THE FATHER'S LOVE FOR CHRIST AND CHRIST'S LOVE FOR THE FATHER

A

WORD

IN ITS

SEASON

 

No 289

April 1997

 

 

 

CONTENTS

 

The Father's Love For Christ      J.A.Gardiner              1

Coming To Christ                  J.A.Gardiner             34

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited and Published by:

E.C.Burr

50 Red Post Hill London SE24 9JQ

2 Peter 1: 17-19; 2 Samuel 7: 18-29

J.A.G. I have been thinking about the love of the Father for Christ and the responsive love of the Lord to the Father. It is as here that Peter can describe the character of that voice which indicates the depths of feeling that the Father has for the Son. On the mount of transfiguration, the Lord's face "shone as the sun" - "his garments became white as the light"; as we know, it is the kingdom that is in mind, but I think what underlies it is the powerful, blessed relations between the Father and the Son. Deborah says, "But let them that love him be as the rising of the sun in its might", Judg 5: 31. It is a very blessed contemplation to see the Father's deep, absolute, complete affection for Christ, then Christ's full and blessed response to the Father. The Father, I would say with all reverence, thoroughly enjoys His place in fatherhood, and the Lord Jesus is perfectly happy in the full enjoyment of His place in sonship. This bears very much upon us, because we are taken into that relationship. You are loved by the Father with the love with which He loves Christ. The character of our answer to that love is of the same character as Christ's answer. We have the spirit of sonship, the Spirit of God's Son, helping us into the intensity of the intimacy of our links with the Father so that the Spirit of His Son is in our hearts crying, Abba Father. How near and how blessed that is! The Lord might help us to rise to the blessedness of our enjoyment of these links that we have.

I thought that in the scripture in 2 Samuel, down to verse 17, there is, in type, some evidence of the Father by His Spirit strengthening David in the inner man. God is thinking about Solomon. He is showing David how He capacitated him to have the same kind of appreciation for Solomon as He had. Then when David goes in and sits before Jehovah - how blessed that is! - there is the response in sonship as he is able, in the type at least, to apprehend fully ''what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge", Ephes. 3: 18. The Lord might help us, give us a quickening touch, to cause us to move increasingly into the enjoyment of our relations with God.

D.E.B. The first reference to love in the Scripture comes to mind - "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest", Gen 22: 2.

J.A.G. That is fine. There is no word of Ishmael. Isaac, there it is; the father and the son going on together, the burnt-offering in mind, and the manifestation, in type, of the fulness of God's love for us, but primarily, of course, of Abraham's committal to God. Think of what it meant to Abraham to stretch out his hand and take the knife to slaughter his son. Think of God's commending His love to us. I, at least, need much help to move into the warmth and blessedness of the Father's love.

D.E.B. John says, "and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father", John 1: 14. That is for our contemplation.

J.A.G. Yes, I think so. I think you could say that of David as he went in and sat before the Lord. He is beyond his dispensation. He is touching what is eternal, and all this and more is available to us: it is all ours and belongs to us - to every brother or sister here. This belongs to you; it is yours. The Father's love in its fulness is upon us, God shedding it abroad in our hearts by His Spirit and, as associated with Christ, the Lord Jesus helps us and educates us in all the different features and qualities of sonship, but we answer to the Father's love in the character in which Jesus answers to it.

G.C.B. The scripture comes to mind, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", John 3: 35.

J.A.G. We are to help one another. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand": He is absolutely restful and fully committed to Christ. He says, You will run the whole universe for Me.

E.F.W. It is a wonderful appeal in John 17. I suppose the disciples would have heard directly that appeal to the Father that the same love might be in them. What an objective! Could you say more?

J.A.G. Is that not wonderful, that they would be able to love Him as the Father loves Him? – “that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them", v 26. You can see how headship is going to work, "I in them." How blessed this is! I think we should restfully enjoy the Father’s love. This does not belong to the wilderness, it belongs to the land and we touch the land as here together.

J.W. Would this help us to develop in maturity. These are Peter's mature thoughts about the transfiguration and I wondered if David too is marked by maturity in the way he goes and sits before Jehovah.

J.A.G. Yes, they are both mature men and both men who have been adjusted. David had the idea that he was going to build the house. There is nothing wrong with that. Nathan says, Yes, the Lord is with you: go ahead. Eventually he gets the plan but he does not get the permission to build.

V.E.W. Did Peter discern in the Father’s voice that there was something there that he could hardly describe? He says, "such a voice." He uses superlative language.

J.A.G. That is exactly what I thought: he cannot describe it. It is indescribable. But then the Father is not speaking to Peter. Although He had the disciples in mind, He is looking on Christ and He is saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight." Peter does not say hear him here because he had already heard Him. I think what you are saying is fine, that the intensity of the affection is beyond human language to convey.

D.J.H. Is that affection seen in that Paul refer to "the son of his love", Col 1: 13? He does not just say 'his Son', but "the Son of his love."

J.A.G. I thought of that because this primarily is the kingdom. They are "eyewitnesses of his majesty", but then it is the Son of the Father's love. We have been "delivered... from the authority of darkness, and translated" into this blessed area where the rule of the Son of the Father's love is known. What a favour it is! We have to live in this!

E.C.B. John 17 to which our brother referred is present. The blessedness of the relationships about which Jesus speaks to the Father are present, not future.

J.A.G. It is the present time and Ephesians 3 is to be touched at the present time. Paul says, "whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God", 2 Cor 5: 13.

E.C.B. It has been said as to John 17 that Jesus first sets His own in His own place before the Father and then in His own place before the world. That is very attractive.

J.A.G. It is most attractive. When He sets them in His own place before the world, He breathes into them, the inwards of Christ being imparted.

D.E.B. Can you say more about the kingdom? We have thoughts in relation to the kingdom of what is even restrictive.

J.A.G. Naturally our thoughts of the kingdom are perhaps slightly arbitrary, but it is not that. It is “the kingdom of the Son of his love." Persons are in it willingly and happily, but what sustains and supports the kingdom is the relationship of sonship with God. I think sonship underlies everything, sonship and the functioning of the body. I think that is borne out in the reference you make to John 17: "that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them." What a blessed situation to be in!

D.J.H. I was reading something as to our needing to distinguish between faith and affection. We come into certain things by faith, but there are other things, and what we are speaking of is what we come into by way of affection.

J.A.G. Absolutely. Divine Persons are anxious that we might make way for Their love in our hearts. Think of how They have come into the economy, to serve us in order that we might be in the enjoyment of God's love, because ultimately God rests in His love in persons in sonship.

P.M. Does the fulness of the revelation of God necessitate that the Father's love for the Son should be made known to man?

J.A.G. Yes, I think so: it is the divine ordering and it relates to counsel. Think of God in His great ness: He can be satisfied in Himself, but He is going to fill the universe with men like Christ for His satisfaction.

P.M. It was made known in One who could respond to it in absolute perfection, and, as responding to it, has secured an answer to it in those who can equally respond to the Father's love.

J.A.G. In that chapter, He indicates what is in His mind in Matthew 17 as to the stater, and the sons being free: “take that and give it to them for me and thee", v 27. It is all working in Peter and it all comes out here. Is that not beautiful?

E.O. Would God's feelings be seen in that word, "Let my son go, that he may serve me"?

J.A.G. They would indeed. "Israel is my son," He claims him - my firstborn ... Let my son go that he may serve me", Exod 4: 22,23. Then He says if you do not let my son go, I will kill thy son thy firstborn.

E.C.B. Do the accounts of the transfiguration and what Jesus says to the disciples beforehand suggest that the kingdom is to be experienced in what the Father thinks of the Son?

J.A.G. I think so. I think that is all the background to the working out of it.

E.C.B. In Matthew, for instance, they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom, but you find that the Son of man is the Son of God. But there is nothing said about the kingdom on the mountain.

J.A.G. No, nothing. What is said on the mountain, of course, is to correct Peter's interruption but the clear point is the Father's delight in the Son: "This is my beloved Son", Matt 17: 5. 'Do not interrupt by speaking: let Him speak. Listen to what He has to say’.

E.C.B. Peter does not say, the Father said to us. He heard the Father speaking to the Son of which we have very little of the record in scripture.

J.A.G. I think this is exceedingly beautiful. He does not say, 'Thou art my beloved Son.' He is obviously looking at Jesus - it is a vision of course - and Jesus is looking at Him and His face is shining like the sun, like the sun at noon-day. That is Christ's response to the Father, and God the Father is looking at Christ and saying "This is my beloved Son".

R.E.T. So the Father is giving Peter the object. Is that not what we need?

J.A.G. We have a great object! What a Person Jesus is! What capability He has! He will run the kingdom, He will run the whole universe. Adam failed in his stewardship, but not Christ. The Son of God is on God's side and He is holding everything for God, and primarily in relation to the house.

J.W. If Christ is the object of the Father's affections and the object of ours, it would help us in communion with the Father.

J.A.G. I am sure it would: the Father is so desirous of telling us about Christ. He is the One who has drawn us to Christ: "Every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him, comes to me", John 6: 45.

D.E.R. Was the Father's delight in the Son because of His moral worth, and is not that what the Father can find delight in even today?

J.A.G. I think so. I think He finds in Jesus everything He ever looked for in man. Adam was only a figure of Him who was to come. All this was in the divine mind before time was.

R.E.T. Can you give us some help as to being in a state to receive spiritual impressions? Does Peter help us to get on the house-top?

J.A.G. I think the gospel does that. If you follow the teaching of the glad tidings, you are ready for the mystery, ready for heaven. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God", Rom 8:14. The Spirit is leading the sons of God, but He is leading towards the inheritance, towards the land, towards the great area where the Father's love is known. When you come to Numbers 21, there are the heaps of Abarim - the regions beyond are what is in mind "the breadth and length and depth and height" and in that area the love of the Christ is free: un trammelled. It could not be free here on earth. The Lord could not let His affections go, except amongst His own.

R.E.T. The sheet in Acts 11 is a wonderful thing is it not, coming down out of heaven?

J.A.G. Yes: if you were a Jew, you would need help about that, to see that there are others in the sheet besides you. There are a lot of brethren in the sheet besides you. This is just an aside, but you meet the Lord's people. There are many Christians and the Lord is doing great things apart from this meeting. He is going on with His work and the gospel is working. The counsel of God is being fulfilled.

D.A.B. There are, as we know, two words used for love. Is what you have in mind especially the one which Mr Darby says is 'more intimate and intense’. The Lord speaks of it in relation to Himself in John 5, that the Father loves the Son, but then He speaks of it in relation to us in chapter 16 and draws a special reference to the Father by referring to, "The Father himself has affection for you", v 27.

J.A.G. Is that phileo?

D.A.B. Yes. I thought that reference which is I think unusual - “the Father himself" - meant that the Lord had in mind not only that the intensity of the love should be experienced, but the Person whose love it was should be understood and responded to.

J.A.G. It is a big question whether we really believe all this. The act of faith is immediately introduced in the 'over-Jordan' epistles, Colossians and Ephesians - faith in the Lord Jesus and love towards all the saints.

D.A.B. Peter's belief of it was based on his experience: not on what he had been taught. "And this voice we heard ... being with him". Is that the secret to this that the belief we have in it should be based on what we have ourselves proved?

J.A.G. Yes, the Lord chose them. He says, You three come up with me, Peter, James and John. They did not learn this from Moses or Isaiah or Jeremiah or Ezekiel. It was an experience that they had.

D.J.W. It seems as if Peter calculated that this would be what would stir the saints up: "But I account it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up..." There is nothing like the presentation of this and the entering into divine relationships in love to stir the saints, is there?

J.A.G. Yes, he says, "And we have the prophetic word made surer." We have seen it ourselves. We have been in the presence of it. He says, the day is going to dawn and the morning star is going to arise. Is the morning star arisen in your heart? I think the morning star is the evening star as well.

D.E.B. According to the beginning of Hebrews, in the last days God "has spoken to us in the person of the Son, v 2. Is that the dominant way that the Father would communicate with us today?

J.A.G. We find it very difficult in ourselves to rise to the magnitude of divine thought, to move on the level of it, in its 'free-hearted liberality', you might say. That is how He has spoken to us, "in the person of the Son". He had spoken by the prophets and through the fathers-wonderful speaking! Peter speaks about it - "holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit", 2 Pet.1: 21 but the finality of speaking is "in the person of the Son." What speaking that is!

R.E.T. Tell us about the morning star.

J.A.G. Well, it is a sure sign the day is coming. You will have seen it, I suppose - no other stars in the sky - and He says Himself He is ''the bright and morning star", Rev 22: 16. This is calculated to stir up the bride, that kind of affection for Christ.

J.S.G. Do you have more in mind as to the house?

J.A.G. I think that is what is in mind. Everything is built by someone, the writer says, speaking about Christ as Son over God's house; and that is what Jehovah is telling David. He says, Your son is going to be My son and it is he who is going to build the house. I will be his Father and he will be my son. Jesus is the pattern of the house.

G.N. Could you help us as to your impressions of the influence of divine love and its effects?

J.A.G. I think the primary influence of divine love in your heart is that it liberates you, you are set free. And if you are set free, you are delivered, you are free to answer to divine love itself, to answer to God and consequently you will love the brethren. You will find somebody who is moving in some measure in the gain of this, you will never hear them complaining about the brethren.

D.J.H. Does that enter into the reference made earlier to ''the kingdom of the Son of his love? In a sense it is love that controls us. We do not need rules or regulations, or anything but this kind of love; if it were with us in power, everything would be all right.

J.A.G. Exactly so. "Who is image of the invisible God". As your heart is fully occupied with Christ you are absorbed with the greatness of the Person. He is the One in whom "all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell, and by him …”.

D.J.H. It is very practical, as to our walk here, what we do where we go and so on. Everything would be regulated simply by a love of this character.

J.A.G. I think if we touched this line and were affected by this, we would have time for nothing else. The more you enjoy it, the more you want.

D.A.B. Do we see in Nathan the spirit of prophecy and the testimony of Jesus. As he speaks God's mind we see how full God's mind is of Christ.

J.A.G. Yes, and what He has done to David. The brethren here can go over all their own histories and say what the Lord has done for them. He says to David, "I took thee from the pasture-ground, 2 Sam 7: 8, took him up in the meeting, you might say. Here is the pasture-ground, is it not?

E.C.B. Would greater experience of the house have more influence on us?

J.A.G. Well, a house is for living in: that is what He is speaking to David about, dwelling and resting. Go on.

E.C.B. The character of the Father's house in Luke 15 is a place of perfect liberty and it tests everybody who is not in it.

J.A.G. Quite: so it is a place where reconciliation is known, where the peace-offering is known, fellowship is known, at that level. The father suggested that they should be merry. The son did not suggest that they should be merry: "let us eat and make merry", v 23.

E.O.P.M. We often refer to the fact that the fatted calf was in the house; the other things were brought out. Both Peter and David had to be in the presence of these things to get the gain of them. Could you help us as to how we keep ourselves in the love of God, how we keep ourselves in the divine presence?

J.A.G. I think it is dependence. It is a fine scripture at the end of Jude: "Praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God", v 20,21, and then the doxology follows; "But to him that is able to keep you without stumbling", v 24, I think the more we are cast upon God, the more we know God, the more we will become like Him. You will find that you have God's tastes and God's desires and God's outlook, holiness as a quality has been developed in you, righteousness also.

R.H.B. In Romans we are told that nothing can separate us from the love of God, but in Jude we are exhorted to keep ourselves in it. Can you say something as to that?

J.A.G. One side is your responsibility. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. God says to David, I have been with you wherever you went. And He chastened him. God never compromises Himself or lowers the standard. You go to the Jacob side of things and you find all that. That is the struggle side of things which relates to his wages getting changed and business matters and he starts up on his own and he does not go to Bethel, but until he comes to the house, he is not really in communion with God.

J.W-w. In the scripture in Samuel it is one thing for God to speak to David through Nathan but it is another thing when David went in and sat before Jehovah. If we are in God's presence, are we in the presence of the source?

J.A.G. I think so. That is why I thought of David going in. There is the spirit of sonship in David - in type the answer in David to the activities of the Father by His Spirit strengthening him in the inner man, because he is going in and he has great scope, sitting down there: he is going in in power and gives expression to his great knowledge of God. I could not go into all the different titles and names of God that he uses. If you look at the first verse in the Bible, there is a footnote to "In the beginning God", and J.N.D. goes over almost everything in that footnote.

E.O. Is love a two-way matter? God is looking tor that return, is He not? "Thou shalt love the Lord the God with all thy heart", Mark 12: 30?

J.A.G. I think so: we love because He first loved us. It is a poor thing if you cannot respond to love. Then God is capacitating us, as He has capacitated David, to have His thoughts of Christ and so He goes in and sits before Jehovah. How blessed that is! I do not think we do that enough. Take the local readings: we say, we are reading say in 2 Samuel 7. We read the chapter: we pray about it and do what has been said (and it is excellent advice) that you read the chapter three times you read the Synopsis, read what everybody said about it. When you go to the reading, you will know that everybody else has read what everybody said about it. But you get beyond that to your own links with God and you get something fresh about it. That is the Spirit’s leading. The Lord will come into that and expand that line in the meeting.

R.E.T. We need to come to the sensibility of what Christianity really is and what we can say about it.

J.A.G. I think this is Christianity; hence these features were manifest in Antioch. After a year Paul and Barnabas taught in the assembly a whole year – they must have manifested the thing in themselves, that they were in the enjoyment of it.

E.C.B. You can see that David had in mind breadth and length and depth and height. ls that not what is needed in the local meeting?

J.A.G. It is indeed: great expansion is needed. You are “fully able to apprehend." He goes over, you might say, all that God has done from Genesis 1 right up to the present day. The ministry of course is a great guide: it gets you on course, but look for the Lord to come in in addition. That is scripture. "As they were listening" - that is like reading the ministry and the Bible - "As they were listening ... He added and spake a parable, Luke 19: 11.

M.M. What is the force of David's question in verse 19, "And is this the manner of man, Lord Jehovah? "

J.A.G. I think it is the Son. That is the manner of man: Jesus is the manner of man. What else would you say about it?

M.M. It shone out in the Person of Christ.

J.A.G. The house cannot be built while there is war and conflict going on. He says to David - and David came to that himself - that he had been a man of blood and had made great wars and soon, but all the conflict is finished before the house begins to be built, and when the house is being built, there is no hammer or axe or noise at all. Everything fits in perfectly, "fitted together".

D.H. Is not that how it should be in our local meetings, the working out of things?

J.A.G. I think that is how it has to be. I do not think the building can proceed if you are engaged in warfare. They must be restful. There is neither war nor evil occurrent. Everybody is enjoying their own links with God and their inheritance. You are under your own vine and your own fig tree, perfectly satisfied, and so the house proceeds. The building proceeds positively. David got the gain of this, his whole energy, all that he has, all his substance, is directed towards the house.

D.H. I was thinking about the ascent by which Solomon went up to the house of Jehovah, and the passage finishes, "Because Jehovah loves Israel for ever, therefore did he make thee king to do judgment and justice", 1 Kings 10: 9.

J.A.G. Yes I think that is very beautiful, because that bears on her contemplation, in type, of the Lord's distinctive relations with the Father. He says, "My Father and your Father." Watch how He does things! See how He goes up to God! J.N.D. says

"My soul in secret follows

The footsteps of His love."

Are we able to do that? Can we go through the gospels and watch how He moves? We are not always to be occupied with what is moral for that is settled: the kingdom does all these things. We touch what is spiritual where love is and feed on love's greatness, love's design and love's thoughts.

J.W. When we come to Solomon's reign, He settled these things, did he not? They need to be settled though, do they not?

J.A.G. They need to be settled, but it is not our main occupation. There is no food in conflict although you have to face up to it. In 2 Chronicles 32 Sennacherib comes up and Hezekiah puts the people on a war footing and the finest weapon that he has is praying to God.

P.M. Is this the normal result of a prophetic word that it leaves us with an impression of the character of the man who has done everything for God?

J.A.G. I think the prophetic word directs our hearts, if we follow, and we come to the source and the standard of it. The standard that God has in mind is Jesus.

P.M. It has been said we often think a prophetic word is when we have given the brethren a rebuke, but the prophetic word leaves the brethren occupied with Christ.

J.A.G. I think the true prophetic word has stimulation in mind. You are adjusted; you may be rebuked; you may be told that you are not able to judge yourself; but it leaves you with something positive. It leaves you with hope. It brings you back to God Himself.

E.O. The specific word to Peter was, "Follow thou me", and you have referred just now to the ascending Man, "I ascend". We are to keep our eye upon Him, where He is going, where He is leading us.

J.A.G. I think so. You can follow the Lord through the gospels and see how He deals with moral matters. We were reading in Matthew 23 this morning. How scathingly He sets out His judgment about the Pharisees! We were saying that the king is sitting in the gate from Matthew 23 to 26 and giving His judgments: and He gives them without reserve. But then that is not normal Christianity. Normal Christianity is occupation with Christ at this level. The normal thing for Paul and those with him was to be beside themselves to God. If we are sober he says, it is for your sakes (2 Cor 5: 13}.

E.C.B. Is that not what David is here? The prophetic word comes, but when David speaks to God, He never refers to failure. Do you think he has the morning star rising in his heart?

J.A.G. I thought so. I thought the day had dawned for him. God says, "It is he who shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. l will be his father, and he shall be my son." That is light that he has in the soul. It is the morning star. And then he goes in and speaks of God. He is going to fail after this, and there will be conflict after this, and the manifestation of antichrist in Absalom and in Adonijah; but this is unfailing. This is the counsel of God.

D.E.R. The chapter brings out how deep was David’s personal knowledge of God.

J.A.G. That is very beautiful: say more about it.

D.E.R. It is something we would desire to cultivate: then, maybe, we should receive more communications such as David received.

J.A.G. l think this is sonship at the level that God as in mind. He is appreciating God for what He is in Himself and for everything that He has done you night say, from Genesis 1 onwards. He appreciates God in creation. He appreciates God in redemption. He appreciates what God is doing for the brethren, for his own house and then for Israel thy people Israel." They are going to dwell in safety, nothing contrary is going to happen to them, they are going to be fully blessed.

H.A.H. You have referred more than once to his starting with Genesis 1, but he goes right through to Malachi without any sense of failure - "which thou redeemedst to thyself", and He says at the end, "And they shall be unto me a peculiar treasure", Mal 3: 17.

J.A.G. That is very beautiful. And he calls God 'Jehovah of hosts' which is a recovery title, you might say. The minor prophets, the recovered prophets, use that: they are counting on God and the immensity of divine resource. What you say is very beautiful. "They shall be unto me a peculiar treasure." He is going to write them up.

J.W. Is this love for God seen in the way in which he so richly provides for the house! thought he does not build it? Does it bring out his unselfishness and his love for God?

J.A.G. That is what I thought. I though that in his complete committal to the house and his contribution of his own substance - he gave of his own substance - he is absolutely with God in what He is doing. He has completely accepted the adjustment and is happily in the gain of it. My concern is that we should ourselves be in the enjoyment of our place before God in sonship.

P.M. Is that a wonderful reference he makes? He says, "And what can David say?", not 'What can thy servant...? ', but "What can David say. Does it bring out the intimacy of his own knowledge and link with God?

J.A.G. I think that is very beautiful. He goes in royally. It says, "And king David went in and sat before Jehovah, and said, Who am I, Lord Jehovah... ?" He is conscious of his nothingness. And then he says, "And what can David say...?" 'I could not have done all these things apart from You.' That is what we would have to say. Go over your history, every person here can go over their history with God and see what God has wrought for them. If it had been left to ourselves, we would have been nothing, because we are nothing.

M.S. In 1 Chron 29 David says,"... in my affection for the house of my God I have given of my own property...", v.3, and later it says, "And the people rejoiced because they offered willingly, for with perfect heart they offered willingly to Jehovah", v 9. Do you think the affection that David had spread throughout the whole of the people and capacitated them to offer in this way?

J.A.G. Yes, indeed; that is influence. You see how influential he is. He gathers all the people: he says, this is no ordinary house that we are building, this is a palatial place. ''This palace is not to be for man, but for Jehovah Elohim", 1 Chron 29: 1. Consequently you can see the necessity for the first section that we read because David is being fitted to live palatially. We need help to live palatially in Christianity, do we not?

G.C.B. Would you say something about the significance of David not building the house and Solomon building it.

J.A.G. David, as we know, is morally greater than the house. David in his history is a type of the Lord Jesus here. Solomon is Christ in glory: the work is all finished, there is no enemy or evil occurrent. So Christ has a free hand now to build this house. The whole work of redemption has been completed, God's nature has been glorified. He has nothing more to say to sin. There are no more Philistines or anything like that in mind. Christ has completed the work and so He is going on building the house from the point of view of the counsel of God. I think that is what is so wonderful. Job says "Thou canst be hindered in no thought of thine", Job 42: 2.

G.C.B. We should think of what Christ is now before God and what He has secured!

J.A.G. David and Solomon are one type, all one thing.

E.C.B. Does that connect with your remark about our not always being occupied with what is moral - that is David - but what is spiritual - that is Solomon.

J.A.G. Yes, when you go into heaven, when you go over Jordan, the moral side is finished. You are standing related to new creation in your own soul. I was quite impressed this week in the ministry meeting by Ephesians 5: "we are of his flesh", v 30 and "the two shall be one flesh", v 31. That is a very tangible thing and it can be located amongst the brethren.

R.E.T. Why do you say that David and Solomon are one: David was refused to build the house because he had shed so much blood?

J.A.G. I think David represents the side of grace in Christ here, because he takes the sword out of Goliath's hand.

D.A.B. God does not give that reason here? He does not refer to David's conflict. He seems to convey that He has a Man before Him whom it would need David and Solomon together to represent. There is the greater than Solomon in God's mind.

J.A.G. That is right. It needs all the types to set out Christ but all the types together are not equal to His greatness.

G.N. Reference has been made to the verse in Peter where the Father could have said 'in whom I have found all my delight.' Would that bear on what you are saying?

J.A.G. Yes, He does not say 'all my delight'; He says "my delight." His delight is in the saints. That is the burden of my spirit at the moment that we should realise that the Father's love for us at this present moment is the same as His love for Christ and His favour is shining upon us.

H.A.H. It is a matter of worship, is it not, the question the Lord put to His opposers, "How is he his son?" Matt 22: 45.

J.A.G. How is it possible? He says. There is the king in the gate again, the wisdom of the king in the gate.

D.E.B. In verse 22 here David says, "There is one like thee" and in the next verse, "And who is like thy people?" In a sense he is discerning in the people something that is a reflection of God.

J.A.G. Yes. He says, "For there is none like thee neither is there any God beside thee, according t II that we have heard with our ears. And who is like thy people, like Israel, the one nation in the earth that God went to redeem to be a people to himself, and to make himself a name, and to do for them great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thyself from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?" It is like the father with the recovered son dressed in the best robe, the ultimate and happiness of blessing. But the Father sets it on.

D.J.H. I have wondered lately whether, while recognising the conditions publicly, we have said too much about the day of small things. It is a day of great things.

J.A.G. Indeed it is. There has never been any weakening, any diminution, on the side of God's purpose and counsel. He knew all about the breakdown. He knew everything that was coming.

D.A.B. We were speaking about taking types together. I suppose in a sense the house and the tabernacle have to be taken together to represent what God finds in His saints, David does not have to wait for the house to be built to go in and sit before Jehovah: his knowledge of God was complemented by His liberty to approach.

J.A.G. Yes; he is perfectly free and happy in his relations with God. He gets this word as a vision. I suppose Nathan can see the whole picture and he would convey it to David so that he can see it; and David goes in and he is speaking to God directly about this whole matter. How great the things are that He is going to bring in, how great the brethren are, how He is going to "bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance ... The sanctuary, Lord, that Thy hands have prepared", Exod 15: 17. Think of the intimate detail of God preparing His sanctuary. Look around at the brethren and you see how God's hand God's service in love, has prepared them for where we are today.

D.A.B. So that when He speaks of them dwelling in their own place and being disturbed no more, it is in a sense God's dwelling place. That is what the house foreshadows.

J.A.G. Exactly, so the house and the tabernacle are one, because what is in the tabernacle is brought into the house. The house has in mind display, but the tabernacle is God dwelling. That is eternal: "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them their God", Rev 21: 3.

E.C.B. The books of Samuel begin with a priest sitting by the door-post but at this high point in the books we have a priest, really, in the holy place.

J.A.G. Exactly. He is manifesting the features of sonship that do not belong to his day.

E.C.B. The book of Proverbs brings out how much he was able to instruct his son in what was suitable in practical life.

J.A.G. The relations between them were such. "For I was a son," he says, "unto my father... and an only one in the sight of my mother", Prov 4: 3. Solomon was trained for this provision. What a place it was! When he was anointed there was conflict with Adonijah, and the assembly, in type, is brought into it and the prophet and the mighty man, and Solomon is caused to ride on the king's mule. But then they anoint him a second time. Well, you can anoint Him twice, three times, as many times as you like. You can commit yourself as much to Christ as you wish.

V.E.W. This was a heart matter with David.

J.A.G. It is very fine. He is not speaking about the affairs of the kingdom or the economy. He is thinking about God, sitting there, speaking to God about Himself, and he is being sustained in it. He is speaking to God about God's people: he is apprehending the breadth and length and depth and height, and, you might say, he is knowing the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge, and he knows that God is able to do far exceedingly about what he could ever ask or think. Consequently, you can see, there is bound to be glory to God in the assembly. This is the kind of response, the kind of glory, that is going to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus tor evermore.

E.C.B. In these Old Testament times, it would be the house that is filled to all the fulness of God, but now it is in persons.

J.A.G. Exactly. You get the impression here that David is filled full. The idea of fulness is there with him. He cannot hold any more, and that is why the first section that we read shows how God was moving with David to give him capacity to sustain his measure of the fulness.

E.C.B. David would have no difficulty in saying, "And we have the prophetic word made surer."

J.A.G. Exactly. He knows it. The day has dawned and the morning star has arisen in his heart.

D.E.B. So he takes up this title, "thou art that God" the Same. David knew from extensive experience that the God that had had to do with him in relation to what was moral was the same God whose presence he was entering as the unchanging One.

J.A.G. Exactly, and how affecting that is as we think of the eighth of John: "Before Abraham was I am", v 58. How that God, that Person Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground and lifted Himself up. We learn from Him. Your "soul in secret follows The footsteps of His love." Where are all the Pharisees? They all have to go. It does not say a word against the law. That is how to deal with what is moral, I suppose. It says, "Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone at her”, v 7. And they go out and leave the woman. And He stooped down again. She is on different ground. I think she is on new covenant ground whether she appreciated that or not, because He is reconciling her. He is not condemning: He is reconciling the world to Himself. And what the new covenant has in mind is the forgiveness of sins an the gift of the Holy Spirit.

R.E.T. Can you help us with regard to the purpose of God at the present day?

J.A.G. Yes, He wants you to be like Christ: that is the purpose of God for every one here. J.N.D.'s beautiful hymn ‘Like Jesus in that place’.

R.E.T. Is the purpose of God that I might have a portion of His holiness?

J.A.G. You have it: it is yours. It belongs to everybody here, God's love. God loves you as He loves Christ. Suppose there was nobody else in the world but you and you belonged to Christ, He loves you as He loved Christ. Oh how we can rest on that!

J.W. Purpose really cannot be changed: it is affected by our responsible part. It is outside of that.

J.A.G. It is outside of that, hence the importance of the kingdom. To follow F.E.R.'s setting out of it is very beautiful and very orderly. Redemption brings us into the kingdom and in the kingdom our wills are subdued, and this is the moral side, because not only - as somebody said to me - are you body, soul and spirit, but you are will. You might not think so, but there is something in you that is going to run completely counter to the will of God. When we were married we had a verse from somebody - and I did not really appreciate it too much at the time - that says:

'He knows the sigh of sorrow

For the sigh of discontent

He will break your will asunder

Though your heart in twain be rent.'

That is what God does in His blessing to His people.

E.C.B. This all lies behind the remark that the wilderness is not part of God's purpose but of His ways.

J.A.G. Exactly.

"In the desert God will teach thee

What the God that thou hast found."

The kingdom subdues our wills so that we are ready for the teaching of the covenant. He is going to write things on you.

E.C.B. That hymn does not say, in the desert God will teach thee what you are like; but in the desert God will teach you what He is like.

J.A.G. Well, we come to the close as Balaam does and he says, "What hath God wrought!" Num 23: 2. Look at Jacob and Israel, there are the two; that is the responsible side and that is the side of new creation and they are equal. So he says "What hath God wrought! "

J.W. David is completely subject to God here is he not? He comes to it that God's thoughts are greater than his thoughts.

J.A.G. Think of the Psalms that David wrote after this experience! The whole nation was enriched through it. It was a good thought that he and Nathan had about the house. Nathan says, Yes, that is very good: The Lord is with you. You do all that is in thy heart. God says, Wilt thou build me a house to dwell in? He does not get the permission but he gets the plan. He gets the pattern but he is not allowed to build. God says, That is my business. I am going to have my house for myself to live in and your son is going to build it. That is very beautiful! He says, Your son is going to be my son and he is going to build the house, I will be his father and he will be my son.

J.W. So that relationship of father and son was seen in David and Solomon and the influence of that relationship would pervade the whole house.

J.A.G. Of course it does. He says, It is all sovereignty. He is going over it in 1 Chronicles 28 and he says, God chose me to be king. He has given me many sons and out of all those sons he has chosen Solomon my son, and so all the people under David's influence become contributors to Solomon. But the devil says, We are not going to have this: we are going to have Adonijah. There are always crises, but all that is dealt with. No matter how weak the local position is, he says, Call me Bathsheba - bring in the assembly.

D.J.H. Where did David get the pattern? J.A.G. It says he had it by the Spirit. I do not doubt that things are becoming formulated, you might say, in his mind. He did not get it just in a flash. He would say, That is not it: Adonijah is not it. And then he comes to Solomon, he comes to this section here and he sits and is contemplating and he is thinking and is weighing things up in God's presence. We need to do that.

G.C.B. It was the ark he thought of first as a very young man. We do not need to wait to be old to commit ourselves to it.

J.A.G. That is very helpful. It is the ark first and so God says, "I took thee from the pasture-grounds", 1 Chron 17: 7. 'I saw that you were interested in the meetings.' He started a history with God, he meets the lion and the bear, and is taken "from following the sheep.'' The sheep were following Christ: My sheep follow Me. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me", John 10: 27. It is encouraging for younger brethren to follow this line. Be at the meetings! Follow the sheep! Watch where the brethren go! Watch what they do! You will find salvation there. "My sheep hear my voice": they do not follow a stranger. God sees somebody is interested and takes him on. I think that is a very necessary thing, a necessary beginning. First of all it says, he heard of it at Ephratah, in his father's house. He was interested and exercised and so he "found it in the fields of the wood", Psalm 132: 6.

R.E.T. David found a lodging place for the ark. The people were not wholly with him and he found a lodging place, but when he studied that, he took them on to Jerusalem.

J.A.G. Yes, he found a lodging place in the house of Obed-Edom. Well, we have ministry, and it is very good to read it- 'Households in relation to the Ark' - and the ark and Solomon and David are all on that line.

T.H. Can more be said about hearing His voice and how that might apply to ourselves? At one time, "This is my beloved Son ... hear him." That voice was heard. That was said to the disciples, but I wonder if it would also have a bearing upon us.

J.A.G. I think it has a great bearing upon us because the Father has not stopped speaking. It makes the Lord's Supper and the service of God such an interesting place. You might say that a lot of things are by the way but the Father is delighting to call attention to Christ and to the saints. I think if you listen intently you will hear it. It requires maturity, but divine grace meets us and who can say how mature we really are? Divine grace serves us gently, and in the utmost kindness, that we might be drawn to God's side. It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance (Rom 2: 4). That is how you know God for a start and the Lord's voice. It all comes by the Spirit and by way of impressions. You may have been praying, speaking to God, and something happens in your soul, and you can rely on that and build upon it.

T.H. I think what you are saying is right, that it comes through the Spirit and while one is praying. It comes also through the word in the ministry; that also would be by the Spirit.

J.A.G. Yes, it comes by the Spirit, whether it is the ministry meeting, the service of God, or wherever it comes. You are going over things in your mind and then it comes.

E.O.P.M. You might find it in the "fields of the wood", a little meeting, six brethren together, and you will find the ark.

J.A.G. Yes, the ''fields of the wood" are not the best place for it. The place for it - and I understand what you are saying and it is very fine - is in the hearts of these few brethren. That is where it is.

E.O.P.M. I was thinking of what our brother was saying about the young people; they and sometimes us older ones, get discouraged and perhaps even despise the circumstances where God has set us. Is it a great thing to see that the greatest things are available in what may outwardly appear to be the most disadvantaged conditions?

J.A.G. Absolutely, and probably the conditions that seem most disadvantageous are the conditions that God has ordered in order that we might really get Christ. You can draw nothing from disadvantageous conditions so you are cast upon the Lord and He is an unfailing friend.

 

REDBRIDGE

7 December 1996

 

Key to initials

R.H.Brown, Barnet; D.A.Burr, London; D.E.Burr, Redbridge; E.C.Burr, London; G.C.Bywater, Buckhurst Hill; J.A.Gardiner, Aberdeen; J.S.Gray, Barnet; T.Harvey, Barnet; D.Hawgood, Bexley; D.J.Hutson, London; H.A.Hutson, London; P.Martin, Colchester; M.Matthews, Birmingham; E.O.P.Mutton, Frinton; G.Napthine, Colchester; E.Oliver Redbridge; D.E. Remmington, St Albans; M.Saunders. Herne Bay; R.E.Turner Bexley; J.W-w J.Walkinshaw, Bexley; E.F.Woodford Dorking; V.E.Wraighte, Gillingham; D.J.Wright, Redbridge; J.Wright, Redbridge