THE TESTIMONY

Revelation 1: 1-7; 3: 14; 19: 9-11; 1 Corinthians 1: 4-8

D.A.B.        It is in mind to enquire together about some aspects of the testimony. It is a very big subject and it is not realistic here to try and look at all its aspects. I like to think of some of these big subjects as a cut stone or a crystal where certain aspects set off the light of the whole to the best advantage. We might seek to find those in this reading.

Before we go into the aspects that I had especially in mind I would like to divert for a moment to illustrate, from the story of Balaam in the wilderness, the value of choosing the point from which truth is viewed. We will remember that he was taken to positions at the extremity of the camp and viewed the people of God looking inwards. We sometimes take a view like that - we call it practical - but there are certain things that you do not see from that point of view. Balaam acknowledges that he did not see God. He says, "I shall see him, but not now", Num 24: 17. Nor did he see the tabernacle, although he saw the order in which the people were arranged around it. The idea of testimony is not connected so much with the camp as with the tabernacle. So we have the tables of the testimony, in the ark of the testimony, behind the veil of the testimony, in the tent of the testimony. We also have the show-bread and we have the lamp. The things that speak of testimony in that great system were at its centre where the presence of God was known. I do not think that you can work up from the view at the extremity of the camp to the standard which that sets; you have to start at the centre where the presence of God is known. I mention that by way of illustration. I did not intend to get occupied with the tabernacle system.

The three aspects that I thought we might look at are in these passages, although not one in each: they are spread across the passages we have read. The first is the great thought of the "faithful and true witness"; the second is a question about what we learn from the coming glory of the true character of the present testimony? The third is another question about what John meant when he said he was "testifying the testimony": what did the speaker in chapter 19 mean when he referred to those who "have" the testimony; what does it mean for the testimony to be confirmed in us or among us?

I hope we might begin with some conversation together about the Lord Jesus personally without being occupied with ourselves, or even with the types. I do not want to say very much about it to start with, but wonder whether we might draw out from one another some impressions about the faithful and true witness.

I make one remark to set on the enquiry. I think it is in John's gospel that the faithful and true witness is especially portrayed. He says, "I have come for witness", and "I have come into the world that I might bear witness to the truth", John 18: 37. I notice also, in looking at how common that thought is in John's writings that the word that John uses for witness has come into English as 'martyr'. There is more to martyrdom than the way they died. We might say we are not called upon to die like the martyrs, but we are called upon to live like them. Balaam said he would like to die the death of the righteous (Num 23: 10), but he had no thought to live the life of the righteous. I believe that in the Lord Jesus and in His life here, as portrayed especially in John's gospel as the faithful and true witness, we see how those who are now in testimony are meant to live. Perhaps we can come to the other thoughts later: I wondered if we could first sustain some conversation about the Lord personally and draw out what there is among the brethren in appreciation of Him.

D.J.H.        I like what you say as to John's gospel. I suppose we would see there what Paul says as to Him that, "he witnessed before Pontius Pilate the good confession", 1 Tim 6: 13. He speaks of the truth there so that Pilate says, "What is truth?", John 18: 38. It seems to be the peculiar witness in that gospel.

D.A.B.        It is very much a witness that He bears alone. He does not trust Himself to man, He does not get others to do things for Him; it is what the Lord Jesus has done Himself. There is a unique character about the testimony of Jesus personally. The testimony in the present time is of a slightly different character: the testimony of Jesus stands by itself. It is a testimony that relates especially to the Father and the revelation of His will. The Father has glorified Jesus for the testimony He rendered and, because of the testimony He rendered, God has now made Him the subject of the present testimony. I think that if we see that connection we would be drawn to enquire why it is that the Father found such delight in the life of Jesus here and in the testimony He rendered.

D.J.H.        As you said, He was to bear witness to the truth and it has been said that the truth is the revelation of God. That was there in Jesus in all its perfection because of who He was, yet coming into expression in the blessed Man.

D.A.B.        It was complete, and in a sense self-contained. It is very wonderful to take account of the way the life of Jesus is to be seen as a witness to all that God sought to be known.

E.C.B.        In the verse which has been referred to, Jesus says, "I have been born for this, and for this I have come into the world, that I might bear witness to the truth" (John 18:37), as if the truth has in mind the totality of what He came to express both in relation to God towards man, and man towards God.

D.A.B.        That is what I was thinking. We do not have an account of the nativity in John's gospel, but he refers to His birth: even that is gathered up by His own testimony, so that the teaching in John's gospel as to the birth of Jesus is in the words of Jesus. He Himself speaks of His birth. It is not what others saw, but what He can speak of in relation to it.

E.C.B.        What is said in John 18 is said to Pilate. In John 14 He says "I am the truth". What I am trying to get at is what is involved in the truth because that is the reality of the testimony, it is the truth.

D.A.B.        The scripture says “the truth is in Jesus" - there is the idea that it is embodied in one Person, so that everything that God has sought to convey in the revelation of Himself and of His will can be taken account of in that one Person. One thing I like about John's gospel is that the testimony He renders is so much focused on individuals. We were noticing the other day how Pilate is himself the focus of a very lengthy testimony by Jesus. The woman in John 4 is similarly, so is Nicodemus, and the man in John 5. They have a prolonged exposure to this testimony and in the course of that much is unfolded as to what God's desires are and what Jesus has come to secure. Jesus speaks to the woman at Sychar about the testimony. We have often said we might have thought that that was a bit premature, but He does it because that is what the testimony relates to, it relates to what God is seeking, and to His service and our availability for it.

E.O.P.M. Could you open up a little more the link you see between the testimony and witness?

D.A.B.        In a sense I am thinking more about witness than testimony, if there is a distinction. We have here "the faithful and true witness", and what I see in that distinction, in so far as there is one, is that the eye is drawn by the idea of witness to the person. John speaks of the witness, which others have rendered, but Jesus is the Witness, just as He is the Word of God as we have in the passage in Revelation 19. There was a complete equivalence between what He was and what He said, as He says also (see John 8: 25). I would like, if possible, to draw out from the brethren what they see in Jesus and especially in the character of a witness. That is, what He was adorned and glorified everything He said.

D.J.H.        You see that in the beginning of John, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth", John 1: 14. That really coloured the testimony; all that He said and all that He did, all His movements were governed by what could be seen there in that blessed relationship.

D.A.B.        The Father took account of it as well. That is another question we might raise about the testimony, that is 'Who is it to?' My impression is that it is firstly to God, so that the Father says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight", Matt 17: 5. There was something that the world had not been made privy to in the life of Jesus. God kept it for Himself, and He keeps it for Himself still; we have no record of it. How profound the Father's delight must have been in every day, step and word that Jesus had.

D.J.H.        I think that is an important aspect of the testimony, that primarily it is for God; it is what God can look down on at the present time and see what Paul refers to as the life of Jesus. Whether it be manifested in our body, that is in a vessel which is here, or whether it be on the mortal flesh in the condition in which we are, it is what God can take account of, although it has its bearing towards other men.

D.A.B.        I hope we might see, a little later on, that the world, and indeed the universe, was created so that God might have something in it for His pleasure. He has had that in Jesus.

D.J.W.        Does witness involve what we have seen? I was thinking "The Son can do nothing of himself save whatever he sees the Father doing: for whatever things he does, these things also the Son does in like manner", John 5: 19.

D.A.B.        If I may say so reverently, nothing was lost in the telling. On the contrary, the telling amplified and was glorified by the One who was its witness. There was more in the testimony in the hands and in the words of Jesus than there could ever have been with a voice from the mountain. The same God was speaking but in a way that amplified, adorned and glorified the testimony of God.

D.J.W.        You raised the question earlier as to how that comes down. I was thinking of the first few verses of John's epistle "that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we have contemplated and our hands handled" (1 John 1: 1), and then our fellowship is with the apostles. Is that the way it is continued?

D.A.B.        The apostles provide a link between two distinct phases of testimony because they saw the one and had part in the other. I think there is something special about the apostles' witness that is complete, but it was formed by what they had seen in Jesus. That overlap enabled the present testimony to be set on in the same spirit and power.

E.C.B.        It would be helpful if more could be said about the way in which the testimony is to God. It is not a side of things which is commonly spoken of amongst us. Generally we speak about what we are to our neighbours and at work, but it seems that an essential element of the testimony is what it is towards God and no doubt has in view, as the hymn says:

All thou hast e’er desired from man we see in Him.

What God desired to see in man was the testimony of Jesus.

D.A.B.        Revelation 3 refers to "the beginning of the creation of God" and that raises the question, What was it all for? What is this great universe that man cannot compass, what was it made for? It was made so that in it there should be something that glorified God, and God was to be gratified by glory from that which He had made. We will see that the realisation of that in what is created is awaited, but as John brings out, Jesus has glorified God on the earth. How much that was appreciated by others is a secondary question, but God was glorified on the earth. That I believe is the consummation of testimony.

E.C.B.        I think that is right. It is the difference between the first Adam and the last Adam. The last Adam is the testimony that God looked for in man, that He found in man here on earth in Jesus. It is easy to multiply references but "we speak that which we know, and we bear witness of what we have seen", John 3: 11. What Jesus is referring to there is what He must have seen in the purpose of God.

D.A.B.        Adam was a figure of Him that is to come (see Rom 5: 14). What was coming was greater than what God set on in the creation of Adam. The fulfilment of what God set on in the creation will be when everything is headed up in the Christ, and that will be for the pleasure and glory of God. I trust this is not avoiding what is practical - we will come to what is practical - but I think we must see the level at which Jesus has set the idea of testimony. If we set our own level for it we will dishonour the idea of testimony that has been expressed in the life of Jesus.

D.E.R.        Is not the testimony the setting forth at the present time of what will be displayed in its fulness in the time to come?

D.A.B.        I hope we will see that a little later on. If we want to find out what the present testimony is, the account we have in Scripture of what is about to be manifested is the best indicator of what it should be. It would raise our view of it. In the life of Jesus here there was a very highly concentrated manifestation of what God is going to have in the coming glory and the world could not see it, but God could see it and some of His own were made privy to it. Sufficient light has now been given as to the life of Jesus for us to learn from it about what God intends testimony to be.

L.A.B.        The assembly as answering to it is able to present God rightly and at the same time to yield glory to God. Is that not the answer to the perfect witness that there was in that blessed Man?

D.A.B.        Yes, and it is perfect in the measure in which she is filled with that One. How much she admires Him! It was simply my desire that, in speaking over this matter, this Name, the faithful Witness, and drawing out what there is among the brethren about Him, our hearts might be stirred, so that when we come to think about what part we have in the testimony, we think about it with stirred hearts, and with some fresh impression about what Jesus has been.

L.A.B.        It is the testimony of Jesus Christ; it is not the testimony of Christ Jesus. That is, it relates to the blessedness of all that came out in that blessed Man down here in this very world in which we find ourselves.

D.A.B.        I keep on quoting Mr. A.J. Gardiner on that Name. He pointed out that there are many anti-christs but there is only one Christ. He said, 'Jesus Christ is the man whom God is pleased to distinguish'. He has distinguished Him by giving Him a place above, Jesus Christ the righteous is with the Father now; but He was here in testimony and God has been pleased to distinguish Him because of the way He distinguished God in testimony.

G.N.        He is the effulgence of His glory and the expression of His substance (see Heb 1: 3). I wondered whether that would bear on what you are bringing before us. Is the testimony continued in sonship at the present time?

D.A.B.        I link those impressions very much with Paul's first meeting with Jesus - that is where he saw Him, in the glory. Those who knew Him here on earth have been referred to, and John was among them. John writes his gospel, and I believe all his writings are coloured by what he took account of. We live in a day when God has made the fullest disclosure of Himself. It would be sufficient to speak from the mountain, or to speak in creation. We were noticing the other day that even those who have heard His voice in creation are inexcusable, but He has spoken to us in the Person of the Son. He has spoken to us in Jesus. It is not simply that Jesus is revealed to be Someone in heaven, but He has actually been in the place where testimony has to be, and He has glorified God there.

J.S.G.        Is there help in John 8 where Jesus is challenged as to His bearing witness and He links the thought of witness with "whence he came and whether he goes". Does that help in the enquiry as to the character of the faithful and true witness, as it was to the One from whom He came and to the One to whom He was about to go?

D.A.B.        It is very fine to think of Him coming out freighted with all the blessed truth of God, and charged to make it attractive, and convicting and appealing. He returned whence He came and delivered a message, but He glorified the One whose message it was. He is received back into the glory that He left, having added to that glory in the pathway He took down here.

J.S.G.        I wondered if the verses in John 8 perhaps suggest to us that there is not very much difference between the thought of witness and testimony because the Lord seems to use the words interchangeably there.

D.A.B.        If a distinction is to be made, the idea of witness focuses our attention on the person rather than on the message. In the life of Jesus that distinction cannot be made because He says He is altogether that which he says, but let us contemplate the way He moved, the grace of His pathway, "full of grace and truth", coming out from heaven to make God known in a way that He had never been known before and returning to the Father with that mission accomplished, and a testimony left here to that perfection.

V.E.W.        In John 8, the Lord Jesus says "but I honour my Father, and ye dishonour me" (v 49) - the Man of John 8.

D.A.B.        In other words He would not have anything taken away from the divine testimony. He says, "the reproaches of those that reproach thee have fallen on me", Ps 69: 9. He made Himself the butt of men's reproach, for the sake of the testimony of God. That is very wonderful!

V.E.W.        You referred to John's gospel. Would you say more as to the opposition that the Lord Jesus had to face? Is it religious in its character more?

D.A.B.        We might say a bit more about that when we speak about Laodicea. What we will see then is that the opposite of testimony is pretension. That is what the testimony of Jesus challenged and exposed in the Jews, their pretension. He says in John 8 "this did not Abraham" (v 40). He is the faithful and true witness, the One from whom pretension is absolutely absent.

J.W.        As the faithful and true witness, do you think there was a suited humility about the Lord in His testimony. The latter part of John 5 shows that He did not come to glorify Himself, He came to glorify God, He did not speak from Himself, and He did not come in His own name. Does that link with what you are thinking of?

D.A.B.        It does very much and John emphasises that side. He says "I have not come to seek my own glory", John 8: 50. Mr Darby said that the world has not seen the glory of Christ yet; if we speak about the personal coming of Christ, he says, it is future, because He came for the Father's glory and was here as a lowly bondman serving the will and glory of Another. That is the heart of testimony. We do not render testimony to ourselves. That is something I hope we will see.

E.C.B.        It is a well known remark of Mr Raven's that what God is about to display He gives testimony to first, but what He is yet going to display has already been seen in Jesus here, has it not?

D.A.B.        Yes. I had that remark very much in mind, that the coming glory sheds light on what the nature of the present testimony is, but there is a sense in which it has all been anticipated. Even the present testimony has been anticipated - indeed it must be so - in the life of Jesus here. There is a fulness and completeness about that which stands on its own.

E.C.B.         It is remarkable that if, in relation to ourselves, you think of testimony, that the testimony that has been displayed in Jesus is God. What is going to be displayed when the whole of God's work is displayed in men must be some presentation of Himself.

D.A.B.        What is being drawn attention to is important. We might have thought that there was room in the testimony of Jesus for something about Himself, but the way He presents Himself in John's gospel seems to rule that out, in order to concentrate the heart and the mind of the contemplator of Jesus. The person who contemplated His glory would see the Father.

J.W.        I think that is very affecting. It is emphasised in John's gospel where you get the greatness of His Person, the One who is the I am, yet He is moving in such a lowly way.

D.A.B.        In Revelation 19 He has a Name that no one knows but him that has it. That links with what you are saying, but He is the faithful and true. That relates to His witness.

P.J.W.        The woman in chapter 4 says, "Come, see a man" (v 29), and the man in John 9 says "A man called Jesus" (v 11). That is what has been said, the greatness of His person coming out, and yet it is a Man.

D.A.B.        Even some of the others I referred to say the same - the man in John 5 does and Pilate says, "behold the man". People who had failed to get the advantage of His witness nevertheless acknowledge what was there and what was embodied in Jesus.

R.W.F.        Does the faithful and true witness encompass the idea of what had been made fully known earlier in John's gospel, "he hath declared him", in the context that "no one has seen God at any time, the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1: 18? Nothing that could be held back has been held back, all has been made known. I wondered if it is affecting to us to understand that that is so and it is not to be limited by our understanding of it.

D.A.B.        It is very important to see that essential element of witness, that it is complete. We might not have thought so except that Jesus is the model of witness. What God seeks in witness He has found in Jesus and He is not settling for anything less in the present time. We look round upon one another and say there are not very many of us, there used to be more, and so on; we see a few gaps. Brethren pass on; as we say, meetings close. We might starting thinking, it is getting a bit patchy, but witness is complete. If our understanding of testimony is governed by that kind of circumstance, we have not a proper understanding of what testimony is. If we want to be recovered to a proper understanding of it, we look at Jesus.

E.F.W.        John in his writing, at the outset of his gospel, speaks of John the Baptist standing and seeing Jesus as He walked. What impressions he must have had of the walk of that Man! It is not what He said there, but how He walked, that was different from every other. That is right at the outset of His gospel. I thought what has been said about other chapters in John's gospel really had a wonderful start in that there was a Man walking here on earth and there was no comparison to such a Man. Then later, that Man is One with whom two went to see where He dwelt, and then we get all that He said. All that is part of the witness, but it began with what they saw. John the Baptist stood as though this was a tremendous sight to behold.

D.A.B.        The Lord did not come and station Himself somewhere for people to make pilgrimages to and walk round, like some kind of effigy or anything of that sort. He was actually treading this earth, He was living actually in the place of testimony and so accessible. I find it hard to picture Him walking away from them, but bringing the testimony of God towards them. They did not have to run after Him; it seems almost as if they had an encounter with Him.

E.F.W.        The day before John the Baptist said that, He was coming to him. This is the next day and he was drawing attention to the walk of that blessed Man.

D.A.B.        It is characteristic of Jesus, He says, "I come quickly", Rev 3: 11. That is a character of Jesus and it brings the witness of God right where we are.

E.C.        Have you any thought to say something about faithfulness? "The faithful and true witness", because the Lord was faithful and your exercise is that we should be the same.

D.A.B.        It is interesting that He has that Name. He is called Faithful and True. It links with what has been drawn attention to in John 18 that the Lord came for a purpose, "I have come into the world, that I might bear witness of the truth". If you or I gave a witness people might say, How much has he told us, has he told us everything? What does he manage to convey? Has he managed to convey just the fact, or has he managed to add something of the glory and the atmosphere of the place from which he has come? The Lord Jesus has undertaken to do all that and more. At the end of His course here He can say, "I have finished the work that thou gavest me that I should do it", John 17: 4. The course of things has not been changed, there has not been any variation or any shortfall, He can come to the end on the day appointed and say the He had finished it.

D.J.H.        Would His faithfulness involve that whatever the circumstances in which He found Himself - and they were very varied - the testimony remained and it was true all the way? He was unchanged in relation to it.

D.A.B.        Yes, and His testimony was not reactive, it was not determined by the circumstances. It was perfectly suited to the circumstance but pre-ordained to be so. It was not that the testimony was moulding itself round the circumstances, but the circumstances came to meet the testimony and the testimony was ready for every vicissitude through which it passed.

D.J.W.        Is that encouragement for us? You referred earlier to admirers. So the testimony is not exactly an effort, it is just what you are living, it is just what you are come out.

D.A.B.        The only One in whom perfect testimony has been seen is the One who did it that way.

D.J.W.        It does work out. I was affected by the words we had at Mr Meek's burial. It was not what he had said; it was what the man was that was referred to. That really is the testimony, what the man was enjoying, what he was.

D.A.B.        I was touched by noticing in the concordance that John's word for witness is our word for martyr. I thought about Balaam. He says, 'I would like to die the death of the righteous, I would like to have a death like that, let my end by like that' (see Num 23: 10). But what about his beginning, what about the middle, how was that going to be? Was he going to seek enchantments, or was he going to be a witness?

J.W.        Was it another feature of His faithfulness in witness that He would hold nothing back, knowing that it would bring Him into suffering? I was thinking of your reference to 'martyr'.

D.A.B.        That links with what has been asked about, that the adverse consequences of saying things never weighed.

E.C.B.        Later in Revelation it will say, "His name is faithful and true". Does not what is being said underline that testimony is an absolute notion, it is not a relative notion?

D.A.B.        That is why I thought we had to be begin with Jesus. We could start with ourselves and talk about how far we are in the good of these things, but in the good of what? We had to start with the divine standard. It is not an abstract standard, but for three and a half years it has actually been seen here in adverse circumstances.

D.J.R.        If the testimony, as you say, as to God has been seen perfectly and completely in Christ, then why is there this dispensation?

D.A.B.        We will come on to that.

D.E.B.        I was going to enquire whether the two further descriptions of the Lord in verse 5 are relevant to what we are saying, "the faithful witness, the first-born from the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth". That all enters into the testimony. As He has been into death and come out of it, the first-born is suggestive of what will soon be manifested in its fulness in the many who are raised from the dead. But then He has this title too, "the prince of the kings of the earth". Whatever majesty and glory you can think of in relation to things seen here relative to man, He is superior to all that, is He not?

D.A.B.        I think both these names convey the idea of God's selection. This is the kind of Man, this is the Man whom God is pleased to distinguish. He has distinguished Him in raising "Him from among the dead and giving Him glory, that our faith and hope should be in God", 1 Peter 1: 21. God has made that choice.

B.H.C.        In regard to the thought of faithfulness, the Lord was here in relation to the Father. In John 1 it says "with a father", "we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father" (v 14). I was thinking of how it says Abraham and Isaac went both of them together, then in John 17 the Lord could say, "I am not of the world" His testimony was in relation to a heavenly order of things.

D.A.B.        If we can go on from that I would like to bring out that the faithfulness of testimony is a matter of proximity. It is a question of how near we are. Reference has already been made to the remark well known among us that God will have in testimony what He is about to display in glory. I understand that to be the meaning of the word in chapter 19 that "the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus". The reference to Him as "the beginning" raises the question, What was it all made for? In Psalm 19 the psalmist says, "The heavens declares the glory of God" (v 1). That is what they were for, and then "In them hath he set a tent for the sun" (v 4); that is they provide a back-drop for the glory of Christ. Then when we think of the earth, God made it to be inhabited, He made to be occupied by people who were to be God's image and glory, according to 1 Corinthians 11 verse 7. In the present time, "all come short of the glory of God" (Rom 3: 23), so that in man after the flesh there is not a true testimony, but as we have been remarking there has been a true testimony in Jesus. He says "I have glorified thee on the earth", John 17: 4. God has answered that testimony by exalting the Lord Jesus and by appointing a day in which He will come in His own glory. The Father will lend His glory and the angels will lend their glory, but He will come in His own glory. The wonderful thing about that is that we shall come with Him. As Paul says in Colossians 3, "your life is hid with the Christ in God. When he is manifested who is our life, then shall we be manifested with him in glory" (v 4).

Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 1 that "he shall have come to be glorified in his saints, and wondered at in all those who have believed in that day" (v 10). This scripture says that these things will shortly take place; it says "the time is near". In the time it would take any of us here to blink, they will become an actuality. Now if that is the case, I say to myself, should the light and glory of those things not shine in present testimony?

D.J.H.        I would like to know more as to what is in your mind as to being near. I was thinking of our nearness to the One who has been the faithful and true witness. You referred to His walk earlier and John says "he that says he abides in him" - you could not be nearer than that - "ought, even as He walked, himself also ought so to walk", 1 John 2: 6. I wondered as to our nearness to the faithful and true witness, whether you had that in mind at all that it would result witness of that character, the testimony of that kind coming into expression in us.

D.A.B.        From the public point of view - not from the secret point of view - the rapture and the appearing are presented as the same thing. If that is so it means that the glory that is about to be revealed is just the other side of the twinkling of an eye. That is how near we are to seeing the glory of Jesus. I do not know if we all feel as near as that - nearness has been spoken of. I ask myself, Do I? You could tell if I did from my testimony. That is what I had in mind.

P.J.W.        Paul speaks about the life of Jesus being manifested in His mortal flesh. Would that bear on what you are saying?

D.A.B.        He refers to an earthen vessel but with light shining through it. People have linked that with Gideon, but Paul does not speak about broken vessels. It is remarkable that the light shines through an earthen pot and not just a dim glow. What should be shining through is the radiancy of what is so near, a glory that this world is hardly fit to see.

E.C.B.        The hindrance to that in the chapter which has been referred to is the god of this world.

D.A.B.        Dare I say simply, he is our problem, because he eclipses our testimony to the glory of Christ. The more we feel beholden to him, the less the glory of Christ will be manifested. But, as we have seen, the testimony of Jesus was not like that. He says, "the ruler of the world comes, and in me he has nothing", John 14: 30. Dare I say to myself and to my beloved brethren, if he had less in me, would the glory of Christ, which the world is about to see in all its brilliance, show a little more brightly? And should it not? Is that a question?

E.C.B.        Yes it is, and it raises the question as to the quality of the preaching of the gospel among us. According to that chapter the glad tidings is of the glory of the Christ and it is intended to bring about a reflex of that in men.

D.A.B.        Exactly. "The radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them", 2 Cor. 4:4. What a thing to be denied by the god of this world. What a treasure to be robbed of!

E.C.B.        What a treasure for the world to be robbed of too.

D.A.B.        Going back to what we have said, what a treasure for God to be robbed of. Think of what He had in Jesus here on earth, a humble lowly Man, and now what He has in testimony relates to that Man glorified. It is in earthen vessels, it is in people in difficult circumstances, and there are a lot of problems to overcome, but the testimony they carry is to that Man glorified.

P.J.W.        Paul also speaks of the dying or putting to death of Jesus - bearing about in his body the dying of Jesus. That is the test.

D.A.B.        What is the answer to the test?

P.J.W.        The man that never pleased God has to be put to death in me, do you think?

D.A.B.        Absolutely. Can we turn from allowing the god of this world to eclipse the glory of Christ; can we so fill our hearts with that glory that the god of this world will appear eclipsed. We referred the other day to the world's glory growing strangely dim. It is quite bright for most of us. The glory of Christ is much brighter if only we would let it shine.

L.A.B.        That involves our giving greater room to the Spirit of God, because He is the One who has come to glorify Christ. These things cannot be worked up to by us. The only way, and the secret of it, is giving greater room and place to the Spirit of God.

D.A.B.        We have to come to that, that however well-intentioned we are, however much we might be ready to acknowledge the faults of the first man, Adam will not glorify Christ. The Lord Jesus says as to the Spirit, "He shall glorify me". Is that what you are thinking?

L.A.B.        Yes, and "greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world", 1 John 4:4.

D.A.B.        So there ought to be a brighter light.

L.A.B.        I agree there ought to be, but we need to lay hold of the truth. I have often thought that the enemy constantly tries to eclipse in our minds the reality of a Man the other side of death, and the power and presence of the Spirit here.

D.A.B.        I wish I could hold myself up as a shining example, but all I can point the brethren to is where to begin. I am sure you are right that there is One greater in us, and it is not just that He is more powerful, and able to check Satan as we might feel we would like Him to, but He has a brighter light. It is the light of a coming glory in which the glory of this world will appear dark. These things are so near, you could blink and they might be there. If we believe that, if we keep saying that, why does it not come out more in our testimony?

D.H.        It mentions the Amen in verse 14 of chapter 3 and also 8 of the first chapter, the Alpha and Omega. In 2 Corinthians 1 it says "For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us" (v 20).

D.A.B.        I was going to say something about the Amen right at the end - that is where Amens come. There is a difference between the Omega and the Amen. The Omega is the Lord having the last word, and He is entitled to that, but the Amen is affirmative. If we look at the life of Jesus, He is His own Amen. Who else could say Amen to the testimony of Jesus? He says "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have finished the work that thou gavest me to do that I should do it". On the cross He says, "It is finished"; in Revelation He says "It is done". But the blessed thing is that He is the Amen to the present testimony as well. The day of display, when He comes to be glorified in His saints, is the Amen to the present testimony. In a coming day the One who has glorified God on the earth is going to glorify everybody, great or small, who has had a part in the present testimony. I think that is very wonderful! What a promise to a company that was being unfaithful!

G.N.        The operation of the Spirit will result in what is transparent. I was wondering whether that should be apparent amongst us at the present time, amongst all believers. Maybe Satan would allow things that perhaps would not contribute to transparency. That is my concern.

D.A.B.        We do not want transparency just so that we can see the faults of one another. We do not want a loss of privacy that makes things public that are better not public, but if the transparency yielded more of the appreciation of Christ, if it made the light shine brighter, if what I know is among the brethren came out more freely and fully, yes, let us have transparency for that.

G.N.        Satan works in many ways. Paul, as we well know, had to refuse the help of Satan in the woman with the spirit of Python, and we have to be very careful because Satan will operate very subtly. I was just thinking of the Spirit's work, the result of it is transparent.

D.A.B.        Satan has his own interests in transparency; we have only to read the newspaper to see what Satan would like to be transparent. We live in a prurient age in which the most evil things are freely spoken about, and it is thought to be a good thing. What Satan is not interested in is the glory of Christ, and he brings forward all his filth to set aside and to becloud and eclipse the present testimony. Let us not have anything to do with it. Let us be more bent, as Jesus was, to see that the glory of the One to whom we render testimony is what really comes out in our lives.

R.M.B.        Why does the Lord present Himself as the Amen to Laodicea?

D.A.B.        The Lord sends this letter to the seven churches. The seven churches are neighbours to one another and the letters are given in the order in which a messenger going to them all would travel. The Lord starts with the one that is nearest to Patmos and the only one that is on the sea. So a messenger from Patmos would go across to Ephesus and then around the others, and he would come last to Laodicea. Bearing that in mind, it is interesting that He says, I am coming, to the first six churches, but to Laodicea, He has come already. He says “I stand at the door”. We might say He has only got as far as the first one, but He has actually got as far as the last one. A lot has entered in to what He has had to say about the others but He presents Himself as the security of the whole testimony. Whatever unfaithfulness has come in, not just at Laodicea, the triumph, the successful outcome of the testimony, is assured, and it is assured by Him, not by us.

R.M.B.        I think what you say is helpful. I was also helped by some remarks of Mr Darby in which he says that God asserted certain things as to the church, its heavenly place, and heavenly blessings, but the church in its Laodicean condition completely failed to put its Amen to that. In Jesus, by contrast, everything for which God looked to Him He has greatly affirmed in His own blessed person.

D.A.B.        We must speak simply - we have failed too and if the testimony had been entrusted to us it would be in ruins. Mr Darby said that, if we are a testimony to anything, we are a testimony to the ruin. Mr Raven said, rightly, What use is that? But the testimony is not in ruins because although we have part in it, it remains in the custody of the Spirit. It is not a testimony about us, it is a testimony about Jesus. A testimony about Jesus cannot be allowed to fail and God will ensure that it does not. That is a great comfort. It does not let us off, but it is a great comfort, it is a point of recovery. We have something to come back to. If the testimony was drifting as we have drifted in the past, how would we ever recover? But there is something to come back to.

D.J.H.        We need understanding as to the house of God, as referred to in 1 Timothy, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. That remains. We speak much of a great house, the simile that is used in the second epistle, but we need to see that there is something to come back to, something which is here by virtue of the presence and faithfulness of the Holy Spirit.

D.A.B.        Mr Darby said also that to get the idea that we are the testimony and to become occupied with ourselves is corrupting. It actually leads to corruption, and then he goes on to remark in relation to Moses that a shining face never saw itself. That is what I am trying to stimulate the brethren about, that we might have faces that shine because they are occupied with the glory of Christ.

E.C.B.        In regard to what has been asked about, it is perhaps to be noted that the One who is the Amen and the faithful and true witness is the One who stands at the door and knocks. Things are never without hope.

D.A.B.        Perhaps I could tell a little story about Laodicea. I think the Lord is very gracious the way He comes to them. Laodicea was a place that had grown rich from banking and its commodity trade was in black cloth and eye-salve. You can see that the Lord presents Himself here almost like a travelling salesman; he stands at the door with things to sell. They would not be interested in free gifts - when Laodicea was destroyed once by an earthquake they refused charity, but He offers to sell them things, things they might be interested in buying. Before He talks to them about the things they might buy, He talks to them about their water. Laodicea is a remarkable place; it has hot and cold springs. We know that hot and cold water are perfectly useful in their own place: the Lord says "I would thou wert cold or hot". But the hot water was some way away from the place and instead of going to its source, they let it run into the town in a channel so that by the time it arrived it was cold. The Lord says, that is horrible, I cannot savour that kind of spirit. They had left their first love, they had stopped admiring Jesus, they had stopped going to the source where vitality could be maintained, they had allowed indifference and especially they had allowed pretension. The Lord says He was going to spew them out of His mouth, not because they would not answer the door, but because they said they had grown rich and needed nothing. We might say that falling numbers are an antidote to pretension, but they are not, because we pretend to make up for what we have not got outwardly. Pretension is the absolute antithesis of testimony. The Lord could put all that right: He stands at the door. Would anyone open the door to the Man for whom the whole universe was created, the One who has been a faithful and true witness, the One who is going to see everything through? Would anyone open the door and let Him in? It is very fine that He promises everything to the overcomer. There is nothing taken away, there is no consolation prize here, He promises Him everything. "I will give to him to sit with me in my throne." What a thing! He promises Laodicea what He has always intended that the people of God should have. I believe He is making an urgent and a very immediate appeal to their affections as I think He would to ours.

G.C.B.        He speaks in verse 20 as to the individual. Do you think that if we are exercised to open the door there will be advantage and gain for the saints locally and elsewhere?

D.A.B.        That is very simply why I read the verse in Corinthians because it refers to the testimony of the Christ confirmed in them, or as I understand that might mean 'among' them. Paul is able to identify that certain households were in the good of this. There is another aspect of testimony to one another, but it must start with individuals. If only we could draw one another into this more, so that what is true of the brightest might become true of us all!

G.C.B.        I think we should have the faith for that. As we are sitting down with one another we should have the faith, the Lord being present, that there is advantage for the whole company.

D.A.B.        I think the Lord has the faith for it. This knock at the door was not a hopeless quest; there was a real prospect that someone would answer. "To him that overcomes" - who was that? It does not says, if anyone overcomes, but "to him that overcomes". It was not a lost cause the Lord was on.

R.W.F.        "I with him and he with me" conveys, among other things, that the Lord wished to have a conversation with them. This is a conversational meeting. The opportunity is now.

D.A.B.        It reminds me again of John's gospel. There are two very beautiful touches as the Lord prepares to leave His own. One is "you will see me again", and then He says, "I will see you again". I think that is what the Lord is thinking about here. That is how much He loves the company of His own, that is how much He wants to share these things with us.

L.A.B.        Is it interesting therefore that He does not say, If anybody hears my knock: He says, ‘If anybody hears my voice’. I thought it stressed the intimacy that the Lord desires to have with His own. He will knock, but what He really desires is that we might hear His voice. To hear somebody's voice you generally have to be fairly near.

D.A.B.        He does not just say, if you hear my word, either. All His feelings are in His voice, all His desires, all His longings, all His aspirations for His own are in His voice. The sheep hear His voice. He is able to convey something of what He is about to lead them into in the way He says things.

J.W.        Hearing His voice would be the recognition of the Person. He is outside here. That would come home to one who heard His voice.

D.A.B.        It cannot be anybody else. That was partly what was in my mind in starting with the faithful and true witness, that we might have this conversation secure in some fresh apprehension of who this Person is. We do not mistake Him for somebody else. He says the sheep do not hear the voice of strangers, they have an ear for One.

L.A.B.        That involves the effect in an occasion like this.

D.A.B.        I believe that is what occasions like this are for, that we might become accustomed to His voice.

D.E.B.        Do you have any thought as to the reference in 1 Corinthians to the testimony being confirmed to you (see 1 Cor 1: 6)?

D.A.B.        There are a number of references in what we have read. John says that he "testified the testimony of Jesus", which I think is being in the good of what he was enjoying, and then in chapter 19 we have those who have the testimony - not just that they profess it or acknowledge that it is true, but it is something that characterises them; and then in Corinthians that it was confirmed. Paul has especially in mind what might be found in the Christian circle. There is a reinforcing effect of being among the brethren. In a conversation like this we can talk about these things together and, by discovering the convictions that different ones have about them, and drawing out from one another what they have, we become established in the truth of these things.

D.J.H.        Is it important that it follows "awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ"? That is that the display of what is here in testimony is before those in whom the testimony is confirmed. It is something that you have been bringing before us in the course of this time, that what is to be displayed is here in testimony. It seems as though the power for it is what we are waiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. It speaks elsewhere of the coming glory and the sufferings of the present time, which the testimony might involve, that they are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed (see Rom 8: 18). It is important that that should be before us.

D.A.B.        The present testimony is to the coming glory of Christ and the glorifying of His saints with Him in that day. The world has no idea that this is about to happen. They look at believers, but they have no idea that we are about to be glorified with Jesus. In the Christian circle we know that it is true, and therefore these things should be confirmed among us. We should have some sense in our gatherings together that we anticipate what is about to be our experience.

D.J.H.        I think we would talk about it a bit more. I say that to my own shame.

D.A.B.        And I to mine. It has just come home to me as I have thought about this. The children can try this: blink - it does not take long, and in that space of time, these things will be a present reality. How opaque is the earthen vessel that these things do not show in present testimony.

R.W.F.        The writer to the Hebrews speaks of the world to come of which we speak. Presumably we know something about it if we speak about it, otherwise it is what you were just saying earlier, presumption.

D.A.B.        We do not just speak about it in a speculative kind of way. People wonder what they are going to find when they go to heaven but we speak about something that is confirmed among us.

H.A.H.        "Confirmed in you", would that be first of all in Paul himself and then in those he can draw attention to like the house of Chloe and Stephanus and others, do you think?

D.A.B.        I am not sure that Paul is exactly limiting this here. It is very instructive the line he is on here. There were all kinds of problems in Corinth, but he does not take Balaam's view of them. He does not stand at the extremity of the camp where he can look into all the tents and see the problems. He stands outside the tent of meeting and says, this is how it ought to be. In God's view it is so. God has not seen iniquity in Jacob: that is these verses in Corinthians - "how goodly are thy tents ... like aloes which Jehovah hath planted; like cedars beside the water" Num 24: 5,6. That is how Paul takes account of the Corinthians. We are in mixed conditions, but it is that side we should be cultivating.

H.A.H.        It is all those features that you drew attention to that are really inside the tent of testimony that you referred to at the beginning of the reading.

D.A.B.        It is much more challenging to our state than to look at what we think is wrong from the extremity of the camp. If you stand outside the tabernacle, it will correct your vision in a way that walking around the extremity of the camp like Balaam never will.

D.E.R.        "Confirmed in you" suggests that the testimony was substantial in them. Their lifestyle was such that it manifested the testimony of Jesus.

D.A.B.        That is extremely practical. We are all tested as we go outside. We are all tested by the glory of the world as we see it, but surely starting here, what you are speaking of, that lifestyle, could be cultivated among us, and as we work on it with one another so it will become easier for us as we face adversity carrying the savour and the brightness of it with us.

E.C.B.        Chapter 12 implies that the working of the body locally is a sign that the testimony of the Christ has been formed, "so also is the Christ".

D.A.B.        It is substantial. It is what Paul says to the Colossians, "the body is of Christ". What is substantial has that character. There is lots of it here in this company and we ought to be able to work on one another to set it free.

 

London

18 March 2000

 

Key to Initials

(London unless shown)

L.A.Barlow, Bexley; R.M.Brown, East Finchley; D.A.Burr, D.E.Burr, Redbridge; E.C.Burr, G.C.Bywater, Buckhurst Hill; B.H.Clark; E.Croot, Dorking; R.W.Flowerdew, Sunbury; J.S.Gray, East Finchley; D.Hawgood, Bexley; D.J.Hutson, H.A.Hutson; E.O.P.Mutton, Walton; G.Napthine, Colchester, D.E.Remmington, St. Albans; D.J.Roberts, Gillingham; P.J.Walkinshaw, Gillingham; D.J.Willetts, Birmingham; E.F.Woodford, Dorking; V.E.Wraighte, Gillingham; J.Wright, Redbridge.