THE FALL AND RISING UP (1)
A.C.C. "This child is set for the fall and rising up of many in Israel". It is not in mind to concentrate on the fall - that is painful enough - but rather on the rising up. It may be necessary to speak about the fall, but I wondered if in this first reading we should get some sense and feeling as to whence the fall was. That was the word in Revelation 2: 5: "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen" - not the point to which the church fell but the point from whence it had fallen. It was with that in mind that I had this section read. I think Simeon and Anna would in a way prefigure what was set up in perfection under Paul's ministry. There is a certain idea of completeness in the picture with the man and the woman in a locality in Jerusalem. You could not improve on that - a man in Jerusalem - neither could you improve upon what was set up under the Pauline ministry. That does not exist publicly now - that is true enough - but the light of it remains; and it is from that that publicly the fall has taken place. So it is right to get some idea as to how the church publicly was set up under this ministry.
I think Simeon would represent first of all the anointed vessel in a place, a vessel for the Spirit, and then too some idea of the sanctuary with the ark enclosed, the service of God proceeding. All that belongs to the spiritual side: Anna represents more the historical side. But first of all the spiritual side is seen in Simeon. That is an indication of what we might look into.
E.P. It sounds as though it could be very helpful to us. As to the fall it is fall and rising, is it not?
A.C.C. Yes. The fall comes soon enough. We need to get some idea of what was accomplished through the activities of the Spirit and the service of Paul, and then the rising up again. Though the fall has taken place, the rising up again, as we hope to see later, corresponds, not in public glory certainly, but in moral quality with all that was set up in the beginning. But let us inquire into this matter of what has been set up, to see the great place that the Spirit has in this system.
B.D.F. Is there something important in "that thou hast left thy first love", Rev 2: 4? Do we need to get back to first love in view of arriving at this point?
A.C.C. Yes, I think that is the truth; there is sufficient available in the Spirit to bring us back to something which corresponds in moral quality with the original.
J.N.G. So what is said here - "Lo this child" shows that everything is focussed in Jesus; the prophetic utterance at this point was connected with "this child". As you mentioned in prayer, the testimony is the testimony of Jesus; that is the form that things have taken in these last days.
A.C.C. Certainly: after all, He is the great subject, and everything attached to Him, as you well know, is bound to go through. Whatever may come in in the interim by way of breakdown, whether it be personal or in the church, things set in relation to Christ are bound to go through. That is the great encouragement and safeguard for all of us, to have the sense that we are vitally attached to Christ. Whatever else might be in the profession, the thing is that we are linked with Christ.
A.V.W. Simeon was stimulated as he took Jesus into his arms. Would he have a sight of the perfection of things from God's side which was now coming in in our blessed Lord?
A.C.C. You are taking us on pretty fast!
A.V.W. I was carrying what you said as to the fall, but the view of what God has from His side helps us to see things properly and to get back in our minds to recovery.
A.C.C. I think it is beautiful; it is very stabilising to get hold of something that has been established. You may say, but it is broken down. But wait a minute, do not go too fast. First of all get a sight of what has been established and, too, realise that there is sufficient to give us some taste of that again. That is what we set ourselves for. But we want to get a clear view of what has been set up. Here is a man in Jerusalem, and I say you could not improve on that, with all the light of the purpose of God and the thoughts of God set up there. He is a vessel for the Spirit. What a view comes before you, not only the church period, but there he is with the Babe in his arms, and he is blessing God and blessing the people. It is a picture of the world to come, the Melchisedec priesthood in function, blessing up and blessing down. When we get a view of the church proper, everything, including the world to come, must come within our range of view. There is this Child: bring in Christ and you bring in everything, the whole new world.
J.N.G. Is Luke writing under the influence of Paul's ministry?
A.C.C. Certainly. "The world to come of which we speak" (Heb 2: 5): who said that? Paul - at least the writer of the Hebrews, and we all believe it was Paul. Simeon is a fine man, "the Holy Spirit was upon him"; he represents the anointed vessel.
E.P. It is very attractive; it says "it was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's Christ". And they "brought in the child Jesus". The simplicity of it! The attractiveness of Christ!
A.C.C. It is! And what is proceeding? It is a pouring out of what God has down here: that is the anointed vessel. Think of what He had in Jesus here in this gospel! In chapter 4 He was the true anointed vessel - "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me" (v 18). But then the Spirit has come in to perpetuate Christ here; and whatever may be the obscurity, whatever may be the breakdown, the anointed vessel is here.
J.St. So we are being prepared for the world to come, but God is preparing something here that is going to fill the world to come; the greatest thing that God has ever had is being prepared now.
A.C.C. We are inclined to have a very narrow view of things, but if we get a sight of what the assembly is, what has been set up under Paul, we cannot have a restricted view. There may be limitations, fewness of numbers, and pressure, but if we get a view of things as set up by the Spirit in this dispensation in its pristine glory we are bound to have an extended view.
L.C.P. We see in Jesus here, a Babe – outward weakness - yet, as you say, what is there under the eye of a man in Jerusalem!
A.C.C. There is bound to be what will receive Him when He comes in. It must be so: God will see to that. Well, what is there today in the way of what belongs to the anointed vessel that is competent, capable of receiving Christ? Do you not think He comes? And when He comes in what is there that would in some sense be true of what belongs to the original?
A.M.D. The whole of heaven was in this matter. Earlier it says "the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they feared with great fear" (v 9), and then "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men" (v 14). It looked on to the good pleasure that would be in men.
A.C.C. That is true and it is to be continued. If you think of the anointed vessel, you belong to that, I belong to it. In the realm of the profession, in Christendom, today there is much crudeness, an unrefined way of thinking and speaking, and how much of the flesh there is, and here is a wonderful situation where we have part in the anointed vessel, God's possession here, baptised by one Spirit into one body, "so also is the Christ" (1 Cor 12: 12); we belong to that. What refinement there should be with us then when we think of the way in which we have been taken up and anointed by the Spirit!
B.D.F. Do you think that there is a moral correspondence in Simeon? "This man was just and pious, awaiting the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him" - as though the Spirit would be with that kind of man in view of promoting Christ.
A.C.C. That is very good indeed; I am glad you refer to "just and pious", because if there is to be any degree of sensitive feeling as to the anointed vessel (and we do not claim anything, but we belong to it) there must be the moral foundation for it, and "just and pious" is that. There is what is there subjectively wrought by the Spirit in view of the anointing; you cannot dissociate the anointed from that. You say, a man has gift, that is everything. It is not everything, there must be the moral basis for the gift to operate.
J.C.F. Is the way into the assembly by way of a little child?
A.C.C. That is true but that is our side of it we accept that position - converted and become as little children. But what we are saying is important and we all want to be clear about it, that for the anointing to be in function there has to be the moral state. At one time we made everything of sovereignty, everything of gift, and missed our way, and that is sti11 being done. The great thing is that there should be a moral basis for the anointing.
L.H.B. I suppose this godly man would have seen a good number of children come in like this, but here is One who has come in in a special way and it thrills the hearts of both that man and that woman - the presence of Christ as brought in. There must have been some moral feature in Him as a little child, do you think?
A.C.C. At any rate the Spirit was there, and Simeon was available to the Spirit for this great moment, as you say this unique moment, when Christ is brought in. It shows that where we are just and pious, in the simplicity of that, we are available to the Spirit as belonging to the anointed vessel and we immediately detect the presence of Christ.
L.H.B. Would you say that, as we see moral glories in Christ, they are to be reflected in us, and that that is the moral basis in us?
A.C.C. I think that here it is a question of what the Spirit is doing, and to emphasise to us the importance of the Spirit's service, and directing to Christ. As set up under Paul's ministry the great gain of that is brought out. I think that the moral side is needed, that for us it forms a basis, but the emphasis, I believe, is on the activities of the Spirit. First of all we belong to an anointed vessel; we accept that. Think of what that does to you, the feeling of that! Then, too, Simeon has the word divinely given to him by the Spirit. Now he represents the oracle where the mind of God is coming out. These things belong to us; there is the oracle, he has the immediate mind of God, and then, too, He comes by the Spirit - these three things. The whole of his activities, every function, goes on in the power of the Spirit. I believe all that is brought up to emphasise to us the importance of the Spirit's service; and all that came into evidence under Paul's ministry.
T.O'C. Simeon came into the temple by the Spirit. How important that is! How do we attend a meeting? Do we come in the Spirit? If so, then we would enjoy what the Spirit brings before us.
A.C.C. Certainly, most important. It is remarkable that a man who does not belong to our dispensation is taken up to set out what has been set up, as far as l can see, under the great ministry of Paul who had a heavenly ministry.
A.M.D. It says that "God has made him ... both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2: 36) and "has poured out this which ye beyond and hear" (v 33). It is a matter of what is demonstrated before our eyes, what is shed forth.
A.C.C. Yes, that took place at Pentecost, and from the beginning the anointed vessel was there; when the Spirit came in the anointed vessel was there. Of course it takes Paul's ministry to bring out the light and the truth of it.
A.V.W. You are stressing that these moral qualifications must be present if the thing is to function, that is that the Spirit is free to bring this greatness in in any locality.
A.C.C. These are the things we lack and you cannot hope to be spiritual if you are not pious. These are simple facts, and our forefathers, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, before we were in the testimony, were far more pious than we are.
J.St. Coming in by the Spirit would imply that I have been walking in the Spirit . That is Paul too, of course; "Walk in the Spirit", Gal 5: 16. But as we are doing that practically we would come to the meeting and be able to come into things.
A.C.C. Yes. It seems very wonderful to me that we have the anointed vessel, and the oracle in function, so that we do not need to be in the dark about anything, we have the solution to everything in the Spirit available to us to say something into our ears. What more wonderful system could you have than this. We are set up in the Spirit here; Simeon "came in the Spirit".
J.N.G. It is a wonderful thing that the anointed vessel is still here in the face of a world that is becoming increasingly independent of God; the Spirit of God is here.
A.C.C. That is true, although it has become obscured because of the breakdown.
J.N.G. And it is to be seen even in one person.
A.C.C. Very good; that is right. It seems to me that Simeon represents also another great truth the new man in Ephesians (see chap 4: 24), has no antecedents, he has no tribal connection, his age is not given; we assume that he was an old man, but I think he is so absorbed with Christ that, even though he were a young man, he would have wished to go. He represents the new man in Ephesians, entirely new, whereas the woman, I think, represents the new man as in Colossians 3: 10 - young and fresh over 100 years old, so buoyant and fresh. That is the new man in Colossians, it never grows old, that is the idea. She has antecedents, she represents the historical side, the moral side.
B.D.F. Would you say more about being pious.
A.C.C. I think it is good that we should be detained on that because there is so much that passes muster nowadays which is not piety at all, only empty profession. Take the epistles to Timothy and Titus; there are no other epistles that stress piety so much. Now why is that? Because you have to do with the house of God. "Great is the mystery of piety" (1 Tim 3: 16); that is connected with Christ again.
G.R.W. Is that why it is Holy Spirit here? In the scene in which we are would the emphasis be on that? Not that we are dwelling on that side, but it comes in; "Be careful in his presence" (Exod 23: 21) is the word.
A.C.C. Yes, I am quite sure we need an increasing sense of that, that He is the Holy Spirit. A sense of that would deepen with us a need for piety, that there might be more scope for Him.
A.V.W. You spoke of the contrast between previous generations and our own. Do you think that, in view of the conditions about us, we should be straining ourselves all the more not to be on a casual line of things as exists in the world. Without realising it we have dropped tremendously from the level that our grandparents maintained.
A.C.C. I think we should stand out in piety, not to draw attention to ourselves - we can do that without being pious - but we should not be average, we should be more than average. You will notice at the end of Mark, which brings up the matter of piety, there are emphatic people. It speaks about Mary of Magdala: "She went and brought word" to the disciples, chap 16: 10. Then the two going to Emmaus: "they went and brought word to the rest" (v 13). They were emphatic people, standing out in the presence of the profession, of what is average or nominal. We should not be nominal, and we begin with piety.
A.V.W. Why does the scripture use the word 'mystery' in relation to piety?
A.C.C. I think it represents all that was there in Christ, right from His incoming to His being received up in glory. Those who are initiated and who belong to the anointed vessel can understand this somewhat. The mystery of piety was all that was here for God - "this child".
K.L.C. The psalmist speaks of loving Jerusalem: "they shall prosper that love thee", Ps 122: 6.
A.C.C. "Let my tongue cleave to my palate; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy", Ps 137: 6. Well, that is fine; we should think about the assembly in that connection, it would help us to come into line with the Spirit.
K.L.C. You were speaking about Anna and the freshness and youthfulness that we see in her. "They are still vigorous in old age, they are full of sap and green", Ps 92: 14.
A.C.C. Very good - because "they are planted in the house of Jehovah" (v 13). They are planted there; so she was.
J.R.S. Would you say that, if we have desires after Christ and after the assembly, and are concerned to be morally right, God will help us? Paul finishes the first epistle to the Thessalonians with "Now the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly: and your whole spirit, and soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (v 23).
A.C.C. I am glad you referred to 1 Thessalonians. I think that Simeon fits in there; he was waiting for the rapture. I think that Anna was waiting for the appearing but Simeon the rapture. That is what we are waiting for. It was one of Paul's specialities. Although John brings in the rapture too. "I am coming again and shall receive you to myself", chap 14: 3. Still, I think it was one of Paul's specialities, the great truth of the rapture, and Simeon was waiting for that.
B.D.F. Paul speaks to Timothy a lot about piety and he links it on with not loving the present age and things that are here; is that a line of things to bring to a young man's attention?
A.C.C. Very good, that is piety. The affluence that there is, in our country for instance, where they boast about taking care of a person from the cradle to the grave, and they look after people well, could be used to rob us of our piety and our trust in God. It is not that God would not enter into it and make supplies for His people but it should not rob us of the sense of dependence on Himself and trust in Him. That is what He likes.
B.D.F. It speaks of Barnabas as a "good man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith, Acts 11: 24. Is that the kind of man you can trust in the assembly today?
A.C.C. That is very good. You get to know God in piety and in working out things with God in simplicity and trust.
J.N.G. The reference to "A pair of turtle doves or two young pigeons" would link on with that. It was not a position of great affluence here.
A.C.C. No, that is what marked Joseph and Mary; the Lord came in that way and it is characteristic of Him all through the gospel. There was no room for Him, none in the inn. It seems to me that what the Spirit is at is making room for Him, both in the man and the woman. That is what He will do now, do you not think?
J.N.G. I think He would, not only in our gatherings together but in every feature that belongs to our households and individual lives.
A.C.C. And why not? It is this Child; everything as far as God is concerned stands in relation to Christ, and that would enter into all our activities.
A.M.D. Would you say what the difference is between piety and spirituality?
A.C.C. Oh a big difference; you would know.
A.M.D. Piety is the dignity in which we act and do things. Scripture refers to the Spirit that is on us (see 1 Pet 4: 14); spirituality would be the Spirit that is in us, what we are as doing things in the Spirit, in a spiritual way.
A.C.C. I think so. A simple trust in God, simple giving of thanks for our food, that is not spirituality; that is piety, and trusting in God, knowing Him as your Father. That is what the gospels set out, especially Matthew: "Your heavenly Father knows that ye have need of these things", chap 6: 32. You just look to Him and trust in Him, and He delights in that and we should do so too.
J.St. There are two inns in Luke; there is no room in the first one but in the second one there is room for the servant and there is enough there to do until He comes.
A.C.C. Well, we will work that out in the next reading.
L.C.P. It has been said that you can be pious without being spiritual, but to be spiritual you must be pious.
A.C.C. That is a fact; it is built up on that ground.
L.C.P. Spirituality is our relations directly with divine Persons, and that is what this man had. It is something to covet; it is so far beyond me and yet it is there.
A.C.C. Very much to be coveted, a state that permits the Spirit to be free, and to provide conditions for the incoming of Christ. These are simple things; if we want to be spiritual we need to have trust in our Father and get to know Him. That will leave us free in view of making room for the Spirit.
T.O'C. I was thinking of the divine communication by the Spirit to Simeon; how important it is to be listening. We may do a lot of talking, we may do a lot of praying, but to be listening to what is said to us is most important.
A.C.C. Now we are going to speak about that. "It was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death". How wonderful that is! That is the anointed ear; the blood was there, the oil was there. You say something of what you have in mind.
T.O'C. A listening ear is most helpful; we need to be silent sometimes in prayer and listen to what is said to us.
A.C.C. I think that is true. It opens up a great field for our encouragement; such is the state, such is the condition, that the Spirit of God has a means, a vehicle, by which He can convey the mind of God. And in the assembly (I am not speaking for the moment of the individual) He has a vehicle by which the mind of God can be made known - a very wonderful thought.
L.C.P. In Revelation 2 it says "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies".
A.C.C. That belongs to this time of the fall.
J.N.G. Would you see this anointed vessel operating in 1 Corinthians 14? Persons were sitting around and listening by the Spirit and the Spirit is free to communicate in 'that setting.
A.C.C. I thought of that chapter in connection with how the mind of God is conveyed through the prophetic word, the Spirit having that or those, by which He can convey God's mind. It is by that particular means that He conveys the mind of God, the whole truth of the body being sustained and supported and also direction given for the pathway the church.
J.N.G. That makes the prophetic meeting very important, does it not? It is not only brothers who might take part in it vocally but every brother and sister is sitting there in the
power of the Spirit. So it is a very important time.
A.C.C. Let us all therefore be encouraged by the fact that first of all we belong to the anointed vessel; and we do not anoint ourselves, it is by divine sovereignty, divine action, baptised by one Spirit into one body. That is the great matter. Then you come to chapter 14 that you refer to; you would admit that things are not maintained by what is on our bookshelves. The ministry has its place, but things are maintained, both as to sustenance and direction, by the current moves of the Spirit.
J.N.G. So it is important that we come into the meeting by the Spirit.
A.C.C. That is it - by the Spirit.
E.P. His parents wondered at the things that were being said. Do we need to be more honest in regard to what the Spirit is saying to us and the Lord's mind for us in relation to any matter?
A.C.C. Oh yes. Think of the woman in Proverbs 31: her husband is obviously absent, and she is there in his absence carrying things out just as if he was present. And that is what the Spirit of God is aiming at. Oh, you say, it is a broken day. Maybe, but then He would give the grace, and the power, that there might be some reflection of the original. In all the brokenness and obscurity the features would come through: the Spirit would see to that.
J.St. We really have to come to it that we cannot receive or communicate anything except by the Spirit. We feel the importance of what you are saying that, without the Spirit, we cannot receive or speak.
A.C.C. There is nothing effective in anybody unless by the Spirit Himself.
J.St. With us and in us for ever, in the assembly: should that help us to grasp what you are saying?
A.C.C. Well, I think the great encouragement this morning is that we have been divinely honoured, a people of high estate, given such privileges and brought into something that belongs to God down here, and with which the Spirit of God is immediately connected. I would not mind if we did not have anything else but to get hold of that this morning, that that is how we have been taken up by God and set down in such a wonderfully favoured place and given to drink of one Spirit. So there is the baptism outwardly, that is the anointing, but then there is being given to drink of one Spirit; so there is no discrepancy either outwardly or inwardly.
L.C.P. It has been said that we cannot say we are the assembly but can we not say that we are the assembly in principle in a broken day?
A.C.C. Surely, and we hold to that.
L.C.P. Yes; I was thinking that weakness has come in through our saying that we are not the assembly.
A.C.C. Yes, I am very glad you say that. You will remember the man in the Psalm who said to somebody else: "Walk about Zion, and go round about her: count the towers thereof; Mark ye well her bulwarks, consider her palaces: that ye may tell it to the generation following", Ps 48: 12, 13. Now there are two people who saw and knew what Zion was. I think the first was Paul and the second Timothy, and Paul would encourage Timothy to walk about Ephesus, have a good look at her, mark the bulwarks, count the towers, because there is going to be a generation, not that you will see it. "Tell it to the generation following" - that is you and me. We have not seen it in its glory but we have everything carried down in testimony by the Spirit. We have every principle with the glory that belongs to it. We do not have it in its pristine condition, but we have it by faith and we hold to that tenaciously.
A.V.W. Two scriptures occur to me: ''Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard ... which God has prepared ... but God has revealed to us by his Spirit", 1 Cor 2: 9,10. Then, spoken prophetically as to our Lord in Isaiah 11: 3: "he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears". If those faculties are removed, how impossible to receive except by the Spirit.
A.C.C. The natural man just cannot receive them, no matter how good he is.
B.D.F. Is receiving Him into his arms the great result of what we would see in this man that his affections are vitally in the thing?
A.C.C. It is very beautiful; it never says that he let Him go again. Once you have Christ in your arms you have Him for ever. We let Him go too easily. "I held him, and would not let him go", Song of Sol 3: 4. I think it represents what is in God's mind and is carried through, not in public glory but in the affections of the saints; Christ is carried through.
J.R.S. This idea of receiving the Lord Jesus is very attractive. It is not going to be very long before the Lord Jesus receives us and if that is before us more and more, it will help us in our exercises to receive into our hearts and affections every impression of Jesus.
A.C.C. What heart have we for Christ? I constantly raise that with myself and with others. What heart is there for Christ? Ever since the Bethesda trouble that has been the great issue, because what came out at Bethesda was heartlessness as to Christ.
J.C.F. The enemy is constantly attempting to introduce something similar, all the way along, is he not?
A.C.C. Oh yes, I thought this morning of what Abraham insisted of the servant, that he must not bring Isaac down to Mesopotamia: she must come to him (see Gen 24: 6,8). The trend is always down, reduce Christ. But Abraham insisted on it twice over do not bring him down. The question comes up, is there power available to bring her up to Isaac? Surely there is, all the way.
J.N.G. There is something similar to what you have in mind at the end of Malachi. In a day of breakdown in Israel's history, when everything had gone to pieces, the word is "Remember the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, the statutes and ordinances", chap 4: 4. There is no lowering of the standard there.
A.C.C. Everything is carried through and taken up here in the beginning of this book. I am quite sure that these two persons were some sort of prefiguring of what God had in mind and which He achieved through the ministry of Paul.
J.N.G. What you said in regard to Bethesda is very meaningful in the time we are in, because persons are saying, It is so long ago and we have not looked into it. They are not interested enough in regard to the person of Christ to look into the origin of these things to protect the testimony.
A.C.C. We do not forget those issues. In the reference to the assembly in Matthew (see chap 18: 18) the retaining of the sins come first; John puts it the other way.
A.M.D. It says that the Lord's mother kept all these things in her heart, and she evidently kept them and took them out every now and then and contemplated them.
A.C.C. Kept them in her heart; that is the place to keep them, and Christ will have His place there. Referring again to Matthew's gospel, in chapter 16: 19 Jesus says: "I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens". Then in chapter 18: 18; "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven". Matthew puts the binding first because the assembly here in the place of Christ resents every attack or assault on the rights of Christ. The assembly is here so much in His place that she resents every attack on Him; and who would not resent these things that have attacked Christ? In every issue you find it; whatever might be the exterior, Christ is the point of attack.
A.V.W. The ministry is very challenging and it comes to each of us, does it not? You spoke earlier as to the blood and the oil, and that must have its bearing on me in a practical way each day.
A.C.C. Well, the divine rights and divine claims are there in the blood. He has a right to your ear. In the ear you have the whole body, that is the idea, "ears hast thou prepared me" (Ps 40: 6) which is translated in Heb 10: 5: "thou hast prepared me a body". If He gets the ear, so to speak, the whole body is available to Him. Oh, what a vehicle! That is what impressed me, what a vehicle is here available to God by the Spirit in view of the mind of God being communicated. There does not need to be any difficulty. People say, Oh, we must wait for the judgment-seat. To me that is not true at all. There is everything available in view of the resolution of every matter, and to go on in the current mind of God. The difficulty lies with us; we get our ears blocked.
J.C.F. The Spirit is still here.
A.C.C. Oh yes, or you would not be here and I would not be here. Our time is nearly up and we have not yet spoken about this woman Anna. She represents the historical side; she is a prophetess, she has been a wife, she is a widow. All that brings up the side of history. As I said, her tribe is given, her age is given; these are absent with Simeon. I think it represents the side of moral exercises, and she is night and day serving and that brings up Paul's great night and day serving in Acts 20: 31: "night and day ... with tears". Think of the tears she would have too. But she spoke of Him, she "spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption". That is the appeal, she spoke of Him to all those who waited for that.
G.R.W. Does that make her a prophetess? Why is she spoken of as a prophetess?
A.C.C. That must have been part of her character, what came out as being available to
communicate the prophetic word. She has that classification which is something choice, something to be coveted too, I suppose.
G.R.W. I am thinking of the other prophetesses mentioned in Acts (see chap 2: 17; 21: 9). Also, Paul speaks about the women having their heads covered and praying and prophesying (see 1 Cor 11: 5). There seems to be a special part for sisters.
A.C.C. Yes, it brings out the beautiful feature about her, the first thing that is mentioned: "there was a prophetess". I think it is what the Spirit of God would pronounce with any of our sisters who are thus available to Him to communicate something after the current mind of God. She has that in her testimony, it belongs to her testimony, and I believe it belongs to the historical side. There are Philip's four daughters, and in the Old Testament we have them too; there were certain prophetesses available, maybe when there was no prophet. Think of Deborah for instance (see Judg 4: 4), she was able to communicate God's mind for the moment.
J.N.G. This sister was a prophetess, she was a daughter and she was a widow.
A.C.C. Yes; that goes with the subjective side, the side where history is wrought out. It is not so much the side of the anointing, belonging to the anointed vessel, that is sovereign, but I think there are the moral exercises that proceed alongside of that, and Anna represents that. You need them both for the filling out of the testimony. You cannot be all objective, you must have the subjective going along with it, the side of growth and experience.
J.N.G. Does the objective side help us to go through the historical side?
A.C.C. That must be first.
A.V.W. It says of Asher, "Let him dip his foot in oil", Deut 33: 24. Something of that comes right down to this sister.
A.C.C. Yes, and he "shall be blessed with sons". But she is not a son. What do you say about that?
B.D.F. She would be a protector. I am thinking of what you said as to Acts 20: 31, what Paul was laying on them, to be protecting what was of Christ here in a very real way.
A.C.C. Very good; I think that too is a service which each of us could easily take up. But she is a prophetess and she is a daughter of the tribe of Asher, far advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, herself a widow up to eight -four years. Notice these numerals: seven years, she was seven years married, her husband died young. Stephen was a young man, and God broke His marital link with Israel at the death of Stephen; that is to say God maintained a national link with Israel until they rejected and killed Stephen, and God broke his marital link with Israel as a nation. I think that alludes to Anna's husband. Then you begin the long period of eighty-four years widowhood, and that brings up the whole course of Paul's ministry. Do you think so?
A.V.W. The long side of history, it is most instructive to us.
A.C.C. Well, think about it, these things are not down there for nothing. Eighty-four years
- that is twelve times seven. Seven years from her virginity, seven years married life then eight-four years long period of widowhood, down through the dark ages.
E.P. Can you say something about Anna not departing from the temple.
A.C.C. That is as Paul said in Acts 20: "serving night and day, with tears".
J.C.F. Are you linking your thought of widowhood with the assembly in a time of Christ's absence?
A.C.C. Yes certainly, only she is not a widow; do not misunderstand me. Her head is in heaven. We were in danger of having a head on earth like others. There is a head on earth he sits in Rome. We were in danger of having an earthly head and it has no place in Paul's system. But we know in character what widowhood is, we know it in spirit; He is absent, He is out of sight, but we have a living Head in heaven.
E.P. It says that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit (see 1 Cor 6: 19). Would this mark Anna? It is quite a challenge to any one of us as to how real our links are with Christ and the Spirit.
A.C.C. Do you not think that it comes back to our committal to things, and how really we value what has been set up at the beginning under the ministry of Paul? We refer to the ministry of Paul but it is really the Spirit in His great ideal in setting things up at the beginning. He would bring out the testimony of that and He would expect us all to be fully committed to it. Anna was that, she had no interest elsewhere; all her interests were in the temple and, like Simeon who came in at the very hour, so does she. That is what marks people who are going on with the truth and the Spirit; they are instantaneous, so to speak, there is no lagging behind, they are just there at the right moment.
T.O'C. She spoke of Him. Anyone who was praying and fasting like Anna would be very ready to speak of Christ.
A.C.C. Very challenging! That brings up the matter of what our conversation is, whether Christ is the centre of our conversation. She spoke of Him, she knew the Lord and she knew everyone that waited for redemption in Jerusalem. I think it represents this side of what was set up under Paul, a side of definite committal to what there is of Christ here.
Ques. In Luke 4: 22 they wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of His mouth; would that be connected with the anointed vessel?
A.C.C. Yes, He was that. It is just what comes out there.
J.St. "All those who waited": if we were waiting we would not be going on with what is here but going on with what God has here: she was one of them. Can we help each other to be occupied with Christ in a waiting time?
A.C.C. What are you waiting for?
J.St. Thessalonians is one aspect of it, but we are waiting for a new heaven and a new earth, Peter says; all our prospects we are waiting for, we have no prospects here, have we?
A.C.C. No, we are waiting for Him, and we are waiting for the world to come, and we are waiting for a new heavens and a new earth.
There was a party being shown round a clothing factory and they came upon an old Jew who was sewing on buttons. Someone said, You are sewing on buttons. No, he said, I am waiting. What are you waiting for? Oh, I am waiting for the Saviour. He was only sewing on buttons while he was waiting for the Saviour.
J.N.G. What do you connect this eight-four years with? Does it go up to the time of Paul in Rome, and turning to the nations, or does it go beyond that?
A.C.C. I think it covers the whole period right down to our time. As you know, at the close of the book of the Acts Paul has not died, he is still serving in his own hired lodging. I think that the eighty-four years covers that, a perfect period of administration. You say, what about the breakdown? The Spirit of God has been here and you cannot connect the breakdown, even in administration, with the Spirit.
J.N.G. That is very good, there is no breakdown at the end of Acts.
BENDIGO
21 March 1987
Key to initials
L.H.Bennett, Warrnambool; A.C.Craig, Airdrie; K.L.Clark, Stawell; A.M.Davidson, Melbourne; B.D.Fooks, Melbourne; J.C.French, Melbourne; J.N.Grace, Melbourne; T.O'Connor, Melbourne; E.Pilcher, Bendigo; L.C.Pittock, Ballarat; J.A.Seeley, Melbourne; J.Stenhouse, Bathurst; A.V.Way, Melbourne; G.R,Wellington, Melbourne