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THE TRUTH WORKED OUT IN PERSONS

GCMcK No doubt there is more in these epistles than we could cover in the short time that is available to us but I wondered if we could compare them. I was struck by these two expressions that come into them; in Philemon, the expression “for love’s sake”, and in 2 John the expression “for the truth’s sake”. I wondered if we could consider how in working out the testimony together we might have these two matters in mind, how things might be done from the point of view of “love’s sake”, and also how in faithfulness as we proceed we might have in mind what is said as to “the truth’s sake”. The third epistle seems to continue that thought of the truth very extensively too, the truth not only abstractly but in persons and worked out in persons. There are similarities of course in the epistles. The two elderly apostles writing them are bringing their personalities spiritually to bear on those they write to, and there is no doubt much instruction in that. I thought we might begin then with what Paul says to Philemon in verses 8 and 9 of his epistle that he had boldness in Christ to enjoin Philemon what is fitting. As an apostle there was no question that he might be afraid to do that, to bring in his apostolic authority, and no doubt that would have had an effect. No doubt Philemon would have been obedient and the matters in mind in the epistle would have been outwardly adjusted, but it would seem that Paul had a deeper result in mind, a result that would relate to the inward working of the divine nature in the saints. So instead of enjoining or commanding as an apostle he resorts to exhorting personally—“for love’s sake I rather exhort, being such a one as Paul the aged, and now also prisoner of Jesus Christ”. We might see as we go over the epistles how they might bear upon us, that we might be able to do certain things “for love’s sake” and that we might be governed in our relations by the truth’s sake.

AMcK It is very interesting the way that they can speak to one another knowing that they both have the same end in view. Does Philemon’s name not connect with love in some way?

GCMcK I think it does. Clearly what you say is right. He is speaking to him in a certain confidence—he speaks of having confidence in him (Philemon 20)—and that arose from the fact they did have the same end in view. I think we should be able to speak together this afternoon and have confidence in one another, that whatever adjustment we each may need we have the same end in view, and that is the promotion of the testimony and what is precious to Christ’s heart here.

AMcK There is reference more than once I think to the idea of bowels, so it is what is inward, is it not?

GCMcK So the outward adjustment of things may be important in its own way, but the great thing is that matters should be adjusted in the bowels of the saints, the divine nature operating in the saints in such a way that there is a real and deep adjustment of matters, and the saints and the local assembly set on, despite any difficulties that may have arisen, such as arose over Onesimus’ departure.

JS Do you think there was something in Philemon that he could appeal to? In verse 5 he says, “hearing of thy love and the faith which thou hast towards the Lord Jesus, and towards all the saints”; he expected that to become operative in the acknowledgment of every good thing.

GCMcK Yes, I think that is very important. Indeed, it runs through these epistles that there are persons addressed in whom the work of God was in a certain clear and distinguished way, and therefore there can be confidence in what can be appealed to. It shows the importance of good relations between the brethren. We should be near to one another, and value and respect one another, and thus be able to address one another in the most direct and sensitive way, knowing there will be a response.

RT Have you something in mind about the personalities of these two men using their influence to effect the desired end?

GCMcK I wondered if that would be one of the helpful features that we could derive from these epistles. It is noticeable that neither adopt the position of being an apostle although they were. Paul speaks of himself as a prisoner, “such a one as Paul the aged”, and John speaks of himself as an elder. Do you not think there is a great need for that amongst us, that there might be spiritual personalities who can appeal to the brethren and bring about a deep result?

RT Yes, I think that is very true and very testing as well. It is not just settled on legal grounds or taking up points; it is a question of the influence of the truth and the atmosphere that we can bring to bear.

GCMcK Exactly, and I think it is a question of a fund of love existing among the saints that can be drawn on. Paul says, “put this to my account” as to any loss that had been incurred. I suppose he was prepared to pay the money, but then it would involve also that there was a certain fund of affection there that could be drawn on to settle the difficulty.

WMP What is the origin of the love that is referred to—it must have an origin—“for love’s sake”?

GCMcK I take it that the origin is in God, it is really the divine nature worked out in the saints and things are becoming operative. Our faith and love have to become operative. The thing is not only to be there abstractly, but to work out in relations between the brethren, and to enhance the wealth of what is in the local meeting.

WMP I wondered if you are really working things out from that level. It is not at the level of things as we .see things here. We have experienced it, that is how we have come to know love, is it not? It has been divine love that has met us. There is a basis then for appeal “for love’s sake”.

GCMcK Yes, so you can see how matters would be mended in Colosse (the assembly that is mentioned here is generally thought to be Colosse). Indeed things would be enhanced in the locality as a result of this little test arising, the return of Onesimus the runaway slave, and the damage that he may have done, or the loss Philemon had incurred in his departure.

JS It is interesting that when he addresses the letter to Philemon he also says, “and to the assembly which is in thine house”, as if he would seek to bring the assembly into the matter too.

GCMcK It is noticeable that the epistle is not simply between Paul and Philemon. He links Timotheus the brother with him to begin with, and then he alludes to Philemon, and also to the sister Apphia, and to Archippus, and then to the whole assembly; showing that there was an environment of spiritual personalities and assembly conditions in which the matter could be handled, and the affections of the saints could begin to operate in connection with it.

AMcK He uses the word partner, “If therefore thou holdest me to be a partner”. It is a very intimate idea, is it not?

GCMcK It is. You are bound up with your partner, loss or gain, are you not? Paul’s thought is that there was to be gain. He says, “If therefore thou holdest me to be a partner with thee”, and then he says, “I would have profit of thee in the Lord”. The name Onesimus means profit, so that Paul was no doubt alluding to that. Out of this difficult matter of the return of Onesimus, and whatever he might have done, there is going to be a spiritual result.

DTP Is there something in the fellow-workmen which seems to be stressed? All being together relates to love operating in the local company and generally too among the saints.

That is important at the present time, is it not, because we know the truth? We are privileged in that sense, but it is love in the working out of it which needs great skill.

GCMcK I think we need to work together. Philemon is “the beloved and our fellow-workman” and the epistle ends with a list of fellow-workmen in verse 24. So assembly relations, promoting the testimony collectively, involve that we work together, and we do it, not simply in a superficial way, but as having the same object in view and having the same affections, do you think?

DTP Yes, I think so. The simple service of the Lord in John 13 comes to mind, that service of feet-washing which is so essential with one another, and it is the operation of love, because it is to bring out an enrichment in each one of us.

GCMcK Well, we see the care the Lord used in washing their feet and wiping them with the linen cloth. You can see that in approaching this matter of Onesimus, Paul is using very great skill and care, not only that the matter should be adjusted, but that any bad feeling should be healed, that there should be a oneness in the meeting after this matter is settled.

ALMcK. It is a matter of willingness in verse 14, not just necessity, but willingness. Would that be a result of the love that you are speaking of?

GCMcK That helps greatly because an apostolic command would no doubt have brought about obedience, but willingness suggests that Paul is appealing to what is inward in Philemon. You might say he is appealing to his best feelings and instincts, so that he himself might willingly meet the matter and welcome back someone who was a very big test to him.

RG Do you think the character of love is the love of the Hebrew bondman who said, “I love my master, my wife, and my children, I will not go free” (Exodus 21: 5); he went the whole way, did he not? Is that what we are experiencing in these verses, somebody who is prepared to go the whole way and ask somebody else to go the whole way?

GCMcK Yes, Paul is prepared to count the cost, he is quite happy to have things put to his account, prepared to bear in that way. It shows the reality of the love and committal that is involved in it. Then of course the bondman’s love in the various directions would come in in that, not only love for God, but for the saints and for the assembly. All that seems bound up in this epistle.

AMcK When the Lord took up the disciples initially some of them were fishermen, so there was a working together even before they came under the Lord’s rule.

GCMcK Yes, and they would have to learn to work together later. In Matthew the list of the apostles is given in twos, not as individuals, so there is the idea that we have to learn to work with one another. I think it is very important for there are only a few of us, and we need to work together to get the gain of each one. In Ecclesiastes it says, “Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour” (Ecclesiastes 4: 9). That is what Paul is after here, a good reward for his labour.

JAG I was just wondering if it was like putting the gold on the boards of the tabernacle. This is a new board and he is going to fit in properly, is he not?

GCMcK Yes, he is to fit in in a certain dignity. He would not appear afterwards as a kind of additional board that would look out of place, but he would merge in. He is described elsewhere as “one of you” (Colossians 4: 9), so that he would merge in with the saints in the operation of what went on in the assembly.

JAG I am quite interested in Paul saying ‘my bowels’. How intimately he was bound up with Paul, and then it says, “not any longer as a bondman, but above a bondman, a beloved brother”. Christ is the object of all these persons.

GCMcK It is striking that Onesimus should be described as Paul’s bowels. I suppose that refers to the fact that he had been begotten by Paul in his bonds, and Paul’s affections were deeply involved with Onesimus as he wrote this epistle, anxious for the best for him, for full restoration and for a welcome for him in Colosse when he returned to his master.

TDB Would you say something about the working of an exhortation, rather than the thought of a command? You referred to personality. He addresses himself to them as “Paul the aged”.

GCMcK There is such a thing as appealing to a brother on the basis of love, not immediately bringing in the letter of the law and the demand and the necessity of the thing, but appealing to him as to the rightness of something, appealing to him on the basis of his love for the truth and the links that you have together. Do you think that sometimes that can be more effective?

TDB I just thought it was an affecting reference, “Paul the aged”, so that you learn to value the aged brethren amongst us, what they may say and the way they conduct themselves.

GCMcK You are thankful for everyone who can bring in some spiritual personality and we all have some, I suppose. It is fine if brethren can use their spiritual influence. A great deal in Christianity is not only command—command does have its place—but a great deal in Christianity is influence. We sang to the Lord as our living Head, which involves His influence, and that influence can come in amongst us. That would apply also in the way that brothers are active amongst us to bring a spiritual influence to bear on any matter.

JS A great part of that influence would be in suffering, the way Paul was treating this. He speaks first of all of being “prisoner of Christ Jesus” and then later “prisoner of Jesus Christ”. It was really in these sufferings that Onesimus had been begotten in the first place, and he is bringing this to bear now.

GCMcK Yes, that is very helpful. He was suffering for the testimony in a pre-eminent way. In fact when he says “Paul the aged” it is generally thought that he was not actually very old, but the sufferings and labour that he had undertaken had aged him so that he could thus describe himself. Thus the concentration of experience, not simply of years that had passed, but the concentration of labour and suffering over the years were brought to bear on this matter.

JS Do you think he is bringing this to bear on Philemon, so that he might be affected by this character of things? It really links back to Christ Himself.

GCMcK Yes, that is right. John 13 has been referred to and the whole spirit that Paul is displaying is really the Spirit of Christ. Then the spirit that Philemon is intended to display is that same Spirit. How beautiful that that should be brought about in a difficult matter!

DD According to Ephesians 4 the testimony is to proceed according to a certain standard, “according as the truth is in Jesus” (Ephesians 4: 21).

GCMcK Yes, very good. Give us the whole verse please.

DD “But ye have not thus learnt the Christ, if ye have heard him and been instructed in him according as the truth is in Jesus”. We are called to have part in the testimony but it is according to a certain standard. Would that be right?

GCMcK It is indeed. So that section brings out the kind of man that is to appear in the testimony because the truth as in Jesus is followed by the thought of the new man “which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4: 24). So that is the character of things down here. It is really the features of Christ.

DD That is what I thought, “according as the truth is in Jesus” is a characteristic thought.

GCMcK Yes, that is right and I think that is what you can see being worked out in the detail of this epistle; it is that kind of man.

AMcK He says, “whom I was desirous of keeping with myself, that for thee he might minister to me in the bonds of the glad tidings”.

GCMcK Paul would have liked to have kept him, his bowels, his child, and one so serviceable, but then he does not exert any right that he may have had, but he sends him back to where he came from, so that things might be adjusted there. I think that is very beautiful. So he is to be no longer a bondman. Paul would expect him to be liberated; he would not be a slave any more. Mr. Darby seems to indicate something of that.

JS There would be justification for that, “but above a bondman, a beloved brother”. His thought of him was to be elevated to that extent, so he would treat him in that way, as a “beloved brother”. Do you think one of the things that underlies this matter of love is respect for one another?

GCMcK Well, there can hardly be love without respect for one another. You cannot imagine that lack of respect could co-exist with any real love for a person. It is noticeable in the way that the writers of these epistles speak to the brethren; they are imbued with respect for them, even if they have to bring in any adjustment or adjuration.

JS I thought that Paul is seeking to elevate the thought of this brother, and the brethren in that place. This thought of “not any longer as a bondman, but above a bondman, a beloved brother”, makes you think of what value he is to Christ, as well as to the brethren.

GCMcK Yes, quite so. You would want to enhance the spiritual status of everyone, regard them in the highest possible level, like the boards of the tabernacle, covered with gold. The whole matter is to be enhanced, to see the brethren in the most spiritual possible light, and help them to come up to that too.

AMcK So that Paul knew his men, he knew the master as well as knowing the slave. I think the idea is mutual confidence and respect. This man who had run away had possibly been a soldier when he was guarding Paul. Apparently he was converted in Rome.

GCMcK Yes, in the prison in Rome he was in contact with Paul. So Paul speaks as knowing these persons and having confidence in them. It shows it is important to seek to get close to one another and to get to know one another.

WMP I was thinking of the incident when Lazarus comes out of the tomb and the Lord says to them, “Loose him and let him go”, John 11: 44. Are you thinking of something along these lines as to how we might serve one another in view of liberty?

GCMcK That is helpful. In John’s gospel, as we often say, the Lord does things Himself, and the disciples are given very little to do, but when it comes to that point the local brethren are given something to do. They are to loose him and let him go, to loose the bonds and handkerchief, and see the brother’s face. Paul was not wanting Onesimus to go back and be afraid to show face. He is wanting the saints to be able to look at that face and say, That is a beloved brother.

JAG It is all very mutual. He says, “I have wished to do nothing without thy mind”. Well no doubt Paul had the Lord’s mind about the whole thing, but he wanted to consult with Philemon and maintain their own relations. Then he says, “But withal prepare me also a lodging”. That is “for love’s sake”.

GCMcK Yes it is all “for love’s sake”. It shows the confidence he had in putting so much on Philemon as to receiving Onesimus, and he now makes a further request, “prepare me also a lodging”. It is a little test, Am I still in your affections just as I was before?

JAG There is no doubt that this had all been gone over in Philemon’s household with the sister Apphia and so forth. They would know Onesimus’ past history, I have no doubt that that got an airing.

GCMcK Well, the whole thing is to be elevated “for love’s sake”. There is going to be love operating in this meeting. I suppose they would love one another more after this was all settled than ever before.

JS There is an interesting comment that he makes, “I say not to thee that thou owest even thine own self also to me”. Do you think that he would just remind Philemon of the way that he was indebted to him in this regard?

GCMcK Yes, I suppose Philemon would be one of Paul’s converts; that is what he would be alluding to; so that we do not forget what we owe to the brethren. It is another thing that enhances the brethren in our view when we can look on them and trace our debts, and we can say how much I owe to that brother, how much have learned from him. You can see how a fund of love is built up, provoking one another to love and good works (see Hebrews 10: 24). There is a certain fund of love built up in the good that we do to one another.

AMcK I think the letter would be interesting that Onesimus took back to Philemon. He would see the truth of him being converted and he would say, That is not my runaway slave.

GCMcK Yes, he would come back different, I am sure.

RG The assembly in his house would have something particular in relation to the recovery of Onesimus. Philemon was obviously a person who was worthy of having the assembly in his house; that is one thing, that is a certain level of things; but here now is Onesimus, a recovered brother you might say, and he is going to have a place in the assembly in his house; brotherly love has to abide in these conditions, do you think?

GCMcK There is a triumph in it all when you see the brethren helping one another because Paul is addressing not only Philemon but also Archippus and Apphia and the assembly, everybody there. So you see there is an influence being brought to bear on all present to help Philemon in an atmosphere where this matter can be settled. In John’s second and third epistles there are certain parallels, and one of them is the way that the apostle uses his affectionate influence on the saints. He also alludes to love. We have the commandment that we should love one another, and he begins by speaking about loving in truth; so you can see that the matter of love is governed by the truth and the love of the truth.

Then also “all who have known the truth, for the truth’s sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity”. So you can see how the thought of the truth governs these two epistles in the face of the declension that was coming in and error that was extant. It is interesting that the truth “abides in us and shall be with us”. It is not simply the truth objectively but it is in some subjective sense, “abides in us and shall be with us”.

AMcK It is addressed to “the elect lady and her children”. Would that be a reference to the assembly or would it be to a sister?

GCMcK I took it to be to a sister because there is the advice not to receive into the house anyone that comes not bringing “this doctrine”.

RG I was thinking of your reference to the “truth’s sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity”, and I was just wondering if it has an allusion to the Spirit.

GCMcK Similar things are said of the Spirit in John 14: 17.

RG Yes, and it goes on to eternity. You might think that the truth will finish at the end of time, but the Spirit does not finish at the end of time. The application of the truth in one sense finishes at the end of time, but the Spirit of truth goes through and will be with us for all eternity.

GCMcK What a level of things to have in our souls! The truth may be stressed in these epistles from the point of view of a guard against the error that existed, but then the truth also has a positive sense, that is what is in our souls subjectively by the Spirit, and that goes into eternity and is not simply a reaction or a guard against error.

JS This is the inward side of things that you are calling attention to, is it not?

GCMcK I wondered that, because the truth is alluded to so much in an active sense. He says, “whom I love in truth” in verse 1, the truth is in us and with us in verse 2, and “walking in truth” in verse 4. Then there is the thought of “holding fast the truth” in the third epistle. Demetrius has witness borne to him by the truth. Thus it is not simply an abstract or objective thing, but the truth is really embraced in the souls of the saints.

RT That would be an important reference to the Father, do you think? It says, “from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love”. There is an affectionate side and a relationship side too to the holding the truth, is there?

GCMcK Very good, “in truth and love”. So these things are put together. Philemon stresses love and no doubt the truth is not surrendered there either, but here it is “truth and love”, as you say, coming from divine Persons.

RT The truth for us is not something written on stone. It is not something that is laid down like that, but it is learned in our relationships primarily with divine Persons, is it?

GCMcK I think that helps greatly. So that the truth is formed in us inwardly, and really involves the formation of the divine nature and that we learn the love of God; we become formed in that love. That is what is in mind.

JS Do you think this thought of “walking in truth” was something he found taking place here? Is it really an expression of what there is inwardly?

GCMcK I think that is right. I do not think it means exactly walking according to certain rules or commandments, however true that might have been, but it is walking in truth as if the person’s whole conduct is imbued by what is in their soul as to the truth.

RT It would, allude to sonship, would you think?

GCMcK Would you think walk as dignified according to this standard would be fitting for a son?

RT I thought it was the enjoyment of sonship that enables us to be in the expression of the truth, and I doubt if I can hold the truth rightly without enjoying sonship.

GCMcK I think that would be true. It is not a question of what is just servile, or anything that is beneath that level; the level of sonship is to be held by us.

GB Paul writes to Timothy as to keeping the entrusted deposit. Do you think that would relate to the truth as learned through experience, the implanted word?

GCMcK Yes, it is clear that Timothy not only had the truth committed to him in the presence of witnesses, but he was acquainted with Paul himself and his conduct, his manner of life, his purpose, his love, and so on. It is showing therefore that what is conveyed by a brother is not simply teaching or the terms of the truth, but it is more than that; you might say it is the substance of the truth that is to be imparted. How important that is that things are imparted amongst us. To the Thessalonians Paul says he imparted his own life also, he did not hold anything back.

TDB So the pronoun “I” in the second epistle is emphatic at the beginning. I was thinking of what you said earlier about the personality, “whom I love in truth, and not I only”, he links others with him; the substantial side that there was in John. If any disciple spoke to us about love it was himself.

GCMcK Quite so. Think of him speaking of himself as an elder, speaking about his children. Think of the fatherly side that existed in that beloved apostle, and as error was coming in how he was delighting in those walking in truth and all that was positive among the saints.

RT Later in verse 9 he speaks of abiding in the doctrine and “he has both the Father and the Son”. He brings out the living side of the relationship that comes into the holding of the truth, do you think?

GCMcK I think that helps very much. You can see, therefore, that if the deceivers are listened to, how much is lost. The whole essence of Christianity is lost.

RT The Galatians were trying to work at the legal side of things. That is where Paul brings in the idea of sonship, being in the relationship and joy of the Father’s love, so that we can hold the truth and walk in it.

GCMcK I am sure that is right. What a thought to have both the Father and the Son; how much is condensed into that phrase as to the knowledge of God and of relationships between divine Persons!

WMP I was thinking of what the disciples said to the Lord at the end of John 6, “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God”, what had entered into their own experience. I was thinking of what you said about the line of impartation; they were conscious that something had been imparted to them in their histories.

GCMcK It is a good thing to study the truth and the Scriptures and the ministry; I do not know that it is done enough. It is good to seek to lay hold in our minds of the terms of the truth, but there is something more than that. There is the actual essence of the truth, you might say. There is something that is beyond the words; it is more than the words, the actual substance of the truth, and I think it should be our exercise to lay hold of that. John speaks of “the Father and the Son”. Think of the relationships between divine Persons and what through grace we can enter into.

JS Paul uses the expression “holding the truth in love” (Ephesians 4: 15), and really we cannot hold it rightly any other way, can we?

GCMcK We might be holding certain terms but the truth is not simply terms. It is a question of what is formed in the souls of the saints, the subjective; it is the truth that “abides in us and shall be with us to eternity”. Then the whole thing is so carefully guarded. In verse 5 there is a new commandment, “not as writing to thee a new commandment, but that which we have had from the beginning, that we should love one another”. It is something that bears repeating. Then it says, “And this is love, that we should walk according to his commandments”, just in case anyone would think that loving one another meant that you could disregard the commandments; but love does not disregard the commandments. It is necessary for the commandments to be respected because there are all these deceivers going out and we need to be protected.

GB Paul’s commandments are not grievous, are they? I am impressed with the frequency with which Jesus goes over the “new commandment I give to you”, John 13: 34. That is what is in Jesus, is it not?

GCMcK Things are not grievous if it is the joy of your heart to do them. It is according to the divine nature to do these things. There is the rule of new creation that is alluded to in Galatians, that you do things, not because there is a legal requirement but because of new creation; that is because of the work of God in you. The apostle speaks in both these epistles of not wanting to write but to speak mouth to mouth. It is important that there should be direct links between us that are affectionate so that matters can be imparted, and we can enjoy things together.

DTP Is not the importance of holding what is from the beginning always a challenge to us? Paul had to speak and say the same things but it was not grievous to him. There needs to be a going over of the truth and the working out of it in local assemblies with the whole in view, does there not?

GCMcK Yes, I think it is a continuous thing, the working out of the truth amongst us.

RT So there is very much a family side of things in these two epistles. In a family we are not at the same stage or the same state, but in the family there is the respect for the truth and there is the circulation of it and holding it, is there?

GCMcK I think that is what there is, and there is a concern to encourage one another on that line. So when Gaius is addressed, even his health is mentioned, that “thou shouldest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers”. John would wish the best for the brethren as long as their soul is prospering. You can see the family side there, you would be caring for everything about the brethren.

JS He says, “whom I love in truth”. Such an one would appreciate what you have been saying about “for love’s sake” and “for the truth’s sake”. There was a bond there; it would fit easily.

GCMcK It would be quite difficult to find a disagreement there because their love was in the truth. There was not anything of the flesh or nature simply but it was love in the truth, it was governed by that, and had its roots in that.

AMcK The great idea is that you view the saints as divine property.

GCMcK So you would want to do your best for them?

AMcK Yes, so he goes on in 3 John verse 6 “(who have witnessed of thy love before the assembly,) in setting forward whom on their journey worthily of God, thou wilt do well”.

GCMcK Showing how fully Gaius was committed to promoting the testimony. These persons going forth were strangers indeed, but they went forth for the name and Gaius was supporting that; supporting everything that was of God, and John commends that.

JAG We want to be fellow-workers with the truth.

GCMcK With the truth; we can really do nothing against it from one point of view but the happy thing is to be working with it.

JAG The whole thing has to be set up in “Jesus Christ come in flesh”, 1 John 4: 2.

GCMcK Quite so, that is the order of man, that kind of man. The deceiver and the antichrist deny that. Men will not have that, they want their order of man, but this is the order of man that the Christian holds in his affections.

RG Pilate said, “What is truth?” (John 18: 38), and there was the exemplification of truth in a Man, not only in Himself but in His relationship with His Father.

GCMcK The Lord in one place describes Himself as “a man who has spoken the truth to you”, John 8: 40. How, simple and direct but how profound; the truth was really expressed in Him.

RT Diotrephes was interrupting that, was he not?

GCMcK Yes, he would not have that, he did not want these persons to be received and given any kind of place. I suppose the key to his behaviour was he loved to have the first place. Would that seem to be it?

RT Yes, I was thinking of what has been referred to about Jesus. That is the test, and that is where the truth is learned, in our links with Him. Here was someone who had not learned that, or had at least forgotten it or was not acting on it.

GCMcK So you might think if someone wants to have the first place that does not seem too serious a matter, though obviously a poor thing; but it was leading him to misbehave and it was hindering the testimony.

RT He “receives us not”, he was interrupting the flow of love and thus interrupting the expression of the truth.

GCMcK Yes. Yet it is noticeable that Gaius does not seem to have been hindered; he was carrying on. Whatever Diotrephes said, Gaius was active. Also it is noticeable that immediately after the reference to Diotrephes you get Demetrius. You get those who are going on, whatever is happening, never deviating.

RT You get the relationship with this Man, Jesus Christ. I think it has been referred to as the centre of the whole thing. It is this order of man that is to be displayed in the local assembly.

GCMcK Quite so, and not simply in advantageous circumstances. In Philippians it is the “supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1: 19), so there is the supply to maintain the Spirit of that Man, even down here in the midst of opposition.

JS This evidently occasioned joy to John. He says, “For I rejoiced exceedingly when the brethren came and bore testimony to thy holding fast the truth, even as thou walkest in truth. I have no greater joy than these things that I hear of my children walking in the truth”. It was a real joy to him; he treats them as his children. It was a joy to him to have this testimony brought of persons walking in the truth.

GCMcK Very good. It is one of the features of love in 1 Corinthians 13 that it rejoices with the truth. John in writing this third epistle does not say very much about Diotrephes. He goes over the matter, and how he might come, and so on, but he emphasises those who are going on; he rejoices in those who are going on with the truth and demonstrating it. But what do you make of that expression in verse 3, “and bore testimony to thy holding fast the truth”? The footnote says it could be literally, bear testimony ‘to thy truth’. It is a very striking phrase, a brother’s truth.

JS What do you have in mind?

GCMcK Well, no doubt the words that are inserted, ‘holding fast’, would give the English meaning but the original does not have that. The original ties up the truth very intimately with Gaius himself, “thy truth”. It is noticeable with Demetrius too that there seems to be a testimony to the truth in him.

JS Do you think it might involve holding fast the truth in the sense of what is truthful as well as truth in the sense of the faith?

GCMcK Yes, I am sure that is so. We have referred to Ephesians 4 to the new man, how he is created in truthful righteousness and holiness, for the leading feature of the old man is that he does not tell the truth.

GB Would you say something for us about the end of verse 12, “and thou knowest that our witness is true”? I was just thinking of the character of John’s writing and the knowledge persons had, that the brethren would have, as to John himself.

GCMcK Yes, writing is an important matter, and not only the witness but the witnesses.

There are persons whose witness you can trust. It is amazing how much is said amongst us and it is not really true; if you get back to the source you find that it has been misrepresented or distorted. The importance of true witness is very great and practical. How wonderful the apostle’s witness would be, the testimony of the apostle.

RG It is an extension of how he finishes his gospel. He says, “This is the disciple who bears witness concerning these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his witness is true”, John 21: 24. Everything that John spoke of the Lord in his gospel, the witness was true. We should lay hold of that, should we not? Then it would come out in the epistle in our walk in difficult days, do you think?

GCMcK Yes, I think it would. John stresses the truthfulness of witness, even as to the blood coming from the side of the Lord. He says, “he who saw it bears witness, and his witness is true” (John 19: 35); showing that in a day of declension and attack on the truth, it is important that things are established in the souls of the saints and it is so on the basis of witness. That is the way it is established.

WMP Stephen comes on to the scene as a matter of choice. “Look out ... from among yourselves”, Acts 6: 3. He is spoken of as “a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit”, and then as we know at the end of Acts 7 there are certain features coming out in him, things reflected in him. I was thinking of what we have been speaking about as “thy truth”, what might be demonstrated in persons about whom you could say that.

GCMcK You just wonder therefore how far you represent the truth yourself. I do not think it would be too much to say that that is what is expected of saints, that as having imbibed the truth and learned the truth as it is in Jesus, they themselves should represent it.

Demetrius seems to be like that. He has witness borne to him by all, which is striking, but then “by the truth itself” which is harder to understand, how Demetrius could have witness borne to him “by the truth itself”.

JS There was a general witness, a general testimony to Demetrius as to the kind of man he was, witness borne to him by all, and then by the truth itself. You might say you could measure him up against the truth, any feature of the truth, and Demetrius would come out as being in keeping with it.

GCMcK I think that is a helpful way to approach it; there was no discrepancy there but rather what was of the truth was confirmed in him in the way he lived and spoke and acted.

RT It would be like what the Lord said to Philadelphia, “thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name”, Revelation 3: 8. There is some practical expression of the truth being exemplified through persons in communion with Christ.

GCMcK I think that is helpful too because the Lord addresses Himself to Philadelphia as “the holy, the true”. It seems to me that the way He addresses Philadelphia, and what He says to Philadelphia, seems to show that they are in accord with Him in their measure, are they not?

RT He says, “thou hast kept the word of my patience”. That is tested by the truth, is it not? There is something there that is able for the testing, and what comes out is an expression of the truth.

GCMcK Quite so; it might be somewhat in smallness; and there is a negative side, “hast not denied my name” but how wonderful that negative is. Every challenge against that Name had been resisted by Philadelphia.

RT Does it all bring us round to the true appreciation of the Lord’s supper? What proceeds on that occasion is having some practical effect in us as demonstrated in our wilderness experiences.

GCMcK Why do you bring in the Supper?

RT I think that is very much connected with “thou hast kept the word of my patience” and “thou hast kept my word”. I think the Lord’s word is centred very much upon the Supper. The way that the truth of the Supper has come down to us in the recovery is something that is to be regulating; it is not just a formal meeting but there is something that is to regulate us in the expression of the truth, do you think?

GCMcK I think that is right. So the exercises preceding the partaking of the Supper would bring us into accord with the truth; exercises as to fellowship, for example, that necessarily precede the Supper. We should break bread as ourselves being in accord with the emblems. We should be in keeping with these emblems; what a thought that is, what is expressed in them. It is the fellowship of the Lord’s death.

RT “Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body”, 1 Corinthians 10: 17. We are linked up with the loaf in some way; there is some expression of that same committal, that same love and devotion, to be expressed in the saints as they gather for that occasion.

GCMcK The other side is that partaking of the emblems is to strengthen us in these features, in the doing of the will of God and in being pleasing here, and in the sacrificial side. Surely it is as feeding on such food that we are strengthened for the testimony. Even as coming to the Supper, as, looking on the emblems, we should be conscious that we have judged ourselves so that we are not out of keeping with them.

RG The persons who devote themselves to the Lord in remembering Him at the Supper are persons who have partaken of the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth of the passover before they came there, do you think?

GCMcK I think they are persons who are walking in the truth, and loving in truth. You might say we love all the brethren and we do, we hold abstractly every believer in our hearts in affection; but we cannot break bread with them because we love “in truth”, and the full expression of our love and fellowship therefore has to be restricted. The love is there but it is “love in truth”; it is very important I think that that is so.

JAG The expression “worthily of God” is very commendable; “setting forward whom on their journey worthily of God, thou wilt do well”, and then “He that does good is of God. He that does evil has not seen God”, so God has to be in evidence.

GCMcK Very good, what is of God. We have spoken of Jesus Christ coming in flesh, that kind of Man; but here the moral features of God Himself have to be displayed by the saints.

JS Why do you think he closes this epistle using this word “friends”?

GCMcK “The friends greet thee. Greet the friends by name”. I think it shows a certain closeness in our relations together. While there is respect there is a certain familiarity and nearness expressed in it. What do you say, please?

JS Do you think a friend is one in whom you can have confidence, one in whom you can confide? What leads to this in a true sense is the place that love of the truth and the truth have with us.

GCMcK You really cannot have proper fellowship without confidence. It is an underlying basis for fellowship that we have confidence in one another, that we are being faithful to the truth; and attribute it to one another too, and encourage one another in it. Really confidence is a very important matter in our relations together.

RG Are these friends those that the Lord says, “I call you no longer bondmen, for the bondman does not know what his master is doing, but I have called you friends”, John 15: 15? The friends know His mind and heart, do you think? We are all walking in accordance with that.

GCMcK That is right; the Lord dignified and elevated them in that way, and therefore we have to view the saints in the same way. Well, I trust we might be drawn together in a deep way through these things that we have been speaking about.

Reading at Brechin
7 December 2002

KEY TO INITIALS

G. Bailey

R. Gardiner

W. Patterson

T. D. Beveridge

G. C. McKay

D. T. Pye

D. Duthie

A. McKay

J. Strachan

J. A. Gardiner

A. L. McKay

R. Taylor

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