THE EFFECT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT HERE

N. J. Henry

Luke 2: 8–14; Matthew 1: 23; Isaiah 8: 5–8; Ephesians 2: 19–22; Colossians 1: 24–27

NJH I wondered if we could consider together the effect of the divine presence here. We are rightly fed with what lies ahead, the great blessings that we will enter into, eternal blessings, but what effect has the divine presence here on earth? I had an impression when the Lord came in last Lord’s day at the Supper that He had regard for the effects of the Spirit’s presence in the assembly. Normally, we have in our minds our side, proving ourselves, keeping clear of the world, and being preserved for the taking part in the Lord’s supper, but it struck me that the Lord seemed to indicate when He came in that He was having regard for the presence of the Spirit here. I would just turn aside a moment; I think the greatest lack there is in Christendom, in which we have part, is that the preaching often is separated from the mystery, the assembly, the body, because it gives persons a sense of eternal security. But the divine presence on earth is a supreme matter and demands exercise in my soul as to whether I am the subject of that work and lay myself open to it. It is a great matter to see the great effect that God has in mind.

In the first scripture it is announced by the angel, it says “an angel of the Lord was there by them” and then with the angel “a multitude of the heavenly host”, but what they were announcing was what God was going to do among men. Immanuel involves ‘God with us’ as the footnote clearly tells us, so that God was committing Himself in this amazing matter, the incarnation, “for today a Saviour has been born to you”. I think we have to lay hold of what God has done as to the earth; God is using the earth. Then in Matthew it is Emmanuel, the One who had come in; God was there in Christ. That is quoted from Isaiah 7: 14, the reference to calling His name Immanuel. Then immediately there is a reference to the rejection in type, of the Spirit in the waters of Shiloah (Isaiah 8: 6). I think Immanuel’s land seems to suggest the area of the Spirit and the warning to us as to whether the Spirit would be quenched. Publicly the Spirit is quenched, but it is also a word to us that we make full recognition of the Spirit.

Thankfully the Spirit remains. So I read in Ephesians that through the Spirit’s presence there is “a habitation of God in the Spirit”. We need to be in the gain of these things, and then finally the reference to the great thought of “Christ in you the hope of glory”, that is among the nations, and we know that “Christ in you” makes way for the new man in Colossians in which Christ is everything and in all. That has been developed through the divine presence.

JW I think it will be helpful to enquire into. Do you think, through the presence of the Spirit here, what was seen in the life of Christ, that character is to be continued?

NJH That is good because if divine Persons commit Themselves to something they do not draw back from it, whatever the opposition is. If Christ is introduced, what is morally linked to that blessed Man must remain on the earth; it cannot go from there, and it is in the Spirit as you say. It shows a continual line going on, it is not given up because of the departure in this dispensation which is the worst departure of all; it has happened in the church, from the highest truth to the greatest departure of all. What is introduced by God goes through.

DJW Is it significant that in the previous section there is an area in which there was no room for Christ in the inn? Over against that you have the shepherds in the country abiding without, and there seemed to be suitable conditions there for this manifestation do you think? It was outside all that was proceeding in Bethlehem.

NJH Yes, that is good. What the world did only enhanced the glory of Christ because there was no room in the inn. The angels say that was a sign, the Babe wrapped in swaddling-clothes. What God introduces, whatever the opposition, it cannot take away from the glory of that introduction. We have to remember that in the conditions in which we live there is no room for Christ.

PM Did God come into His own testimony in the incarnation and He must remain in that testimony right through to the end? It was not a carry over exactly from what had been before but God came in, “God with us”. He came into His own testimony personally in Jesus, and now remains in the person of the Spirit.

NJH I am glad you referred to that because that enforces the thought of what goes through; it is God’s testimony and it is about Christ. Seen of angels comes in as we know in the New Testament, and here they must have seen something new that was never there before, and involved a multitude of heavenly hosts recognising that there was a testimony that God was entering into that had never been there before. That was an amazing thing.

PM The greatness of it just fills my soul that I should be called to have a part in it, called to have a part in something which God has personally entered into.

NJH Yes, and continued in because a divine Person is here in the Spirit and, even if what is public does not recognise it, what benefit we find in doing so. We must recognise that that testimony is the testimony of God and is going through because the Spirit is here.

MIW Is what we are saying confirmed by the expression at the end of verse 14, “good pleasure in men”? You might say from one perspective it would have been sufficient to say, good pleasure in this Man, Christ, the One who was coming in, but does it suggest the thought of what is to continue in “good pleasure in men”? What was being introduced was to continue through the presence of the Spirit in which there was to be divine pleasure.

NJH The angels must have expressed the displeasure of God in the Old Testament because angels were used throughout the Old Testament, in the giving of the law and appearing to men. The angels were involved in that, so they knew the displeasure of God generally in the Old Testament, but corning now to something that was being introduced involving the pleasure of God in men. Now that is the effect of a divine presence. So it shows that once God comes into a thing and commits Himself to the testimony there will be “good pleasure in men”.

DEB Would you say a little more as to what you have in mind in the two words “to you”? Is that restrictive in some way or is it sovereignty?

NJH I think it goes back to what was said, it is such men, “good pleasure in men”, persons who are going to receive this testimony. As far as the world went He came in and lived outside of it, and He left the world. He went out of the world. We know that the world had no part in the forty days. He went out of the world, He departed out of the world as Moses and Elias said on the mount; He went out publicly on the cross. The world had no more understanding of what had come in, but what was indelibly impressed on these persons during the forty days and into our dispensation were those that were “has been born to you” and those that God would find pleasure in. Otherwise I would not like to limit that.

PJW In John’s gospel it says “as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God”, John 1: 12. Does that involve what you are bringing before us and continues in the generation?

NJH Yes, that is a good scripture to bring in. John would point out that if persons were to receive the testimony of God, He has to work in them. Naturally they would not understand it, but He has to work in their souls to receive that testimony. It is good to bring that in, “to you”. What a privilege, beloved brethren, to be amongst the “you”, that God had you in mind. We speak about God having us in mind; we speak about being foreknown. We go to Paul’s epistles and we find that we are foreknown, marked out beforehand, so many things that assure us; that is the “you” I think, “to you”. What do you think?

DEB What a privilege it is to be in divine purpose.

NJH Exactly, and divine purpose comes into time, to persons here on the earth. It is on the earth that the Spirit is given to us while we are here. Thank God we have the Spirit now so that we can lay hold of these blessings.

JW What would you say as to the outward smallness and weakness in the circumstances in which God chose to set His testimony? The incoming of Christ here was outwardly weak, was it not? I wondered if you would say something about the outward circumstances in which God has chosen to set His testimony.

NJH Well, that is the way of the Lord. He did not approach the city, the shepherds were abiding without in that country. You can see how God took account of the conditions publicly. I think the Lord had regard for that, even before He made Himself known, he had regard for the conditions generally. Abraham was alone when he was called. God starts with what is small. It is not derogatory for God. He can start with smallness. He starts with one man. That is what He has done through the incarnation; He started with one blessed Man. He does not need numbers; He is the only One who can cope with numbers. I think that is one thing, we feel the loss of brethren but we are closer to one another, and I think that is of the Lord.

HTF Why is it in David’s city? I wondered if God had in mind the area where the Lord would be. The thought of the city is carried through, is it not?

NJH He came as of the son of David. In Matthew He is son of Abraham, son of David, and when He came in He must have considered everything. At the end of the gospel He refers to all the prophets and all the Scriptures. He must have been over everything that was promised of God, and all the departure from the promises and how Satan had come in. The Lord would feel all that. In fact He wept over the city, Jerusalem, the feelings of Christ expressed on such a favoured city, having turned away and not knowing the day of their visitation. This was the day of their visitation, Christ coming in, “God with us”.

DNS I wondered if the thought in the “babe wrapped in swaddling-clothes”, meant that what was infinitely precious to heaven, should be preserved and protected here because everything for man was going to be in that One.

NJH Yes, it is in this scripture that Gabriel comes, not the side of power or might, as a military angel, but it is the priestly angel. It was not given to angels to care for Him; He had a mother to care for Him. I think the swaddling-clothes give us some idea as to even what the words of the angel were, as we read in Matthew’s account where it is given to Mary to care for that blessed Person, coming in at the weakest point. How touching! What does Mr Darby’s hymn say, ‘in human infancy’. It was not a great array of maturity in that sense. As to the Person, of course, there was no growth as to the Person; we have to protect who He was and ever is, but coming into manhood at the weakest point. It is sufficient to touch our hearts. The shepherds were caring persons. In the city there was no care for anything, far less Christ or His people, but the shepherds would be caring persons. Have you something more in mind about such persons being used?

JW Well I just wondered if the character of the testimony is to continue that way. The way it began, the way it is to continue, and the way it will end. I recall Mr James Taylor saying that at the end of the dispensation the moral features that will be seen as they were seen in the beginning, that was their dependence and occupation with Christ. The feature of dependence is seen here in the Lord as a babe, is it not?

NJH That is good, and dependent on persons who have hearts that care. To those in the beginning of the Acts, the chief matter in their minds was to protect what they had received from the Lord. They would not allow anything to impair it, and I think as to the matter of care that our brother has brought up, we need to care for what we have; it is precious. In fact what we have the world cannot buy. It does not want it. It is like Ahab, he could not continue what Naboth had. What we have in our souls needs to be cared for and protected; as Paul says, “the simplicity of the Christ”, you have to protect what you have in purity.

DH The older idea of a shepherd is hardly known now, is it? Many years ago shepherds actually abode with their sheep at the shepherds’ booths which are mentioned in scripture. Is that something of what you have in mind?

NJH Well that is good. Whatever number in the flock, it might be small. Our brother has spoken of smallness, a small flock; it has to be protected, we have to protect our local brethren. These things come down to that.

PJW Is it significant that Paul speaks of the flock, “wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God”, Acts 20: 28? I was thinking of what you said as to caring. The Holy Spirit there is connected to what is set to shepherd.

NJH Well that is the effect of the presence of the Spirit; that is a good touch, it is exactly what is needed. We need to know the Holy Spirit comes into the matter. It is our responsibility to protect what is of Christ, either His Person here or what He is in the saints; there is a great wealth in the saints. I have just noticed, and maybe we can get help before we leave Luke 2—It says, “Glory to God in the highest”. It is not the divine name as referred to in chapter 1, verse 35, “The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee”. I wondered if in the mind of the angel there was going to be a much higher level of response to God secured. It is glory to God in the assembly in Ephesians (see Ephesians 3: 21). It is as if the angels would not know, it was still clothed in mystery, but the whole level of the service of God was going to be raised to a new level. Would that be right?

JW I noticed it was “a multitude of the heavenly host”, so it should really be of a heavenly character. It is going to be “good pleasure in men” because it must be of a heavenly character?

NJH That is good. It was no earthling, it was human form but no earthling was born.

RHB I was just wondering whether the effect of the divine presence was to bring earth in consort with heaven, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men”. The multitude of the heavenly host were praising God, were they not? The book closes with a company that were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. That was secured through this, was it?

NJH Yes, I think it is going on to that. Everything was going to be superseded by this action. Whilst David reached very great heights in his service Godward at the end of 1 Chronicles, there was something infinitely greater. I am thinking of Hebrews 2 that He was made some little inferior to angels on account of the sufferings of death, then He is crowned with glory and honour, then He makes known God’s name as if it is going on to that. There was just a suggestion that such a Person coming in, there had to be a much higher level of response Godward.

RHB As if redemption underlies that which is not connected with angels. I was thinking of the song in Revelation where the angels have their part in it, but the appreciation of Christ in its fulness is for those who have been the subjects of His redemption.

NJH I am glad you have brought that in because the principle of the depth, that dimension that comes in, really is accomplished through redemption, so there is the feeling side expressed in men that you could not get in angelic beings, however much they serve continually the will of God.

RMB There could be no peace on earth, there could be no pleasure in men until God Himself had been glorified, do you think? 1 suppose that would be a reference primarily to the work of the Lord Jesus glorifying God.

NJH Yes. He corrected the whole thing that the enemy had distorted. Satan first of all displaced God in the heart of man, “ye will be as God” (Genesis 3: 5), but then the next thing was that there was murder in the first family on earth. The firstborn slew Abel, so there was no peace, and there was no glory to God in the race after Adam, but here there is a new start for God in this Person, the Lord Jesus.

RMB In connection with your thought as to the effect of the experience of God’s presence, do you think that if we had a deeper sense of the presence of God we would be more concerned to maintain His glory?

NJH Yes, absolutely. I think that is one thing that is within our responsibility to protect His glory. I think it is a very important thing. I am speaking for myself, we bring things down too much to our side and we can be satisfied; we think we are all right and settle down, but a spiritual man never settles down. If you look at the latter letters of these men, Mr Darby, Mr Stoney and the others you find they are constantly maintaining really what is due to God, the glory of God being protected. There is a freshness in the believer that you cannot get anywhere else, so I think it is important that we do have to protect the glory of God.

JW Would holiness have a part in that? You have referred to the sterile conditions that existed here into which the Lord came. There is an emphasis on holiness in this gospel. I wondered if that bore on what you are saying.

NJH It does. The Holy Spirit had to do with the provision of holy conditions. This gospel refers to Elizabeth and Mary and then Simeon and Anna. What a link; they were conscious of the Spirit. The moral side must be maintained and I think the sense of the divine presence has the most effect on us morally. The only way we can really repent is in the presence of God because you have to have a standard before you. You cannot have yourself before you; in repentance you come into the presence of God and you see the Holy One there. Jesus Christ the Righteous. You say, well “he is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world”, 1 John 2: 2. There is a standard before God and I repent in relation to that standard, is that right?

JW I am sure it is the presence of God that produces repentance. We are not really fit for His presence as we are. I was thinking of Peter in this gospel. He says, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, Lord”, Luke 5: 8. That was the presence of the Lord.

NJH ‘Full of sin’, Peter says.

PM I was thinking of the dove bringing the olive leaf to Noah. I wondered if it linked with Simeon and Anna and these persons at that time. It was not part of the earth under judgment, but the new earth had not yet been seen, but there was that which was carried through in persons of a holy character that the Spirit could use in view of a new earth.

NJH Yes, that is good. It was certainly God’s thought. God would give through Moses in Genesis 1 what things took place, the waters receding on the earth, then there was springing up of life, and God knew it was good; then the Spirit brings the testimony of that to Noah. I think it is important to see that. I think what you said earlier as to testimony, it is a living testimony that God set on. So it says here in Matthew, “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel”. What words these were.

MRC I was thinking of what was carried through. I like the expression. There are persons here who name Him. They were the persons who Azariah spoke to, “Jehovah is with you while ye are with him”, 2 Chronicles 15: 2. Again Haggai said, “I am with you, saith Jehovah of hosts”, Haggai 2: 4. They are remarkable expressions, are they not? They are persons to whom God can make known His thoughts. Do you think we should covet to be among them, persons with whom God can carry things through?

NJH Yes, I am glad you have referred to that because it comes back to individual responsibility, that God will be with us if we are with Him. Here it seems as if it is “to you”, a certain prophetic touch, which looks down the whole dispensation to our day. He committed Himself in this sense to manhood in Christ, that is what God did. He did not create persons for another world only, but He introduced and committed Himself to manhood in Christ here, and that is a glorious matter, “God with us”. That came into the presence of men, and thank God through divine working, it is expressed or manifested to us, “God with us”.

MRC “To you”, was that, to the shepherds literally? That is, persons who were abiding without. They had no relationship to what was proceeding in the area where Christ was refused.

NJH Exactly, where the murderous spirit was. Others wanted to exterminate this at the early stage, but the shepherds were without, they did not have part in the counsel. It is remarkable that God took up such. Later, Joseph of Arimathaea did not have part in their counsel. There is great benefit from separation; it is not a negative matter, but we come into all the blessing of divine Persons by keeping separate from the systems around us.

DJW I was just wondering whether Matthew is significant in that he starts with “Emmanuel”, meaning ‘God with us’, and he ends his gospel by saying, “I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age”, Matthew 28: 20. In the few verses before that it says, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations”, as if the expression by the Spirit would be continued on the earth.

NJH Matthew does not record His ascension. The Lord Jesus says, “I am with you all the days until the completion of the age”. That is a wonderful encouragement. The brethren need encouraging, they need lifting up, that God has committed Himself and He will not draw back from it. When God said to Joshua that He would be with him, “I will not leave thee, neither will I forsake thee” (Joshua 1: 5), He committed Himself to the Spirit of Christ in expression here. That is a great encouragement for us.

MRC I refer to Haggai again, “The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you”, Haggai 2: 5. That was a long time afterwards; the people were in remnant conditions having come back, and yet God was still faithful to what He had committed Himself to.

NJH That confirms what we were saying earlier as to the remnant conditions, only two tribes came back, and where are the rest? We do not know; God knows, but He commits Himself, that His Spirit and the word that He covenanted with them should remain with them. That is a great encouragement. Do not let us give up anything. I was thinking this morning as to Hezekiah. He stripped the gold of the doors of the house of God that he had personally

overlaid (2 Kings 18: 16). It is the best that we give up. Mr Stoney often said it was the top shoots that go first. We must remember, hold to the best. I do not want to be negative in Isaiah 8 but it is so sobering that it comes in so soon after chapter 7 where Immanuel comes in. The reference to “thy land, O Immanuel!” is typical that the presence of the Spirit is ignored, and not held to, in the profession.

DEB The name “God with us” becomes a kind of claim, does it not? Someone utters the words saying, God is with us. That is a challenge as to whether we can say that or justify it.

NJH Well I would not like to use the expression but I use it because divine Persons use it, the angels used it. Immediately we make claims we spoil what we have and it will affect what we have. I think we just want to be assured. My feeling is, let us provide the conditions for the presence of the Lord and be conscious of it. The only reason we are together is that the Lord is here; I do not see any other reason, or it is just exchanging views that might amuse us or entertain us. The thing that holds us together, beloved brethren, in the day we are in, is the presence of the Lord through the Spirit of God. Where the Spirit is free and recognised is where I want to be.

JW The presence of the Spirit, the Spirit is here, is He not? The exercise would be on our part to make way for Him, and also to locate the Spirit. Mr James Taylor spoke about that in his earlier ministry, locating the Spirit.

NJH Yes, that is a good word, locate the Spirit. It is a solemn matter that we have to prove ourselves, that the divine presence means everything to us. Do not let us forget that, the divine presence should mean everything to us. That guides your step. The ground must be right. Any inconsistencies would be carried in a priestly way; but where is the Lord? Where is the Spirit of God free? That is where we should be.

DJW I was interested in the reference to the waters of Shiloah which flow softly. You get the reference in Kings to the soft gentle voice. I wondered whether it was in line with the dispensation in which we are, and the way that the Spirit does in effect impose Himself on us, but it is a sensitive matter.

NJH That is good. He does not force His Person. If you make room He will take it. Think of the Spirit of God. We use the words ‘grieving’ or ‘quenching’ as to the Spirit; it does not suggest anything assertive but whatever room we give He will take. Let us give more room to the Spirit, locate the Spirit. They refused it, and what came on them were these mighty waters that were used in God’s ways to overtake them. He did not allow them to lose everything. In Matthew we have where the waves covered the ship, it nearly floundered, but it could not be shipwrecked because Christ was in it. That was what the enemy was attempting here, these evil kings, Rezin and Remaliah, come in like mighty waters. We do not want that, but we want to appreciate “the waters of Shiloah which flow softly”.

JW We cannot escape the governmental ways of God in the public position today, can we? We are all part of it. Feelings come out in the prophet, “O Immanuel!” Do you think, as feeling the public position, we should feel the displacement of the Spirit?

NJH There is a governmental side we have to accept and feel. But it is a great thing that it is even to the neck, there is still something there held that speaks of Immanuel’s land. It impressed me that it was that in which the continuation of Christ takes place. God will recover the whole thing but at the moment it appears overrun publicly and we are to feel that.

PM Would you link the gentle flowing of the Spirit’s service with what the Lord says in John, “whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak”, John 16: 13? I wondered if that was a link with Immanuel’s land, that there is a living flow here in the presence of the Spirit to maintain us in keeping with the glorified Christ?

NJH There is a flow suggested there. Christ spoke what He heard, and now the Spirit speaks what He hears. It is a wonderful thing, there is a flow there, “the waters of Shiloah which flow softly”.

PM Would it not lift the level of our gatherings together, that we assemble together in the consciousness that a divine Person is still speaking, and He is speaking in relation to what is proceeding in another world altogether.

NJH “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”, Revelation 3: 22. It is important to be in alignment with the present word of the Lord. We should go on to Ephesians. This is taking place now. It says, “all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord”, and I understand that that will continue. But “a habitation of God in the Spirit” would be peculiar to our time here.

AJMcS That is the way I have understood it. It is an extremely testing thing to form part of the habitation of God, do you think?

NJH Exactly. It gives you the impression that the Trinity is there, the habitation of God in the Spirit. Because the Spirit is here, the other divine Persons are immediately available to us, do you think?

AJMcS The ministry in this area during the last few weeks has borne very much on the house of God and God’s presence here. I just feel the test of it for myself that as we come together today God Himself would be here, therefore there ought to be that which is suitable and respectful and reverent in His presence.

NJH Absolutely. How do we deport ourselves? How do we present ourselves? We do not want to be critical in a meeting like this, but some persons come and maybe in their deportment show that they are not really conscious of the divine presence they are coming into. That is just a simple matter.

AJMcS The Spirit would certainly have us to maintain a right judgment of Christendom which is essential, but I am asking myself, what is the Spirit really saying? What is the Spirit saying to the brethren now? I think he is really warning us as to Laodicea. He wants us to get back to what we once were, but that is only from a younger man. I am sure the older brethren who are nearer to God would know better.

NJH There has to be a development of bridal affection for Christ. It has been said in ministry that we need to develop in bridal affection for Christ and in principle say, “Come” to Him. That cannot be developed either in an ecclesiastical world or any other world; it is outside of the world so that a moral element has to be in ministry. If it is from the Lord there is a moral edge to it and I want to be in keeping with it. I think what has come in now about the divine presence is most important; we are sober in the meeting and there should not be any feature to distract. I think we should consider in the divine presence here how we should deport ourselves or appear. That is how I feel, particularly in the assembly.

AJMcS It is not the first time it has been said lately and it is right. God has saved us from our sins, made us sons of God and has given us the Spirit. Surely we can comport ourselves in a way that is suitable to Him.

NJH Yes. We are stating at the moment how we should be in the meeting, that we should respect there is a divine presence there, then we all want to contribute to that. In the day to come when those in Dan go to offer, you would see the person going down and taking whatever it was he was offering, and that would be on his way to the divine presence; you would be impressed with the person coming all that distance prepared to sacrifice to his God.

We should be in keeping with that. If we are going, we should be marked by the “hidden man of the heart” as Peter says (1 Peter 3: 4). There is something in you.

HTF “That is my master” is the final word the servant has in Genesis 24 and Rebecca responds to that in view of Isaac’s presence; the heavenly man’s presence was immediately in prospect, and that governed her behaviour immediately.

NJH That is a good scripture because she immediately veils herself. Mr James Taylor said she would have eyes for no other and she was the only one for Isaac’s eyes. That is a good thing to touch, a positive thing.

JSG In Ephesians 2 Jesus Christ is the cornerstone in the building. Is He to determine everything in the way of manhood according to God? I just wondered if we are maintained in appreciation of what Christ is to God secretly, then the effects will show as we gather, will they not?

NJH The young people should be assured of our love, but just think of the divine presence, if the Lord is there, how should I be? Now to go to Colossians where it says, “God would make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you the hope of glory”.

RHB There are several references in scripture to Christ being in you. We are accustomed to the thought of the Holy Spirit taking up His abode in us, but just give us your thought as to what is involved in Christ being in the believer.

NJH Well, I do not know if I can say much. Mr Darby says that if I am in Christ, which God has done, Christ is in me. That is a wonderful matter, Christ in you. I think it is the basis of the new man; Christ in you is the basis of the new man, that is chapter 3.

RHB Does it involve both character and operation?

NJH Well character would be how it would come out, the character would come out in the new man. One thing that is helpful is, God could create the new man by itself, for nothing is impossible with God, but He creates the new man in the place of the old man. Now that is wonderful. In the very place of the old man He creates the new man. We put off the old and put on the new. Now that new, I understand, comes from Christ in you.

RHB I thought that. What you have just said takes us back to your first scripture, “Glory to God” and “good pleasure in men”. If man had become corrupted by sin and that was the end of it, it would appear that God had been defeated, but the formation of the new man is the answer to the fall and God is glorified in that.

NJH Exactly and it is “the riches of the glory of this mystery”. What God has secured for that now; is that not wonderful?

DJH So we have been speaking of God with us, but this is Christ in you. I am just affected by it. I suppose the reference that you have made, “the riches of the glory of this mystery” is astounding.

NJH It is astounding and it is “among the nations”. God is not limited. Think of that, the new man coming out in expression, and we know what the old man is; we have had enough of him. He has done nothing but harm. You have to understand the moral meaning of it. The new man is Christ morally continued in the saints, not Christ personally.

AJMcS It is absolutely right as I understand it. What characterised the nations at the end of Romans 1 characterises the Christian profession now, but in contrast to that “Christ in you” means He has that place in my heart and He comes out in character.

NJH I am glad you have referred to the beginning of Romans. In that epistle the moral state of the nations is addressed, the immorality and lawlessness that marked them, yet you find that God is doing something, “the riches of the glory of this mystery ... Christ in you the hope of glory”. I think that is remarkable.

JW What do you understand by “the hope of glory”?

NJH I would be glad of further help.

RHB Is it connected with what is said of Christ personally in Timothy, He was received up in glory? Is it connected with the mystery of piety, and that is the combination of God’s work that is here on the earth, that what is of Christ must be embraced in that way?

NJH Yes, that is interesting because 1 Timothy 3 refers to God as manifest in flesh, that is in Christ, and then being received up in glory. Something of the assembly’s reception being ‘in glory’ is a wonderful thought.

DJR I was going to ask if it would be involved in those who love His appearing, linking with the hope?

NJH Yes, although it seems to have a present bearing. I agree with what you say as to those who “love his appearing” (2 Timothy 4: 8) for whom the crown of righteousness is laid up. In a certain sense it is anticipative, your love and your walk are in keeping with it. It seems to be the hope of glory now.

AJMcS It is said to be the pledge, the guarantee, of what will be, yet it characterises how the Christian is at present. As has been said, the hope of glory involves the pledge that the believer has and his final destination with Christ.

NJH That links in a certain sense with our brother’s reference to loving His appearing. I like your idea of pledge; he has that already, that he will never be outside of it. He is retained for glory, and I think “Christ in you” is the most wonderful matter, “the hope of glory”.

PM Does it give some impression that this is what divine Persons had in view right from the commencement, that there would be man in whom Christ was seen and expressed? Is it the fulfilment of the word in Genesis, “Let us make man”?

NJH All divine thoughts are carried forward. When it comes to the new man in chapter 3 there is no other distinction except of Christ, “Christ is everything, and in all” (Colossians 3: 11). It means that every other distinction has gone. You can understand that if Christ is in you, you are in the good of that and you understand that glorious matter, then human distinction has gone, it is not there.

JW Paul had this in view in his own service, he says, “whom we announce, admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may present every man perfect in Christ”, Colossians 1: 28. It seems he had that before him, that Christ really should be seen in the saints and there would be a complete result, “present every man perfect in Christ”.

NJH Yes, it is the Name you set forward in the preaching. Everything is in Christ. There is no distinguishing with the preacher or anyone else. That has all gone and as Paul says he was admonishing, “admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may be present every man perfect in Christ”. It was a glorious object he had.

JW You do not appeal to the old man in the preaching, do you?

NJH No. You cannot appeal to him because he is going to be put off. He has been removed already, and for each person as they come into the truth.

CS The dispensation in which we have our part is in faith. Knowledge is not faith, and those who came into the gain and enjoyment of the divine presence were distinguished by the Lord by their faith. Jude speaks of “building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God”, Jude 20, 21. I just wondered if we might see that, that we might know a great deal, but faith would bring us into the enjoyment of the divine presence.

NJH Yes. Faith you might say is the basis for everything in our relations with God, but then the Spirit has come, a divine Person has come, and the Spirit works within that framework of faith. For instance, in Ephesians 3 it says, “that the Christ may dwell, through faith”, Ephesians 3: 17. We do not leave it but the Spirit takes us into what faith sets before our soul.

CS We need to abide in it, do we not? We see the wisdom of Paul seeking to rekindle what was in Timothy, building him up on that line of faith.

NJH Yes, we walk by faith but then we walk by the Spirit. The Spirit is a divine Person here and He does not work outside of faith. I am not saying he would not in the word, in the glad tidings, arrest, convict and so on, but He works formatively in the believer. That will take you further than faith, but you do not lose faith. That is how I understand it. We need faith as long as we are here, but you look to the Spirit. You come in faith and the Spirit takes you on and takes you into spiritual things.

CS So they go along together.

NJH Yes, I think you would need to carry them together. We need to be sober but we are still in the time of faith; we are not in sight yet, but I think on the earth faith will always be required in some sense but certainly this is the dispensation of it.

JW Yes. I was thinking of this matter of presenting Christ. Really the exercise in this epistle is that everything should be in accordance with Christ, according to Christ. In speaking of the effect of the divine presence, what marks the divine presence is in accordance with Christ, and we should keep that before us, should we?

NJH Yes. Divine operations through Christ and the Spirit have brought the revelation of God near to men, but He has not done it by setting aside or compromising His holiness. Everything is in Christ. The point of reconciliation is in Christ.

AM I was just thinking of this expression “the riches of the glory”, Ephesians 1: 18. Do we not need a sense of the glory of what has been secured in the presence of divine Persons here to keep it living in our souls? It is the glory of that, is it not, what God has secured?

NJH Yes, it is requirement of glory, the demand of glory that God has committed Himself unreservedly and upheld and maintained and enlarged the whole sphere of glory for His own pleasure. Christ did that at the cross, maintained the rights of God and glorified Him in doing so. Here it is in men. The old has been set aside and the new has been brought in. It is a glorious matter.

Reading at Havering
14 July 2007

KEY TO INITIALS

R. H. Brown

N. J. Henry

C. Smith

R. M. Brown

D. J. Hutson

D. N. Smith

D. E. Burr

A. Martin

J. Walkinshaw

M. R. Cook

Martin

M. Webster

H. T. Franklin

A. J. McSeveney

D. J. Wright

J. S. Gray

D. J. Roberts

J. Wright

D. Hawgood