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THINGS WE HAVE COME TO

RT I thought the Lord may encourage us to speak of some of the things we have come to. We are so apt to take our impressions from the confused state of things that is abroad and the breakdown arising through man intruding into the things of God. But it is a fine thing to see that God has not changed His mind or His thoughts. It is very striking, in the book of Numbers particularly, when the people failed and breakdown had come in, that God brings in the word, “When ye come into the land of your dwellings”, Num 15: 2. God would remind us of what He has called us into, that His thoughts have not changed but, too, that He has made a way to secure them all in Christ. I thought that these scriptures may help us to see the way that God has operated to work out His thoughts, and the One in whom He has operated in bringing many sons to glory. It is what God is doing, it is still His mind to bring many sons to glory. How He has done it is through that One already made perfect, the Leader of our salvation. Then we are to be partakers of a heavenly calling. What we have been called into has its centre and source and origin in heaven. Then we have some detail in chapter 12 of the beauty of these things to which we have come. We have come to them now; it is not that we are coming to them but it is what the gospel calls us into, it is what divine grace calls us to have part in. We all feel how little we have part in it but maybe we could be encouraged today to see that it is not only open to us but it is the Spirit’s mind and His service to bring us into the joy of them now. In spite of what has come into our histories and what we have had part in, it is still God’s mind to bring many sons to glory.

LMcF So the greatness of His Person is brought before us immediately: “it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory”. These “all things” are a very wide thought, would you not say?

RT Yes, it brings us back to the greatness of God, “for whom are all things, and by whom are all things”. There are certain things that have come into man’s hand which have ended in breakdown, but these are things that God has retained in His own hand, including the saints. So that “for whom are all things” means that He is the great end, and He is the great operator. The hymn says,

O God, the thought was Thine,

Thine only could it be (Hymn 92)

It was His mind to bring sons to glory and now He has operated to secure His joy in them. So it is to encourage our hearts that, in spite of what is broken and the weakness we feel, God is the great operator and He is working out His own thoughts in His own way.

JAP It is of interest that you say God changes not. Is that not one of His names? He says, “For I Jehovah change not”, Mal 3: 6.

RT He is the same, He does not change. We have been taken aback by many things that have happened in the history of the testimony, but God has not been taken aback. He does not change in His thoughts by what we have done or what has come in; He is still bringing many sons to glory. It is “many sons”, not a few, but all those who were purposed, those who were in His mind; He still regards them in their true dignity: “bringing many sons to glory”.

CFD Maybe you would say a word as to what this glory is.

RT I think it is bringing us to Himself. I suppose it includes what we have come to in Hebrews 12; I think it is bringing us into His own circumstances, His own surroundings. What would you say?

CFD It is a very beautiful expression; we often draw on this scripture at the time of the service of God on Lord’s day. It seems to be something that relates to the persons themselves and yet has to do with the place into which they are brought.

RT I think it is where divine grace and love would have us to live; it is bringing us to glory. We have our part in responsible matters of course, but divine love and grace set out in the gospel are to bring us into divine arrangements. I think the glory would be something of divine arrangements which we touch in the assembly. You will remember that when He brought them out of Egypt, it says He brought them out and He will bring them in and plant them in the mountain of His inheritance, Exod 15: 17. So God has wonderful thoughts even now of which the saints are to be in the joy and the liberty.

LMcF This would be in His purpose for us before time began, though it awaited the fulness of time—God sending His Son—for us to have our part in it. Is that right?

RT I think so. In Christianity things have become fixed, you may say. It says earlier in the chapter: “But now we see not yet all things subjected to him, but we see Jesus” (v 9); there is a Man in whom God’s thoughts have been set out and in that Man we can see the thoughts of His purpose unfolding.

GDP Did you have some thought about sons being the full thought of maturity, not just simple believers but sons?

RT That is a very fine thing to lay hold of today, that in spite of our history God is regarding us in the true wealth and dignity that divine grace has put upon us. You say some more about it.

GDP I thought from your opening prayer that you had that in mind, maturity going on to full thoughts, until we arrive at the full grown man. Is that right?

RT Very good. So in the times we are in, broken times, it is very easy to settle for a lot less and rearrange our circumstances short of what divine love and grace would have us to enjoy. We feel these things very much. But God’s thoughts have not changed, He is bringing many sons to glory, and in doing it, “to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings”, to give expression to His thoughts and to bring the saints into the joy of them.

CSE In the thought of many sons there is no limitation; the limitation is on our side. But God is bringing many sons in, and that opens our minds to a vast area that is under His hand; expansion is in mind in that.

RT God has greater thoughts about us than we can ever have for ourselves; He is bringing many sons to glory. The effort of the enemy is to cause us, as I said, to settle for less. But it is beautiful the way God is operating and has operated through ‘‘the leader of their salvation through sufferings”. There is One in whom it has all been established and in whom the way has been set out; He the firstborn, the Son, the Beloved; already, we may say, in glory, the great Forerunner of a wonderful company, is He not?

CFD Bringing us into the idea of the divine arrangement is very suggestive. Do you think bringing many sons to glory involves the whole mediatorial setting of things and the functioning of it?

RT I think so. Ephesians would open it up more I suppose, that through Christ and by one Spirit we have access to the Father, chap 2: 18. It is emphasising the Person there more, but here it is the environment into which we are brought. Think of divine grace bringing many sons into circumstances where everything is suited to divine love. It says He has done it and in doing it He has made perfect the Leader of their salvation through sufferings. What a substantial basis has been laid in the sufferings of Jesus for God’s heart to expand and bring many sons to glory!

JAP The expression, “it became him”, is a very wonderful expression, as if to say, This is what our God will do.

RT It is very beautiful, there is wonderful feeling in it; “it became him”. He did not leave man after the fall; He has not left us because of all that we are as of Adam’s fallen race, but it became Him in the working out of His thoughts to make perfect the Leader of their salvation through sufferings. He has operated, as we are so often reminded, from His own side. The footnote tells us as to the Leader that there is only one, it is the One who has worked out the whole plan of divine love and thus has made the way for God to be free to bring many sons to glory.

LMcF Do you think service is in view? It would seem to be a primary thought of the blessed God. Even in relation to Israel He says, “Let my son go, that he may serve me”, Exod 4: 23. So it does seem that the service of God is very much in view here.

RT Yes, I think so. It would issue in that, not so much service in the wilderness but service in the land, we may say—sons at home, is it not? How sweeter and fuller the service becomes as we touch something of the environment in which divine love would have us to be at home. The song at the Red Sea was one thing—very beautiful—but when you come to David’s psalms and the dedication of the house, you see something of service and sons being brought to glory. It helps to have our thoughts transferred to the One in whom it has all been brought to pass; firstly as the Leader of our salvation and then the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. The whole system is upheld and centred in Christ, a glorious Man.

CSE Would you say a further word on ‘‘to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings”? Why do you think it is put that way—’’through sufferings”? You might say, because of who He is, He could have used other means to do it, but it is through sufferings.

RT I think it brings before us very beautifully the manhood of Jesus. Many things were done by angels but here it has been done in a Man, and the sufferings have brought out the feelings of the Man. In the majesty of His Person death had to give way: “Lazarus, come forth”, John 11: 44. These are things He did in His power. I think it is to endear the Person to our hearts; He fills this position having gone a suffering way and, in that suffering, a basis has been laid in righteousness so that man may be cleansed to come into the position of sons in glory.

CFD Would the position that the Lord has taken as Apostle and High Priest of our confession emphasise His manhood? I was wondering whether the appeal to us to consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession would show how the Lord has moved from His own side to bring this all about. The Apostle would suggest the side of authority and power, the High Priest would have in mind moving into the inward side of things where all these features that you have been speaking about can function according to the mind of the Lord.

RT Yes, I think so. It is very beautiful that it is all centred in Jesus. Feelings come into it; our brother has referred to His being made perfect through sufferings. It is not that He fills an official position as an official but a Man as the Apostle and High Priest. Not only is the mind of God made known but the people are being brought into it through the operation of divine grace. A brother used to tell us that he heard Mr Raven say that as Apostle He maintains the calling at its height and as High Priest He maintains the people at the height of the calling, vol 16 p44. That is a very choice expression and worth thinking about, that as the Apostle He is from God’s side, He holds the whole system up; it will not break down. It broke down under Moses, but Christ as the Apostle maintains everything for God, that will never break down. But then in His priestly grace He considers for the people and He holds us in relation to the greatness of that calling. That is Jesus; it is not Moses and Aaron, they were the men who set it out in type, but there is a Man, Jesus, who is able to hold things for God, and there is no breakdown there. He suffered and, on the basis of His blood being shed and His being raised from the dead, He is maintaining a whole system of things for God; but in His grace He is touching the people. It is worth considering, is it not? “Consider”, it says, the heavenly calling and the One in whom it is all centred and set out.

JAP In the book of Numbers to which you referred, Moses and Aaron were quick to intercede when the breakdown came. Do they answer to what the Lord Jesus is currently maintaining on high and the Spirit here?

RT It is all part of what flowed out of the sufferings of Christ, and the Spirit here is the answer to the High Priest above. You think of the High Priest there above with the names on His breast and on His shoulders; the answer to it is that the Spirit is here serving us in view of the saints being maintained in the glory of that position above. It is a wonderful wealth we have come into and come into now in these very circumstances of weakness and breakdown that we feel so much.

ASH “To make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings”—“make perfect”—would it be right to say that He is looking for perfection in the leaders?

RT Well, He has found perfection in Christ, has He not?— “This is my beloved Son”, Matt 3: 17. But then that perfection is filled out in the position He has taken because of the way He has suffered. In His death and in His blood He has removed every stain of sin, and in those sufferings He has laid a basis in righteousness for God’s heart to come out to bless the sinner, but more than that, to bring sons to glory. What a God He is!

CFD Is the writer trying to elevate the thoughts of these Hebrew believers to see that, great as Moses was and high as he was in their estimation, what has been inaugurated and brought in through the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus, is greater than anything that ever went before? The glory connected with this system far exceeds anything that belonged to Judaism and he would try to lift their affections and their thoughts to come into that.

RT I think we can do with something of that today. What was set out in Moses and Aaron declined. When there was revival, there was a good priest and a good state, but things declined. Here things cannot decline; “consider the Apostle and High Priest ... Jesus”. Things are in good hands, not only is the system righteously established and maintained but the saints are in good hands. We are in the hands of this High Priest, this One who is known to us in His personal name, Jesus. So that, as you say, he is asking the saints to consider this, not consider how man has intruded or the enemy has spoiled, but to consider that in this Person, Jesus, things have been established for God, and the saints are held in relation to their living part in that system.

LDP I was concerned as to the expression ‘leader’ and notice it refers to the Acts where it is the originator and completer of things. I am thinking that it is distinctly Christ’s position.

RT There is only One, is there not? And there is nobody to take His place, “the leader of their salvation”. It does not depend on any other. As you follow through the footnote it says that the word applies only to Christ. It is used only a few times in the Scripture. “The originator of life ye slew”, Acts 3: 15. It is the same word and it applies only to Christ, ‘‘the leader of their salvation”. So that the whole race, you may say, takes character from the Leader of their salvation, and He has made the way through suffering that we may follow into the joy of what He is leading us into.

ASH Peter in Acts says, “Let the whole house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him, this Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ”, Acts 2: 36. He is all in all both Lord and Christ.

RT That is a good word—to know assuredly. We get shaken sometimes, but, “Let the whole house of Israel know assuredly”. God has placed the heavenly calling in good hands and all is proceeding under His hands. So we, those who are partakers of the heavenly calling, have to consider, too, the centre of the system, Jesus.

KNP Does this considering involve contemplation?

RT I think it means taking time. How many voices there are abroad today, how many influences are at work that would occupy our time and distract us from the system that God has established. “Consider the Apostle” fixes our attention on the centre of the heavenly calling and the assurance that it has all been brought to pass. It says, He is faithful in all God’s house.

JAP There is a note of Mr Darby’s on the word ‘consider’ in chapter 12. He says, ‘Weigh so as to judge its value, and sometimes in comparison with other things’.

RT It is a needed word for us—to be able to look away from what is around us; and later: “consider well” Him. But we have here that God has established everything in Christ and from that position the heavenly calling is to be enjoyed today.

CSE The Spirit of God wants us to make time to consider these things well, to consider Jesus. There is so much about Him. In this section He is the Leader and He is the Apostle and the High Priest, the same one Person. And there are many other titles and glories that are great enough to occupy our consideration, do you think?

RT Yes, but a Man bears them all, they all hang upon Jesus. It is very fine to think of it. The Apostle is needed, the authority and the principles and the grace that He has set out, are all needed, but there is a Man able to maintain the calling at its height. But that same Man is able to maintain the saints at the height of the calling. The combination of authority and grace that comes in in the expression of divine love is very beautiful.

DHM I was wondering about the expression, “holy brethren”.

RT It is a wonderful thing to be in the gain of, to look at the brother next to you and regard him as one of these holy brethren. We have all known what it is to be overtaken and fall below our dignity, but it is fine to pray for the brethren as part of the ‘holy brethren’. Though they may at the moment be outside the enjoyment of the position, we should be able to pray for them and regard them as holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, and encourage one another to come into it through considering that it is all centred in Jesus, the Man who would appeal to the affections of every believer.

LS In John 20 Mary comes to the Lord on resurrection ground. He says, “Touch me not”, and then He gives her that word, “Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”, v 17. That was the thought at the very beginning of resurrection, He was bringing many to Himself. She would touch Him alone but He would have the thought to bring others in.

RT Yes; and where were they, do you think, when the Lord gave that message about “my brethren”? They may have been at home, maybe discouraged, they may have thought that things had not worked out as expected. The Lord says, “Go to my brethren”. Mary knew who they were. It is like the holy brethren here. The saints are never to lose their true dignity and character and place in our affections though the circumstances that may come in that way for the moment may overwhelm us.

LMcF So priestly service would be in view; the sons are to be priestly.

RT It helps us to change our thoughts when we consider Jesus, the Man who has gone through and the Man who has established everything in relation to God. So that we need to be helped to pray for our brethren like this, and regard ourselves and one another as holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling. Maybe the world and self have intruded, maybe sin has been allowed, but God has His thoughts about them as the holy brethren; and as the Apostle and High Priest the system is still functioning through coming to Jesus for us to have our living part in it. So in chapter 12 it says “ye have come”. You have come to it now, I understand; we have not come to what could change but to what divine grace has established for present enjoyment and experience. So it says, “but ye have come”; it is not what you have not come to. There are many things, brethren, we ourselves feel that we have allowed and become ensnared in perhaps—things that we really have not come to. But we have come to what we spoke of earlier, to divine arrangements where God has set out His thoughts for the saints to be at home before Him.

CFD Is there a moral reason why he refers to Zion first: “ye have come to mount Zion”?

RT That is a beautiful area of things, is it not: “ye have come to mount Zion”. Mount Zion never breaks down. We have come to what God has established on the basis of His mercy and His love. There are some beautiful psalms about it, are there not? It says of all the tribes He chose Judah, the mount Zion which He loved, Ps 78: 68. I always remember that it was remarked in past ministry that we get two Jerusalems but only one Zion. Jerusalem refers to what God may have placed in relation to man’s responsibility, so He makes a new Jerusalem, but Zion refers to the purpose of His love and what He has established Himself apart from breakdown, that the saints through divine mercy are brought to have their living part in. What would you say about it?

CFD I think what you are saying is very helpful. How the saints at that time would have needed this and maybe how much we need it at the present moment. What you come to first is a whole system of things that is established by God, immovable, it cannot break down, it is all from His own side, mount Zion, absolute stability. They needed it and you feel that we are at a juncture where we need it ourselves.

RT I think it would be quite right to say that you can substitute the word ‘assembly’ for ‘mount Zion’—we have come to the assembly. We have come to an area of things that is the fruit of divine purpose; not the assembly on the side of breakdown but the assembly as in God’s purpose where we are to find our living part.

CFD I think your use of the word ‘assembly’ helps us. Maybe mount Zion is a little more mysterious to us, but relating it to coming in from God’s side involving His purpose helps. God can be hindered in no thought of His and He is going to see the assembly through and He is going to see it through now in our own time, do you think?

RT Yes, I think so; and we come to enjoy it. It is a fine thing to come to enjoy what divine love has prepared. It is all divine preparation—mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, angels, the assembly of the firstborn. Man had no hand in any of these things but through divine mercy we have been brought to have a living part in them where God has His arrangements and we are to find our home.

LDP Do these verses in Psalm 48 fit in: “Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King” (v 2); “Let mount Zion rejoice, let the daughters of Judah be glad, because of thy judgments. Walk about Zion, and go round about her: count the towers thereof”, vv 11, 12. We see failures, but we are told to walk about Zion, go round about her, count the towers.

RT How beautiful a vessel the assembly is as the fruit of divine purpose! That is what we have come to. As you say, beautiful in elevation. It is not part of man’s arrangements. That Psalm is very beautiful and encouraging; “go round about her”. How much there is to engage us in assembly experiences, the preciousness of this vessel, what she is to Christ, what she is to God; and we have come to have our part in it. The verse you quote is very beautiful—to go round about it, to consider her bulwarks. What attacks the enemy has made against it, but there she is still to be enjoyed today. It may be in smallness and outwardly broken circumstances, but we have come to what is divine in its conception and proceeds from the thoughts of divine love, and we have our part functioning in it. So as you come to mount Zion, as we come to the assembly, different principles affect us. We are in the world but worldly principles have no place in mount Zion or the assembly. We have come to what God has set out according to His own thoughts.

GA In 1 Kings 10 the queen of Sheba came and saw Solomon’s glory. It says, “I gave no credit to the words, until I came and mine eyes had seen; and behold, the half was not told me: in wisdom and prosperity thou exceedest the report that I heard”, v 7. Would that fit in with the position we are in now? It exceeded the report.

RT Yes, I think that is true. As we come to Jesus we see that He is beyond every comparison. But then He has a counterpart, we have come to mount Zion. It is not only that we love the Lord Jesus and have come to find Him as our Saviour, and come under His influence as our Lord and Head, but we come into what belongs to Him here. Mount Zion is the place where He is expressed, I think, the place that He chose. It says of all the tribes He chose Judah, the mount Zion which He loved. So that the assembly is the vessel of divine choice. We have not only come to Christ but we have come to the assembly where He is cherished and where we are to find our part and our enjoyment.

CSE There is another Psalm, 125: “They that confide in Jehovah are as mount Zion, which cannot be moved; it abideth for ever”, v 1. I am thinking of the link with the assembly. The Lord says, “On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”, Matt 16: 18. So mount Zion is something stable, immovable you might say.

RT Yes, that is not on earth, is it? Think of the nations and the countries and the systems here today that are changing; countries’ boundaries changing, their names changing, their legislation, it is all changing, but we have come to a system of things that proceeds from God and where His mind is expressed, and we have come to find our life in it now. I think that would help us to be assembly persons, assembly-minded persons. They are very scarce today. We are mixed up with worldly influences and all these other things but I think this would help us to be assembly-minded persons, that we are considering for God’s dwelling. Mount Zion is where He dwells, is it not?

JAP Another Psalm, by recovered men—the sons of Korah—brings out the thought that God loves Zion: “Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion”, Ps 87: 2. That is the place of assembling, is it not? I think you should say more about that.

RT If you read that verse it will tell us more.

JAP “Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion more than all the habitations of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God ... And of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; and the Most High himself shall establish her”.

RT It has been said before in this city that it is better to go to the meeting than to sit at home.

LMcF That is right. I think God’s sovereignty should affect us more. These sons of Korah were affected by the sovereign mercy of God, and He has taken us up and given us to have part in such a glorious system of things.

RT Yes. We have been taught that the gates of Zion represent the saints assembled and the habitations of Jacob being in our houses. There are many excuses for us to stay at home, we are tired and one thing and another, but it is better to come to the gates of Zion, is it not? We come into a fresh sense of mercy, and divine grace quickens our affections to see the arrangements that God has made and included us in those arrangements. Would that be right?

GDP I was thinking of the living side of things, the city of the living God. It is terrible to get into a half-dead state, is it not? Would that be fitting in with your thoughts?

RT Heavenly Jerusalem is where the sun is always shining, the city of the living God. It is what is above the clouds, above the breakdown. We have come to have part in what is elevated and where God finds His joy and where the saints can find their home.

GDP What would you say about ‘‘the assembly of the firstborn”? Does that fit in with the many sons brought to glory?

RT Yes. I am sure you remember better than I do what has been said about this verse, that mount Zion is the country, heavenly Jerusalem the capital, and the assembly of the firstborn the society, see J Taylor vol 40 p279. What would the country be without its society? That has always challenged me, that we have come into a heavenly society, come into divine arrangements, but we have come there into the assembly of the firstborn, everyone there with a robe on, everyone in their true dignity, everyone there clothed in the worth and the excellence of Christ for His eye and for His pleasure. So the assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven connects somewhat with what we were saying about the holy brethren, what the saints are in the thoughts of God and what divine grace has made us—the assembly of the firstborn. We are there with equal rights, nobody made to feel that they are not wanted or inferior, but they are equal and all like Christ. They are registered in heaven, they would not be on man’s registers—the offscouring of the world, Paul says (see 1 Cor 4: 13)—but the assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven. There is not time to go into the details of these things, but the centre of it all is Jesus again. It has come through a Man in whom the whole system is set out and who imparts His own character and features to the whole system in which through grace and mercy we have been called to have our part in now.

CFD Would registered in heaven involve the fact that they are citizens there? That is where their name is, that is where they belong. That is in a sense their point of origin. It seems to stand completely over against the idea of what belongs to the earth, do you think?

RT Unknown yet well known; unknown here, strangers below, citizens above; they are in this divine register. Think of how love has registered our names there!

CFD Would this involve the idea of the book of life? It might not be the same thing exactly but that is another area in which the name is registered in heaven, in the book of life, do you think?

RT Yes, and who registered it? It is very feeling to think of that. We could not register it ourselves. The father usually registers the birth, does he not but here it is our heavenly Father who has registered our names in heaven. What love and what grace has entered into it, and they are never to be removed. It is fine just now and again to take a look at the name that is registered there, despised by men, maybe persecuted. The Lord says, Blessed are ye when men persecute you, Matt 5: 11. It is fine then to have a sense that God has registered those names in heaven, not only mine but the names of my brethren.

CSE Where your name is registered is where you can vote. It is good to be on that roll. It is like “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens”, Phil 3: 20. It is very elevating to think of where we are recorded—a heavenly recording. That helps our spirits, do you think?

RT Yes, that is where we have rights, as you say. It is very good that being registered there gives us right to be there. Not that we can ever work up to it, but divine love has registered us there saying, This is where you belong, this is where I will have you, though we are denied our rights and persecuted below.

LDP Is that “my new name”, Rev 3: 12?

RT Well, we are getting into deep waters now. But it is the name that divine grace has placed upon us. It is not named after the Jacob order of things, it is Israel, is it not? God changed Jacob’s name. What marked Jacob was the man after the flesh, but the man of divine choice was called Israel, ‘prince’. It would be a name that is suited to that register. These things are, as we have said, to elevate us in our thoughts, and it has all been made possible as having come ‘‘to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling”, the righteous, unchallengeable basis on which the whole matter has been established, so that we may now in the presence of weakness know something of our heavenly part that divine love has purposed for us to enjoy.

NEW YORK

21^st May 1994

List of initials

G.Ashby, New York; C.F.Dadd, Plainfield; C.S.Elliott, New York; A.S.Hinkson, New York; D.H.McFarlane, New York; L.McFarlane, New York; G.D.Pfingst, Plainfield; J.A.Petersen, Plainfield; K.N.Pye, New York; L.D.Phillips, New York; L.Stank, New York; R.Taylor, Barnet

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