a remarkable expression. In the King James translation it says 'powerful', but 'operative' is a very fine word, operative in the whole being by the Spirit.

J.A.P. The remark made earlier about what was constructive should encourage us particularly in regard to the peace-offering which is the practical enjoyment of fellowship; currently there is sorrow amongst us as to fellowship; what interferes with it is sin somewhere. The pattern here is helpful as to how we may get through to fellowship; not just to say, 'I have made a mistake', if I have, 'but I have been wrong'; that helps the brethren too, that is very constructive. The flesh says, Do not admit anything. Men in the world will not admit anything but in Christianity we have to say, I have sinned. It is hard to do.

H.J.G. Yes, we know that. But God keeps at the prophetic word; Gad came again and said, Go up, rear an altar. It is not without point that this all happened at Araunah's threshing-floor. The sovereignty of God shows itself in Araunah; and he had everything needed. When God does things He shows that He has a moral basis for what He does, and here Araunah says "see here are oxen for the burnt-offering, and the threshing-sledges and implements of the oxen for wood." He says, Here they are, you can have them all. What sovereignty and what work of God in a man in the midst of this! And yet David is going through the exercise. How it would affect him to see this in Araunah! But David is going to pay for it nevertheless. I think it goes back to the exercise raised about Exodus 30, that there is to be a ransom.

L.MacF. Why is an altar involved in this crisis? Is it a question of approach? David came to it earlier that it is to be in the due order.

H.J.G. David would not forget that he had to come by the due order, he would know how to act when he was told to make an altar. So we should know how to act. So we come back to the matter of the Spirit, how are we going to know what to do? You can go to the books and you can listen to somebody else who might tell you, but finally you have to go to the Spirit to know how to act.

C.F.D. I was wondering whether now the approach to God is not secured on the principle of self-judgment and if this is not something that the Lord is raising with us currently and constantly, that our approach individually and our approach collectively into the service of God has to be on that principle.

H.J.G. Two things are raised in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11: "Let a man prove himself, and thus eat". We are to go on, we are to judge ourselves and go on with the great things of God. But then we are also to judge ourselves so that there might be fellowship with one another in a right way. Does that help?

C.F.D. Very much so, because if that principle is operating I can sit down with my brethren rightly; as we have been helped to see, the first thing we do as we assemble is to greet each other. We sit down together as disciples or brethren and if this principle is operating amongst us our assembling will be according to the mind of God.

H.J.G. That is what I thought we might see in this that David made the sacrifice; he followed the direction of the prophetic word, he made the sacrifice, he paid the fifty shekels of silver, he built the altar but he offered up burnt-offerings and peace-offerings. Really for us it is what have we arrived at and what we set on among the brethren. We feel what has been raised about the matter of fellowship; so what can I do to help in that situation? I think David shows us here there is something in the way that he builds this altar; and offers burnt-offerings and peace-offerings. That would help us to see how it can be done. And then God was propitious to the land.

T.E D. Is this not a touch of glory shining at the close which God delights in? One has read this week how God watches over His discipline to see how it works in the saints to produce glory. This seems to be an example of that.

J.C.P. Do you think Satan moved in against David because he got away from God? Here David turns back to God and Jehovah blessed the discipline He brought upon Israel. ls it not so that, when we are away from God, Satan moves in?

H.J.G. That is right, very subtly too; little by little he gets a foothold in you. But David is smitten; he says, Let us not fall into the hands of man; he trusted in God.

L.MacF. So is the sacrificial side to be noted? You raised the question as to the help we are locally, what we are to the brethren. Is it on the principle of sacrifice?

H.J.G. I think so. So you do not sit on the platform and tell everybody what to do, do you? Not that we are to depreciate those whom God helps in serving the saints, we are not to do that, but "I am in the midst of you as the one that serves" (Luke 22: 27) is how things have been set on.

A.Macd. Was Araunah like a son of consolation and would he himself understand what the peace-offering meant? He would be like that brother who took Paul and introduced him to the brethren, spoke well of him and then was able to recede into the background.

H.J.G. It is almost as though he says to David, I have just been waiting for you to come to this.

H.W.K. The Lord had a basis to be propitious to the people, did He not, because of what David set up? It was the setting up of an established relationship with God so that God could come out in blessing. Is that not what we want at the present time?

H.J.G. I think it is. We have concerns and we would that certain things were settled, but how is it going to be? We just have to make a basis for God to bring in this propitiousness.

C.F.D. I believe there is a point in your previous remark as to Araunah that all the resources were within his reach; all the resources - coming into the mind of God and a righteous approach to God, the propitious line of things - are all within our reach in the assembly and in the locality. It is all within our reach and the thing is are we availing ourselves of it? David did; he set on a good lead.

H.J.G. That is one of the things I was thinking about; David was the king, he was a type of Christ, he was God's king and therefore it was God's mind that he should give a lead in Israel; and so here he is again giving a lead - a wonderful man. But does it not get down to each one of us? I might say, Well, I do not know very much and I have never had any great part among the brethren, but each brother and sister, even the youngest here breaking bread can give a lead in something for God, can they not?

C.F.D. Yes they can. And Araunah might not have been well known locally but when it came to this particular issue he was the one who had everything under his hand. I believe that the word of God comes in prophetically, and not only on Tuesday (one of the places we should look for it is in the preaching of the word of God, that is where we would look for the power of it to come in peculiarly) and it would all have in view the approach to God; that is the final thought, is it not, that the preaching of the word has in mind?

H.J.G. It is right that there should be the prophetic word in the preaching. It is an exercise to have that, not just to speak the terms of the gospel but to have a prophetic touch in it.

A.S.H. Araunah even went further - if it is right to say that; he says "see, here are oxen for the burntoffering, and the threshing-sledges and implements". Is he not adding a further thought? He is really free in the movement, free with the king, and he has everything that would make this matter complete.

H.J.G. He is not holding anything back. Then finally he says "Jehovah thy God accept thee"; he is right in line with what God is doing.

A.S.H. I feel that we sometimes need that. We hold back, I feel that for myself. Our brother just spoke as to the gospel, we have some who will not take it on. Some of us cannot say much but we need to get sharpened and take on the matter. It is a vital thing.

H.J.G. I think most of us would have to say Amen to that.

S.E.H. What did you have in mind in Araunah saying "Jehovah thy God accept thee"? Does it go beyond God's acceptance of the offerings?

H.J.G. I think it is just that Araunah knew the need of a man being accepted in God's presence. Is that not part of what we are speaking about? You can look at things objectively and say, There is this problem and this is the word that applies, and so on, but really with a priest it is a question of his acceptance in the presence of God, and everything will work out from that.

H.W.K. In the very beginning of Scripture God looked on Abel and his offering (see Gen 4: 4) and it goes right through.

H.J.G. That is good.

J.A.P. Acceptance is the burnt-offering, is it not, the glory of Christ? and I am accepted in Him.

C.F.D. That is perfectly right, that is what a man is in Christ, yet the side of responsibility comes home to us very much from our own side as to God having a right to look at us. And you are challenged, at least I am, as to the question of approach to God. I believe that that is a very real thing for us because we can become very casual as to our approach to God but God is not casual about it.

H.J.G. I just thought that we might be helped to think about these things so that we might get this objective. God's intent, and what David fulfilled, was the building of this altar and the offering of these offerings, and God was propitious to the land. In Romans where we read I thought there was a further touch to that; "Salute one another with a holy kiss". That is really fellowship in a full way and a right way, is it not?

C.F.D. Is "Salute one another with a holy kiss" the way we are to assemble? If we are in the good of the peace-offering we will be able to greet and embrace the brethren as we assemble. That is one of the final thoughts that Mr Taylor left with us, as you remember, and it is certainly one that I believe tests us in our localities at the present time.

G,H. What is prophetic is not merely the preaching of the gospel but, as Mr Taylor brought out helpfully, it is the preaching of the word of God, which would involve teaching. You get the sense that you have to be ready for what is prophetic to come in in view of that.

H.J.G. It is good to be reminded of that; it is the preaching of the word of God and it gives the preacher plenty of scope. The glad tidings covers everything.

G.H. It would involve teaching and also in the word of God to be ready for a prophetic touch coming in.

H.J.G. That is right. And the gospel makes way for a special appeal in that way. It is a little different from the ministry meeting in the sense that the gospel is an appeal, an appeal to our affections, and if there is something not right it seems to get at it. It comes at you in a little different way from the prophetic word in the ministry meeting.

G.H. It says that God would have all men to be saved, that is one side; but then it says, and come to the knowledge of the truth (see 1 Tim 2: 4). That would involve teaching.

H.J.G. Yes.

L.MacF. There is a salutation here. It says of Joseph's brethren they could not greet him with friendliness (see Gen 37: 4). We have to see what is the cause of that. I do not think we enter into what is in Romans if what is personal is not judged.

H.J.G. Judah judged it and it made a basis for the friendliness to obtain again. Did you have more in mind?

L.MacF. We are in a sphere to get help and I trust that we will get help as we are speaking, for the Spirit is speaking. Am I greeting my brethren with friendliness or is there reserve?

S.E.H. Is there a side that goes beyond that also, because even after Judah's confession, after Jacob died there was still a suspicion that remained that had to be overcome?

H.J.G. I think if we are honest we know something about that. It is quite a crucial thing that there is not to be that. The Lord has made the basis for that all to be cleared and when we come and sit down at the Supper it is to be clear.

J.A.P. And in a wider sense all the assemblies of Christ. Can we say that in this country? We would like to have that.

H.J.G. Well, that is a concern and I trust what we have been going over might reach a point with some of us that we might get before the Lord as to how we can help things. Paul put every effort into helping the brethren. Scripture is full of the spirit of how things are to be; like it is here: "Salute one another with a holy kiss. All the assemblies of Christ salute you". A lot of these expressions of Paul's are really not doctrine but they are in the power of the Spirit of God to promote prosperity among the brethren.

T.E.D. You read verse 17 also; I would have to consider what in me might create a division, what element might lead divisively amongst God's people; whereas if I understood the feelings in the heart of God, what the people are to Him, that would help me in my feelings for my brethren, would it not?

H.J.G. I think so. Oh that we might get something of the spirit of these men who have helped in the testimony! not only these two that we have been reading of, Paul and David, but we could do well to get something of the spirit of those who have helped even within our memory.

C.F.D. This is quite strong. Would it show that the creating of divisions amongst the saints is contrary to the mind of God. "And occasions of falling": we would have to test ourselves as to whether we have contributed to that in any way, "occasions of falling, contrary to the doctrine which ye have learnt". You would say that what Paul is bringing in here is quite strong but it is the word of God. He says, turn away from such persons. I think we might underestimate God's own feelings and judgment as to the introduction of what is divisive.

H.J.G. We might, because we have something of what David and Israel had, some point of pride, that we like to think that the line we are on is the right way, but he says here "turn away", really turn your ear away and do not follow that road.

J.A.P. "By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting" (v 18). One of the current things is that people say, We are Christians. We all would respect that, and the test is really the sincerity of that. It is a fair speech, I am a Christian.

H.J.G. What we are together today lies behind the way we gather tomorrow morning. We are to do things on the basis of being "with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart", 2 Tim 2: 22. That is what you are speaking about, is it not? A pure heart involves that things are laid open before God and that we have a right judgment of these things that have been mentioned.

C.G. Hebrews 12 would relate to not having divisions; "Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord: watching lest there be anyone who lacks the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it" (vv 14,15). Do you not think that is a good passage to bear in mind as we come together in a general way?

H.J.G. Yes, the operation of grace is a wonderful thing. We need to do all we can to keep it operating. Grace meets the situation, law does not meet it, legality does not meet it, grace meets it. But still God intends it to be met; He meets it in His word and His word would always have that side of grace. In Christianity I think it would always be so that grace is in the word. "Salute one another with a holy kiss"; grace meets the reservation.

G.C.G. Joseph said to his brethren "Come near to me", Gen 45: 4.

H.J.G. That is this; "Salute one another". And do not go back to the old thing.

G.F.D. While it is spiritual it is none the less real that I should be able to greet every brother and every sister. If we cannot do that how can we merge in the loaf?

H.J.G. That has to be the objective. If something is hindering it I trust we can get some help to get through to that objective.

 

PLAINFIELD

27 March 1982

 

Key to initials

C.F.Dadd, Plainfield; T.E.Druckenmiller, Plainfield; C.C.Gill, New York; C.Greenidge, Plainfield; H.J.Glass, Toronto; A.S.Hinkson, New York; G.Hesterman, Plainfield; S.E.Hesterman, Plainfield; H.W.Knauss, Indianapolis; A.Macdonald, New York; L.MacFarlane, New York; G.D.Pfingst, Plainfield; J.A.Petersen Plainfield; J.C.Petersen, Plainfield; A.G.Spooner, New York; A.R.Stevens, New York