THE FATHER'S PLACE IN THE ECONOMY
Ephesians 3: 14-21; 1 Corinthians 15: 28
C.H. The scripture in 1 Corinthians 8: 6 referred to earlier sets out the formal position, we may say, between the Father and the Lord Jesus. We may not always observe the punctuation in that verse: "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him"; that is, the Father is the author and the originator of all things; "and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". Notice the 'of' in relation to God the Father and the 'by' in relation to Christ. This bears on the fact that we only know divine Persons as They have come into the sphere of revelation.
C.M. In Colossians 1: 16 all things are created "for him", that is, Christ.
C.H. Christ acted mediatorially all through, but the intelligent understanding of that did not come out until the full truth was declared.
C.M. We do not limit Him to what is mediatorial.
C.H. No, we cannot limit the Lord to any position He assumes. What we have read in 1 Corinthians 15: 28 is to show that the mediatorial position of Christ goes through into eternity. It is well to be clear as to that. To be with God eternally we shall need a mediator, for God is God and we shall still be creatures. Even in new creation we are still creatures and therefore One in a mediatorial position is needed, and that one is Christ.
C.M. He is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15 as "the Son". Would that link with John 17 where the glory given to Him is given to us and we are associated with Him as sons? God has come into expression in the Son.
C.H. So that Colossians 1 states that when Christ was here in flesh, the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him. In the second chapter (v 9) it says "For in him dwells all the fulness of the godhead bodily": it adds 'bodily' for He is man now in a glorified condition. What we should inquire into is, why the apostle in Ephesians 3 bows his knees to the Father in considering this great subject. It indicates the place that the Father has assumed in the economy. "My Father is greater than I" (John 14: 28) was quoted earlier this morning, and also "my Father... is greater than all", John 10: 29. We cannot limit the Lord to any position He assumes, but we can see that He has assumed a position in which He is placed in subjection, as 1 Corinthians 15: 28 says. It does not say who places Him in subjection; it may even be that He places Himself in that position; but He assumes a mediatorial role throughout eternity. If he does not, and ceases to be Man, we have no link with God. Yet He always remains what He is essentially. The position that Christ has assumed is important, for it says, to God "be the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus". He is the means by which God will be glorified eternally in the assembly.
D.E.R. Our knowledge of divine Persons is entirely apprehended through the positions which They have taken up relatively.
C.H. It can only be so, but we cannot limit Them to those positions.
D.E.R. So the Father has ever remained in essential deity, and hence takes the place of God to us.
C.H. Mr Darby wrote that the Father remained in simple deity, needing to be revealed, and He has been revealed in the Son.
R.E.T. Do you have an exercise regarding addressing the Father as God and Father?
C.H. I have thought a good deal about what Mr Taylor sen said years ago, that the double appellation, God and Father, expresses reverence. I would not hinder liberty to speak to the Father by that name; indeed "whereby we cry, Abba, Father " (Rom 8: 15) gives us scriptural warrant for so doing. But because the Father has come out in grace and relationship we should not lack reverence on that account. The catholic epistles mostly refer to Him as God and Father.
C.H.S. Is "of whom all things, and we for him" similar to what you spoke of earlier as to what He "purposed in himself", Eph 1: 9?
C.H. Yes. Think of a Person great enough to purpose in Himself to do certain things! We know from other scriptures that other divine Persons were with Him in those counsels on terms of equality. Love was there, of course, yet not related to any except Themselves. Speaking of the Absolute Mr Darby says it is 'selfexistence, love, purity’ (Vol 32, p.28). Human language fails, yet love evidently existed, but it did not come into expression as to ourselves until the Son declared God.
R.E.T. John 1: 1 refers to the depths of God.
C.H. "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us", John says. We shall never see the Father except in the Son. We must accept the fact that divine Persons have assumed these positions. But I think the apostle bows his knees to the Father because he felt the need of approaching a subject such as we are on now, in a priestly way in order to get the gain of what is almost to the limit of our apprehension.
R.E.T. So the title God and Father brings in a spirit of reverence.
C.H. In the service of God it is as well to note that the title generally employed in the epistles is God and Father.
C.H.S. "My Father and your Father" comes before "my God and your God" in John 20.
C.H. You cannot reach the second without the first. But at times, in our anxiety to reach the 'ultimate' in the service, much of what we say to God could be addressed to the Father. There is not a fourth Person, but at times expressions might convey that impression.
D.E.R. You mean that we widen out from the Father's realm to the full thought of God.
C.H. To address God is not exactly a greater thought. How can you have anything greater than deity, which applies to any one of the three Persons? They do not have part in deity because deity is indivisible.
D.E.R. But we need help as to the point you have in mind - that a greater part of the service could be addressed to the Father.
C.H. I think it is more appropriate, as when we were together this morning. What is addressed to God, including the three Persons, could mostly, but not entirely, be in song. The hymn writers have been helped by the Spirit to put the truth into suitable expression.
C.H.S. I should like help regarding the Father remaining in His position in deity. In speaking to the Father I always feel impressed with the way He has come near to us in the Son.
C.H. Mr Taylor sen said 'the Father remains in the absoluteness of the Deity' (N.S. Vol. 91, p.292). Throughout eternity we shall only see the Father in the Son.
D.E.R. The greatness of the person of the Father lies behind the relationship of love in which He is toward us.
C.H. It is that Person who "purposed in himself" to do certain things who has come near to us in relativity.
C.H.S. That applies to each of the divine Persons.
C.H. What is essential to Them remains, but the Son and the Spirit have come into relative positions to the Father.
C.M. In the service we are occupied with the Son and the Spirit in the relative positions into which They have come, but They are not to be limited to that. The worship of God at the close of the meeting would help us to get beyond any thought of limiting Them. We need to remember that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not only in relativity.
C.H. Those are the names They have taken, by which we can address Them; but when quoting Matthew 28 we should include the conjunctions.
D.E.R. You mean the name is "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".
C.H. That is, three distinct Persons, but one name.
C.M. Although we are thinking of Them there in equality, yet you could not reverse the order.
C.H. No, for that is the way They are known; we can only go by what has been revealed. So we can only know the Father and the Son and the Spirit by the relative names They have taken. But when it says that God shall be all in all, those we know as the Son and the Spirit have Their part in that, or rather, are included in the title 'God'.
C.H.S. At the end of the morning meeting we used to address each Person and then conclude by referring to God. Was that correct?
C.H. It just depends on what is in our minds when we speak to God.
R.E.T. Is there not a sensibility about coming into the presence of God at the end of the meeting?
C.H. There is reverential response.
C.M. In Ephesians 3 Paul is making use of the access he has spoken of in chap 2: 18. I thought that had some link with 1 Corinthians 15 and the Son in subjection, for our access throughout eternity will be through Him.
C.H. He is placed in subjection that God may be all in all. Yet the three Persons we know in relativity have relations outside of ourselves entirely, in terms of equality of which we know nothing; but we apprehend that such is the case. When fully revealed, God is revealed in three Persons. What can we say as to this, as Mr Darby said, 'where all are God, all one God, God all three' (Vol 32, p.16 ). We cannot speak of Them as having the same will, but one will and several willings. These are deep things, but we are to have the spiritual intelligence which is referred to in Ephesians 1: 17 - "the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart". That is, both the perceptive faculties and the affections enter into the matter. Unless we approach these profound truths with our affections moved toward divine Persons we shall lack depth of feelings proper to the approach.
R.E.T. With regard to this title, would we learn something more of the mercy and greatness of God?
C.H. Yes, what you refer to are His attributes. In the service we should touch what God is in His nature, which is love, and love is our link with eternal realities.
D.E.R. God is also light, yet in one sense light must be relative, but love is absolute.
C.H. God is light in relation to darkness, but love is His nature. We cannot say that it is what He is essentially because we do know that. Love is our link, and the divine nature is formed in the saints and answers to the love of divine Persons.
C.M. Is there a link between "the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him", referred to in chapter 1, and the being "filled even to all the fulness of God" in chapter 3?
C.H. "Filled even to all the fulness of God" does not mean that we can compass what God is. It has been likened to filling a bucket with the ocean, but you have not then contained the ocean.
A.L.S. Is this like "waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over", Ezek 47: 5?
C.H. That is true. Sometimes the Lord presents the truth so that we feel its greatness. It is to draw out our hearts to divine Persons and that we should know more about the relative positions They have taken. But the place the Father should have in the service of God should be relative to the position He has taken in the economy.
F.G.M. Verses 18 to 20 are in the plural, so we need all the saints.
C.H. As I sat here this morning I thought of God looking over this cathedral city and of all the redeemed in it. Our first hymn referred to the redeemed. What did the loaf represent? It represented all the redeemed. Then where are they? Alas, they are not all with us. All we can do is to present ourselves to the Lord.
C.H.S. Does the loaf represent all the redeemed on earth at the present time?
C.H. Yes; most of the assembly are "with Christ" I suppose.
C.M. What does apprehending with all saints mean?
C.H. You will notice that the word is 'apprehend' not 'comprehend'. The natural mind cannot comprehend all that has come out, but at least we can apprehend that divine Persons have come into an economy and have come within our range in a Man.
C.M. Although John on Patmos was receiving revelations by himself, do you think that he was apprehending with all the saints?
C.H. He speaks of being "your brother and fellowpartaker", Rev. 1:9. He was thoroughly with the brethren even if he was completely isolated.
F.G.M. Would what we apprehend with all the saints be related to the love that is referred to in verse 17?
C.H. "To know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge". We are to know the love of a divine Person who became Man. It passes understanding but it sustains the s<1ints in view of being filled to all the fulness of God.
D.E.R. While it may seem beyond us, yet what we are in touch with is finite, not infinite.
C.H. We cannot compass what is infinite. If God is not what He is, things would be reduced to the level of man's understanding. Mr Darby says that Christ 'is not as truth the Absolute in itself; but He is the Absolute in Himself' (Vol 32, p.28). We need to consider a remark like that. The truth itself is relative; even the name 'God' is relative. We do not know whether the Persons of the Godhead have names between Themselves or even whether They need them. But love is revealed, love that has found expression in three divine Persons.
C.H.S. So that love is our link with the infinite.
C.H. That has often been said and I think we prove It.
D.E.R. "No one has seen God at any time; the onlybegotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:18.
C.H. It is God who has been declared, but the Son is in that advantageous position as in the bosom of the Father, who represents God in the economy.
C.M. For us to lay hold of the love there is in God, this father-and-son relationship was necessary to make it evident.
C.H. What did the disciples behold? "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father". That is the glory they saw. A simile is used so that we might understand the glory they saw. Lower down it reads, "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". That refers to the Lord's unique position when here in flesh as well as now.
R.E.T. Can you help us in regard to being "filled even to all the fulness of God"?
C.H. That depends on what precedes it, that is "to know the love of the Christ", because the love of Christ involves His position as Minister of the sanctuary, which is in view of God getting the fullest response from the saints. We are filled with what is knowable, but we are on the verge of what is infinite.
C.H.S. Paul says "if any one love God, he is known of him" (1 Cor 8: 3), which shows the importance of love.
C.H. It does, for love is the link, and it will be so eternally. Think of a sphere that will be pervaded by love!
D.E.R. Mr Raven said that being "filled even to all the fulness of God" was in view of there being testimony.
C.H. The unfallen heavenly intelligences are looking down and can see in the assembly "the all-various wisdom of God", Eph 3: 10. That all-various wisdom involves the economy and sonship.
R.E.T. So there is a possibility by the Spirit of apprehending the fulness of God.
C.H. We need to be strengthened by the Father’s Spirit to reach that. We are also to "know the love of the Christ" - the One whom God has anointed in relation to what is for His pleasure.
R.E.T. There is distinct power with a person who really knows God.
C.H. With the enlightened eyes of our heart we accord the Father the place He has assumed in the economy. That is Their arrangement. The Lord accepts this fully, for in eternity "the Son also Himself shall be placed in subjection to him, that God may be all in all".
D.E.R. We should know something of the power which works in us.
C.H.S. Personally one often feels how unequal one is for these things, but this causes us to value the Spirit's help.
C.H. The great theme of revelation is the Father and the Son, but the Spirit gives power so that these truths become intelligible to us. Access therefore is through Christ but by one Spirit. We come into the Father's presence through the Man that is there, but in the power of one Spirit. Hymn 14 says, 'By the Spirit all pervading'; the Spirit has His part in all this.
C.M. So we cannot really enjoy the access without the Spirit's strengthening at the time.
C.H. The Spirit is the power for the apprehension and enjoyment of these very blessed truths.
A.C.S. You said the title 'God' was relative. Can you help as to that? Is that His name in relationship to men?
C.H. Yes, God has assumed a name by which He can be in relation to all men.
A.C.S. Then when we come into relationship with Him we know Him as Father, but not before.
D.E.R. That magnifies to us the wonder of the present dispensation.
C.H. How do we know God? It is only through the glory of the incarnation, that One who was God became Man; otherwise God would be unknown.
C.H.S. So the ark is a great type of Christ. The mercy seat and all the contents of the ark represent the way God has come out in a Man.
A.C.S. Is the nearest we come to apprehending what is absolute conveyed in the title 'I am'?
C.H. Yes. In Exodus 3:14 God reveals Himself to Moses as "I AM THAT I AM", and when Moses is sent to the people he is told to say that " I AM" had sent him. The name involves the self-existent One. Whatever dispensation of time is spoken of, "I am" remains. The Lord could say, "Before Abraham was, I am", John 8:58.
C.M. In this dispensation there is not only the greatness of what we can apprehend but there is something in the saints as filled to all the fulness of God.
C.H. Surely, and when Christ was raised from among the dead the assembly was raised. Paul speaks in Ephesians 1 of the "surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead" (vv.19,20). What God had in mind was to have others like and with Christ.
C.H.S. Otherwise there would be no point in His becoming Man.
C.H. John says "the grain of wheat falling into the ground die... bears much fruit", John 12: 24. We might say that wicked hands took Him and crucified Him, but that is hardly the point in John. His falling into the ground and dying was a deliberate act. Death is not mentioned in John 13: 3, though it is implied when it speaks of His coming out from God and going back to God. The Lord had to go by way of death to establish an order of things untouched by death. We need to be governed by what has come out in the economy, in the sphere of revelation, where God has become known in three Persons. All this is profound, but may we each be able to say with Mr Darby that it is 'sunshine to my heart'.
ST.ALBANS
9 November 1975
Key to initials (St.Albans unless otherwise noted)
C.H. C.Hammond (London); C.M. C.Middleton, F.G.M. F.G.Mitchell; D.E.R. D.E.Remmington, A.L.S. A.L.Stay ; C.H.S. C.H.Stay; R.E.T. R.E.Turner