John 1: 1-3, 14-18; Hebrews 1: 1-4; Colossians 1: 12-20

CHRIST'S GLORY

D.J.H. I was much encouraged by the hymn which our brother gave out (Hymn 400) because I felt that we should be occupied together with the glory of the Person of Christ. We are affected by the pathway of Jesus as here in lowly grace, moving amongst men, the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God. But behind it all is glory of His Person. The more we consider the greatness and the glory of who He is in Person, the more we are affected by the place He has taken in lowly manhood. Each of scriptures refers to His glory in creation. I feel we could speak over them together to get a impression of the greatness of His Person.

In the first reference we have, "In the beginning was the Word"'; God Himself, as it has been said, becoming His own testimony. God was here. As it says elsewhere, "the mystery of piety is great; God has been manifested in flesh", 1 Tim 3: 16. It is not here the question of sin and sins, but in order to make God known and to make Him know in the ways in which He is to be known in blessed relationships. Then in Hebrews we again have reference to His creatorial power; and it says, "having made by himself the purification of sins". God has not had to rely upon any but Himself in relation to that great matter in order that His eternal purpose might be secured. And then I thought in Colossians to see that of such a Person, it says, "And he is the head of the body". What a place the assembly has as such an One stands in relation to it - "he" emphatic "is the head of the body, the assembly; who is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead". I feel the need of help as much as any in speaking rightly of these things and gaining some further impression of the glory of Christ.

L.McF. We feel our limitations as we approach a section like this. It says, "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being". I was impressed by the verse, that the whole matter of life is related to the knowledge of that Person.

D.J.H. That is very wonderful. It must include ourselves. I remember being impressed at the birth of a baby that not one thing has received being without Him. As to life, it says here, "In him was life". John speaks of it in his epistle, "the eternal life, which was with the Father", 1 John 1: 2 - "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". That life - we are dependent upon Him, so that in that sense we are all dependent upon this Person. How great He is, you are thinking?

L.McF. Yes: life according to God relates to the Person of Jesus, and having had to do with Him in a personal way. We through grace come into this enjoyment. I think it is an enjoyment of life that you speak of as eternal life. Is that right?

D.J.H. Yes. John has that particularly in mind, does he not? The Lord Jesus introduces it in chapter 3, dependent again upon divine operation in new birth, but then that the light of God might be received and that there might be an answer to it in life; "whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal", John 3: 16. That is this Person, but it is the Person who has come into manhood and remains in manhood forever - the wonder of it.

J.A.P. The beginning here goes back before Genesis! Would you say something about that?

D.J.H. I was struck with an impression that another gave us, quoting an old brother who said as to the beginning here, that He was in the beginning before the beginning began. It is a remarkable expression, but it is just a simple way of conveying this, is it not? We are finite creatures, and we have to think in terms of beginning; we are creatures of time, but this is outside of time altogether. Genesis 1 to which to which you refer - "In the beginning God created" - is a question of time, and when we read it in the light of this scripture it was this Person in any case who created. But He was there before, before the beginning began in that sense.

H.J.G. He was included in the expression "Let us make man".

D.J.H. Yes. Divine counsel entering into that, but having in mind that He Himself would come into manhood. All that could enter into what is said in Colossians, that all things were created by Him and for Him, which would involve that He Himself would come into manhood, as has been said that God would have a vessel here in which He could express His feelings. That is what it was in Jesus, a vessel here in which God could express His feelings. Think of the compassions of God, think of the tears of Jesus; it is the feelings of God coming into expression in a vessel here. For that reason, among others, He took a body that God's feelings might come into expression. That is not going too far?

J.R.C. I think it is something for us to think about, the simplicity of Scripture, yet the depth is there. Man in his poor mind thinks he can compass what is eternal. For the sake of the young folks with us and all of us let us just accept that matter, "In the beginning was the Word".

D.J.H. Yes. In the beginning He was. And however far back we can go to what we might call a beginning He was, He was there before. As it has been said He was in existence eternal, was He not?

J.R.C. In a day when God's rights are ignored, set aside by man and substituted by man's cleverness, this is what we hold on to. Is that right?

D.J.H. Yes. And that why John particularly as writing for our day, as we speak, brings it in in this way. When all that man is as to his thoughts and cleverness and development, whatever it be, and all that has come in through the mind of man intruding into the things of God, John brings us back to this, to a point where there is One who has never changed.

A.S.H. It says, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". The thought of life and light they both go together.

D.J.H. Yes. The life of God was here. That expression is used, is it not, as to persons being estranged from the life of God, (see Eph 4: 18). It was what came into expression in Jesus, and men are estranged from it. Apart from the work of God, apart from new birth, we would be estranged from it, but through infinite grace we have an appreciation of the life of God and what it was as coming into expression in Jesus. What light it is to our souls!

J.A.P. This scripture was much used in the 'eternal sonship' question because it is never said in the Bible that the Lord Jesus is the eternal Son; it says, "In the beginning was the Word". We have to bow to that. It helps us if we do, do you think? What is the difference between "attendants on the Word" in Luke 1 and this scripture? It says they were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word (see Luke 1: 2).

D.J.H. It is wonderful that there were persons who attended upon Him. In Luke's gospel we see, for instance in chapter 8, that there were the women who ministered to Him of their substance, persons who attended upon Him. What a privilege it was, these eye-witnesses, so that the matter is established with irrefutable witness as to the Person that was here. John says here, "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only begotten with a father". The One whom we now know as the Word, the One in whom God has come in to be His own testimony, is the One who is there in eternal existence, in nature divine, in Person distinct, as has been said. What the relationships were we do not know. There is no reference in Scripture to a relationship existing before He came into manhood, but as here in manhood He was taken account of as an onlybegotten with a father.

L.McF. So the Word became flesh; it is really the Creator, the Creator coming into conditions in which He could be near to us. Of course we would have to distinguish that flesh from our flesh would we not?

D.J.H. It has been said He derived nothing morally from the source through which He came as after the flesh; it says, "come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship", Gal 4: 4,5. But He derived nothing morally from the source through which He came and yet how real His humanity as come of woman, was it not? Is that what you are thinking?

L.McF. Yes. "And dwelt among us". In a coming day it will be God tabernacling with men, but this thought preceded that; the lowliness of Jesus.

D.J.H. Yes, it is wonderful. And yet this Person as you say, in lowliness here - and I believe as said at the beginning, that the more we apprehend the greatness of the Person, the more we shall be drawn out in our affections in relation to the lowliness of Jesus here.

K.N.P. I was wondering if it is very clear, because "the Word was with God, and the Word was God". There can be no confusion, can there?

D.J.H. No. And then, you might say, to make it abundantly clear, "He was in the beginning with God". There is no question at all as to the distinctiveness of His Person and yet as Himself God in the fullest sense, in that it says that the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him. I was touched, too, with the reference that was made in the meetings in London two years ago, drawing attention to the fact that it says the Word became flesh; it does not say flesh and blood, that is, that He came into, shall we say, a substantial condition and that condition remains, that is, He is still a Man. If it said He came into flesh and blood that condition has been terminated, it was terminated in His death. But the Word became flesh, that is He came into a condition in which He could be taken account of and seen, and we shall see Him. That is the hope that we have in our hearts that we shall see Him and when we see Him we shall be like Him. He could say as out of death that a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see Me having (see Luke 24: 39). The Word became flesh, having taken on manhood He retains manhood eternally yet never ceasing to be who He is in the glory of His Person. You would go with that?

L.McF. Fully. So He emptied Himself, according to Philippians, of a condition that we really could not understand, in becoming Man. His manner of life; I am thinking too of the matter of love - God is love - how this came out in full expression in this glorious Person.

D.J.H. So He is in nature divine, is He not, "The Word was God".

J.R.C. What you have been saying answers what I was thinking about. The expression "the Word", where did that come from?

D.J.H. That is an interesting question because He was given the name of Jesus - "thou shalt call his name Jesus" - and He was the Christ in relation to Israel. It seems as though it was a designation that was given to Him by the disciples as recognising that God was coming in as His own testimony. It would relate to what it says in Hebrews, "God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, at the end of these days has spoken to us in the person of the Son". It seems as though the disciples had an impression that in this Person God Himself was speaking. So the writer in Hebrews goes on to say "For this reason we should give heed more abundantly to the things we have heard" because of the nature of the Person through whom they have been heard, who is in fact God Himself (see Heb 2: 1).

J.R.C. I think that helps. Therefore wisdom has been in that matter, "the Word" - even here it has a capital showing appreciation of the fact of who the Person is.

D.J.H. Yes I think so. We might move on to Hebrews. We often contemplate in this chapter the alternation almost between the references to His deity and His humanity. We do not get that in the same way where we have been reading in John where the glory of the Person and His relations with the Father are more in mind. But here we have the places that He has been given or He has taken; He has been established heir of all things, and it speaks of Him "having made by himself the purification of sins". But then who else could set himself down? He has set Himself down as man, but what man could take that place? A place on the right hand of the greatness on high. What can we say as to that? How do you understand that?

J.A.P. I do not know much, but I think the work of purification that the Lord Jesus has accomplished is greater than His work in creation. What would you say?

D.J.H. I am sure that is right. That entered into what He said in relation to the paralytic, "Which is easier: to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Rise up and walk?", Matt 9: 5. We would not speak of it as being easy, because it could only be God who could do it, who could act creatorially, and say, Rise up and walk; who could speak and it was done, command and it stood fast. But our sins could not be met that way. It involved that this Person should go into death and Himself make purification for sins. Yet because of who it is that has done it it must be to the absolute satisfaction of God Himself.

J.A.P. We had that hymn about Jehovah's Fellow. That is in the prophet (Zech 13: 7), that was the Lord Jesus. The sin question was resolved by God, "He who, yea, has not spared his own Son, but delivered him up for us all", Rom 8: 32. It is beyond us what He has accomplished. I think the illustration you give is very excellent, Which is easier to say? To forgive the man his sins cost the Lord Jesus everything.

D.J.H. That was not an act of creation, was it? We have reference to it again in Colossians, in whom we have redemption". Ephesians is "In whom we have redemption through his blood" (Eph 1: 5), His humanity more being in mind, but it is in this Person. While it was in Him as Man, and while it was as Man that He made purification for sins, it is this Person. It is something that is, in a sense, too great for us to grasp, the reality of His Person. We often quote what Mr Darby said, when questioned as to whether it was God that died, that the Man that died was God. These things are really beyond us to comprehend, but we apprehend them by faith and they give us assurance, as nothing else could, that that question has been settled for God's entire satisfaction.

L.McF. So the character of the speaking at the present time is "in these days has spoken to us in the person of the Son". Is that not an affectionate approach, the speaking is in Son, how God has come near to us and it is to draw out our affections, do you think, for the Father and the Son?

D.J.H. Would you not say that it would connect with what we read in John's gospel, "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". That is really God speaking in Son, but as you say what affection is there, who can say?

L.D.P. I just wonder if "speaking in Son" would be in line with what is seen in Acts 1: 1, "all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach"; it is expressed in words and in deed.

D.J.H. I am sure that would be so - the distinction is made in Hebrews as to the speaking on Sinai and the speaking in Son. As our brother says, it is a point of affection the way in which the Lord has come to us and what has been involved in it, as it says, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". How that would affect us! I think the beginning of the second chapter of the epistle would relate to that. For this reason we ought to give more abundant heed when we think of the One who has come to us and what has been involved, what has been referred to, that He emptied Himself and came into this condition, apart from sin, in order that God might speak to us in this affectionate way.

A.S.H. I was thinking of what the Father said of the Son, 'This is my beloved Son: hear him", Mark 9: 7. Every other man is put out of court – “my beloved Son: hear him".

D.J.H. That is good. At the transfiguration Peter would have put two alongside Him; wonderful that they were talking with Him in glory as to His departure which He was about to accomplish, but the cloud overshadowed them, and then that voice out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son: hear him". And then when they fully awoke they saw no one but Jesus alone. I am sure that helps, that was God speaking in Son, "hear him". But it was God who was speaking, that is the point, is it not?

L.McF. So we become contemplators. "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an onlybegotten with a father, full of grace and truth". That ought to be our occupation, do you think?

D.J.H. Yes indeed; that is beautiful. I felt that while we are affected in our inwards in view of affectionate response towards Him as we take account of His humanity, that that would be increased with us if we had a deeper apprehension of the Person who came that way and who remains a Man and in whom we shall see God. That is the pure in heart, for they shall see God, it says, (see Matt 5: 8). John delights to make references does he not, in his epistle and in the Revelation where it is impossible to separate between God and the Lamb. "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him, and they shall see his face", Rev 22: 3,4. It does not say whether it is God or the Lamb, but it is God and the Lamb, and they shall see His face. A blessed hope before us, is it not? And yet the truth ever remains that no man has seen God at any time; that is as to His essential being. He could not have come nearer.

P.Z. I was looking at verse 24 in John 17, "I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world". It is affecting to see what place we have been given, sinners and strangers we are brought nigh so that we can behold His glory.

D.J.H. Wonderful, is it not? Others may remember what Mr Taylor said as to that. He linked it with the earlier reference to His glory where He says, "the glory which I had along with thee before the world was", John 17: 5. Not that that is the glory that we behold, but he put those two together and in relation to that verse where it speaks of beholding His glory - "that they may behold my glory" - he used the expression which is more than I could explain, but it makes you bow in worship, that we are brought thus "to the edge of abstract deity". That was a remarkable expression, that we are brought "to the edge of abstract deity"; we are brought so near, are we not? There is what is inscrutable. I like to think of it like the horizon when you are at sea, that you never reach it. It is not as if you come up against a brick wall and that is the end, but although you never reach it, yet you can keep going and going and going and reaching into it. Another said that we can be bold in the sphere of revelation but never seek to encroach upon what is not revealed. You never seem to get to the end, and yet you know that there is a point beyond which you cannot reach, and it is all in this Person:

God manifest in flesh, O wonder of the His universe!

O wisdom all divine! That takes such blessed, lowly ways

(Hymn 400).

I felt so much confirmed by that hymn.

K.N.P. The reference here to "the effulgence of his glory" would link with what you are saying, would it not? The footnote refers to 'that which fully presents the glory which is in something else'. God manifest in flesh, there it is in a Person but that is how we come near to it. We cannot enter into anything without Christ.

D.J.H. That is right. That is a good note to draw attention to, 'that which fully presents the glory which is in something else'. Paul speaks of it, "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ", 2 Cor 4: 6. That is where it is, is it not, in the face of a Man, and yet that Man is who He is as to His own Person. But it is the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, the glory which is in something else, it is the glory of God Himself. And yet the Person in whom it shines is Himself God, but we see it in the face of a Man.

J.R.C. It is very encouraging, in John's gospel where we read, it speaks of "dwelt among us" - dwelling conditions and yet the Person infinitely beyond us.

D.J.H. Our brother referred to the fact of the tabernacle of God with men. It was really almost anticipated when Jesus was here in these conditions; yet then it will be in conditions absolutely suited, where there is nothing of the mixture which we find with ourselves and which was with those with whom He dwelt at that time. It seemed to look forward to what God had in His mind according to His purpose.

J.A.P. It is a good point our brother brings up about dwelling, because they constrained Him in Luke 24. Two subject people, maybe a husband and a wife, in a low state, but He brought them back to the company. What do you say about that?

D.J.H. You mean that that is what is in mind; it is the company. We have it now of course by the Holy Spirit being here, the Person of the Holy Spirit here in the assembly, but it is really the company that is in mind. We may have impressions ourselves and experiences ourselves as He could say, "We will come to him and make our abode with him" (John 14: 23) - that is to the individual, is it not? But what is in mind is the company. So that while John was alone on Patmos he became in the Spirit on the Lord's day and he immediately relates himself as "your brother and fellow-partaker"; he immediately as it were, in Spirit links himself on with the company.

A.S.H. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" yet He did not derive anything from the flesh. He passed right through as a root out of dry ground.

D.J.H. Yes, He derived nothing. It is wonderful that He should be here thus and drawing everything from above. Nights in prayer, who of us could sustain that? The occasion which was referred to earlier as to the transfiguration, it was as He prayed, was it not? You get the Father's delight. What it must have been to be in communion with such a Man here in this relationship, as our brother said, into which He had come - coming into the relationship of sonship. What it must have meant to the Father to have Him in that relationship.

D.McF. Could you say something as to the thought of setting Himself down at the right hand.

D.J.H. I think it just shows the way in which the work was absolutely completed. There is no more to be done. Even as it speaks later of the High Priest, as the High Priest He has set Himself down; He is not standing to minister in that sense because His work is complete, the sacrifice is complete. And here His work is complete, this great work of making purification of sins by Himself and He has set Himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high. It was to the absolute satisfaction of God, but then He knew that because of who He was Himself and yet it was as Man that it was accomplished.

H.J.G. All that had to be completed first for man to be in liberty in God's presence. So we need to have a very great impression of Him, of course, not only because He is the One who has done it but because of what has been done too.

D.J.H. Yes. Not that we would be with Him in this place, but the fact that Man is in the presence of God makes ways for us, you are thinking?

H.J.G. It could not be apart from this, "having made by himself the purification of sins".

D.J.H. Absolutely. As I said there is no question as to the perfection of the work because God has done it Himself. It has involved this Person coming into manhood and effecting it by His death and the shedding of His precious blood, but it is by Himself. God has never had to go outside Himself to secure His great end that He should have man for His pleasure eternally in His presence in relationship and in affection.

H.J.G. The hymn says:

To secure Thy plan so holy, (Hymn 141)

D.J.H. Yes. Perhaps we should move on to Colossians. Where we read in John and Hebrews we do not exactly get ourselves brought in in relationship, save, as you say, that in Hebrews the fact that He has gone in as Man makes way for us, and as He said in John 14: "and shall receive you to myself, that where I am ye also may be". But here we actually have His relationship; as it says, "And he is the head of the body, the assembly". We actually get this emphatic "he" as the One who is in that position in relation to the assembly. It should make us have a greater apprehension of the greatness of the place we have as of His body.

G.A. Would you say a word about Matthew 5. It says, "Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil" (v 17). I was thinking of the word "to fulfil"; it is not to make void the law here, but Jesus has come in to fulfil. Would this fit in with what you are saying?

D.J.H. It was as coming into manhood, as we sometimes sing:

All Thou hast e'er desired from man we see In Him (Hymn 119)

The law gave the divine requirement for man. If man could have kept it man would have been for God's pleasure. But man could not keep it. But here was one blessed Man who could fill it out so that God had One in whom everything was secured according to what He required. As it says He magnified the law and made it honourable (Isa 42: 21); God was, in that sense, vindicated in giving the law because it was not impossible, but there was only One who could fill it out and that was Jesus, God Himself in fact come in in that way.

J.A.P. The expression in Colossians that you refer to, He is the beginning; in Colossians that beginning is connected with the resurrection. What would you say about that? That is the beginning for us, Christ raised from among the dead.

D.J.H. Yes. That all involves the way He went, does it not, to close that one order altogether in that condition of flesh and blood in which man had failed, but as out of death He has secured another order in which we can have part. He was of that order, of course, as coming into the world as to the com of wheat, "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone", John 12: 24. Our brother stressed the word 'it abides'; what was here in Jesus in blood and flesh was an abiding order of humanity - that order abides. And through the work of God and the work of redemption we have part in that order. Apart from His death that order would abide alone; now there is the much fruit which has been secured through His death. It was an abiding order of humanity, only once here in flesh and blood in Jesus, but now in another condition in glory out of death in resurrection; man has been secured after that order. Is that as you understand it?

J.R.C. How do we understand this very close connection between the body, and he immediately goes on to say the assembly?

D.J.H. That is wonderful, again stressing the reality of His manhood. This could be spoken of as the body; He is the glorious Head, is He not, the assembly is the body. But then not only for Himself, it goes on to say, "He is the head of the body, the assembly". So that it is not only for Himself but it is the assembly of the living God. And as referred to earlier, the assembly will be the tabernacle of God eternally. The reference to the assembly is wider than the body, is it not? Is that right to say?

J.R.C. I think that is right. The body therefore is a very personal touch in regard to Christ Himself. He is Head of the body. Is it right to say that the body is presently under the guidance and the help of the Holy Spirit.

D.J.H. That is right. So that it speaks of it later - "not holding fast the head" (Col 2: 19), that is the negative side, but it says, "from whom all the body, ministered to and united together by the joints and bands, increases with the increase of God", everything in the body comes from Him, does it not?

J.R.C. Mr Stoney speaks very much of the imperative of finding our place in the body.

D.J.H. How wonderful that is when we take account of this scripture that He is Head of the body. That was what was affecting me, the greatness of the Person, His creatorial glory brought in and yet He is Head of the body. How that increases in our minds the greatness of the body and then magnifies the grace that would give us to have part in it.

J.R.C. Therefore to understand the body, maybe in some little way, it links on with the assembly, which is a very dignified matter.

D.J.H. Yes. Of course the assembly embraces all the saints of the assembly, many or the most of whom are with Christ: but the body is what is here in the unity of the Spirit. So again the assembly is a wider thought in that respect, is it not? The body is a living organism.

L.McF. "In him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell". Can you explain that?

D.J.H. No. It is interesting, taking account of what we have been speaking of earlier, that He dwelt among us, but all the Fulness was pleased to dwell in Him and it now dwells in Him bodily. Which again reminds us that He is still there as a Man, all the Fulness dwelling in Him bodily. But here again, as to all that had come in in the way of distance - as it speaks of "alienated and enemies in mind by wicked works" - it says, "by him to reconcile all things to itself". That is again that God has not had to go outside Himself to meet the whole question that had come in bringing in distance between man and God.

L.McF. You have complacency here; divine Persons are complacent in relation to that great work.

D.J.H. Yes. You are thinking of what often has been said, that where there was distance now there is complacency. That is reconciliation accomplished, is it not, and as we have been reminded that is an objective matter. It has been accomplished, as it says here; "to reconcile all things to itself, having made peace by the blood of his cross". That is, it has been done.

 

NEW YORK

9 May 1998

 

Key to initials

G.Ashby - New York; J.R.Cumming - Edinburgh; H.J.Glass - Toronto; A.S.Hinckson - New York; D.J.Hutson - London; L.Mcfarlane - New York; J.A.Petersen - Plainfield; K.N.Pye - New York; L.D.Phillips - New York; P.Zaklama - New York.