THE ASCENDED MAN AND HIS ASSEMBLY
I thought we might find encouragement in considering the Scripture we have just read. We need to take account of the setting of Scripture. I think the Epistle to the Ephesians has its own peculiar character. In this epistle we find ourselves in the presence of perhaps the largest scope of divine things found in any epistle in the New Testament, both with regard to Christ personally and with regard to the Assembly—the church, His body. While the heavenly side of things is prominent and emphasised in the beginning of the epistle, the scope of it cannot be limited even to heaven. Nothing less than the universe is in view in it, and I believe it is a matter of great moment that we should be able in some measure to take account of the largeness of it. I have no doubt we all suffer more or less from smallness. If we take sober account of ourselves in the presence of God, we are obliged to admit that we are very small. We never can become great in ourselves. The only possible way of becoming in any sense great is to be occupied with God’s great things.
Our time would not permit us to go into much detail with regard to the body of the epistle, but we can readily see that we find ourselves in the very opening of it in the presence of the counsels or purposes of God. Indeed, so far as the saints are concerned, the highest note is struck. “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ”. And this is according to His choosing, or His choice of us—“according as he has chosen us in him before the world’s foundation … having marked us out beforehand”—for sonship (or adoption). Our King James Version has wrongly put “the adoption of children”, and in this way the current doctrine in Christendom is that we are children of God by adoption. But this is not the truth. If we are children of God, we are so by virtue of having been begotten or born of God. What we get in the original is, “having marked us out beforehand for adoption”—adoption and sonship represent one and the same word in the Greek.
As to our Lord Jesus Christ, this epistle views Him distinctly as Man. I do not think you could find one single statement in it that speaks of Him as a divine Person. He is a divine Person. He is always and everywhere a divine Person, but Ephesians views Him distinctively as Man. The first sight of it will speak to us as to this in a very simple way—He is viewed as having been dead. We are not told about His death or the manner of it; but as having been dead, He is raised up and seated in the heavenlies, and in connection with His being raised up and seated we have the most wonderful expression of the power of God to be found in Scripture. It far exceeds creation—it is the climax of the power of God. He is raised up and He is seated, and the Spirit of God labours to set forth the greatness of His exaltation. In the end of chapter 1 we get—“and what the surpassing greatness of his power ... above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come”. Marvellous statement! Then, with the Lord looked at in this wonderful place of supreme exaltation, we have the church—the assembly—brought in. “And has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”. You only get a right thought of the assembly as His body as you connect the assembly with Himself in His place of exaltation as Man.
Ques. Is not that necessary in connection with what was suggested at the beginning—that the epistle takes in the universe?
J.P. Yes. It says in the next chapter, “above all the heavens, that he might fill all things”. But here it is the wonderful position of the assembly in relation to Him as thus raised and seated in the heavenlies in Him, as this Scripture describes.
Ques. Is the assembly viewed here on the privilege side?
J.P. Surely; the force of the word “fulness” is ‘complement’, just as Eve was the complement of Adam, and was adequate to set forth all that marked and characterised Adam in the place which God had put him, so the assembly is the fulness of Him that fills all in all and is viewed as adequate to set forth all that characterises Him. I think we do well to take note of what the Spirit of God sets before us in this epistle. It is just what God has in view in the administration of the fulness of times, when He is going to head up all things in the Christ, both in heaven and upon the earth. God has in view the marvellous display that will characterise His universe at that time. I think it is so important that we should have these things distinctly before us. The tendency amongst us is to drop down to something more contracted than what God has before Him.
Ques. What comes out in the assembly now?
J.P. This epistle is not much occupied with that; it is more occupied with what is to come out in the assembly by-and-by. So, if we are quickened together and raised up together, and made to sit down together in the heavenlies, what is in view? “That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness towards us in Christ Jesus”. I think that Colossians 2: 7 gives us more what is to come out in the saints now, not in the way of testimony exactly, but what is to come out in the saints now for the satisfaction of the heart of God.
But the verses we have read in Ephesians 4: 7-16 are very largely connected with what is present. There will not be any need for gifts by-and-by; it is here and now that we need the gifts, and that we ought to be affected by the gifts; but it is all in view of what is coming. What I mean is that it is so important that our souls should come into the largeness of this epistle. We often go in for present results, and rightly, in a way, and the Lord, of course, helps us on every line that it is possible for Him to help us on, but we do not go in much for the largeness of what God has in view.
Ques. Do you mean we are qualifying now for the future?
J.P. Exactly. That is what makes the present so important. The tendency is always to drop down to ourselves. See the defective gospel that is preached. Why? Because it only regards the need of man. And we do not get over this tendency easily; it hangs on us many a day. Even as to truth in regard to the assembly, we take it up too much in regard to ourselves. That is the dead fly in the apothecary’s pot of ointment which hinders.
Ques. Why do you say that Christ in this epistle is presented as Man?
J.P. Well, the first thing is to be sure that it is a fact. Then look to the Lord, and He will give you understanding of the fact. I do not want you to take it because we say so, and if you look to Him, I think you will find that it is so, that this epistle presents Christ pre-eminently as Man, and that in the largest way known even to Scripture.
Rem. Looking at Him as a divine Person, there is no need for a helpmeet.
J.P. Of course not.
Rem. It is in regard to Him as Man that the position of the assembly is marked out.
J.P. It is. As a beloved servant of the Lord (now with Him) remarked a few years ago, there is a great deal of confusion in the minds of many of the saints between union with Christ looked at distinctively as Man and association with Him (the same Person), but looked at as Son of God.
Ques. Which do you get in this epistle?
J.P. You get a bit of both. You get sonship in this epistle as well as the truth of union with Christ, and you get the bride. But still there is distinction.
Ques. Is sonship communion with the Son of God?
J.P. Sonship is association with the Son of God. We shall be His companions in heavenly glory. There are two things (I do not mean separate, but distinct), there is the bride, the Lamb’s wife—that is the assembly; but then there is the assembly of the firstborn ones—“that he might be the firstborn among many brethren”.
Well, to come to the verses we have read, the first point is—Christ is seen as having ascended. There is a certain difference between the way the Spirit of God speaks of Him in chapter 1 and in chapter 4. It is, as the Spirit tells us in chapter 1, the surpassing greatness of God’s power that raises Him, and then, being raised, He is seated. God sets Him down at His right hand in the heavenlies. But in chapter 4 He has ascended. If God makes a distinction, you may depend upon it there is a difference, and there is spiritual profit in being able to take account of it. The language and the manner of it employed in the epistle almost touches the Gospel of John. We all know that what is peculiar to John is that His death is presented as “commandment” on the part of the Father and of obedience on His part; for He is sent here not to do His own will, but the will of Him that sent Him, and that goes on to His death. He lays down His life—no one takes it from Him. He has power—authority—to lay it down and to take it again. He says, “This commandment have I received of my Father ...”, John 10: 18. So, His resurrection there is His own act. You get three statements in the New Testament about the resurrection of the Lord. One we have just read in Ephesians 1, it is the surpassing greatness of God’s power. Then in Romans 6: 4 He is “raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father”. And then in John He raises His own body, chap 2: 19-22. And so with ascension. While you get ascension in Mark and Luke, there is no ascension in Matthew. In Mark and Luke, He is carried up, He is taken up; but in John 20: 17 He is not “carried up” or “taken up”. He tells Mary Magdalene, “go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend”.
I know that this is commonly accounted for on the ground that He, as a divine Person, had a perfect right to ascend. Of course, He had as a divine Person. He is God, equal with the Father and with the eternal Spirit. But I venture to think that in thus accounting for His ascension there is a point missed.
Ques. Is it not as a divine Person He raises Himself from the dead?
J.P. I do not think that is just the way Scripture puts it.
Rem. We are waiting for the point that you say is ‘missed’.
J.P. Well, it is as to the statement—“I ascend”. Here in chapter 4 we find that there are three things predicated of Him as to what He has accomplished: first, He has “ascended up on high”; secondly, He has led captivity captive; thirdly, He has given gifts to men. Of course, He is a divine Person; but I think what is set forth of Him in Ephesians is more the wonderful place He has as Man, I think that is the point of the Spirit there.
Ques. What title would you give Him in that connection? I mean in connection with Him ascending as Man.
J.P. He is the second Man out of heaven. He was that when He was here; He is always and ever that. God created the first man here in innocence. But God has brought in a Man down here who has not only glorified God as God, who has taken up every responsibility that ever attached to man here, and has perfectly met every claim of God and glorified God; but over and above that God has brought in a Man who belongs to heaven, and after that Man had met every claim of God down here and filled up everything in respect of human responsibility, He has a perfect right to heaven.
Ques. Then the second Man out of heaven goes into heaven, whence He came?
J.P. He does. That is what one has always felt about John’s gospel; one has always felt that resurrection could not be the terminus of things in John’s gospel. The One who is seen in John’s gospel is the second Man out of heaven, and He is bound to go back there. So if you read the gospel carefully, you need not be surprised to find twenty-one mentions of the ascension of the Lord in it, “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”, John 6: 62 “I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father”, &c., John 16: 28.
These five chapters in John (13-17) are all in the light of His ascension. Take chapter 13: 1: “When Jesus knew that his hour was come”—that what? That He should go to the cross? that He should die? that He should be raised? He does not say so, but that “he should depart out of this world unto the Father”. That is the great terminus in John. It belongs to Him, it is part of His glory. So He said, “I ascend”. So the Spirit says here, “he ascended”, “he led captivity captive”, “he has received gifts for men”, Ps 68: 18. Then the Spirit tells us of the gifts He has given from the wonderful place that He has.
Rem. It is from that place the gifts are given.
J.P. Yes, it is from that position they are given, but they are given in view of the assembly being seated together with Him. We are made to sit down together in Him now—a present spiritual reality. But what is present spiritual reality is going to become an eternal actuality. We shall be seated with Him. It is in view of that and the wonderful position of the assembly in relation to Him, when the assembly is found actually in the heavenlies with Christ. In Revelation 12, there is war in heaven, Michael and his angels fight against the dragon. Satan is cast down. What now? The moment has come for the church—the assembly—the complement of Him that fills all in all. Then there is the song—“Now is come salvation”, &c., v 10. That is to say, when the assembly actually goes into the heavenlies with Christ that will be the inauguration of that marvellous day—the administration of the fulness of the times, everything headed up in heaven and upon earth in Christ. It is all in view of that. I think that much spiritual enlargement results to us in the apprehension of it, and we get great spiritual encouragement in the contemplation of it. We sometimes think things are going to the bad; no, they are going to the good! When you get an Ephesian view of things it is simply glorious, and we need it, beloved.
Then the Spirit tells us the kind of gifts which the ascended Man has given. He has given some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers. Wonderful gifts! I do not think it is too much to say that we are in the good of all the gifts now. In this way, I mean—Has not the Spirit given us the record of the ministry of the apostles and prophets? And then there are, thank God, still some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers. What for? For the perfecting of the saints, with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the building up of the body of Christ; He has given them. And what is the goal? “Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God”. That is a wonderful statement! The gifts are given, and as far as they are in operation, in the power of the Spirit, the saints are being brought to this point—“Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God”. Do not let us miss the truth. We have been so slipshod in our reading that we have failed to distinguish between the Son as a divine Person in relation to the Father and as a divine Person as the Son of God.
Ques. What importance do you attach to the title “Son of man” in John 3:13?
J.P. It is very beautiful how the Lord speaks of Himself, especially in John’s gospel, almost invariably as the Son of man. Indeed, there is only one instance in John of His declaring Himself fully to any one as the Son of God and that is in chapter 9: 35. But almost invariably He speaks of Himself as the Son of man. The Son of man is the Son of God, and the Son of God is the Son of man, one and the same Person, both viewing Him as Man, one in relation to God and the other in relation to man. It is very beautiful and very instructive to take account of how He is spoken of. I think there is nothing, perhaps, in all the range of Scripture that ought to demand and engage our attention and interest us as the way that Christ is spoken of.
Ques. Tell us the difference; here it is the knowledge of the Son of God, and in Peter it is the knowledge of Jesus our Lord?
J.P. Peter’s line is the saints down here in relation to certain things that belong to their responsible life and path down here, and that is all covered by the expression, “Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”, 2 Pet 3: 18. It is not that Peter did not know Him as the Son of God. I am sure he did, but while he does not in exact terms speak of Him in that way in his epistle, yet he does speak of Him as the “living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious”, 1 Pet 2: 4. Who is that One? That is Jesus, the Son of God; He is the living stone, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, Matt 16: 16. The Lord said unto him, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven”, v 17.
Rem. There are four things in that verse you refer to. One is, “the unity of the faith”; next, “the knowledge of the Son of God”; then a perfect man, and then “the fulness of Christ”, Eph 4: 14. What is your thought in connection with these four?
J.P. The full-grown man is a man who has every faculty and member developed. He is a man in whom there is nothing lacking. The saints are to arrive at the stature of a full-grown man—that is, there is to be in them the expression and the answer to everything that characterises Him—“at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. You see it is a qualifying process now. With such stress laid on this point there cannot be perfect answer to it now; that can only be answered to fully in view of the wonderful place of the assembly in relation to Christ and in relation to His filling all things. Christ will fill all things in and through the assembly, and it is in view of that. I think a different sense of things will come into your soul when you lay hold of the fact that what is going on now is with reference to that coming day. It will impart a heavenly dignity to everything you do here, because you are not achieving results for earth nor for man, nor for time; you have got something before you much greater than all that. You have before you the coming ages—the administration of the fulness of times. You have before the vision of your soul Christ as the One who has ascended above the heavens and who is to fill all things, and you have the saints as united to Him. And then we have the operation of the gifts now until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God. One has often been asked—Is this arrival now or in the future? Well, if you speak of all the saints, it is in the future; but for you and me it ought to be now.
Rem. It is meant for all the saints now.
J.P. It is the one divine standard, for all the saints, the great ultimatum for every saint at all times, nothing less. We ought to have nothing less before us than arriving at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.
Rem. In that way there would be the formation of the helpmeet morally.
J.P. Yes, it is so. It may seem a little difficult for our minds to take this up as applying to ourselves now, and here, though as to all saints we have to take it up in relation to the last moment.
Rem. The point is that there is a divine standard set up and we have to reach that.
J.P. Yes, it seems to me that the worse things get in an outward way, so much the more important and precious this becomes.
Rem. It is all the more needed.
J.P. It is on the principle of that wonderful statement in Isaiah. When the enemy comes in like a flood the Spirit of Jehovah will lift up a standard against him. Is there anything around us that seems to indicate the enemy coming in like a flood? That is the time to look for the standard, to look for the banner which the Spirit of God has lifted up—a divine standard, a rallying-point for the saints, when the enemy comes in like a flood. Do you think there will be more conflict? There may be, but that is not the point. The point is the divine standard. I know we are great hands for details and persons, and often, in those times when the enemy seems to becoming in, we look round at that one and the other one. But what we want is to keep our eyes on the divine standard, the divine banner. If you hear of this one or that one having gone off into a division, it is for want of this unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.
Ques. Have you anything to say in connection with hearing the voice of Christ, because the standard that you have been referring to is brought about by the ministry of Christ through the gifts?
J.P. I think the test is what is stated here. There are three things stated in connection with the gifts. There is ministry among you—is it for the perfecting of the saints? Is it with a view to the work of the ministry? With a view to the edifying of the body of Christ? That is the test; it must be the test. Every man who takes any kind of a place in the way of ministry among the saints of God must come under that test.
Ques. Would you say the evangelist is for the saints?
J.P. Yes. The apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers are all in it. The test of the evangelist also is the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ. Some have got wrong ideas about evangelists. I am not an evangelist. I have been trying to preach the gospel for forty-six years, but I do not claim to be an evangelist. But one has sometimes to do the work of an evangelist, like Timothy; a kind of maid-of-all-work. The idea of an evangelist now is a man thoroughly independent of every other man except himself!
Rem. That is not the unity of the faith.
J.P. No, indeed; every man’s ministry, whatever his ministry may be, must come under the test. The best proof that I can give to any one that I have a gift from Christ is the fact that I so regard Christ, that I regard all that is so near and dear to Him. There could be nothing nearer to Him than His assembly—it is His complement. It is as near to Christ as Eve was to Adam. ‘Ishshah’ was derived from ‘Ish’; and so with the assembly; we are members of His body (flesh and bones is put there but should not be there), we are quickened together with Him. That is a wonderful statement—raised up together, made to sit down together. We could not be His body if we had not been quickened together with Him, raised up, and made to sit down in Him.
Ques. Is each one of the four gifts referred to here for the perfecting of the saints?
J.P. Every one, and for the edifying of the body. If God converts a sinner now, He converts him in view of putting that sinner in the body and building up the body. I can speak more feelingly, perhaps, than you can about these things. I have been a parson, and have been sent here and sent there, and have been told: ‘Now, remember the great interests of our church; we want to build up our church’. Our humbug, I say now! It is His body. The best proof any one can give that he has got any gift from Christ is that he is concerned about Christ’s body, interested in and devoted to the interests of the saints, and the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ.
Rem. Paul was the great evangelist: that I might preach him among the nations, Gal 1: 16.
J.P. Whatever marked Christ in connection with the glad tidings, or with the church, must in some measure mark us; if not, there is something wrong. He loved the church and delivered Himself up for it.
Rem. The shepherding spirit should be in every saint.
J.P. Yes, it should be; but especially in those mentioned here as gifts given by the ascended Christ. “A full-grown man”. It is in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about—like a little child who cannot stand very steady; you would not set it in a windy place where the wind might strike it and blow it over, though you might be able to keep your own feet there. We are exhorted to grow up in order that we may be “no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching which is in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematised error”. We do well to ponder these words. Some of us have lived long enough to see saints blown over, carried about by this wind and that wind—this or that teaching “which is in the sleight of men”. “But” (the Spirit of God always presents the other side)—“but, holding the truth in love”. What a great thing that is! You do not want to hold it in anything else, do you? Well, how are you holding it? Are you holding it in a harsh, ungracious spirit, or are you holding it in love? Love is not making friends with everybody. Love rejoiceth not in iniquity, it rejoiceth in the truth. Speaking morally and spiritually, there is nothing that has such a backbone in it as love. It is not soft, gushing sentimentality. “Holding the truth in love, we may grow up to him in all things”. That is the standard. “Who is the head, the Christ: from whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply, according to the working in its measure of each one part, works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love”. So there are two forms of edifying. There is the edification by the gifts, and there is the edification in the way just described. The saints, holding the truth in love, grow up to Him in all things, who is the Head. Then they edify themselves—“to its self-building up in love”. It is self-edification in love.
You may find a few saints here or there where there is no gift. You may ask them, Have you got any shepherds or teachers? No. Any evangelists? No. How, then, are you getting on? I know how some of them get on. Meetings are not so thick in America as they are in Great Britain in some places. But in many there is edification. They not only hold on their way, but they are being built up, they are self-edified.
May the Lord be pleased, beloved brethren, to give us the light of these things in our souls, and to give us the encouragement of them in a day like this!