HEBREWS 13 (SECOND READING)
HEBREWS 13 (SECOND READING)
Ques Is there any reason why it says, “Obey your leaders” in verse 17, not just leaders generally?
[p. 152] CAC I thought that the Hebrews are seen as identified with the general movements of the saints.
Ques Does it apply to leaders who were contemporary with them or to those who had gone before?
CAC I thought that the leaders that are spoken of in verse 7 are those that have gone before and that those in verse 17 are those of the present time. Verse 7 would refer to the apostles, “who have spoken to you the word of God”. It has been noted that the apostles are not mentioned as such in this epistle. They are referred to in chapter 2 as “those who have heard”. That is, there is nothing to detach either leaders or apostles from the body of the saints. The writer of the epistle takes his place along with the brethren all through. He says, “We have heard”; the gospel has been preached to “us”; “Let us”. He identifies himself with the whole body of the saints. Leaders are identified with the general movement that is going on.
Ques Would leaders have the character of shepherds?
CAC It seems so. They watch for (or ‘over’) your souls. I think one who is watching for the souls of the saints is pretty much in the spirit of a true leader. He is going on and is free from himself and his things; he is occupied in watching for the souls of the saints.
Ques Does not the shepherd feature come out in Moses and David?
CAC Yes. They watched for souls. It is a great thing to see that the Lord has committed responsibility to persons. We ought to recognise those who are watching for our souls; it does not say that they teach or minister the word, but they watch for the souls of the saints. One would rather be a holy watcher than a minister of the word; there is something attractive in watching.
Ques Do you mean caring for their spiritual prosperity?
CAC [p. 153] Yes; it is one of the abiding things. Watching for souls is going to be found amongst the saints whilst the church is here; it is a principle that operates in the care meeting. Those sitting down together in holy watchfulness are exercising vigilant care over the souls of the saints. There is nothing more precious than the care meetings.
Rem Peter speaks of the Lord as the Overseer of your souls.
CAC Yes; an overseer gives this touch of watching souls. Paul says, “Take heed... to all the flock”. This thought here is that they are leaders by divine appointment; it is not a man setting up to be a leading brother. Leaders have to give an account. There is no thought of a man being a leader unless he is a pattern. Timothy was to be a model of believers although he was comparatively a young man. Then there is the thought of responsibility. We are weak on that. Leaders have to give an account; if they do it with groaning they feel how ineffective their service has been.
Ques Is not the responsibility on us to follow?
CAC Yes. If someone in caring for my soul has to feel that his service has been ineffective, so that he can only groan, it is unprofitable for me. Suppose we lose a brother or sister, do we groan? Have we watched for their souls? If we let a sheep go, it shews that our service is so inefficient that we could not hold them.
Ques Would those who are unestablished call for more care than others?
CAC Yes. I know of no scripture that attaches responsibility to the sheep. If God has committed to us a responsibility as to the flock, it is a solemn thing if the sheep go astray. I must first of all blame myself, for I am responsible for them. The leaders seem to have responsibility as to souls, so they watch for our souls.
Ques It says “Obey your leaders”; is that the principle of subjection?
CAC The divine economy can only work on the principle of subjection, nothing in the kingdom or in the house of God will work save on that principle. The whole thing is wrecked if there is not subjection. The recognition of the principle of care in the assembly is very important, and also that there should be the principle of subjection. We all have to be exercised about the spirit of submission.
Ques What is the difference between obedience and submission?
CAC Submission suggests that your spirit is in it. You might obey and yet be rebellious inside; that is not submission.
“That they may do this with joy” is an appeal to the spiritual affections of the saints. The saints would wish that those in responsibility for their souls should be able to give an account with joy. It is a dreadful thing if one set in responsibility by the Lord could only groan.
Ques How far does this apply today?
CAC We have all to see that the element of leadership is there. Every one should aspire to be moving in a way that will be an encouragement to others. That does not set aside the fact that there are, and will be, those to whom God has committed responsibility to watch over the souls of His people. It says in verse 24, “Salute all your leaders, and all the saints”. There are persons who give a spiritual lead and watch for the souls of the saints, who are to be distinctly recognised. It may need grace for us to recognise them, but they are there and are to be recognised.
Ques Is leading to be in the way of influence?
CAC It would not do much without moral influence being with it. There is a certain principle of rule. A person who is a leader would be able to take up verse 18, “Pray for us: for we persuade ourselves that we have a good conscience,
[p. 155] in all things desirous to walk rightly”. The writer of the epistle puts himself on common ground with the brethren. It is striking that he should seek for prayer on this line. “We persuade ourselves that we have a good conscience” — that is the ground on which he asks for the prayers of the saints. People who are walking well are entitled to the prayers of the saints. People who are walking badly are not; they may need their prayers but they do not deserve them! We are not entitled to the prayers of the saints on any other ground. Prayer is generally for those who are walking well. We read of no prayer in 1 Corinthians or Galatians; they were not in a state to deserve prayer. People in a bad, imperfect or defective state need to be met by ministry of the word in the power of the Spirit. Prayer is generally presented in Scripture as for people in a good state, so we read more of prayer in Ephesians than in any other epistle. They are viewed in the full height of the christian position. The Lord’s prayer in John 17 is on the ground that they deserve to be prayed for. Prayer comes in for support, help and enlargement of what is of God; what is wrong is met by the ministry of the word in the power of the Spirit.
What sets the apostle praying in Colossians and Ephesians is that he has heard of their faith in Christ Jesus and love to all the saints. He had heard of their good state and so he prays. We do not study the prayers of the epistles enough. Paul is the chief one who prays; they should be studied as models for assembly prayer. Paul was persuaded good of the Hebrews, so he asks for their prayers. I do not wish to say that we are not to pray for those who are walking badly, but in Scripture prayer is more generally found for the people who are walking well and in liberty.
Ques Are we not exhorted to pray for all men?
CAC There you are evangelical. Prayer for kings and those in authority is important in order that we may lead [p. 156] tranquil lives, so we pray for the powers that be. That is rather a different line. Praying for all men is on the line of God’s grace; prayer for kings is on the line of government; but that is different from what we are speaking of now.
I think we should say a little about verses 20 and 21. I thought the eternal covenant referred to the unalterable terms on which God is with His people. He brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus. The only mention of the Lord’s resurrection in this epistle is this one. It is the great evidence that God is for His people. He has brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, “in the power of the blood of the eternal covenant”. Things are on an unalterable basis; God is known in that character as working in the souls of His people. God as thus known is working by Jesus Christ in His people so that He may have pleasure in them. Every provision is made that God should have pleasure in a people made perfect to do His will through Jesus Christ: it is a wonderful climax to the epistle.
Ques What is the meaning of “the power of the blood”?
CAC I thought it was the footing on which all stands. The Lord Jesus has taken up office as the great Shepherd of the sheep after the sacrificial work has been accomplished. The care of the flock of God is now committed to Him. He is the great Shepherd of the sheep; He is the great Shepherd in the power of the blood of the eternal covenant. Things on the divine side are on an unchangeable basis. That is God’s character, how He is moving on behalf of His people. He has provided the great Shepherd; all has been done in the blood of the covenant. God in that character is working in His people by Jesus Christ. Nothing can change these things; nothing can put the Lord back into death or take away His ability to be the great Shepherd. God who has acted in this glorious way is working in the souls of His people to make them perfect, so that His pleasure may be worked in them. It would be a [p. 157] dreadful thing to think of the blood of the covenant as common. Here it is what is secured for God; God is now free to work in the souls of His people. Sins and sin and the flesh are not there; God has dealt with all that and now He is free to work in the souls of His people by Jesus Christ. Everything pleasurable to God is brought about by Jesus Christ. Impressions of Christ are the only things that bring about what is pleasing to God. We may read books, or hear addresses and no change may be produced, but an impression of Jesus Christ will make a change. Every impression we get of Jesus Christ demands adjustment and brings about what is pleasurable to God.
Ques Why is Timothy the only living saint mentioned here?
CAC I suppose he was worthy to be put alongside the teaching of this epistle. That is the reason of the names of persons mentioned at the end of epistles; they are worthy of the teaching of the epistle. Timothy was set free to be under the influence of Jesus Christ. It would be well for us to take that home; nothing effects the pleasure of God in us but impressions of Jesus Christ; that brings about what is pleasing to God.