THE FATHER KNOWN IN GLORY
THE FATHER KNOWN IN GLORY
JBS The very opening of the chapter, as has often been remarked, gives the character of it. He “lifted up his eyes to heaven”.
Ques. In what way?
JBS You see if you revert to chapters 13 and 14 that the Lord is inside with His disciples. In chapters 15 and 16 they are walking on the earth; those chapters have reference to the path of service. Now in chapter 17 He connects them with the Father.
GG Is chapter 17 not at the supper table?
JBS No; nor chapters 15 and 16. Only chapters 13 and 14 are at the supper table. At the close of chapter 14 the Lord says, “Arise, let us go hence”. He then refers to the vine. Israel had failed as the vine; the Lord is the true vine. The Lord could say at the moment, “I am the vine, ye are the branches”. The vine is for the earth. He was going away, and He uses the figure of the vine in order that they should abide in Him though He had gone to heaven. They are branches, and they would be of no use except they abide in the vine. A branch cannot bear fruit of itself except it abide in the vine.
DLH You were saying yesterday something as to the comparison of this part of John with the tabernacle. You spoke of the brazen altar and the most holy place; we should like to know something more of it.
JBS I only used it as a sort of illustration. Chapter 13 opens with the Supper - that was the passover. The Supper prefigures His death. Then He rises from Supper to wash their feet. The Supper answers to the altar, the washing the feet to the laver. Chapter 14 is like feeding on the consecration offering [p. 367] in the holy place. In the holy place was the candlestick and table of shewbread. The candlestick would be the place of Israel on earth. Chapter 14 you are inside feeding.
DLH Does chapter 14 answer to the table of shewbread?
JBS Well, though you are inside feeding the effect was to be seen outside. The candlestick and table of shewbread were in one place. We have to learn, and this is very interesting, the way, as we read in Hebrews, the tabernacle or heaven itself is thrown open to us, and we are the priestly company to accomplish His service. In John you get the essential quality of the grace imparted to you while on the earth; but nothing from earth, and nothing from man.
G.G. But on earth?
JBS Yes; that makes the grace the more marvellous.
Ques. No veil in Hebrews?
JBS No; heaven is thrown open to you; therefore if you enter the holy place as the consecrated company you will find the “most holy” thrown open to you.
FHB While on earth we are brought to the enjoyment of what is in heaven.
JBS In a sense heaven is brought to us; and not simply the place, but we are introduced into it morally by and through Him who is there. In this chapter the Father is the subject. In chapter 14 the Father was made known as Christ was seen here, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. Now the Father is declared as He is in heaven.
GG In John 17 everything is looked at as accomplished?
JBS Yes; it is all anticipation. “Having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end”. To use a theological term, He is giving them a charge. You see it makes it a wonderful thing [p. 368] to be on this earth, and not of it. A Jew could not understand that you were to be on the earth in unbounded blessing, and yet nothing to come from the earth nor from man. It seems to me there is a break at verse 13, “And now come I to thee and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves”. That verse gives the turn to the chapter. It is connected with “I come to thee”, not with “Now I am no more in this world”. The great thing is acquaintance with the Father. There are two ways in which we learn the Father. You learn Him as Christ personally declared Him on the earth, and now as He is in glory. The last verse of this chapter embraces both; “I have declared unto them thy name”, that He has done; “and will declare it”, that is what He is now doing.
DLH Is that in connection with the operation of the Spirit of God now?
JBS Yes; it is all by the Spirit. It is only by the Spirit we can say Father. As you get nothing from earth, and nothing from man, you must get all from God. It is very definite. If you are outside man and earth, you cannot receive from either.
ER The important thing to see is that He is doing all by the Spirit. It could be in no other way. T.H.R. Only He is doing it from His place in glory.
JBS Everything comes down from heaven even the manna must come down from glory. Some read the gospels and think they are picking up manna; they are not; you cannot get manna except down from heaven. I must get the manna fresh from Himself in heaven, where He is. The manna is Himself, what He was; but I must get it from Him. He is made higher than the heavens. Some leave out the last part of that verse, “holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens “. If you receive anything fresh, any comfort at all, it is from Christ,
[p. 369] fresh from heaven. That is very important. I knew a brother who used to read the gospels to imitate the Lord. I think some know very little of what is in the gospels; they know much more of the epistles.
THR We all go to the epistles first.
JBS It is the way to learn, but you must go to where He is to get Him. If you want to know the ways of the Lord on earth you must go to the gospels. “He shall ... bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”. You must receive it fresh from Himself in heaven. The Holy Spirit is come down to us from Christ in heaven, and He makes Him known to us as He was down here for our help and comfort; and He makes known Christ in glory that we may be able to testify of Him. Everything comes from heaven now.
FHB The great thing in John is that we are brought now into what will be our eternal portion.
JBS There is nothing we shall have by-and-by but we are given to taste of now. John gives us the essential quality. John is looking at the gold, so to speak, and not at the quartz. Paul eliminates all the quartz.
Ques What is the difference between “Thy word” in verse 6 and verse 14?
DLH J.N.D. says in a note on verse 14 it is “the word of God in testimony”.
FHB Is it not always the Father’s testimony?
THR In verse 8 it is a different word, the divine communications.
Ques What do you mean by divine communications?
THR There are special communications in those “words”. The word is the whole scope of verses 6 and 14.
Ques When you speak of the whole scope, you mean the whole scope in connection with [p. 370] the Father?
JBS We shall come to that presently. The first thing is, “Glorify thy Son that thy Son also may glorify thee”. He will declare the Father in glory; the last verse of the chapter embraces both. In two ways you learn the Father: one is as Christ when on earth turned to Him about everything; the other is as you learn Him in His own circle. In chapter 14 He says, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. To make this known to us the Father sends the Holy Spirit in Christ’s name (verse 26). In chapter 17 He is declaring the Father in His own circle. In the gospels, Mark’s gospel, for instance, the Lord, instead of altering your circumstances helps you by altering you in them. The Lord never changed a circumstance for Himself. He showed that the Father would always raise a man superior to evil. Even when He was at the lowest point, deserted by His own, He says, “I am not alone, because the Father is with me”. People generally look for help in natural things by the removal of troubles. As I understand the word ‘Father’, I derive from Him. It is the great point in John. I am brought into the divine circle. We constantly are looking for Him to come down and alter our circumstances here to suit us naturally, instead of rising up to His circle and entering on His things. The Lord when down here ever turned to the Father, and He was ever above things here according to the Father’s circle. He had no model but that. Thus in the storm He is as placid and as quiet as if there were no storm; as restful in the care of the Father in the storm as in the calm. He was ever in communion with the Father. He brought everything into consonance with the Father, and He did not seek that the Father should bring anything here into consonance with man. God was displayed in man’s circumstances. You cannot know Him in glory, you cannot enjoy Him there, if you have not learned Him in your own circumstances. If you do not know His sympathy in your own circumstances [p. 371] surely you cannot be in communion with Him, in His circumstances.
WB What is “we will .. . make our abode with him”? (chapter 14).
JBS The idea is He has a room in your heart. The word ‘abode’ is the same as ‘mansion’ in the early part of the chapter. We, as a rule, think most of His path down here; He was down here; but how was He sustained down here?
FHB We are called to go through the circumstances down here in the same power that the Lord went through them.
JBS When I am in a storm the natural wish of the heart is that the Lord would remove it. If I were in company with Him I should be as He was in the storm; He did not look for the removal of it.
Verses 1 and 2 are wonderful words. “Father, .. . glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee. As thou hast given him power over all flesh”, etc. He now takes the place of the last Adam. The first Adam gave names to the animals according to the special quality of each. He gave them nothing. He was a man of great ability to discern their qualities as they passed by him. He designated them. The name was descriptive of the quality. But the last Adam can say, “thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him”. He has all power in heaven and in earth, and His will is that those whom the Father has given Him should share in company with Himself. You cannot share with Him but in the circle where He is. “This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”. He gives it. “The last Adam a quickening spirit”.
DLH So we derive altogether from Him.
JBS Every one in Christ is a new creature. We all derive from Him. Christ the first fruits, then they that are His at His coming. We did come from Adam;
[p. 372] we come now from Christ. It is not only identity; we have His life where He lives. I have the life of Christ. I enjoy all that Christ is, but I am not all that Christ is. This verse shows I have a capacity to enjoy the Father and the Son. A little child in the company of his father hears and sees and in a degree enters into the things of his father, he has some of the tastes of his father, he is in a sense in communion there. We are often seeking something down here, instead of seeking to enter into and to enjoy the things of the Father.
FHB In connection with His giving it is important to remember how He gives: “not as the world giveth, give I unto you”. He shares all that He possesses.
JBS It is important to note the mode in which He imparts life. He breathed on them. He is a life-giving spirit. He shares with them of His own.
FHB And does not the mediatorial manner in which we get it come out in verse 21?
JBS We derive from Him; we are of His order. “Members of his body”. It is not anything of Adam improved and made suitable to Him; it is all new. Some think that the old thing can be reconstructed, but that is not Christianity. Dear Mr. Bellett used to say, ‘Sublimate the flesh as much as you will, beloved, it will never yield spirit’.
“I have glorified thee”. The work is finished, all is done. It is important to apprehend, and a great help in the gospel, that Christ finished the Father’s work, not merely the work for the sinner. Generally it is said the sinner has an interest in the gospel; no doubt he has, a very great interest; but the Father, blessed be His name, has an interest in the gospel. “I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do”. Everything that the Father desired for the sinner has been so done that the Father can kiss the returning prodigal. It is wonderful that all was finished for [p. 373] God before the sinner knew of it. All has been removed; all has been done to God’s infinite satisfaction, so that the reception of the prodigal is boundless. The nearer you are the better off you are.
Ques Was it not too to bring out all the Father was to the sinner?
JBS Until the work was finished God could not make known His heart to the sinner. Hence the gospel of the glory must be known before union with Christ is known. I do not say for the soul’s salvation. Many a one is saved who never yet had a taste of the gospel of the glory. Here (John 17) all is done, “I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do”. There is nothing to hinder everything of the Father coming out. The love flows out of the mighty volume of His own heart, and according to His own righteousness. No “live coal” now, as in Isaiah 6. He has not abated His holiness one bit. Now that the work is done He can fulfil all that He had purposed from eternity.
WB What is propitiation? (1 John 4).
JBS He had to make propitiation. Man was under the judgment of God; all under judgment must be removed in judgment. All has been removed in the cross.
JSA The entire question between God and man had to be settled, and then the Father’s heart could come out.
JBS That is the gospel of the glory. You find, as you approach the glory, instead of it repelling you, it invites you. In chapter 13 you have a Man glorifying God. In chapter 17 the Son glorifying the Father.
Verse 5: “now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”. He goes up to the essential glory. We do not share in that.
THR Still it is wonderful that a Man has gone up there.
[p. 374] JBS Yes, and that we belong to that Man.
Ques Is that the glory we shall behold?
JBS Yes, but not what we shall enter into.
Rem In doing the work for us He has obtained glory.
JBS He obtained glory because He glorified God in doing the work. He obtained glory in bearing our judgment, and the glory He thus obtained He shares with us.
THR Is it not wonderful that God has taken a Man up there, and is going to be displayed in that Man?
JBS Yes, it is. I often say the Bible is the history of two men - Adam and Christ. Which man do you belong to? It is uncommonly hard to get rid of the old man; only God can do it for us.
THR You were saying, No one can take down a stone out of the old building but God.
JBS You and I may try to get rid of ourselves, but God only can pull down or break the will. When you would like a stone to be taken down, God takes it down for you; but I do not think that He will remove it unless you desire it. “We which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake”. If you really feel anything a hindrance, God will take it away. “We which live”; mind He rolls in death on the living. It is the stone before the wheel; it is relief to you when removed.
Ques What produces the desire?
JBS Walking in the Spirit. The purpose of heart is to go on, and then the hindrance is discovered. Bearing about in my body the dying of Jesus is connected with 2 Corinthians 3. You are so transformed, so blessed, in beholding the glory of the Lord that you shrink from everything which interrupts you. You are glad to be dead, insensible to every distraction. You like to keep in the sun.
FHB What is the difference between manifesting the Father’s name, in verse 6, and declaring it, in the last verse?
JBS Manifesting is not the same thing as declaring. Declaring is rather explaining or teaching, the word ‘exegesis’ comes from it. Manifesting is presenting a thing whether seen or not. The Lord was manifested here, yet few saw Him. Manifesting is in chapter 14, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father”.
FHB Then the declaring His name is His ministry by the word.
JBS The word translated ‘declare’ at the end of our chapter is properly “make known”, and not the same word used in John 1: 18. The Holy Spirit brought to the remembrance of the disciples all that had been manifested.
Ques What is the force of “I kept them in thy name”?
JBS They were under a peculiar kind of protection; they did not comprehend it; they were under this divine control. I think we have but little idea of the effect of the Lord’s presence with the disciples on earth - His great moral influence.
DLH “To whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life”, and “Did not our heart burn within us?” would be an illustration of it?
JSA If they could not know the Father, except by the Spirit, why did the Lord say, “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?”
JBS It showed their dullness; they were qualified to say, “Our Father which art in heaven”, because they had seen Him in Christ; they did not enter into it, but they were entitled to it. He did not put words into their mouths that they were not entitled to use. Faith could use them then; if that prayer was suitable to them then it was not suitable to them when the Holy [p. 376] Spirit came.
DLH With regard to the mode of expression, “Our Father which art in heaven”, does not that same word characterise the mode of revelation which characterised the Lord on earth?
JBS Exactly so; we could not speak in the same way now. Luke does not say “in heaven”.
GG Does the expression “in heaven” give an idea of distance?
JBS Yes, it shows you are looking up to heaven as though you had no access to it. Literally speaking we know very little of the Father. I am surprised how little we turn to the Father - pray to Him. You feel more confidence in turning to the Lord who knows all about you; but “the Father”, when He is apprehended, carries you into a divine order of things; you know you are in another circle. I do not think I could ask the Father for a fine day.
Ques “My God shall supply all your need”?
JBS Yes, God loves us; He who spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? But the moment I say “Father” I feel I am His child belonging to His order of things. In chapter 16 praying to the Father in Christ’s name plants you in another order of things - Christ’s things.
THR His name carries you there into His own circle. I ask for things concerning Himself. The Father has set His Son up there in His own circle.
Ques How does prayer come into that?
JBS When you seek to be acquainted with the things belonging to Him. All things that the Father hath are mine.
THR He has gone to the Father, and that makes a new circle altogether, because the Son is gone to the Father. In His name you pray now; you are in a wholly new circle, and you are asking for those things that concern Him. You are not praying for the benefit of yourself down here.
[p. 377] JBS That explains clearly the force of the Lord’s words, “that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name he may give it you”. I ask for the church, for all that concerns Christ. It is a wonderful thing to be assured that in the place where He was rejected if you ask the Father in His name He will give it. You ask in the interests of Christ. Peter says, “Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ”, etc.. .. He has gone to the Father, and you rightly take His name here. Ever so small a thing, for instance, a meeting room, if you can ask for it for Christ, it shall be given to you.
AC Who is the Lord of the harvest?
JBS Christ, of course. I look to Him now as the Head of the church to send gifts according to His pleasure. I believe He has sent many gifts, but they are not all developed. There is a lot of “bearing” that hinders the gifts from development. If you lived in a coal district you would understand the word ‘bearing’. You must remove the bearing before you can get the coal. You must get rid of the hindrance to the gift before you can exercise it.
Ques Would you go to the Lord or to the Father about that?
JBS I think that gift is chiefly developed in the assembly. As to your service you should pray to the Lord. We should find out as we were near Him. A child soon finds out whether it should go to its father or its mother about a thing. I could not lay down a rule. You may change in a moment from the Father to the Lord.
Ques What of chapter 14: 13? “Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name that will I do”.
JBS That is connected with power for yourself. Stephen is an example that you can be brought up to Christ where He is. There can be no greater work than that you should be superior to yourself by divine power.
[p. 378] It is not service in John 14; it is preparation for service; it is individual. It is lying down in green pastures. It is preparation for service. Stephen is prepared; he is in power for the work; he is for Christ now. It is like walking on the water. Christ is above everything; and it is not now with you, your own circumstances, but Christ’s service; and you are so fitted, that you are able to rise above everything and stand for Him here in spite of everything.
GG “Full of the Holy Spirit”. We ought to be that.
Ques You often hear people address God in prayer as “God and Father”. Is that right?
JBS I like it. I think they ought to be connected. I am rather afraid of saying Father without God. I am afraid of losing the sense of His greatness. In history you read of a prince who addressed the king as “Sire” in the beginning of his letter, but ended it “your dutiful son”. You have both the dignity of the Person and the knowledge of relationship. You would not like to lose the sense of who He is.
DLH Ephesians begins with “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”, and in the two prayers (chapters 1 and 3) he divides them.
JBS The reverse of the order in John. John puts Father and God. Paul puts “God and Father”.
The way to learn to pray is in Luke 11. I know that I can come to Him. I have confidence in Him. I know that He has what I want; I have it not; and I cannot get it anywhere else. I must continue asking until I get it, for I have no other resource. That is the way you learn to pray.
Rem We must remember, too, we have the Spirit of His Son.
JBS There are two ways to pray: one way is, as a man on earth I make known all my requests to God. I may not get any answer at all, but I get much better, the peace of God which passeth all understanding.
[p. 379] The other way is, I am asking according to His will; I am asking for the Lord’s things. You do not know how the answer will come, but you know that it will come.
Ques How are we kept in the Father’s name?
JBS The Father has children. You are to come out in this world as of a new order, a new stock. “Sanctify them through thy truth. Thy word is truth”. A new constitution, a new order of being according to the counsels of God. “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”. There are two conditions in sanctification. The one is, you are a new kind of being in the old place according to His workmanship; the other is, that as Christ has left this place altogether, you are dissociated in heart from this place. You are in nature not of the man here; and positionally your heart is apart from it because Christ has gone away.
You get the principle in Philippians 3. The apostle says, I prefer Christ to everything in man; that I call constitutional; you are a new creation. But then also you are “forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth to those things which are before”; that I call positional.
ER The truth made good in us by the Spirit.
AH The truth of the Father. The truth, as worked out in us; it is progressive.
JBS You are a new creation, formed according to His own mind, naturally outside of this world, and positionally also outside of it. I said to Mr. D. when he was speaking of it, ‘Then sanctification is immeasurable’. ‘Yes’, he said, ‘it is immeasurable’. To be as much apart from this world as Christ is.
AH Did you not once say our present sanctification has all the elements of the future glory in it?
JBS We have now morally all that we shall have actually. All that belongs to heaven, all that we shall [p. 380] have by-and-by forms us for heaven now. Nothing has the same effect on the world as sanctification. There are two things which should mark the saints, unity and sanctification. The more truly we are sanctified the more are we in unity, the more are we one. The more you are sanctified the more weight you will have with others. They may sneer at you and refuse you, but yet they respect it, and are impressed. It reminds me of Isaac and Abimelech. Abimelech did not seem to think much of Isaac when he was in his country, but when he left his country he sought him out and honoured him. True separation from the world has the greatest effect on people. Years ago the comment was, ‘how uncommonly separated they are’. The testimony breaks down when we are not what we bear witness to.
AH What is the difference between the Father keeping us in His name and the Son having kept His disciples in the Father’s name?
JBS Christ was now going away unto the Father. While He was here He kept His own in the Father’s name. They learned the Father from the Son upon earth. Now He has gone to the Father, and you are brought to the Father in and by Him; and now you are directly kept by the Father, kept here as the children of the Father.
Ques Is the “and will declare it” in the last verse identical with the first?
JBS I think in the last verse He is carrying out what He referred to in the first - I have made known and will make known. Then follows “that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them”. That is the love that keeps you from the world. “If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him”. If I know the Father loves me, that I am the object of His love, it is wonderful the dignified separation from the world which it confers.
Ques. What is “I in them”
JBS We are never apart from Him. He is the source of everything to us. Your greatest gain is that He should dwell in your heart. His tastes and pleasure would then be yours. This is to “win Christ”. You get it in Ephesians 3, and in Colossians, “Christ in you, the hope of glory”.
AH Will you say a word on the three unities in the chapter?
JBS Verse 11 refers to the disciples alone; verse 21, “one in us”, that takes us all in. It is not so much unity as oneness. It is unity of mind, “perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment”. What a spectacle to the world the saints of God would be if all were of one mind! The Son had one mind with the Father. That is the pattern of the oneness. I believe this chapter will be fulfilled in the new Jerusalem - every one in his place; no dislocation. The nearer we are to the Lord the more unworldly we are. If you could find two brothers equally sanctified they would be exactly of the same mind. “Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind”. Many a thing a man does not understand because he is worldly. If he got out of the world he would understand it. Many a thing that is abstruse to him, if he were out of the world, he would see clearly. There will be no such thing as any difference of mind in heaven - all perfectly joined together in one mind, one judgment.
DLH ‘All the mind in heaven is one’.
JBS Exactly so.