A MAN RIGHTLY DISCERNED BY HIS TESTIMONY
[p. 140] A MAN RIGHTLY DISCERNED BY HIS TESTIMONY
FER It is rather striking what comes out in the latter part of the chapter — that a man is to be judged for his testimony, that is, the servant.
ER Do you mean judged by the saints or the Lord?
FER I think judged of the saints, that is the point here. You rightly judge a man by his testimony.
JSO Which verse do you refer to in the end of the chapter?
FER Verse 18, “God is faithful”. The Corinthians were not judging the apostle by his testimony. They were greatly affected by others. The testimony is the criterion of the man properly.
DLH That is to say, it is what a man is?
FER The testimony and the effect of it makes manifest the man and a man is rightly discerned by his testimony.
WB That supposes that those who discern him have eyes to see?
FER The Corinthians were so much affected by the influence of others; he takes the ground here that he is judged by his testimony.
Ques Do you mean the testimony to men?
FER It is the testimony that he brings, “Our word”. The testimony was the Son of God. He was the testimony.
ER What is the object of this epistle?
FER I think that the object of it is very much unfolded in the apostle’s ministry. His ministry was to carry the saints with him outside and beyond themselves. The object of the first epistle was to set [p. 141] the saints right and the point in the second epistle is to bring about enlargement of heart to go out beyond themselves. The Corinthians thought everything of Corinth.
WJ Does he not open out his experience in connection with it, too?
FER He does to show the enlargement which was connected with the ministry. It is in connection with the ministry that you get enlargement.
MG They were so much occupied with themselves that they were not occupied with Christ?
FER I think so. They had gifts and were in a sense increased with goods but they were too fond of themselves too, and that is not the principle and spirit of christianity.
MG They were not a very worshipping people?
FER I do not think they were, and if they were defective in the priestly part, you may depend upon it that the levitical part was defective too. It seems to me that it is a very important principle which the apostle enunciates here that a man is judged by his testimony. It is a right standard of judgment.
WB I think that needs a little enlargement. What do you mean by his testimony?
FER I think that the result of the apostle’s testimony was to give to the saints the sense of the stability of God’s purposes, and if that was the effect of his testimony, they ought not to have refused his word. If you get lightness in a man in connection with the testimony, it shows that he is not much different himself.
Ques Does that come out in 1 Thessalonians 1: 5, “For our glad tidings were not with you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit”?
FER Yes.
DLH He refers to this establishing you mentioned at the close of the chapter, “He that establishes us with you in Christ”?
FER It is in connection with the idea of stability.
JSO Their state only hindered the apostle carrying out his purpose?
FER They judged the apostle in the most superficial way. I believe it is a true standard, that a man is nothing beyond his testimony, and that a man might be rightly judged by his testimony, if a man uses fleshly means and ways in his testimony, he is characterised by it himself.
MG Is not that what the apostle means when he says, “Thou hast fully known my doctrine”?
FER Yes.
Rem All have not got the gift, the same light of Scripture.
FER I think many people make great mistakes about gift. I think a man is characterised by gift; a man cannot have gift and not be characterised by it. Every gift must be a simple expression of Christ, and if you have not first got an impression, you cannot have an expression.
ER It must be inside before it is outside?
FER Yes. Every gift is Christ. Christ was the focus of every gift; He was the Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher, every gift was in Christ.
JSO You could not separate gift from the state of the person who has it.
Rem Every gift is according to what a man has received.
FER And it expresses itself in the character of a man, so that a man is according to his gift.
DLH The Corinthians themselves were in a very abnormal state. They came behind in no gift but their testimony was very poor.
JSO That is just the state. The gift was ineffective?
FER The gift was not ineffective. There were manifestations of the Spirit there, but they were not gifts as I understand gifts in Ephesians [p. 143] 4.
DLH I suppose that a person might have gift and might carry on people beyond their actual condition a good bit?
FER I would scarcely call it gift. It is more the manifestations of the Spirit. It is a different idea from what is presented in Ephesians 4, “Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men”. I do not think that it runs quite with that.
DLH The Ephesians and Corinthians do not run parallel?
FER It is taken up in Corinthians as manifestations of the Spirit, and an unconverted man might come under it in that way. That is what makes one hesitate to call it gift.
JSO Chapter 13 brings out what you were saying?
FER Years ago I did not understand it a bit, but I see something of gift now. People think that gift is really ability to talk, whereas gift is that which enables us in some way to be a representation of Christ down here.
DLH So that you impress others?
FER Yes. You get all these things coming out in the Lord. He was the Evangelist and certainly He was the Pastor and Teacher. Every gift was there. Now He has gone to the right hand of God and all these things come out all the world over in individuals.
FC Would you call it gift when you say that the Lord had every gift, and had everything in Himself which is gift in us?
FER He was the expression of everything which is gift in us. He gives nothing but what is of Himself.
MG Is not that what we get in 2 Corinthians 3, Christ written “on fleshy tables of the heart”?
FER Yes.
JSO What was in Him is now expressed in us in the power of the Spirit [p. 144] of God.
DLH I suppose the apostle himself was impressed by the Son of God?
FER I think so.
JSO That he might preach Him as glad tidings among the nations?
FER It is remarkable how it is put there (Galatians 1: 15, 16), “When God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me”; that was the impression the apostle got.
WJ You would say that gift is the expression of an impression?
FER Yes.
WJ Does not the apostle turn to it when he says, “examine your own selves”?
FER Yes, they themselves were the fruit of his gift.
JSO It would be a very important subject, this gift. It would hinder imitation?
FER The fact is, it is a very long time before a man is sure of what his gift is. A man does not find out his gift in a moment.
WJ You would not be so careful about your subject, but desire more to make an impression on the souls of the saints.
FER Exactly, but any impression that you make is really the result of an impression on yourself.
WJ That is important because state of soul comes in?
FER The more I go on the less I care about subject.
WJ And sometimes when you do not handle your subject very well, you make a greater impression than if you had handled it well?
JSO You want the work to be such that the subject would be a secondary matter?
FER Exactly.
MG And then you would have a living ministry?
FER You see how distinct the apostle’s ministry was. The testimony of the twelve referred to the [p. 145] sufferings and exaltation of Christ; they were companions of Christ after the flesh, witnesses of His sufferings and had seen Him go up to heaven, too; but Paul comes out with something very distinctive, the Son of God is One who has come forth. The twelve knew that Christ had come forth from God, but it does not form part of their testimony.
JSO Do you mean come forth into the world?
FER Yes, He came forth. “God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law”.
DLH What about John in that connection?
FER John in his writings comes out confirmative of Paul in his writings. As to the testimony in the world, it was Paul who preached that He is Son of God and in the passage already quoted you have, “God was pleased to reveal his Son in me that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations”.
WJ May we not judge that there was a measure of recovery with the Corinthians?
FER Oh yes, it comes out that they had proved themselves pure in the matter.
WJ He credits them with the sufferings too?
DLH He says further on, “Our mouth is open to you Corinthians our heart is expanded”.
FER They were straitened in themselves.
DLH He was able to speak to them in the second epistle of things he had not been able to speak to them in the first epistle.
FER Yes, some of them even denied the resurrection. You have got no Son of God if there is no resurrection.
WJ Would you say this is an advance on the first epistle? He opens out advanced truth to them. I mean the ministry.
FER You have a remarkable passage here at the close of the chapter, in the last few verses. What the apostle brings forward is the stability of everything. The promises of God in Christ and the glory to God [p. 146] by us, that is you have the glory of God come in in the saints. It is glory to God by us.
DLH Does that mean that the saints are necessary to bring out the glory of God eventually?
FER I think it is present.
Ques Was that the apostle or the saints?
FER The saints. What I understand by the glory of God is the introduction of Christ in the very place where He was rejected. That is what I understand by the glory of God — it is the complete triumph of God in Christ.
DLH Is it that the saints are the vessel in whom Christ is manifested down here?
FER Yes. If you could conceive the idea, you have witness in the saints of the triumph of God. God has displaced man and introduced the man that is according to Himself.
Ques Is that the purpose of God?
FER It is Christ in you the hope of glory, in the place where everything was lost, everything is regained. It is Christ in us now.
DLH Do we not get it also in the close of chapter 3, “Looking on the glory of the Lord ... transformed according to the same image”?
FER Exactly. I do not think that we are alive to the wonderful character of what God has brought about; the complete displacement of the man that existed and the introduction of the Son of God, the second Man.
DLH We were having some talk last time on this particular subject. It might be well if you could say a word or two upon it, as it was not very clearly brought out, that is, the distinction between the first man and the old man referred to in Romans 6.
FER It is perfectly certain that the old man is the first man.
DLH Only is it not so that in 1 Corinthians 15 the body is still the link with the first man, who is there spoken of, “And as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly”?
FER We belong outwardly to the first man, that is certain.
DLH The terms are not interchangeable. It is that order of man and we are still partakers of that man which the old man is a moral expression of. That is what I thought about it. We are in the light of the displacement of the first man?
FER Yes, but the first man displaced himself.
ERBR That is what I was just going to remark.
FER Where is the first man? He is out of this world, anyway.
J.S.O. You refer to Adam?
FER Yes.
JSO I thought that Mr. B.’s objection was using the expression ‘first man’ where it was not used in Scripture.
WB I thought that we were in danger of using scriptural terms in unscriptural ways and connections.
WJ Would you say of necessity that the first man of the earth earthy is evil?
FER Certainly not. The first man was as good as God could make him, he never was heavenly and you could not make him heavenly, because God made him earthy. You must have another man.
WJ He was constituted for earth?
FER Constituted for earth. No one of us could possibly enter into what the first man was properly; you cannot have an idea of it. The fall entirely altered the constitution of man.
WJ Is not that the great difference between the old man and the first man that the old man is moral?
FER Yes, it is the introduction of the new that makes the first old.
Ques Does not the old man include the condition which is evil morally?
FER It says, “The old man which corrupts itself according to the deceitful lusts; and being renewed in the spirit of your mind: and your having put on the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness”, Ephesians 4: 22 - 24. Every natural obligation is carried out in the power of new creation. New creation touches everything in that way. I think that affects the christian in every stage of life down here.
DLH So that the expression ‘old man and new man’ is moral?
FER Exactly. The subject of 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection of the body.
WB What has been said meets entirely the difficulty I had in regard to it.
FER It is a wonderful thing to think that a man has come in who is the complete revelation of God and in whom every purpose of God is established. The Son of God was the one who completely and fully set God forth, and everything is established in Him and there it is for glory to God by us. I cannot conceive anything more wonderful than the thought of God in the very scene where Christ was rejected and died. God has brought Christ in, and it is as if God said, ‘I will give Him a place in the very scene where He was disowned’.
JSO The church’s failure is the measure of the failure displayed toward Christ?
FER Exactly, the church is for the setting forth of Christ.
ERBR Verse 22 gives us how it is accomplished?
FER Yes.
DLH Then it is of all importance that we should apprehend His Person?
J.S.O. And His place?
FER And there is glory to God by us in the present moment down here. God is glorified in us, nowhere else. I believe that the moment a person gets hold of “Christ in you, the hope of glory” that person is changed; he must be, the glory of God must connect itself with another man.
WJ And he is put off in that way?
FER I can understand the grace of God, but if you come to the glory of God, it must come out in another man. It practically means Christ in me.
WJ That becomes your glory.
FER Yes, it is your glory, but it is the glory of God.
DLH That is what the apostle speaks of as his gospel, “The glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”?
FER Yes, but the point is that that was the light in the hearts of the saints.
JSO In Saul’s conversion you get all this in germ and character?
FER I think so. Saul recognised in his conversion that it was a divine Person speaking to him. He must have had the sense at the bottom of his soul that it was a divine Person addressing him.
DLH Would you say a word about the anointing here?
FER I think he first shows the establishing in Christ. J.N.D.’s note in the translation reads, I think, ‘attaches firmly to’.
DLH In the note it is ‘attaches firmly to, connects firmly with’.
FER That is the idea. It is a work going on in souls. The promises of God which are in Him is really the inheritance, and therefore you get, “sealed us and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”. The earnest of the Spirit refers to the inheritance. We have the sense that Christ is in us and of the stability of the promises of God, there is the inheritance and we have the earnest of the inheritance.
WB What about the anointing?
FER What [p. 150] would you say?
WB I want all the light I can get.
FER And so do I.
WB I should like to get a clear thought about the anointing.
FER The anointing properly gives you the character of Christ.
ER I thought it was in connection with spiritual conception.
FER You get the idea of power connected with it. “Jesus who was of Nazareth how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power”. I think it must give you the character of Christ.
ER In John’s epistle we have, “And ye have the unction from the holy one”.
FER You know everything by the Spirit, but the Spirit teaches you by forming you and not as we teach one another. The Spirit brings you really into the light of divine love, that is the character of the teaching, and it is astonishing what progress you make then.
WJ “The eyes of your understanding being enlightened”, is that the idea?
FER Yes.
FC In what sense did you say we are firmly attached to Christ?
FER It is God who is giving stability to saints because that is the way in which stability comes really, and attaches our hearts to Christ. It is continuous. Anointing is not continuous.
DLH Is not this firmly attaching to Christ effected by the power of the Spirit?
FER I think so entirely. In connection with the anointing, you take another character, the character of Christ.
WJ Does not this come out here to meet the effort at Corinth to detach the saints from the apostle?
FER Yes, and the effect of this is to detach people from the world. What this brings before you [p. 151] is your complete independence in regard to everything. You have everything from God, the anointing, the sealing and the earnest of the Spirit, you are not dependent upon the world for anything because you have everything from God. All the promises of God are in Him, and you have a place in Him, you are being attached to Him, you have the anointing, the sealing and the earnest of the Spirit; what more could you have?
DLH There is an ample sufficiency to qualify us for coming out here.
FER What inheritance in this world could compare with this?
JSO The apostle was in the full power of his ministry and that is what characterised him?
FER I think so. The great subject of his ministry was the Son of God, He was the special burden of Paul’s ministry. I have been much struck by the beginning of John. It seems to me that God has become a testimony for Himself. God has become His own testimony, I mean it is different from anything that went before. In the Old Testament there was the testimony of creation, the law and the prophets. But in the New Testament God is His own testimony.
JSO Something like Hebrews, God speaking in Son?
FER Exactly.
DLH Now Christ is personally withdrawn but the Holy Spirit comes and takes His place in the saints, so that the testimony is continued?
FER Quite so, and if the thing is in power it is perfectly unanswerable.
ER In chapter 5 the earnest of the Spirit seems to have its application to the glorified body?
FER The Spirit is the pledge of redemption. You have the earnest of the Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession. The first thing that [p. 152] is redeemed is the body of the saints. The Spirit is the pledge of redemption even of the body.
Ques Is the earnest of the Spirit an unction?
FER It is the Spirit from another point of view. It is wonderful to see the light of God coming out, everything gathered up in Christ, all the promises of God, “in him is the yea and in him the amen for glory to God by us”. I think that the great hindrance to this is our attachment to things down here, instead of our attachment to Christ.
DLH Prophetically we get these things in Psalm 2 and Psalm 8?
FER Yes, and He comes out as Son of God who is going to rule the nations with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.