THE SPIRIT’S SERVICE IN THE PRESENT RECOVERY

2 Timothy 2: 14–22; Jeremiah 15: 19–21;

Ezra 8: 24–27, 32–34; 2 Timothy 3: 1–5, 12–17; 4: 1–5

JDG We are pursuing the Spirit’s service in the dispensation. We have spoken about times that existed from the departure of Paul, as seen in John’s ministry, which goes through to the coming of Christ. So it still continues at the present time, the need for that kind of ministry. The Lord in His graciousness and the Spirit operated, you might say historically around about 1827, to bring about exercise in godly and pious men in relation to the state of affairs that existed, which at that time largely was the churches, what we call the established churches. There was Rome, there was the Anglican system and also other Presbyterian systems. But a good number of these persons who got light as to the truth were committed before that to go in for what they called ‘the ministry’ in a real sincere way to be available to the Lord to secure souls for Him. The Lord and the Spirit granted them light as to the need for what comes out in this scripture in 2 Timothy 2. The believer in the Lord Jesus does not require to go on with evil of an ecclesiastical or moral character. This was a remarkable ministry of Paul’s here, because there was light given, I believe, for the end of the dispensation. Otherwise, perhaps, believers would have been slow to take this step because they were breaking publicly the unity that existed early in the dispensation. But unity in the church publicly does not justify a believer staying in religious systems which have developed in the hands of men. There is an open door here, which the Spirit of God has provided, so that we can find our way out. Publicly we are still in Christendom, but morally we can find our way out to call on the name of the Lord out of a pure heart.

I read in Jeremiah because I think it helps to see how God had this principle before Him, even in the past dispensation—the delight it was to Him. At this time in Jeremiah’s history it was near the end of the kingdom of

Judah. The captivity to Babylon was just about to take place. But God is desirous of securing what He can. And He delights in persons who are taking forth the precious from the vile, “thou shalt be as my mouth”. He affords protection to them. They will be persecuted as we come to in 2 Timothy 3: 12, “And all indeed who desire to live piously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. But they become a brazen wall. There is a protection there. “I will make thee unto this people a strong brazen wall”. That is there is something morally in the character of the persons who separate the precious from the vile that can resist the intrusion of evil.

And then I read in Ezra to bring out, in type, the preciousness of the vessels, that is believers, who are delivered from the systems of men. You will note in the scriptures that these vessels are being returned from Babylon after the captivity. Babylon represents the ecclesiastical world, which has taken the people of God captive. Recovered vessels moved back from Babylon to Jerusalem represent persons being recovered to the truth of the assembly. One thing that is important is their weight. Persons who return from the captivity, God delights to have them weighed. They are taken care of in the journey and weighed when they get to Jerusalem. Divine delight is in them. These two vessels of shining copper are precious as gold. All these vessels represent features of Christ in the saints—the gold and the silver—divine righteousness and the truth of redemption. The two vessels of shining copper would be persons who have come the moral way, which we will speak about, to return to the truth of the assembly typified in Jerusalem.

Then in 2 Timothy 3 it seems to me that the persons who have been separated, purged from what is around, have to maintain themselves in the face of further declension. And that is our time—the last days. A further declension even, from things that took place when the truth of the assembly was recovered about 1827, is described in these verses, “having a form of piety but denying the power of it”. And then Paul’s word, as I mentioned already, “And all indeed who desire to live piously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Paul states that the sacred letters, that is the Scriptures, “are able to make thee wise unto salvation”. There was further declension in chapter 4. “Be urgent in season and out of season” that was when Paul was writing. “For the time shall be when they will not bear sound teaching”, that is our day. So you continue to do the work of an evangelist, and Timothy personally was to fill up the full measure of his ministry. Things are not going to fade away. There are vessels in whom the Spirit is going to display something of a glory that was not before. We live in a time, dear brethren, which is expressed in chapter 3 particularly. You have nothing to do with the system that is described in the first five verses of chapter 3. You purge yourself from the ecclesiastical Christendom in chapter 2, but in chapter 3 the believer should have nothing to do with it. The evil is so rampant in it. But he finds he is tested then to maintain the truth in dignity, in the light to which we have been recovered.

JAG Keeping His word and not denying His name would be characteristic, or should be characteristic of persons who have separated themselves, and call upon the Lord out of a pure heart “and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace”, would you say?

JDG I was going to remark that the brethren who came out of the systems of men about 1827 had very deep exercise before they moved. They did not just read the scripture and say, ‘Oh I should break bread on Lord’s day morning’. They did not do that. They had real concerns before the Lord as to making this move, as to whether the Lord would support them in it. We have come into what has been established, and we have come into the fact that the truth has been unfolded to us through these faithful men who have gone before. But we are tested as to maintaining it.

JAG We often say that there are believers and believers. We have to leave it with the Lord, and if persons are not going to purify themselves, not going to separate themselves, then we have to separate from them.

JDG That is right. So another question came up once persons had broken bread together in accordance with the light they had from this scripture, if evil came in amongst them they had to judge it. According to 1 Corinthians 5, you remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves. Then in this scripture you withdraw. There was debate about that amongst brethren but the thing was to deal with the evil; it was said at one point that both scriptures apply. But the real matter is that if evil arises amongst us we have to deal with it. Grace would be there but you have to deal with the evil, because you have to act on this scripture, “purified himself from these”.

DBR Do you think the teaching of the cross would underlie the depth of exercise that is needed to face these matters?

JDG You say more about the teaching of the cross.

DBR Well, I just thought that God’s standard was established in the teaching of the cross, but God could not go on with evil. It had to be judged and judged unsparingly. Of course that involves a measure that we could never imitate, but nevertheless we should be affected by it do you think?

JDG That is right. He could not pass it by. His love could not allow Him to pass it by, nor His righteousness could allow Him to pass it by. He faced it in One who was precious to Him—in His Son, “Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath”, 1 Thessalonians 1: 10. God judged that judgment in His Son, so we escape from the wrath by coming to Christ. God will deal with that if man refuses it. So that this scripture enlightens us to see that for our day it is not necessary to go along with evil, morally or ecclesiastically, to maintain public unity. A believer, of a necessity as understanding this scripture, must move in accordance with divine holiness and divine righteousness. Is that what you had in mind?

JMcK So the assembly is said to be clothed in fine linen, which is the righteousnesses of the saints. That is the great result of this is it?

JDG Yes, that is right. One of the acts of righteousness is purifying themselves from these, separating themselves from

them. That is one of the acts of righteousness that heaven takes account of in Jeremiah, separating the precious from the vile; there is what is precious to God in the systems of men that is still there. Thank God that we have been helped to move, and been instructed in it. We have come into something, most of us, that was established before our day, but we have to come to the moral understanding of it as part of the moral road. We have to travel from Babylon to Jerusalem to use the type.

NJH The first thing is that the person who separates is a vessel to honour. That is by the One, the Master who had the direct application of the fire at the cross. Is that right?

JDG That is right. The Master who had the direct application of the fire is the Lord. “Names the name of the Lord”, it has to be in accord with that Name. But he moves. So every vessel that belongs to Christ is a precious vessel. We feel for many of our brethren who are trapped, you might say, in the systems of men. All they are doing is tormenting their righteous soul, like Lot, day after day, on account of the evil that is there. But there is a way out and we have found that way out. God takes account of the value of persons who are seeking to help one another to separate the precious from the vile.

GAB The believer has to attend to himself if he is going to be serviceable to the Master. It says, “purified himself from these”. Would not the implication be that if he does not make that move then he becomes partaker of what he is associated with?

JDG Yes, that is right. If you stay amongst them you are contaminated with the evil that is there. You are morally contaminated there. You are in fellowship with them. But “in separating himself from them, he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master”, and that is the great objective. It is not just an ecclesiastical position but it is a place where the service of God can take place. That is the great acme of the fellowship that we have together in the Lord’s supper and in the service of God; to be able to function in a spiritual way apart from liturgy.

JAB Could say more then about what is not just positional? Some young people here might say, Well these men of the nineteenth century made their stand, and we have come into the benefit of that, and we are in fellowship with what is right. But this is more than positional. Say more about what you mean by that.

JDG Well, they took a stand in celebrating the Lord’s supper apart from the church and the clergy, celebrating it together as we do now. They were not setting up another sect or another church, but were operating in accordance with the truth, considering for the Lord’s rights. Paul says, “in the way which they call sect” (Acts 24: 14), but we do not take sectarian ground. Publicly we may be known as that but we do not take sectarian ground. Positional would mean that I am just nominal. I am amongst the brethren because I was brought up amongst the brethren; my parents were, and I have accepted the Lord as my Saviour. I have not always had a full understanding of why I am where I am. However, I am here, now, not just because I have been brought up in fellowship, but because I have arrived, by the Spirit’s help in my soul, that I must act according to the light given in the scripture in 2 Timothy 2: 19–22. I am breaking bread with you and others here, having in view the service of God, and the fellowship of the Lord’s supper. “If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another” (1 John 1: 7), so I have to maintain the standard personally or it just becomes nominal, such as belonging to Plymouth Brethren, for example.

RG Are these vessels that are “to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master, prepared for every good work”, persons who are now morally suited to be filled by the Holy Spirit, and therefore, serviceable to the Master?

JDG Yes, I think a person who becomes a Christian, who knows the forgiveness of sins, and who becomes exercised, because he is concerned about the Lord’s rights, is one who has received the Spirit. That is what is in your mind.

RG Yes. I have just been thinking about what we have been saying about what is positional. This is far far outside what is positional publicly is it not? This is a moral process that has proceeded, and the Spirit then can fill the emptied vessel, you might say, so that it is full to be serviceable to the Master. Is that right?

JDG Yes. The Spirit of God is in the matter. We spoke already that it is in the divine plan that the dispensation has continued until now. That is not an afterthought. The divine plan that the Spirit has in mind, in the situation that exists publicly in the world, with Christendom with all its branches, and other religions, and paganism that still exists, is to separate vessels to honour in order to be morally apart. We cannot get out of the great house, which is a description of the systems of Christendom. But you can separate morally and that is what we have sought to do in order to be persons who are righteous and maintain righteousness. “Pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart”. Now how do I know, how do you know, that I have a pure heart? What do you say?

RT This seems to establish naming the name of the Lord. Does that involve the matter of holiness? So if the name of the Lord cannot be attached to the circumstances, I have to make myself clear of them.

JDG Yes, there is righteousness—it says “righteousness, faith, love, peace”, but I think holiness is an essential matter. “Be ye holy, for I am holy” (1 Peter 1: 16), God says. He is no respecter of persons, so holiness attaches to the name of the Lord Jesus and to the name of God, does it not? So we could not attach to that blessed Name or to that blessed Person, anything that was evil or sinful or unholy. Holiness is a practical matter is it not? Would you say so?

RT It is a fruit of love is it not? What we had in the last reading, I think, underlies all this. It is love operating. Love is operating here, is it not, in order that love may be enjoyed unhindered?

JDG That is good. It is the fruit of love considering for the reverence of God, respectful of the divine Name. It is a divine attribute, holiness, so we could never associate Himself or His name with what is unholy.

EJM Is Matthew 25 really an appeal of the Spirit? “Behold, the bridegroom; go forth to meet him” (Matthew 25: 6).

JDG Yes, say a little more please.

EJM I was just thinking the yearning is really what is answering to Christ do you think?

JDG Yes, the persons that go forth to meet Him had to have their lamps trimmed and oil in their vessels, which is in line with what we are speaking about. Vessels to honour would have oil in their vessels. They would be sensitive to the fact that the Holy Spirit was indwelling them, and was exercising them in regard to holiness, and what was suitable for the divine presence.

JM Here it says that, “Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity”. That is our responsibility is it not? Could you say something about that—withdrawing from iniquity?

JDG Well, what you have mentioned recalls to my mind of a sister who married a brother and they came into fellowship. She could not understand what it was to withdraw from iniquity, because in the church in which she had been there were very many precious souls who belonged to Christ, just as precious as she was, and just as earnest as she was in the light they had. But then she said, I had to learn that it was the system that I was attached to that was iniquitous. And that is the clerical system is it not?

JM I think it is necessary to say that. The clerical system is marked by that.

Therefore, anyone, in whatever state of soul he or she may be, who is there, is actually connected with that system. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us that we must withdraw from such. I think that needs to be stated, because I think some are a little bit confused about it.

JDG Yes. The weakness in persons comes out if they go out of fellowship to go back to that. It shows that they never really had a judgment of what the clergy is. ‘The Notion of a Clergyman Dispensationally the Sin Against The Holy Ghost’ was written by Mr. J. N. Darby (‘Collected Writings’ Vol. 1, p.36). The simplicity of it means the Spirit was not free in the system. A believer being personally there according to the light he has, the Lord might help him. But the Spirit of God is shut out of that system.

Whereas, when you come to “those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart”, all are functioning. That is what we started with.

JM Mr. J. N. Darby illustrated that when he was going through the exercise. He said, if Paul had come along he would not have been allowed to preach because he had not been ordained. So the Spirit really is shut completely out of that system is it not? Therefore, we must judge it from that point of view.

JDG It is not to say that the Lord may not bless a soul individually through a word that may be given, we could not say that, but it is to bring forward that the system itself, its iniquity lies in the denial of the liberty of the Spirit functioning in persons. Every person secured by the Lord who has the Holy Spirit should function in the assembly.

JAG You cannot function in that system. Iniquity is not in the air—it is expressed through those who contribute to the system.

JDG That is right. It is good to be clear about that. We should understand, why we are where we are. Young people will come into the intelligence of it, if they set themselves to grasp something of what we are speaking about this afternoon.

JAG If persons who have purported to call upon the Lord out of a pure heart have gone out of fellowship and formed links with that system—such a course is iniquitous.

JDG But those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart, that would be displayed in their life and their style of life and their practice and their associations? So we take account of persons and their associations.

RT “Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life”, Revelation 22: 14.

JDG Yes, go on and say more.

RT Garments come up very often as showing our character and our circumstances, do they not? “Blessed are they that wash their robes”, they have a right to the tree of life. You are getting clear so that you can be in the enjoyment of divine love.

JDG Yes, so it says, “that they should go in by the gates into the city”. That is Revelation 22: 14 that we are speaking about, “Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city.” That is the holy city down here is it not? It is not the holy city in the millennial day.

RT It says, “Without are the dogs”. That is people that just feed on themselves and feed on what is evil and that kind of thing, but washing your robes brings you into an area where divine love is enjoyed.

JDG Yes. You do that by departing from iniquity. You actually have to move. It is a moral thought but it is practical.

DBR Does this really open out the true ground of unity? You have spoken about persons who may have stayed in places to preserve a kind of formal unity, but is this the true ground of unity?

JDG Yes, that is right.

JAG I was just going to say that the gate is to maintain the standard and that is in the local meetings.

JDG That is right. It is the true ground of unity. ‘Separation From Evil God’s Principle of Unity’ is the true ground of unity (J. N. Darby ‘Collected Writings’, Vol. 1, p.353).

‘Grace, the Power of Unity and of Gathering’ (J. N. Darby, ‘Collected Writings’, Vol. 1, p.366).

JDG Grace, the power of unity and of gathering. Well, you can see that that is right. Grace operates in a holy environment does it not?

JAG So we “pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart” and in verse 24 you are coming upon “bondman of the Lord” which is the background to what we had this morning.

JDG Yes, I am sure it is the background to it—bondman of the Lord. Jeremiah, interestingly, just amplifies what we are speaking about. It brings out that God has not changed His standards at all. At this time Judah was going on with its idols and its ways but God says, Well there may be something precious in there. He says, “If thou return, then will I bring thee again, thou shalt stand before me; and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth”.

And then He says, “Let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them”. You cannot go back. Once you have separated from persons on account of the truth it is a sober matter, not a casual matter.

JAG It is akin to apostasy to go back.

JDG Well, how can you go back to these systems that you have left? How can you go back to what you have left? You cannot go back. You will help persons by saying “Let them return unto thee”, that is not because of us personally, it is because of the divine standard, and the dignity in which we hold the fellowship of God’s Son and walk in it.

GCMcK Jeremiah went through very very deep exercise in this chapter did he not? You were speaking about the exercise of those who moved about 1827. He even began to challenge God. “Wilt thou be altogether unto me as a treacherous spring, as waters that fail?”, Jeremiah 15: 18. He went through very deep exercise but this set him in a right track, on a right path. Is that what these men did, like Mr. Darby about 1827? They were set in a right path that God would support them in.

JDG Yes, and they were led step by step. They went step by step there. Their dependence on the Lord was there. So we have come into things, and we break bread together as a company of believers and we understand the truth, we understand something of what has come out in the ministries of the recovery as to the dignity of the assembly that we have, and what is comely to it in the way of departing from evil, washing our garments. That means we are free from associations, whatever nature they are, and we seek to maintain that. God takes delight in that.

RG In practical terms does it mean that tomorrow morning when we come to the Supper and greet one another, as we do, we are greeting persons who have come this moral road, filled with the Spirit, and waiting for the Lord to make Himself known to us?

JDG That is right.

RG I am saying that because there are a lot of young people here, and we might go away thinking, Well this is for persons that are not here yet. But the practical side of this is, that this is for every one that will break bread tomorrow morning in our various places. Is that right?

JDG You have to maintain the truth every day. If you do not maintain the truth of Scripture and what is in accord with the divine Name, in accord with one who suits the divine presence, you would just be nominal. You would just be there by name. We want to be there in exercise. So if we have moved out morally from amongst what is ecclesiastical error and clericalism, we have to maintain ourselves now in holiness. “Pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart”. We have to maintain that in holiness. You cannot return to these matters. Even amongst brethren where there has been sorrowfully division, you cannot go back. It is not a nominal matter. There are not any issues that I have been involved in, and the brethren here, which were nominal. It was a real sober exercise and it was sorrow to depart from brethren.

JM We have to be alert as to the way in which the enemy moves, you referred to what Mr. J. N. Darby and others went through, and it was not very long after that when the enemy sought to do the same thing only do it in another way. The truth had to be maintained and it must be maintained today, tomorrow and each day that we are here, do you not think?

JDG Yes.

JAG We need to be careful about the principles of Bethesda. We need to think about that in every local meeting I think.

JDG You will have to clarify what you mean by the principles of Bethesda.

JAG Well, our brother was speaking about Plymouth and what went on there. They were quite prepared, in Bethesda Chapel, to take neutral ground. They would not pass a judgment on Plymouth, but if persons from Plymouth, where evil was allowed, came to Bethesda and said they agreed with what Bethesda agreed with, Bethesda brethren would break bread with them. By and large I think that is what happened is it not? There was neutrality as to the person of Christ.

JDG So what you are pointing out is that a person who is in fellowship with others who are going on with evil, and says personally they are clear as to the thing, they are still involved because they are practically breaking bread with them.

JM Even though that person may claim to be personally clear of it, if they are actually connected with a company that is going on with it you cannot go on with that.

JDG That is right. “Let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them”.

DBR Two false principles involved at that time were neutrality and tolerance. Tolerance is a baneful thing. There is no holiness in tolerance. If you begin to operate that way you begin to tolerate more and more things all the time.

JDG I am glad you use that word ‘tolerance’ because neutrality is one thing, but tolerance might be regarded as grace. But it is not grace if it is going on with unholiness.

GCMcK It says, “thou shalt be as my mouth”.

JDG What do you make of that?

GCMcK Well, it says, “and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth”. Through the exercises of about 1827 there came out a ministry that was authoritative, it was from the Lord. That guides us, you might say, in a definite way. Mr. Darby’s ministry is something of that character, is it not?

JDG Yes, it is. It is what is accredited is it not? God has put His approval on it. That is most important, because young believers should be careful what they read. Even ecclesiastical books that may seem all right on the surface may contain wrong teaching of which the author was ignorant.

RT What is the brazen wall that you were speaking about?

JDG It says, “And I will make thee unto this people a strong brazen wall”. That is there is something worked out in the believer that has come through the fire. It is in accord with divine judgment and will resist a return to evil. What do you say?

RT So are we looking for that today, to be continuing through the dispensation?

Something that has been set up as a strong wall, there is something there where divine life, divine love can be enjoyed.

JDG That is right. It is good to see that. It is not just a brazen wall where you would resist evil but it is to protect what is within, is it not? All that we are speaking about right now is not just for the sake of position, but to protect an area where eternal life can be known, and where the service of God can be enjoyed.

JAB So would you say that the scripture read in Ezra shows that the absolutely necessary exercises that you have been going over are a means to an end? They are not an end in themselves, but they have in view the service of God and what is precious to God, is that right?

JDG That is absolutely right.

JAB Some of the young people here might say, Well what we have been speaking about sounds a bit negative to me. But it is an absolutely vital means to the service of God being maintained in life and power and preciousness, is that right?

JDG That is what I thought. In Ezra you come to God’s assessment of persons who are prepared to go back from Babylon to Jerusalem. These Israelites at that time had been captive for seventy years under divine judgment, but the word had gone out to return; God had given it, through the Persian King Cyrus. Not all went back but some went back and here is a group of persons going back. And you can see if you read the passage how dependent they were on God’s support on the way. But the vessels are really the persons. They represent persons who are exercised to return from the captivity of Babylon to Jerusalem, which is a figure of what we have been speaking about. It is in view of being weighed in the house of God.

JAG Your exercise then is of these persons that there is quality.

JDG Quality. Yes, I am glad you bring that in, because it was in my mind that the Spirit of God is prepared to help in separating the precious from the vile, to bring the precious into an area where the quality can be assessed by divine Persons.

RGr Do you have more to say about the matter of recovery? You touched on it in your address last night, and here we have persons who are recovered and there is value added.

What would you say about that?

JDG Well, that was in my mind in reading this. I was attracted also to the two copper vessels, “shining copper, precious as gold”. I think that is vessels who have been through the exercise of what we have been speaking about; having judged what was in Babylon, and are in accordance with divine judgment as to holiness and righteousness. There is something that shines in the person that is as precious as gold. It is a moral feature and it underlies spirituality.

RGr Do you think that the shining implies the ornamental work which is a sign of the work of the Spirit?

JDG Yes, I am glad of that remark. The shining I think is the ornamental work of the Spirit, it is ornamental in the sense that it is bringing out the lustre of a glory that relates to the believer as subject to the Lord.

RG What would you say about them waiting until they come to Jerusalem before they are weighed?

JDG I just thought that they were brought back and were serviceable in the house of God. I think you get the weight in the service of God. I think spiritual weight comes out. You are really being weighed in the service of God for the pleasure of God. There is a very intimate matter there that you can assess and rejoice in, what has been wrought by the Spirit in the soul of a believer.

RG Would it be according to the shekel of the sanctuary, which belongs to Jerusalem so that you have God’s valuation of them?

JDG Yes, God’s valuation. When they are weighed in the house of God that is a very fine touch. We rejoice to be together to celebrate the Lord’s supper and the service of God, because you really begin to appreciate the work of God shining out now, in an environment of holiness and righteousness and apart from what belongs to nature altogether.

JAG That is really the assembly shining—her shining. It is like a precious stone.

JDG Yes, her shining like a precious stone is brought out in the millennial glory, is it not? It is the environment in which she shines, but there is a shining in the realm of privilege too, is there not?

JAG Yes indeed.

GAB Paul says, “let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup”, 1 Corinthians 11: 28. When we come together that is when the Lord would assess what our condition or state is.

JDG Yes, you mean when the brethren come in on Lord’s day morning, you are viewing them as vessels of shining copper, precious as gold. They have been through the wilderness week, they have kept themselves and proved themselves, and we accept one another on that basis.

GAB The Authorised Version says, “let a man examine himself’, which would be a self-examination, but “prove himself’ means that I must be able to be weighed in the divine balance.

JDG That is very good because it means that as you gather for the Lord’s supper, you do not come casually, but as a person who says, I have sought to be true to the Lord in the past week, I have sought to be true to the confession of His name in whatever environment I have been in, I have been before the Lord if I have had to be adjusted in regard to anything in my pathway, and now I am free. He can present himself before the Lord, like in the house of our God, and be acceptable.

DJW Why is it copper?

JDG You tell us.

DJW Does it relate to the brazen altar? Does it have some connection to the fellowship of His death do you think?

JDG I thought that. I thought there was what we have been speaking about vessels in accord with divine judgment. What God has judged in the death of Christ, in accord with that. What would you say?

DJW Well it is quite an exercise, and it has been said to me, Well if you separate from persons you are really looking down on these people. But it is far from that, is it not? It is having the divine judgment. It seems to me that persons find it difficult to grasp that certain persons would be so connected with iniquity, even though they may be morally upright and pious in their own life, and yet there is what the Lord is about to spue out of His mouth. Can you help us please on that?

JDG Well, the Lord does not spue any true believer out of His mouth, no matter where he is. If there is a true believer in this world that belongs to Christ He will take him at the rapture. The person will be saved, although all their works may be destroyed. Persons may think you are thinking high of yourself to separate from other believers. You are doing it, not because of them personally, but because of what they are associated with. Scripture affirms that if you are exercised to name the name of the Lord, and things where you may be are not in accord with it, you cannot abide there, righteously or with a good conscience.

JTB(Ed) It says, “precious as gold.” Is there a moral equivalence in the copper with the standard of divine righteousness in the gold, do you think?

JDG That is what I thought.

JTB (Ed) These exercises to which you have been referring would produce the copper, the shining copper, but they are simply commensurate with the outshining of divine righteousness in the gold. Is that right?

JDG Yes, the gold and the silver and the copper all relate to features of the work of the Spirit in the believer, do they not? So divine righteousness and the appreciation of redemption, and the exercises associated with the wilderness way, all come together to enhance the service of God as we participate in it.

JTB(Ed) In Nehemiah it was a seed of Israel that separated themselves from foreigners, as if there is a continuing line according to the divine generations, do you think?

JDG That is very good.

HP In 1 Thessalonians, it speaks of the Lord coming, it says, “caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air”, 1 Thessalonians 4: 17. I wondered if there would be a close connection to the Supper?

JDG Yes. You may have heard that Mr. Stoney is reported to have said he was going to meet the Son of God when he was on his way to the Supper. So he was going to meet the Lord. You want to be in the same state to meet the Lord, as coming together for the celebration of the Supper, as if He translated you, would you not?

HP I wondered if our hearts are ready for the Lord at the Supper, as you said.

JDG That is right. It is in regard to the Lord. We name the name of the Lord. It is that Person that is precious to you. So whatever others think, you do it. So it says in 2 Timothy 3: 12, “And all indeed who desire to live piously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. So you will suffer reproach, and you will suffer misunderstanding, but you have to bear all that on account of faithfulness to the Lord. Is that right?

DBR I wondered if you could say a little more about the earlier part of chapter 3, and how that bears on what the enemy, what Satan is bringing in in our own day. Did you have something in mind about that?

JDG I thought that things have deteriorated, and features of evil which marked paganism are now being allowed in some churches, to which Christ’s name is attached. You have to turn away from that (2 Timothy 3: 5). There is no believer, who is in the light of the scripture, who should ever continue with what is happening now. It is an increase in evil since the days when Mr. Darby and others separated from the churches.

DBR You could really say it is profane for men to cohabit, the more so if they are functioning in ministry to which Christ’s name is attached.

JDG Yes, so scripture says, “from these turn away”.

JM If you view Christendom as it is at the present time, you might have to say that the enemy, Satan, has a hold there, a tremendous hold, and that should make it quite clear to any real believer, that he can have absolutely no part with that whatsoever.

JDG Yes, that is what I think. That is why I think this section in chapter 3, the first five verses, makes it mandatory for a believer to leave immediately.

JM What is going on derives from Satan. The Lord has no place there. I am not saying that there are not believers there, but if you take the system, you just have to judge that the Lord has absolutely no place there, and therefore we just have to leave it.

JDG Yes, because these features (2 Timothy 3: 1–5), are very similar to those described in the beginning of the epistle to the Romans, as characterising heathen life, but are now reproduced under Christianity, covering itself with that name, and now having a form of godliness.

WLJr In these last days, “The latter glory of this house shall be greater than the former”, Haggai 2: 9. It is wonderful to think of, and it is in the midst of this darkness that “The latter glory of this house shall be greater than the former”.

JDG Yes, that is taking forth the precious from the vile. There is a place, where the precious can be, that is pleasing to the Lord. We have to accept that we may be misunderstood, even amongst our families who have departed from the truth; persecution could arise from that area. They despise you because you are walking in a pathway that they do not regard. But we regard it. So you are identified with the Lord’s name in the place of reproach.

JAG Coming together in assembly to celebrate the Lord’s supper is a very dignified matter is it not?

JDG Yes, it is. Coming together in assembly, you are in full accord with what that vessel is, set out in its pristine glory

in Paul’s ministry, as we spoke about it yesterday.

JAG It links on with what was said about the rapture.

JDG You cannot have Ephesus publicly now, but you can have the joy of calling on the name of the Lord out of a pure heart with others and enjoy the Lord’s presence.

CKR In the light of what we have been focusing on in the reading, the Holy Spirit would be committed to it in a full way would you say?

JDG Well, I think the Spirit’s operations at the present time are to secure vessels to honour according to this scripture (2 Timothy 2: 19–22), in view of filling out the service of God according to Paul’s ministry. However, there are believers who do not have the light of the assembly as we understand it, who are true and precious believers suffering for the name of the Lord Jesus publicly, and in some parts of the world being persecuted too. That is another matter. But those who are in the light of the assembly are to be guided by the scriptures as set out in 2 Timothy.

RT It says, “I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty”, 2 Corinthians 6: 18. We may think that we are exposed through all these exercises but we are brought into a system of great protection are we not?

JDG Yes, so practically where it involves our employment, we have known through the experiences of brethren, how the Lord has come in for them to maintain them, and yet be true to His name.

RT Persons have lost families and everything, but they have come into an area where they enjoy the Father and all the resources of His love.

JDG That is good.

PAG It says in Leviticus, “Holy shall ye be, for I Jehovah your God am holy” (Leviticus 19: 1), and these matters of which we have spoken are gone over in some detail in Leviticus 19 and 20, but it says at the end of chapter 20, “And ye shall be holy unto me” (Leviticus 20: 26). Do you think the fact that “ye shall be holy unto me” would be a great lever in our souls as to what we have been speaking of?

JDG Yes, I think it is. It is a Person. It is not just a doctrine, although that is important, but it is a Person that you are coming out to. You name the name of the Lord, you are coming out to where He is, “there am I in the midst of them”. A Person that is precious to you.

RH Mr. Stoney used to speak of Satan’s objective to get at the top shoot. If he were to gain his ends would it be true that God would be robbed? Is that his objective?

JDG Yes, that would be right. Stop the growth and stop the life. Life is to continue.

JMcK You have been promoting deep exercise as to what our activity is and our exercise is. Alongside of that goes divine working does it not? The idea of divine making runs along with what may result from exercise on our part. I will make you a brazen wall, and then the vessels that are divinely produced and divinely polished. God’s hand needs to be discerned alongside our exercise does it?

JDG Yes, I think the Spirit of God has an objective at the present time, in the midst of all the conditions that we have been speaking about to have a people apart, rejoicing in the living character of what comes from God as attached to Christ.

Fourth reading at Aberdeen, Scotland
15 August 2009

KEY TO INITIALS

G. A. Brown

J. D. Gray

J. Mitchell

J. A. Brown

N. J. Henry

H. Pfeiffer

J. T. Brown (Ed)

R. Hodge

D. B. Robertson

J. A. Gardiner

G. C. McKay

C. K. Robinson

R. Gardiner

J. McKay

J. Strachan

P. A. Gray

W. Lovie Jr.

R. Taylor

R. Gray

E. J. Mair

D. J. Willetts