Reading 2
A.J.G. When we come to chapter 16, we will see that the Lord puts questions to the disciples about these two occasions when He fed the crowds, as if they have a particular importance for our teaching. We have need of nothing outside of what we have in Christ: all is in Christ on high and in the Spirit down here. The fact that the five thousand have been fed in chapter 14 has Christ on high in view, the whole administration being in His hands. The Lord looks up to heaven, the whole chapter having in view the teaching of the disciples and Peter in particular as being an example of a disciple. In chapter 15, the four thousand have been fed. In this case, it is not said that the Lord had looked up to heaven; it is rather a question of what is done down here in virtue of the power of the Spirit, but it is simply a different point of view. On one side, the Lord has said (Matt 28: 18) that all power has been given to Him in heaven and on earth; so the saints are made entirely independent of secular support; then in virtue of the power of the Spirit, we are rendered entirely independent of all that is religious. Chapter 14 begins with Herod who was the civil power of the moment, and chapter 15 with the scribes and Pharisees who were the religious leaders of that time, and the two occasions where the crowds have been fed confirm that with Christ we are entirely independent of all support that comes from man or from man’s religion. The authorities may be favourable to the saints, and so far as that is so we can give thanks to God, and we can also pray for them, but we never have to rely on them. The beginning of chapter 14 shows that the position suddenly changes, a birthday and a dance are enough to change the situation. John is beheaded without delay; the position has changed unexpectedly, very suddenly, but that becomes an occasion to learn for the disciples, and for Peter in particular. There is a path of faith which is provided, and one finds that the Lord is enough in this path. In both cases, there is what the disciples had seen to be a very small thing; in one, five loaves and a few small fishes; and in the other, seven loaves and some small fishes, but in one case and other, it was enough, and we see what has been gathered afterwards. In one case, there are twelve hand baskets, and in the other, seven baskets full.
P.P. Why this difference?
A.J.G. I think that the first occasion has in view administration in men’s hands and we learn that all that is necessary is found in the hands of Christ: twelve hand baskets full has administration in view. All that is necessary is in the hands of Christ, while the seven baskets full would indicate for us the needs of the saints, all these being available in the power of the Spirit down here.
P.C. When we consider the bread, we think of Christ, do we not? And what are we to think of when we consider the fishes?
A.J.G. Although Christ is always the food for His people, we always need this fresh touch that brings in the Spirit. I believe that the fish represent the resources that God has in reserve. It is not possible to count the fish: they are in the sea; they represent the unlimited resources in the Spirit. So it is always Christ who is the food of His people, but one must always recognise that there is this touch of the Spirit which will be brought in at the required moment.
E.J.S. In John, we see a little boy who has five barley loaves and two fishes; they gathered up twelve hand baskets, but nothing is said of the fishes. Is that because Christ as food is rather the subject of this chapter?
A.J.G. In John, He is the bread of life. It is to be noticed that in every case related by the evangelists, there is always bread and fishes, and then there is what is gathered. There is no meeting that exhausts the subject; one can always gather something afterwards.
L.M. In one case and the other, they are fragments that are gathered, while the things that were given are whole: five loaves and two fishes.
A.J.G. The important point is that nothing is to be lost; there is always what can be gathered after one has appropriated what is necessary for the moment. Do you not think that would encourage us to meditate on what we have had, because there is always more than can be appropriated at the moment?
P.C. In Nehemiah, we see in a certain circumstance that there are portions that are sent.
A.J.G. They would not have been able to do that if they had not gathered the fragments that were left. I believe that it is interesting to see that the five thousand are fed in the presence of the attitude of Herod, and the four thousand in the presence of the attitude of the scribes and Pharisees, so that we have to be established very clearly in the feeling that, having Christ, we are made entirely independent of every human support—whether it is secular or religious.
P.P. In chapter 14: 13, it is said that Jesus withdrew, and also in chapter 15: 21.
A.J.G. I believe the Lord is teaching His disciples to withdraw.
R.B. Why does it not distinguish the bread and the fish in the fragments that are left?
A.J.G. Because it is a whole; it is one and the same meal one could say. We need to have these two thoughts which relate to Christ and the Spirit, but then what is administered is one and the same thing. It is striking to see that the epistle to the Colossians establishes this teaching. In chapter 1, it is said that there are thrones and lordships, or authorities; all has been by Him and for Him; and in chapter 2, He is the Head of all principality and power. That makes us independent of all human support. It is also said that in Him all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily and that we are complete in Him. That shows us that in Christ we have everything that is needed spiritually.
P.C. Have you a thought about the fact that the men are numbered and not the women and children?
A.J.G. It could be because the character of man is especially in view in Matthew. It is a matter of being able to stand in the presence of the gates of hades and that would necessitate what is manifested in the character of man. That does not signify that it is a matter of brothers to the exclusion of sisters. The epistle to the Corinthians goes along with the gospel of Matthew and at the end of the first epistle, the apostle says: “quit yourselves like men; be strong”. This is what is in view in the gospel of Matthew.
P.C. Could the thought of administration be linked with that?
A.J.G. Yes, exactly.
P.G.B. Why in the first case are the crowds sat down on the grass, while in the second case, they are sat on the ground?
A.J.G. I believe that in chapter 15, they are more dependent on what comforts naturally. In chapter 14, the Lord gives the command to the crowds to be seated on the grass, but in chapter 15, they have already stayed with him for three days, so that there is a certain progression, the crowds have already accepted the three days, the full lesson relating to death. The Lord has been three days and three nights in the heart of the earth; the three days would suggest the full acceptance of the thought of death and that is necessary so that we should have the full gain of what Christ is for us spiritually.
E.J.S. Do we have in the five loaves the thought of weakness and the necessity of dependence on Christ, and in the seven loaves the thought of fulness?
A.J.G. I believe that they are the two sides which are in view. The five loaves testify to us about the smallness of what we have, but the seven loaves relate to the fulness and the sufficient character of what we possess in Christ, so that if someone avails themselves of the Lord and if he does so suitably, he may not enter into service in the feeling that he is at the height of this service, but recognising that the Spirit is down here, he can feel that he is able in Christ to face each occasion by the Spirit.
P.A.N. You have spoken of progress in chapter 15. Are the four thousand not marked by this progress as having a universal bearing?
A.J.G. Yes indeed. But it is remarkable to see all that the Lord has in view in this passage as instruction for the disciples. So in chapter 14: 22, we read that immediately after He had fed the five thousand, He constrained them to go up into the ship and to go before to the other side; that is to say, there is now another experience. It is a matter of knowing the Lord in a new way. It is really the application of their experience with the multitude in new conditions. Peter is invited to go forward in the path of faith. The Lord is seen as walking on the waters; He is superior to all the conditions and difficulties or opposition, but the important point is to know if we are ourselves. Peter had to learn to walk on the waters. Our brother made reference earlier to 2 Timothy 2 where it says to pursue righteousness, faith, love; these are the first things that have to be pursued. Righteousness, what is right in God’s eyes. If we pursue that, we may be led to face opposition and it may be that there is no visible solution. This is what faith implies. It is a matter of moving in a position and of being maintained there where there is no apparent solution. It is important to learn that and to maintain it so that the truth of the assembly may be known.
P.A.N. On the subject of faith, it is said to Peter, “O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?” and it is said to the Canaanitish woman, “O woman, thy faith is great”.
A.J.G. The woman’s faith was in that she recognised the truth about herself, but she also recognised the availability of grace. There is no doubt that the woman had recognised her daughter’s condition, which manifested her own moral condition; she recognised that, taking her place, the place of a dog.
The Lord only gives Peter a single word; He says, “Come. And Peter, having descended from the ship, walked upon the waters to go to Jesus”. It is important to note that well. We are sometimes occupied with what Peter is thinking, but the important point is that Peter walked on the waters to go to Jesus.
R.G.W. That is to say, he did it; therefore he could do it.
A.J.G. He did it. That illustrates the second principle on which we must move; that is to say faith. It is a matter of pursuing righteousness, faith. It may be that at first this does not have much appeal to the young, because they see what is established in the circle of the brethren and they desire to join it; but the important point is that you do not join something that is established, so to say, but that your movements should be governed by faith; first by righteousness, then by faith, the Lord being the only support for the position. There are others who can engage in the same direction and we have to move together with them; and it is on these lines that thoughts about the truth of the assembly are realised. When tests come, they must manifest if we have the Lord before us, as we move in faith.
E.J.S. Would the epistle to the Hebrews help us in being marked more by faith in fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Leader and Completer of faith?
A.J.G. When the Lord sent the disciples at the end of Matthew, He said to them, “All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth”. That makes an appeal to faith; there is nothing visible, but faith grasps that and the Lord is always faithful to faith.
H.C. Could we have something more on the thought of righteousness?
A.J.G. That implies what is right in God’s eyes, so that everything must be tested by this thought: is this or that right in God’s eyes? It might be something religious, or contrary to the Scriptures, then it is not right. It is the same in our affairs, or in our home life, it is what is right in God’s eyes. It is the first principle that governs the Christian life. That is presented to us in 2 Timothy 2 as being the means to go out from what is religious, being governed by what is right. You feel the necessity of leaving certain things, and even those upon which you have been able to rely, and this brings you immediately into the feeling of faith. Peter had to leave the ship; he actually left it, he left what might have held him and he walked on the waters to go to Jesus. That happened in the fourth watch of the night. It is then that the Lord came to the disciples and that links especially with the present time.
P.P. There would be a connection between the fourth watch of the night and the present time?
A.J.G. That is what I thought. It is the last watch of the night; it is just the moment when the night is on the point of ending, the day is going to appear. But the Lord has allowed that there should be a long night of spiritual darkness in the history of the assembly. Now we come to the fourth watch and He makes an appeal to the saints so that they should be set in movement with faith so that all the truth of the assembly should actually be realised.
E.J.S. He is already coming to us, but soon He will come for us.
R.G.W. Is it not remarkable that the disciples say it is an apparition? Would you say something about that?
A.J.G. That indicates, I believe, that we are slow to grasp spiritual movements, but the important point is to obey. One often hears say that people have insufficient faith to commit to the path, but the important point is to obey, and when you obey, you find the power to go on. The Lord only says one word to Peter: “Come”. It is characteristic of the way in which Matthew presents the truth. The Lord gives a brief commandment.
P.A.N. Peter says before, “command me”. He feels that he has to have that.
A.J.G. Exactly; and the second epistle to Timothy relates to the Lord’s commandments, this is what governs the position of the saints currently; while what Matthew 15 presents is more testing for us. It is the entire putting aside of ourselves, of the first man. The scribes and Pharisees were marked by what was outward, with the importance of hand washing, and the Lord shows that what defiles man is not what goes into his mouth but what goes out. The disciples say to the Lord, “Dost thou know that the Pharisees, having heard this word, have been offended?” The whole religious world around us recognises the first man and has in view his amelioration or something that derives from him, but the Lord shows in His teaching that he is entirely corrupt. I have no doubt that we accept this as correct truth, but it is a matter of knowing if we have really grasped the teaching of the cross so that place might be made for Christ alone and that we derive everything from Christ: intelligence, character, impulses, all must be derived from Christ. It is that which gives the character of the assembly and which marks it distinctly as being different from all that is around us. Satan seeks to undo that.
E.J.S. In Christendom, it is taught not only that the leaven represents something good, but also that the Lord out of death is a spirit. And in Luke the disciples are troubled when the Lord presents Himself as a risen Man.
A.J.G. That is another thing we have really to grasp, that He is a real Man. So it is said that in Him all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily and we are complete in Him. He is a Spirit, for the last Adam is a quickening spirit, but He is nevertheless a Man in whom all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily.
J.B. Have you the thought of putting aside the old man and of the life of faith when Paul says to the Galatians, “I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me”, Gal 2: 20.
A.J.G. Yes, you have the principle there: I am crucified with Christ, that is to say that the apostle accepts his own crucifixion, and he says, “and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me”. So far as Paul was concerned, it was the way in which he held himself as being one in whom Christ had to be maintained livingly. The most distinct truth of the present time, that is to say the day of the Spirit, is that the assembly is the body of Christ. What Paul had arrived at for himself is the divine thought for the assembly.
So, after the Lord had exposed what the heart of man is in chapter 15, we then have the Canaanitish woman whose daughter was cruelly tormented by a demon. At first, she is found on bad ground because she appeals to the Lord as Son of David. A Canaanite has no right at all to the Son of David. But the Lord acts and so to say puts her in a state of despair, so that she says, “Lord, help me”. He tests her and she responds to the test, taking the place of a dog. I believe that is what the Lord is referring to when He says, “O woman, thy faith is great”. We see what we are according to the flesh. This is what the Lord exposes in this chapter. Now that leads us to cast ourselves upon Christ, and we realise how we are dependent from then on upon the Spirit.
P.P. So the attitude of this woman would help us to judge ourselves?
A.J.G. Exactly. We learn that in the assembly. There is not the least possibility in ourselves, but one recognises that there is sufficient in Christ for every need.
P.P. Mephibosheth could take the place of a dead dog at David’s feet, and then we find him at the king’s table.
A.J.G. That is a good example, a dead dog.
The great matter is that we should be living; there must be something living, although it may appear very small.
In the two cases in which the crowds are fed, the Lord casts the disciples on what they have. This would be an encouragement for us. Although things may often be small in our localities, we have at least some appreciation of Christ and we have the Spirit with us, if only we can make room for Him. He acts on the principle of faith, so we find that there is enough for each occasion.
P.A.N. Must we be led in the assembly by this feeling of compassion which the Lord had in verse 32? The words of the Lord are very beautiful.
A.J.G. These thoughts of compassion on the Lord’s part are very striking. There is such poverty around us, and we are put to the test. We must be ready to face everything where God is working. All those with whom God is working and who have received the Holy Spirit belong to the assembly: we must be concerned that they find their place practically in the assembly. What manifests their appreciation is that they find their food there. In these two cases, it is a matter of food.
P.C. Do you think that the Lord may be served by us in the measure in which we know the provisions that there are, because the Lord puts the question: “how many loaves have ye?”?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so, and the Lord does not add to what there is in either case; what He does is to make what they have enough. It is remarkable to see the enlargement which is produced when we are dependent upon the Spirit.
L.M. That would encourage us at the prayer meeting to make it a part of our desires for food for people who are near to us? They say to the Lord that they have little.
A.J.G. Yes certainly. We need to pray for the brethren that are near to us. It may be that we are not able to do much, but we can at least pray, and if we can have the feelings of compassion that marked the Lord here, the Lord will certainly take account of them.
J.B. At the end of the gospel of Matthew, the Lord says, “behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age”. Is it this feeling that He would give us constantly in the things that are brought before us?
A.J.G. Certainly. I ask myself if we sufficiently realise, not only the fact that the Lord is with us, but that the Spirit is with us.
It is a fact that the Lord has recently raised an exercise among us about this and we must really have faith in the presence of the Spirit with us. I believe that is what is in view with the four thousand who are fed because it is a matter of the seven baskets full; that is to say, the fulness of spiritual riches. They are baskets full, which is another allusion to the Spirit.
P.C. Would that agree with 1 Corinthians 14, when the saints are together and each has something, that all may be for edification?
A.J.G. Exactly.
E.G. Why do we have the hand baskets in chapter 14 and the baskets in chapter 15?
A.J.G. It is administration in chapter 14 seen in men’s hands, not the administration of man according to man’s world, but in dependence on the Lord. In England, we have what is called the established church, and true believers who are in this church are attached to what has the king or queen as head; that is to say, they depend on royal patronage. This is entirely contrary to the teaching of chapter 14.
In chapter 15, they are baskets full. The fish are always an allusion to the unlimited resources that we have in the Spirit, in the presence of the Spirit in us. Clearly, the riches that the Spirit brings in are what we have in Christ, but it is the idea of full spiritual sufficiency. We cannot be in the gain of the assembly unless we have entire faith in the power of the Lord on the one hand to maintain us above the things that are down here; and on the other, His full sufficiency for every spiritual necessity.
L.M. In chapter 15, the Lord is not by the sea as in chapter 13, but on the mountain; the crowds come to Him and they bring with them people who are not really in the right state; the Lord faces that before feeding them.
A.J.G. I believe that the Lord’s position on the mountain in chapter 15 manifests the exercises that were there. It is said that “great crowds came to him, having with them lame, blind, dumb, crippled …”. That implies the necessity of overcoming. In Revelation 21, after bringing out all the blessing of the eternal state, it is said, “he that overcomes shall inherit these things”, as if God would say to us that all that we must have from His side must be grasped on the principle of overcoming. I believe that there was this element of overcoming here in the fact that they came to the Lord on the mountain.
E.J.S. The Lord blessed in chapter 14, and gave thanks in chapter 15.
A.J.G. I do not know that there is much difference; I believe that the thought is a bit the same.
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