Romans 3: 21-26; 8: 15-18; 11: 5,6 Ephesians 3: 8-10

"THE PRESENT TlME"

N.T.M. These scriptures all contain the expression "the present time", or alternatively the word "now"; they are therefore applicable to us to be exploited. They are not future - some scriptures are: the redemption of our bodies is future - but these scriptures are among the many which give us some understanding of what our portion is even at the present time. It is not to be despised in any sense. We say it is "the day of small things" (Zech 4: 10), which publicly it is, but it is also a day with great possibilities, a day when certain experiences can be known and entered into, which I am sure we would like increasingly liberty to do. I have suggested the first scripture because it gives us a wonderful foundation to rest on, because we are in the day when the mercy-seat is set forth and God's righteousness is shown forth: "the shewing forth of his righteousness in the present time". It is a thing that Israel does not have in quite the same way. God left Himself open to challenge in the old dispensation as to how He could righteously pass by the sins of the Old Testament saints and not bring them into judgment. The mercy-seat was hidden in those days in the recesses of the tabernacle, but now there is a shewing forth because of the work of Jesus, "whom God has set forth a mercy-seat ... for the shewing forth of his righteousness". It is set forth, brought on to view, so that we can approach with the fullest assurance. The work is not in prospect, the work has been done, has been completed. The precious, blessed, matchless work of Christ has been completed. I suppose the emblems on the table and especially the cup give us that assurance.

L.McF. So we are in the greatest dispensation there has been; in that way we are distinctly favoured, do you think?

N.T.M. Yes, we are very favoured. Perhaps we do not enter enough into the possibilities of the day.

H.G.H. Is the meaning of the word 'righteousness' in verse 21 the same as in verse 25?

N.T.M. "Righteousness of God" and "shewing forth of his righteousness": I thought so.

H.G.H. I just wanted it confirmed. It is wonderful that God being who He is has the right to forgive sins. What love is manifested in that!

N.T.M. Yes indeed; and the righteousness is manifested: it is not in prospect, the work is done. Some things remain hidden but this is not hidden. I think it is to give us assurance and liberty, in the service of praise especially, but bearing of course upon peace in our souls and the whole manner of our life. It is an inheritance we have.

J.A.P. Do we need help to see that the gospel is a current matter in heaven? And is it right to say that the blood is on the mercy-seat in that sense? John, in chapter 19 of his gospel, says of himself, "And he who saw it bears witness". Mr Darby said that the blood of Jesus being shed was a current thing in John's mind. I think we have treated the gospel a little historically - which it is of course - but it is a present thing.

N.T.M. That is good. It is "for the shewing forth"; shewing forth is a completed matter. There are no 'ifs' in the gospel; it is established and manifested. One would not like to use the word 'advertised' but there it is for us all to see; it is manifested.

J.A.P. So the words used in the passage we have read are current: "being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood".

N.T.M. That is what I thought. It was not exactly current in Abraham’s time, or even in Moses' time; the mercy-seat was hidden. Persons may have been told it was there, they may have been made aware that it was there, but now it is brought out so that persons can see it for themselves.

G.H. Do you have in mind that this present wonderful dispensation has a certain glory, being unique in that things have been manifested, as distinct from any other dispensation?

N.T.M. Yes; the present time is a unique period. While we rightly think of other periods (the patriarchal and all these other periods are very interesting to contemplate), yet there is something very wonderful about the present time. In our rightly acknowledging the public failure and our own failure and the sorrows with which we are alas too familiar, we must not lose the sense that there is still something at the present time which has its own glory.

C.F.D. Does this raise a challenge with us as to the preaching of the word of God? Do we not need to be stimulated and possibly reactivated in the whole matter of the preaching? Especially in this country there is a great need of gift in the preaching, that a full gospel might be presented, so that the work in people might be complete, having in view the securing of persons for the service of God.

N.T.M. Are you thinking of that expression of Paul's, "that through me the proclamation might be fully made", 2 Tim 4: 17? Do you think that we could be a little more enthused with the gospel? The word 'enthusiastic' would perhaps almost fit. When Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the glad tidings" (Rom 1: 16), you can almost read into that that he was thrilled with it.

C.F.D. Woe to me if I preach not (see 1 Cor 9: 16): Paul felt how incumbent the matter of the preaching was upon him. I think you have touched a sensitive point; we need to be revived in our enthusiasm for the glad tidings. Mr Taylor said many years ago in this city, Preach at every opportunity you get.

N.T.M. It may be something that we have somewhat neglected. The enemy always tries to hedge us in.

S.E.H. In some very small localities the preaching may be given up. Would it not be right for the preaching to be continued, where there is just a brother and his wife in a locality for example?

N.T.M. I doubt if it is God's mind that it should be given up, but rather that it should be continued. How it is continued may be a question. It may have to be taken out on to the street, but I think it should be continued. What would you say yourself?

S.E.H. I believe that is right. The testimony in a place would bear on the glad tidings going out from the locality, would you say?

N.T.M. Yes, I would. We have often said that the problems which the social workers work at, spend their whole careers at, are soluble by the gospel because at the root there is always a moral question.

H.G.H. If you and your wife were alone in a locality, would you preach to your wife?

N.T.M. I have preached to two, and speaking soberly, you find the Lord helps you in it.

H.G.H. Perhaps there were three there that needed help.

N.T.M. Very much so!

T.O. It says, "How shall they preach unless they have been sent?" Rom 10: 15. In relation to the smallness of gatherings, and also to enthusiasm, do you feel that, if you have a sense of being sent, the preaching is helped? Could you help us as to how we would make way for being sent to be expressed?

N.T.M. That is a somewhat deep question. The apostles knew they were sent, the Lord actually sent them. They had a known commission from the Lord. If anyone had said to them, What right have you to preach in this place, they could state their credentials. With ourselves we may shrink to take that ground of being sent directly by the Lord. Some have that experience, but I think most of us probably just take up the work. Maybe we are aware there is a need for the gospel, whether it is among the children of the saints or grown-ups, or in the street; there is a need for it and we take up the work. I suppose if the apostles were amongst us we would gladly hand it over to them.

G.H. In Acts 9, when Saul of Tarsus had been converted, it says, "And straightway in the synagogues he preached Jesus that he is the Son of God" (v 20). "Straightway": there seemed to be a certain urgency; he felt the need.

N.T.M. Yes; it was a very full preaching - he preached Jesus as the Son of God. I wonder what light must have come into his soul in that short space since he was converted. May be you (T.O.) have more to say, because we want to set young men free to preach.

T.O. I think we are in a slightly different situation in this country, perhaps not on the east coast here, but I feel exercised about an expression of this being manifested in localities. I do not know exactly how it would be set forward. In England persons are invited to preach and that maybe would give them a sense that they were sent; but it tests us when we work it out in a place, not being able to invite a preacher. Local brothers would feel a certain charge laid upon them regarding being sent, and although not apostolic in character, it would still be on their spirits that the brethren needed them and that they answered to that need in serving in the glad tidings.

N.T.M. If you have an invitation it is to be soberly considered. You would not quickly reject it, because it has come from a brother who you could credit was carrying exercise as to it. The assembly does not send out invitations to preach, but a brother does. In Villa Grove, presumably someone has taken up the charge of the gospel, or perhaps two of you, and you have charged yourselves with seeing that the preaching continues, and if there is no one else you will do it. That is the principle.

J.McK. If you do not have faith, do not go and preach. The fruit of the word may not come to light immediately, but I know of an occasion in which only one person was at a preaching by beloved Mr Gill in Canada, who preached widely; he went to this town, a hall was arranged for him, and the only one that came in was the man who owned the hall. Years later Mr Gill received a letter from that person saying that he had been thoroughly converted under his preaching when he was the only listener.

N.T.M. Such things are very interesting and for our encouragement.

K-n.A.O. I was wondering if, particularly at the present time, what Paul says to Timothy is to govern us: "Do the work of an evangelist", 2 Tim 4: 5. We may not have any distinction or gift but we are still to be minded to do that work. Is that right?

N.T.M. That is right. There are no official elders but the principle of eldership is to operate; so the work of the preaching has to be done, someone needs to take it up.

T.E.D. In Luke 15 it is "What man of you", and then "What woman”. Would both come into this evangelical activity? I wondered too, as to the rejoicing there, whether that does not express the enthusiasm that you spoke of earlier.

N.T.M. That is interesting; What man? What woman? A brother's wife and all the sisters can support the preaching; it is very encouraging to see their interest if you are preaching, to see the interest in a sister's face. She is helping the meeting on all right.

K.A.K. Is not the work of the preaching more basic and closer to us than we may realise? The scripture says, "with the mouth confession made to salvation", Rom 10: 10. God has ensured that the word is to be propagated by our own confession.

N.T.M. Doing the work of an evangelist is more than the formal preaching. It would perhaps be timely to encourage one another to pray for gift in the preaching, ask the Lord to give you the ability to preach well. The gift of the evangelist in Ephesians is a gift, and there have been men who have been outstandingly gifted in the preaching - perhaps not many relatively. But why should we not be? Gift continues right to the end; it does not run out before the end of the dispensation. The young ones should think about that. Ask the Lord to help you, because souls need to be saved and the house needs to be filled.

J.McK. Does the basic side of the preaching in relation to the preacher manifest his love for souls - a conscious sense that the love of God that took him up has now given him this incentive to go out and bring in other souls and be blessed as he has been blessed? You cannot preach if you do not love those you are preaching to.

N.T.M. Very good. The preaching has been committed into men's hands, not to angels.

J.McK. So we do not set the terms of the preaching; it is a question of going out in faith and of what God will add to the preaching, whether it be thirty, sixty or one hundredfold. This is the principle. I feel we should go out in the preaching even if there are only a few, preaching the word in season and out of season.

N.T.M. When you say going out do you mean out into the open air?

J.McK. The hedges and the highways, and compel them to come in that My house may be filled (see Luke 14: 23). The word of God is what compels them to come in. As you remarked, the basis of righteousness in relation to the kingdom of God is what we preach.

N.T.M. Yes. I thought this scripture shows that you have full authority, there is a full declaration. No part of the gospel is questionable in these days; no part can be challenged because the mercy-seat is now set forth.

G.H. How does the compelling them to come in operate?

N.T.M. It must be moral persuasion of some kind; must it not? I do not know that one could say much more than that - "compel them to come in". You have somehow to make people understand that there is something worthwhile coming for. Then of course it may be that the preacher himself makes it clear in his countenance.

H.J. Would the word 'shining' in 2 Corinthians 4 relate to this "shewing forth"? The apostle speaks about what has shone in our hearts for a shining forth (see v.6).

N.T.M. It may well be that the compelling is linked with the preacher’s countenance and his conviction. The first thing is to get the soul under the sound of it, then preach. That is what we did when we were young, we stood outside the room and asked people to come in; and for every fifteen or twenty you asked you might get only one with interest, but still, you are getting persons under the sound of it.

K-n.A.O. I was wondering if we have lost sight of the greatness of the preaching a little; maybe that is something in relation to which we need to be revived. It has been said it is the greatest service we can render.

N.T.M. Yes. It has been said that it is the outstanding feature of the dispensation because it was securing material for the house. As was said earlier, we need to keep the house in view; it is really securing persons for God's honour and praise. Of course, every one who is saved is a tribute to the work of Christ, it is to His honour.

J.A.P. I think our young men in Villa Grove and Indianapolis need to be encouraged; we hear good reports of them visiting one another. God is helping them. Timothy had a good report in both Lystra and Iconium (see Acts 16: 2); I would think he preached in his neighbouring localities, and we do that a little bit between New York and Plainfield. Do you think that should be encouraged?

N.T.M. Yes. There are brothers who preach week after week; they need reviving. It is so easy to become repetitive and also to lose keenness of exercise in relation to it. The idea of the prophetic character of the word comes into the preaching too. I mean it is not just a question of getting any word; it is a question of getting a word that is divinely seen to be needed.

H.G.H. For the company.

N.T.M. For the company and for every individual in it.

J.A.P. I think what you are saying as to the prophetic word in the gospel, would bear expanding. Would that be seen in Luke 4 when the Lord Jesus rose up to preach? He brought to bear on that locality what the issue was.

N.T.M. Yes; and the Spirit alone knows the state of soul of persons. In a way, I suppose a prophetic word is as much to be desired as a gifted expression, because it is timely and it meets the need of the moment, meets the state of soul and the exercise and the circumstances of the moment. It will do quite as much or maybe more than a word which is powerful in its way but missed the mark. It is like firing a gun; if you hit the target with a twenty-five pounder you are more likely to achieve your result than if you miss it with a one hundred pounder.

J.McK. So the preaching involves everything as to the fulness of the truth. It is not only for sinners; you get the full glad tidings in Ephesians. We have to consider, as you remark, whom we are speaking to, and if we do not know, the Spirit knows, and He gives us the word to preach.

N.T.M. Yes. When we preach we should perhaps be prepared to stand up and in a certain sense let the thoughts come. I suppose it is so with every matter of ministry.

J.McK. You have initially here, as you suggest, the great matter of going out and preaching to men who are supposedly sinners, who have not committed themselves to the truth. It should be a very present exercise in all of our localities that there are those willing to go out and preach and leave the results with God. Paul said, I planted, Apollos watered but God Himself gives the increase. He said, neither is the planter or the waterer anything, but God Himself who gives the increase (see 1 Cor 3: 6,7). I think if we go out in that spirit in dependence on God and the Spirit, we will get results.

N.T.M. I think the Lord will honour it.

J.McK. The Lord said, in regard to that, that the word would not return to Him void but accomplish that for which it is sent (see Isa 55: 11).

G.D.P. Paul saw what was required on Mars hill; he saw the monument to the unknown God and he preached from that (see Acts 17: 23).

N.T.M. Yes, he took account of the circumstances. When you stand on the street corner you see plenty of empty faces, people waiting for the bus. It is not a bad idea to stand by a bus stop; you then have a captive audience. The Lord can delay that bus. There are a lot of practical things to consider; we need to preach where people are. It is not always easy to be heard. But still the Lord will help us find a way whether it is in the room or on the street. I think both should be maintained.

C.F.D. We are being very practical; we are speaking about the open air preaching; how can this be revived amongst us?

N.T.M. "If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter", Matt 18: 19. You find someone who might be free for half an hour at the same time as you can be free. I think two is good, two is testimony, witness. I would not say it would have to be two if one is able for it, but it is good to have a brother. Are we convicted as to the necessity of it or the need for it? If we are I expect we could manage a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes. Also I think, although it is a side issue, open air preaching makes you feel more real. It makes you feel that you are in Christianity, you have taken up the service of an ambassador, you are nailing up your colours, you are raising your banner. I think we have felt that when we have preached in the open air.

C.F.D. What you are saying is very helpful. Another has said, you might not get converts, there might not be persons there that all of a sudden are affected by what you are saying, but it gives spiritual fibre to those who take the service on. So that should encourage the young men. If you want to develop spiritual fibre, take it on, do you think?

N.T.M. Yes. As you say, that is not the main reason for it but it is a side benefit.

L.McF. The fact that the woman of Samaria went out alone would suggest that we are dealing with something relating to our affections for Christ. If the affections are right there will be this move with us, brothers and sisters alike, do you think?

N.T.M. That is helpful. She went out alone. We would understand, of course, that literally sisters would not go out and preach on the street. I suppose they could give away a tract. But this idea of going out alone shows that she was convinced that she had the answer to her need and her desires and her longings, and that Christ was for all men.

G.H. In regard to the open air preaching, you say it would help you to be more real: do you mean in your love for souls?

N.T.M. Well yes, and in testimony too. You may get a few cat-calls from across the street, you may get people jeering at you, you may get people revving up their car engines so that you cannot be heard; this kind of thing is all in the experience. But there you are, out in the cold world, in the enemy's territory. In the meeting room it is not quite the same, but in the street you are in Satan's area; he will quench it if he can. I think it brings out manhood. It is not the only thing that brings out manhood - assembly sorrows do as well - but I think it does bring out manhood, ability to face the stream.

K.N.P. Would speaking to souls individually have a bearing on this too?

N.T.M. It would, and it may be a very fruitful service. The work of the evangelist probably means that more than the formal preaching. I would not say it does exclusively, but it is the ability to draw near to a person and to get the conversation round. I do not know what it is like in America, but in England you can always get a conversation going if you talk about the weather. Now it should not be too difficult to swing the conversation round to the One who controls the weather. There are persons who can do that.

J.McK. The Spirit said to Philip, "Approach and join this chariot" (Acts 8: 29), and he had a convert who went on his way rejoicing.

N.T.M. Yes, he was a convert of quality.

K.A.K. What about the gift of evangelism related to the publication or writing of tracts? I was thinking in particular about Paul's ability in writing and am wondering whether this would be seen in our time in writing to persons or in the writing of a tract.

N.T.M. I think it is open to us, open to any one to write a tract, make an appeal.

K.A.K. One feels the need of this currently. There are very few tracts that are up to date, that are suitable for getting a person's attention. Many are perfectly good but they were written for persons of earlier times and there is need for something that is written with today's world in mind perhaps.

N.T.M. The gospel does not date, as you know, it is always appropriate, but if there is anything you want to enlist for your aid, a tragedy for example, you can use it. I think possibly gift is that you can give the gospel a present bearing. The same with a plane crash or a disaster. The Lord used the incident of the tower of Siloam (see Luke 13: 4).

T.E.D. In Athens, already referred to, Paul's spirit was painfully excited in him (see Acts 17: 16). Is that a need with us, our inward feelings before God and men?

N.T.M. I could not say much about it in an experimental way, and perhaps therein lies a failing. We tend to get cynical, we tend to get hardened, case-hardened as people say. All the sickness and all the sorrow that there is in the world we tend to accept as part of life without entering into what it means. I think what you say as to Paul shows he was not like that; it moved him deeply, it moved his soul when he saw the city.

H.J. A few years ago there was a brother who used to go to the hospitals and speak to persons in their beds. I thought that was a wonderful service. He did it regularly.

N.T.M. I think the Lord would bless that if any one commits himself to it. Such a person may not be able to preach publicly - I mean he may not be able to put words together too well - but the Lord will bless him, and it is as valuable as a public preacher.

C.F.D. That kind of service could be done by a sister. I heard of a sister recently; certain persons saw her coming and they said amongst themselves, Here comes that lady who speaks to us about the Lord. I thought that was a fine testimony.

N.T.M. That is fine. "Great the host of the publishers", Ps 68: 11. The note there says the word is feminine - women publishing victory.

G.H. Many years ago we had an elderly sister in Gothenberg, Sweden, really a mother in Israel, who went down to the harbour and spoke to the people about the Lord and gave out tracts; she rendered a remarkable testimony.

N.T.M. Well, the setting forth of the mercyseat is now, and we might perhaps say, from now on.

K-n.A.O. As to the enquiry made earlier about being sent; in that same scripture Paul says, "how shall they hear without one who preaches?" Rom 10: 14. He raises that issue. Do you think that that balances the side of being sent, that we just cannot say that persons are not coming to our rooms or things like that; we have the responsibility, have we not?

N.T.M. In Isaiah the emphasis is on 'send' is it not? The prophet says "send me", Isa 6: 8. He is prepared to go but he wants the Lord's support: "send me". It is a bit like Gideon and the fleece, he wanted some impression that the Lord was putting His hand on him - send me. We have been rather a long while on this but it is just how readings proceed.

In the next scripture, chapter 8 verse 15 it says, "For ye have not received a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Then it goes on to say, "And if children, heirs also: heirs of God and Christ's joint heirs; if indeed we suffer with him that we may also be glorified with him. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed to us". "The sufferings of this present time" would include the testimonial sufferings.

J.A.P. Does it show the importance of the Spirit and that He would help us? The present time is the Spirit's time.

N.T.M. Are you referring to the latter part of the chapter?

J.A.P. That would be included, but what you read began with the Spirit and I wonder if that connects with the great matter of "the present time" because it is the Spirit's time.

N.T.M. Yes, very good; it is peculiarly the dispensation of the Spirit. "In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his presence saved them", Isa 63: 9. The Spirit is here with the saints in their afflictions and their sufferings. Take a martyr: the Spirit never left a suffering martyr, He was with him in the suffering, speaking reverently. He is a divine Person who could not be touched and yet He was with the martyr in the suffering. This expression, "the sufferings of this present time", may possibly refer to the whole dispensation, but it may refer to any given time and the peculiar character of suffering of that time. In the western countries we are not in the period of the martyr sufferings but there are the sufferings of this present time.

H.G.H. How about the sufferings of Romans 7?

N.T.M. I suppose they have gone right through the church period. But I wondered as to the sufferings of this present time, whether we can identify any particular sufferings. I do not know what brethren think.

H.J. In this very chapter he speaks about "groanings which cannot be uttered"; would that relate to the sufferings that some go through?

N.T.M. Verse 26: "the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered". He makes intercession but it is not aside from our own exercises. In other words you do not put it entirely on the Spirit; He makes the intercession but it is in connection with our exercises, our sorrows.

L.McF. Does not the taking on of responsibility in our localities entail a certain amount of suffering at the present time? I am thinking of the side of privilege, to share in that at the present time, getting involved in what is local, in the sorrows as well as the joys.

N.T.M. That is helpful, and something worth thinking about and speaking about in connection with the carrying of the tabernacle: that may involve suffering.

J.McK. I wonder if you would illustrate a little more fully what you consider to be the sufferings of the present time in regard to the truth. Paul exhorts Timothy to take his share in suffering as a good soldier of Jesus Christ (see 2 Tim 2: 3). Then there are other sufferings as just remarked, the inward, the care of all the assemblies as Paul said (see 2 Cor 11: 28), what he suffered in his spirit. Now in our measure are we prepared to take on those sufferings and manifest the Spirit of Christ in them?

N.T.M. This bears on the labour of the service of the tabernacle, the carrying of the testimony in the wilderness, and the carrying through of meetings, the assembly calendar. It may involve some element of suffering; it is the service of the labour of the tent of meeting. It may be that in this present time more has fallen on a few.

H.G.H. Paul says, "Who is stumbled, and I burn not?", 2 Cor 11: 29. There would be suffering in that burning, would there not?

N.T.M. Yes, that is so.

A.S.H. Peter says, "Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh, do ye also arm yourselves with the same mind", 1 Pet 4: 1. What would you say about arming yourselves with the same mind?

N.T.M. "Arm yourselves with the same mind; for he that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin": I think probably that specially bears on what we find within ourselves in the way of lust and so on, that we will not give into it; we would rather suffer in the flesh. "He that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin" is a very real thing we all have to face.

J.McK. Maybe the ostracising of children at school, your part in the work in the office, or whatever it may be, involves suffering because you will not socialise in that element. I think that is part of the sufferings today, not physical in the sense of what the martyrs suffered, but what we suffer in our spirits to maintain the principle of separation from the world in whatever character of it we may find ourselves.

N.T.M. That is helpful. I think that, as arming ourselves with that mind, we come to accept that we can expect suffering. It is not going to be an extraordinary but rather the expected order of the day.

A.S.H. It says "arm yourselves"; it is not a light matter to arm ourselves.

N.T.M. You are expecting it; you are not caught unprepared; "arm yourselves with the same mind". Where things have to be carried by a few there are tests; I think that suffering has possibly become extended in that sense in recent years.

G.H. Paul writes to Timothy: "Take thy share in suffering as a good soldier of Jesus Christ", 2 Tim 2: 3. It is a military setting. What do you have to say about that?

N.T.M. Well, a good soldier expects it, he will not run away from it, "Take thy share": it has been said that if I do not take my share somebody else will have to carry an additional load of it.

T.E.D. Would you say something as to how we can enter feelingly into the breakdown in husband and wife relationship, the extraordinary suffering in that area.

N.T.M. I hesitate to say much because it is almost unbearable to think of. I have an impression that it will not be without some result. The suffering of the assembly as the Lamb's wife would include that kind of thing. It could not be without some result. Some element of glory and beauty will go into the holy city as a result of the sufferings of this present time; I mean the intensity of it and the reality of it, especially where there are few and there is not much company to make it up. It must be very, very real. One hesitates to say; it is there to be felt by us and prayed about.

J.McK. It is not going unnoticed or unrewarded. I was thinking of Revelation 19: "And it was given to her" - that is the bride "that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints" (v 8). It is going through; and that should be a great incentive to us as having part in that bride's exposition as the bride of Christ. We will have our part in that which is fine linen, bright and pure, everything that reflects what the glory of Christ is in her. Should that not encourage us? "The sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory".

N.T.M. That is the truth I am sure, and it is to sustain us.

S.O. I wondered about the scripture that says, "If one member suffer, all the members suffer with it", 1 Cor 12: 26. Does not the Spirit work in that way? If somebody is suffering you feel it in your spirit, do you not?

N.T.M. That is the intention. If one member suffer all suffer; that is the idea of the body, and it is something that we should not forget nor try to elect ourselves out of.

H.G.H. You said that we tend to be cynical. If we find ourselves that we should seek help as to it.

N.T.M. The spirit of the world that is abroad does tend to harden us. You open a newspaper and it is the same old thing, and you tend to become hard about it, but it is not intended that we should be. We are to endure hardness but not become hard.

We have not by any means finished this subject but I think there is something for us about "the present time", dear brethren, that we do not miss our day. We do not live in the future; we take up what is current in our own day. The Lord has caused us to be born in this day and this is where our responsibility is. The millennium will take care of itself, we shall be there and it will be very wonderful, but there is something at the present time for us.

H.J. Before we close I wish you would say something about the scripture read in Ephesians. How are the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies able now - it says 'now' - to know the all-various wisdom of God in the assembly?

N.T.M. I do not know that I can say much except that the way things are worked out in care and administration is something of a revelation to them. They observe it with interest, and no doubt the understanding of that would make us careful and keep us careful in how we administer, the spirit in which we do things, the all-various wisdom of God being seen, dealing with situations which could not be met in any legal way. You may get a hard case. Believers working under the numeral twelve find there is some way of wisdom, some way of love, in which matters are met, and it is an education to these principalities and authorities. They learn from a few saints meeting a difficult situation in their locality, and this is happening now. That is how I understand the scripture in a general sense.

H.G.H. We are on stage.

N.T.M. That is an interesting expression. It is now. Yes, that fits.

H.J. I wondered too if there is a wider sense in which what God is doing in relation to His people at the present time in forming the assembly, and all the various aspects of His ways and operations to do that, brings out His great wisdom, even in the present course of things that we have had to with so much.

N.T.M. The book of Proverbs culminates in that woman, how she does things.

 

NEW YORK

4 September 1988

 

 

 

 

Key to initials

C.F.Dadd, Plainfield; T.E.Druckenmiller, Plainfield; A.S.Hinkson, New York; G.Hesterman, Plainfield; H.G.Holt, Chicago; S.E.Hesterman, Plainfield; H.Jensen, Los Angeles; K.A.Knauss, Indianapolis; J.McKillop, Chicago; L.McFarlane, New York; N.T.Meek, Malvern; Kevin A.Oberg, Villa Grove; S.Oberg, Villa Grove; T.Oberg, Villa Grove; G.D.Pfingst, Plainfield; J.A.Petersen, Plainfield; K.N.Pye, New York