SUFFERING
RIW It will be evident from the scriptures suggested that what is in mind to consider is this matter of suffering. Many of the Lord’s people have been called upon to endure it currently, and some in a protracted way. I think the Lord has His hand upon that and evidently, He is desirous that we should hear His voice in it. We perhaps think of suffering as simply a consequence of condition and circumstance, but I wondered if the scriptures we have read would encourage us to help us to see how it is regarded by divine Persons. The scriptures are full of suggestions of it, and the Old Testament is particularly full of the thought of suffering, which would indicate for us that it has a very prominent place in the divine mind.
I wondered if we could start with what we have read in Peter and consider the Lord as the supreme Sufferer. Peter speaks a lot as to suffering; he had been a witness of the sufferings; he says that later on in the book - a witness of the sufferings and partaker of the glory (chap 5: 1) - and they had left their mark upon him. As he writes to these sojourners, he takes up the thought and it is not long before he draws attention to Christ. He brings out that it was the occupation of the prophets, there was that which was testified beforehand, the spirit of Christ was in them; and he uses this beautiful expression “the sufferings which belonged to Christ”. I feel very measured as suggesting this because the sufferings of Christ are a holy matter, but I think that the thought is that we get the divine view as to what this matter of suffering really means. Paul said to Timothy, “Take thy share in suffering” (2 Tim 2: 3), as if there is an allotted portion for Timothy to fill out.
Christ’s portion was every suffering: “the sufferings which belonged to the Christ”. It says of Him in relation to the people of God that “In all their affliction he was afflicted”, Isa 63: 9. We are to be thankful for the spirit that was in these prophets, and for the scriptures that bring out something of the feelings of Christ in relation to those sufferings. Some of us were recently looking at the Psalms, and it struck me that the Lord, as we read of Him in the gospels, was largely silent as to what it meant for Him to endure what He did. We have several occasions where He expresses it, Gethsemane being one of them; but how thankful we can be for the spirit of Christ which was in these ones of old who could bring out something of His feelings in relation to what belonged to Him. I wondered if it would help us and set our affections right to freshly consider the One who was the supreme Sufferer.
The scripture in the second chapter brings out that He is to be a model for us. It says, “For to this have ye been called”. That is a remarkable thing, that suffering is part of our calling. So that things do not happen incidentally or by chance, but it forms part of what we are called to and Christ is the Model for us in it. And if He is the Model for us I think, as the writer of the Hebrews says, we need to, “consider well him who endured so great contradiction from sinners against himself”, chap 12: 3. He is the Model so that we might “follow in his steps”. We can be assured that whatever we are called upon to have part in, and we feel for many of our brethren that endure much, we can always be assured that we have the sympathy of Christ, and we can take account of Him - the One that has endured every suffering. I think if we are called upon to have part in that it gives the whole thought of suffering a great dignity. And so we are called upon Him to follow Him.
I thought we could look at the section of scripture in Hebrews which presents more the matter of suffering as the divinely appointed way. What lies before the writer is the “bringing many sons to glory”; that is what God has set out to do. But then there is the question of the way in which He is going to do that, the way He is going to accomplish His great purpose. And we have the Lord Jesus presented here as a leader for us. I was encouraged by the hymn we sang (Hymn 139) that He has gone before, He is the great Leader, and He has been made perfect, and is fully qualified to fill that office. As a Leader He is there too as a High Priest able to sympathise.
In Exodus, we have the matter of the anointing of the whole tent of meeting; the whole system was to be anointed. I think the thought of the anointing is what God identifies Himself with through the Spirit. The whole system was to be anointed with this oil and these instructions as to what was to be used in this anointing oil were given. I could not say what these ingredients refer to in their detail but myrrh was there, and the size of this ingredient was very prominent; so I think that there would have been the fragrance of it in the whole system that was anointed. The assembly is now the anointed vessel. When Christ was here He was anointed, but God has publicly identified Himself now with His people by the Holy Spirit and it seems there is a suggestion of suffering in it.
Then in Revelation I thought of the Lamb’s wife. John was called to view the Lamb’s wife, a view of the great vessel, the assembly, which is here for the sake of Christ. He was here and upheld and maintained God’s rights at all cost to Himself. John was told that the Lion of the tribe of Judah had overcome, but he saw a Lamb, (chap 5: 5-6), which is a diminutive thought, and I wondered if this great city which John sees is what has been established and maintained in the spirit of suffering. These very prominent features of the city, its foundations and its walls and its gates, are beautified here, and it is all very suggestive of what is being held for Christ in circumstances of suffering. I think we need to get a view of this so that we are ready to let go of natural thoughts and advantage and be prepared for suffering. That is my thought, but it is going to need the help of the brethren to bring it out.
RWMcC It is a very profitable line of enquiry. We speak of suffering but often at the same time you are conscious that others have been given much more than has been given us to suffer. But I think to start with the Lord and to see “the sufferings which belonged to the Christ” is a very tender and beautiful expression. And what it says in the chapter in Hebrews “to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings”; it is the divine way that God has operated. It really characterises the dispensation.
RIW It helps us to see that in many ways “the sufferings which belonged to the Christ” involved that which we will never have to endure; we can be bowed in the sense of it, all that He has endured. Of course everything was effected for us by it, but I wondered if we would just get the sense that if we are called upon, and scripture tells us we are, then there is great dignity attached to it because Christ Himself has been a sufferer and supreme in it.
RWMcC So there are those aspects which man could never enter into; we could never enter some of those sufferings of the Christ: “Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us”, 2 Cor 5: 21.
RIW It affected me thinking about it, that the Lord spent a lot of time with His disciples telling them about His sufferings; and what He spoke of to them was largely what He would suffer from the hands of man. You get the sense that He is seeking to teach them and prepare them for such a pathway. But then you have that moment in John’s gospel, “Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour”, chap 12: 27. He could not express in words what that meant to Him, words were not enough, it was beyond them to know and yet He would teach them in what they were able for.
RDP We think of suffering, and we think of physical things immediately, which it would involve, but I was thinking about the Lord Jesus when He was here: you said that there were things just hinted at in scripture. For instance, when He came down to Jerusalem for the last time, He wept over it (Luke 19: 41); “how often would I have gathered thy children as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”, Matt 23: 37. I think I read somewhere that it was suffering for the Lord even to walk here on the street in a world that was so corrupted by sin. And that was suffering, not physical things which we would perhaps immediately think of; there was that of course, but what is special to Him that is just hinted at.
RIW He says “thou knewest not the season of thy visitation”, Luke 19: 44. It is in Isaiah it says, “I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and in vain”, chap 49: 4. Think of what He felt because of the unresponsive character of His earthly people, “We have piped to you, and ye have not danced: we have mourned to you, and ye have not wailed”, Matt 11: 17. The Lord felt all that in His spirit which as you say would have all been part of His sufferings.
RWMcC He would have known that this would have been the putting off of Israel. In time they will be taken up again, but I was thinking of the suffering that we cannot enter into.
RIW Yes, His ministry was largely to them, and of course there were those who had to do with Him and got the blessing, but there they were before Pilate, crying for Him to be crucified. He felt all of that, did He not?
PM John says at the beginning of his gospel, “He came to his own” (chap.1: 11): they were His own, but they shut the door on Him, “and his own received him not”. How He must have felt that! “He came to his own”.
RIW I think these things are to affect us and it helps us to have all of this in mind as we read the gospels, to see all that He was bearing. Outwardly there was a wonderful ministration of grace towards men, and He was ever available. But the suffering would have been a daily thing, and He felt the utter rejection of the people to whom he came!
AM And He came knowing perfectly what was before Him. For us any sufferings we may endure tend to be what is laid upon us, but He came into a condition in which He could suffer and knowing all the sufferings that were before Him.
RIW And He was prepared for that path. At one point they were offended in Him because His face was turned to go to Jerusalem, Luke 9: 53. He had it all before Him, the whole course of suffering which was His.
TJH You mentioned testifying before of His sufferings and the sufferings that He would have at the hands of man, and these other sufferings of coming to His own: is it also in your mind that the glories that are revealed are also testified of before?
RIW There is always an answer to suffering. God will see to it; it is a moral necessity that sufferings must be answered in glory.
MIW The suffering in itself is not the end; it is a divinely appointed way in view of glory. The Lord could say that as to Himself to the two on the way to Emmaüs; it links with this scripture, “Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into his glory”, Luke 24: 26. It is a principle for man established there, is it?
RIW Yes, and as you say it is not the end, but it is the means of proving the moral qualification to bear glory. I think that is something that is brought out as a principle with God.
DAB I noticed a distinction in relation to the sufferings in the last two scriptures. We have the precious stones in Revelation which are formed under pressure. You could not apply that thought of formation to the Lord Jesus, but it is the foundation of the holy city; there is what is abiding that has been arrived at in that way. But in the spices in the anointing oil, the crushing is used to release what is there. It is the only way of finding out what is there. It has its application to us, but it is very profound what Peter says, that the Christ must suffer. It is not simply because everything around is so bad, but it was God’s chosen way to bring out the good that was there, do you think?
RIW I think it is expressed in the second chapter; it says, “when reviled, reviled not again”; all of those things brought out what was there; it brought out moral perfection. The sufferings gave opportunity for it to be seen. The whole point to the anointing oil was that there should be fragrance. I suppose with us, God uses suffering to bring out what is of Himself; it is by way of a formed work within us.
DAB The tabernacle was God’s dwelling place, was it not? The priest had liberty to enter in so far, but the whole atmosphere of the place was pervaded by what suffering had brought into expression. God chose that it should be thus.
RIW You use the word pervade and I was thinking of the city: “the lamp thereof is the Lamb”, the light was the love of One who had suffered; it pervaded the whole city. And the nations will walk in its light. It gives us an idea of what it is in the sight of God. It is to bring out what is there, of course intrinsically in Christ, but the sufferings do bring out what is of His own work in His people. It would be a matter of refining going on, bringing out what is precious, but nonetheless it is brought out by suffering.
AJMcK So what came out was for the divine appreciation; it was not appreciated by men, it was not appreciated by Israel, “He came to his own, and his own received him not”; it was for the divine appreciation: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight”, Matt 17: 5. Think of what was bound up in that, an appreciation of everything that came out through that pathway of pressure.
RIW That is helpful, and the whole pathway of suffering was the means by which it was released; all that fragrance to God was released. It helps us to see suffering in that light, do you think?
AJMcK Yes, I love this expression, “sufferings which belonged to Christ”. We often think of His distinctiveness in relation to His glory, but His sufferings are an essential part of His distinctiveness as set apart from every other man.
RIW And such were these sufferings to the heart of God that we are called upon to follow Him in suffering. In Philippians Paul says of his desire to know Christ, “and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings” (chap 3: 10); that was a reference to the character of sufferings to which we are called to have part.
GMcK Would you give us a touch about this expression, “sufferings which belonged to Christ”? I think you mentioned those that were unique to Him; there is something that we have no part in. There were sufferings that belonged to Christ. I wondered if it would be good to get a touch of that.
RIW Peter loved the Lord and expressed a desire to follow Him, which he did. Peter’s heart was in the right place, he had a desire to be with the Lord in such a pathway, but there was a point where the Lord says, “thou canst not follow me”, John 13: 36. It was not his part, not his place; it was the Lord going forward to become the Sin-bearer, to face the awful judgment and forsaking of God, all of which we will never know. It was not Peter’s place to have part in that.
DAB I sometimes wonder as to Romans 8: 18, where Paul brings out that our sufferings and the glory are not to be compared with each other, that is how we are to view our own path. But I wondered if, when we consider the sufferings and glory of Christ, we would say there was an equivalence? Scripture says, “He that descended is the same who has also ascended”, Eph 4: 10. While we cannot measure either, the greatness of the glory which He entered into did find its answer in what was expressed in that suffering way.
RIW Yes; we have the uniqueness of that suffering way brought out in the prophets and the psalms which bring out some of His feelings as to that. We were reading some of them not so long ago: for example, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”, Ps 22: 1. It goes on to say, “Our fathers confided in thee … and thou didst deliver them” (v 4), “But I am a worm” (v 6); that brings out something of what those sufferings were to His holy soul. It is beautiful to see the Spirit of Christ in such scriptures that give us a sense of what it was for Him.
GMcK It needs to be a deep thing with us, if we take up Him as a Model and a Leader, and we take our part, we have a very clear understanding that He has gone further than we will ever have to go on this line. There are things, such as the wrath of God, that He faced; we will never! And the forsaking, and other elements: I think it is good to contemplate that as we take up our part. His being a Leader does not mean that I can go anywhere near what He has accomplished.
RIW It is good to make that point. We can only adore when we think of all that belonged to Him.
TJH I was thinking of your reference to the uniqueness of the sufferings and the glory of the Lord Jesus. We have quoted already, “Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into his glory?”. That is the model, His glory, and His sufferings are unique to Him, but we can follow as to that example, bearing in mind His uniqueness in it.
RIW I am sure that is right. It really bears out the principle that the suffering in that sense must precede the glory. God will bring out everything, as the last scripture says, in glorious display to demonstrate what suffering is in its character under His eye.
DJW There is no shame in tears, is there? I was thinking of what Paul says to Timothy, “remembering thy tears”, 2 Tim 1: 4. We get the expression twice in relation to the Lord’s tears, in relation to Lazarus (John 11: 35), and in relation to the nation of Israel, Luke 19: 41. I was thinking we need to be sympathetic with one another in regard of what we are passing through.
RIW I think so. We were speaking of the body earlier in the week and I think the feelings of one another are drawn out in relation to what one and another pass through; I think we prove that. What we are called upon to pass through is God’s matter, but it brings out the side of feeling one for the other.
JMB We have spoken about the uniqueness of Christ, and I was thinking of Moses, who was a type of Christ, and he chose to suffer affliction, Heb 11: 25. You have suggested that the suffering is laid upon us, but Moses too was unique inasmuch as he chose to suffer the affliction along with the people of God.
RIW Yes, that is good! He was prepared for it. I suppose that confirms what we read in Exodus that the people of God were associated with a suffering position, and he chose to suffer with them. I think that we need to be prepared for it. We feel very measured in that; we should feel measured by it because we do not know how long it is till the Lord comes, but it seems to me at the present moment that His voice in current circumstances is raising the exercise with us as to our preparedness for suffering.
RJG The Lord’s glory in obedience was seen in His sufferings, in bringing in the greatness of His person, He “loved righteousness” and “hated lawlessness”, Heb 1: 9. He loved the will of the Father; He was fully committed.
RIW Yes, it was His food in that sense, and it sustained Him through His sufferings. He moved here in the conscious sense of the Father’s love in all the circumstances; it was what sustained Him in it. He was morally superior to them but the sufferings were no less real. Even in the darkest hour, in the court of Pilate with all the false accusations, all the reproaches, He was morally superior to it. He “endured the cross, having despised the shame” (Heb 12: 2); that is His moral perfection!
PM In Genesis 22 we get the reference, “they went both of them together”, v 6. Does that give us some impression of what it meant to the Father to see and be with His own beloved Son in going that way, step by step; and every step was perfect and every motive was perfect and every feeling was holy. What delight that must have given, the incense, fragrant!
RIW Yes, that ties in with what our brother was saying, what it was for the Father. We have His secret life, which was for the Father, but when He came out in His public service it drew the efforts of the enemy. I thought of that with the anointing; the enemy was concentrated against one who God had identified Himself with. But in such circumstances it brought out His moral perfection and all was for the delight of the Father.
PM It says as to the incense that it was beaten to powder (Exod 30: 36); how affecting that is in those movements of the Lord Jesus.
DAB I was just noticing in relation to what has been said as to obedience that the Lord says, “that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father has commanded me, thus I do”, John 14: 31. The world has no taste for the fragrance that was expressed in “thus I do”; the features of moral worth that came out which transform our view of that dark time.
RIW I think I remember you suggesting that the ram caught in the thicket (Gen 22: 13) was a suggestion of what you have just brought forward; He was held in obedience, that “the world may know that I love the Father”; there was a testimony rendered that whatever the circumstances were - and also how He loved the Father - and come what may, He would glorify Him!
DJW Is that what the expression in Hebrews 2 means, “it became him”. It is a remarkable expression. What precedes it is “he should taste death for everything”; He did not just go through it; it brought out some intricacy of His Person. It was suitable to such a One to suffer.
RIW It was proper to Him to suffer. It is a remarkable thing to think of!
RWMcK I think it could be rendered, ‘fitting’. I am not suggesting that that is a better word than this, but it does help to give the sense.
RIW I was thinking about Moses, he could say after the incident of the golden calf, ‘Thou sayest that Thou wilt bring us up, but show me the way’, Exod 33: 12, 13. We were recently reading of the mount of transfiguration, and it says of Moses and Elias that they appeared with the Lord and they were speaking with Him as to His departure, Luke 9: 31. For the time they appeared in glory with the Lord but it did not appear in this record to be their occupation, their occupation was the way. They spoke of His departure, and I recalled that Moses was one that had been shown the way. It involved for the Lord that He might suffer death. We often say for Him death was death, that was something unique to the Lord.
AJMcK What is involved in “tasting death”?
RIW What can we say! For the Lord He faced it in all its awfulness, to Him death was death: ‘And for Him death was death. Man's utter weakness, Satan's extreme power, and God’s just vengeance’ (JND Collected Writings vol 7 p169); the Lord tasted that.
DAB I wondered if it was what we were speaking of just now, what we cannot share. It is an inward thing, and we cannot share that.
RIW I think that helps, and the way for Him is that which we cannot have part in; He tasted death so that we will never have to.
AJMcK The scripture says, “he should taste death for every thing”. I wondered if it just gives us a view of the depths of these sufferings we are speaking of, that at every step of that life, He had encountered what was touched by death, and He tasted death for everything. This is something that we cannot touch, only He could touch it, but He tasted it for absolutely everything.
RIW That is how I understand it: everything that came under the power of death by sin, He tasted death for. Now not all may come into the good of His work, but He tasted death for every thing, and it says ‘every one’ in the note, (note ‘f’).
RWMcC I often think of Ezekiel’s bread; it speaks about being made with human dung, and God mitigated it when he cried out (Ezek 4: 12-17); so it says, “I have given thee cow’s dung”. It was unmitigated for the Lord when He tasted death.
RIW What can we say as to it! It involved the extremity of what death was.
PM The Originator of life has felt the pains of death, “having loosed the pains of death”, Acts 2: 24. He felt what it was to lie there in death! It is a mystery to us, but it was something that only He could feel.
RIW I am sure that is right. He lay in death. God was without His Christ.
TJH It goes on to “bringing many sons to glory”, that is a result of what He tasted do you think?
RIW He recoiled from it; He could say, “My soul is very sorrowful even unto death”, Matt 26: 38. He looked for sympathy, Ps 69: 20. He recoiled from what death meant, but in His obedience He went that way and He went through with it all; and in doing so opened up the way for many sons to be brought to glory. I suppose in the measure that we follow Him we follow Him in the way. The sufferings would bring out that we are sons by God’s purpose; that is what He has set His heart on, but He brings out the moral worth and moral qualifications of the sons brought to glory in such a way.
DAB It has been said in relation to 1 Peter 2: 24 that we are not called upon to suffer what He suffered: He bore our sins in His body on the tree, but we are called upon to suffer as He suffered. I find that test enough! We speak about the momentary character of our afflictions, but in what spirit do I enter into them: are these moral features that were expressed in a pathway of Jesus, anything that anyone could see?
RIW Perhaps that brings us on to the thought of the anointing because Peter does go on to say, “If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye; for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you”, chap 4: 14. Do you think that would link with the way that we suffer?
DAB I noticed how the anointing singles out all the things that speak of Christ personally; the table, the lampstand, the altar, the laver and so on, but also the utensils. So that especially service, and especially service towards God, is looked for in the Spirit.
RIW Yes, I think the whole thought is really what would be for the pleasure of God; the spirit of a suffering Christ, the way He suffered.
GMcK I wanted to ask what is included; you speak about these sufferings and anyone sitting here may be wondering what these sufferings are for us. What is included, in your mind?
RIW Well, men speak of suffering, and they do not get the thought as it is in relation to God. We have Christ for a Model, so, for example, He suffered for righteousness; that is doing what is right. Now in the current course and stream of things doing what is right will attract suffering.
GMcK You mean there may be reproach in it?
RIW The Lord knew what it was to face reproach, we read that it broke His heart, Ps 69: 20. We are called upon to suffer for Him, suffer for the Lord, which would require faithfulness to Him. It is a position of suffering that we are called to. We can see here that God identifies Himself with that position.
TJH If we do what is right then we may get contradiction; that is something of the suffering that we ourselves would bear. It speaks of the Lord Jesus suffering contradiction, Heb 12: 3.
RIW I suppose we have examples of the way in which we suffer; we have Stephen, Acts 7. Think of what was seen in him; he was called upon to suffer.
GMcK The man in John 9 that the Lord met was cast out; he lost his place altogether here, that would be included.
DAB-w We have been helped recently when it was pointed out that resisting temptation is a suffering; simply, my flesh would want to do it and resisting it involves suffering. That scripture where we have Christ who has been tempted in all things, sin apart, helps us even in relation to that, Heb 4: 15. Can we add that thought of suffering in resisting temptation to this thought too?
RIW We were reading of the temptations this week. There was nothing that Satan found with the Lord; there was no inward struggle there that we may experience, but He was tempted in all things.
DAB-w I wanted to know whether it would be right to make the link. Our brother referenced His walk at the start of the reading and how every step involved suffering, and it just struck me He was tempted on every hand in the way that the world was against His Father and He endured it, sin apart. Is that another way in which temptation can impress us? He is able to bear it sin apart: does that extend the thought of being tempted in all things?
RIW I think being tempted in all things means Satan brought before Him everything that he brings before us, and he found nothing in Him, “sin apart”. There was nothing in Him that Satan could appeal to. But He felt the fact that Satan would tempt Him. He could say to His own, “But ye are they who have persevered with me in my temptations” (Luke 22: 28); that is really suffering. He credited them that they had persevered with Him.
TJH Does Hebrews 11 help as to Moses? “By faith Moses, when he had become great, refused to be called son of Pharaoh’s daughter; choosing rather to suffer affliction along with the people of God than to have the temporary pleasure of sin”, v 24-25.
RIW I wondered if that would have some link with the verse that we have read that really the people of God are identified with the suffering position, and he would choose his part with them rather than to have all that was otherwise available to him by way of worldly advantage.
RWMcC I was thinking of what Jehovah says to David, how He went about in a tent and a tabernacle, “In all my going about with all Israel” (1 Chron 17: 6), and then it speaks about the house, but I wondered if that entered into the suffering side in the sense that it comes out in the tabernacle system that is set up. How He bore with Israel and went with them through the wilderness.
RIW Yes, and was prepared to identify Himself with them in that position.
CCDR I wondered if you could say something as to Exodus. I think in your opening remarks you spoke of what God identifies Himself with, and that you mentioned the Spirit.
RIW I wondered that, and we see the pattern with the Lord. He was there before the eye of God in secret as has been said, and there was the time that He came out in public service and He could speak of Himself as being anointed “to preach to captives deliverance”. I am thinking of Luke’s gospel (chap 4: 18), but John saw the Spirit descend upon Him (John 1: 32), and it really suggests to me that there is a public side to the anointing. God would identify Himself with the Lord, and He would identify Himself with what takes the suffering position now.
CCDR It might be a mark of approval.
RIW Yes, “This is my beloved Son”, Matt 3: 17.
CCDR You used the word Spirit, that is a capital ‘S’. Do you think that is what the Spirit is striving at today, that there might be persons who are suffering that will be coming out in the same spirit, small ‘s’, and manner as the Lord who has gone before?
RIW I wondered if the thought of that is in Peter as he says, “the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you”. In other words, just as the Lord was morally superior to the sufferings, the suggestion there of the Spirit of glory is that there is that which is seen to be morally superior to the suffering of reproach. The Spirit of God would suggest power for it as well.
DAB It is a touching reference that Peter makes. I understand that he is referring to the way that the glory departed in Ezekiel, but it did not disappear all in one go: there were places where it could rest. And even in a day when the public position is so dark the Holy Spirit finds a resting place amongst those who bear the reproach of the Christ. Does that suggest that the Holy Spirit also shares God’s appreciation for its fragrance wherever it is found?
RIW That is helpful and I think these scriptures would help us to see that there is a divine estimation of these things, and it is very precious.
DAB Why would the glory linger? The public position was under judgment! Why did it not just go! Mr Taylor said it was reluctant to leave (J Taylor vol 47 p39) but there was somewhere it could abide. Peter says the Spirit of glory rests upon those that bear the reproach of the Christ.
RIW There was a complacency there, conditions in which the Holy Spirit could rest.
DJW How are we to arrive at what God is working out through the sufferings we pass through? It speak in Hebrews 12 as to “the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those exercised by it”, v 11.
RIW Help us, please.
DJW Sometimes we just try and shrug these things off, but that is not the point; the suffering is intended to have “the peaceful fruit of righteousness”.
RIW Do you think it would help us to see that God has got a definite end in view, something in mind to work out? In all these things something of the Spirit of Christ comes out which is for His pleasure.
AM The Lord Jesus did not accept His sufferings from man; he accepted them from God, and in Philippians our sufferings are referred to as a gift: it has been given to you to suffer, chap 1: 29. Do you think that part of our experience should be the acceptance of anything we have to pass through, as having been given by God for His own purpose? Is that how the result is to be worked out?
RIW Yes, and I know it sounds very easy to say, but we are not to shrink from it. We are given power for it, and we can prove the sympathy of Christ in it, and something of the Spirit of glory is seen testimonially.
PM There is a reference in 1 Peter, “put to grief by various trials”, but it says, “if needed … that the proving of your faith, much more precious than of gold … be found to praise and glory”, chap 1: 6, 7. Does that link?
RIW So that would suggest that we are not passed through anything that is unnecessary, and if we are called upon to take such a position then we know that God has something definite in mind to work out in it. These things are not just a matter of chance or circumstance.
PM I wondered if it would be right to say that we get the gain of what the Lord is passing us through in His presence, not merely the acceptance, as important as that is, but we get the gain in His presence.
RIW And as we do, I suppose that our experience would be that He Himself comes before us as the One that has sustained everything, endured all.
I thought of this in Revelation, and we often speak about it, that John was given this glorious view; it is what is brought out in display. I thought of these features of the city, its walls, its gates for example, and the foundations that had this ornamentation to them, and I wondered if it brought out what is worked out. We have the thought of the wall, and we understand what that means, a sphere of protection, that which keeps what is not of God out, and the gates, the way things are worked out is often where we are tested. We often hold things almost as abstract truth, but, speaking for myself, the working out of them practically is where I fall down, because of the unpreparedness for suffering.
RWMcC I was thinking of what is says of suffering: “afterwards yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those exercised by it”: if you take it on stoically you would miss that! You would miss being exercised by it. And I like what you say, that what has secured these precious stones is having been under pressure, like many rocks being under pressure, but there is something yielded from it and it is being brought to light; “peaceful fruit of righteousness”. But then God is able to use that for His glory.
DJW Do you think the variations these different jewels would suggest that suffering brings out personality?
RIW Yes, go on.
DJW I was thinking that all these jewels are different colours, there is no pattern to it; and I was wondering if it brings out personality in the saints?
RIW Yes. So what you are called upon is different from what I am, and it brings out something that is of God. Is that your thought?
TJH Is it your thought that all these precious stones are fitted together? It involves the whole city being glorious.
RIW Yes, it is suffering that is in moral correspondence with the Lamb - the Lamb’s wife; it is a very meek and diminutive thought.
GMcK I think what you are saying is very persuasive, because if my view of what is laid on me is to have a part in some answering note to the suffering One, that is something that we can all be attracted to.
RIW Yes, and that would help us, do you think, in relation to the present time; to weigh things and to be prepared for the character of the position? The Lamb’s wife would suggest what is maintained in care for the Lord. Much suffering has entered into the necessity for that over the history of the church.
GJR There is a character of suffering that we have not enquired into in detail, and that is the suffering that I have brought upon myself in God’s government. Is that excluded from what we are considering?
RIW I suppose for ourselves that would form quite a large part of what we have to suffer, what we have brought upon ourselves. Is that what you are thinking?
GJR That is a fact. At first glance that is devoid of glory, it is part of God’s ways in His government that we do suffer. I do not want to lower the level but can you briefly say something about that.
RIW I suppose if that is the case we recognise it as such. David was one who had to suffer under the government of God because of what he was, and he recognised it and accepted it. What can others say?
DAB-w Peter touches it near your first scripture, suffering for unrighteousness sake. We can do that and there is no glory in it, but He always has a purpose and uses it to bring us back.
RIW Peter says it is better to suffer as “well-doers than as evildoers; for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins”, chap 3: 18. It is anticipated that Christ has suffered for sins and that we should suffer not as evil doers, we should not bring it upon ourselves in that sense. Would that be the suggestion in that verse?
DAB We must get away from the idea that God’s discipline for what we have failed in is punitive, because the punishment for sin is clear; it is not suffering: it is death. If God brings suffering, then He may have some lesson and some fruit in His mind.
RIW Thank you, that helps.
GJR Paul brings the idea in in relation to the Supper (1 Cor 11); he says, “On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep”, v 30. Do you think it links the moral state with their physical condition?
DAB I was thinking that there is a view in which Paul’s sufferings would include the governmental kind that our brother is referring to, “for I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name” (Acts 9: 16); in some ways that was an answer to the suffering he himself had inflicted; but he says, “I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly”, Col 1: 24.
RIW That would help, he had a sense that he was filling up something, that which lacked, so that what should be brought out in public testimony was a spirit of suffering. Paul was prepared to fill it up so that which was proper to His body, the assembly who he had persecuted, should be seen.
DAB I do not think God is pleased unless I allow the exercise He brings to turn me to Himself. If it is simply regret and self-pity, God has no pleasure in that: these tears do not go into His bottle, Ps 56: 8.
Grimsby
8th February 2025
List of initials
D.A.Barlow, Sunbury; J.M.Bedford, Grimsby; D.A.Burr, Sidcup; R.J.Gardiner, Aberdeen; T.J.Harvey, East Finchley; A.Martin, Buckhurst Hill; P.Martin, Colchester; R.W.McClean, Grimsby; A.J.McKay, Witney; G.McKay, Manchester; R.W.McKay, Witney; R.D.Plant, Birmingham, C.C.D.Remmington, St Albans; G.J.Richards, Malvern; M.I.Webster, Buckhurst Hill; R.I.Webster, Buckhurst Hill; D.J.Willetts, Birmingham