Luke 9: 28-51

THE DAYS OF HIS RECEIVING UP

A.P.D. I was thinking about this reference ''the days of His receiving up" and, perhaps what would correspond, that we are in the days of our receiving up. It says of the Lord that He was received up in glory (1 Tim 3: 16), or gloriously. Peter speaks about the one whom heaven must receive (Acts 3: 21). No doubt He has His own distinction in every way but there should be some correspondence with our being received up, which is just before us. This passage may encourage us and exercise us that there might be a moral correspondence. I think Luke suggests the Lord as pattern; it is perhaps general throughout this gospel, the Lord is the pattern as the heavenly Man. He is pattern for us. As I said, He retains His own distinctiveness and would always have that place in our affections, but what is seen in Him by the Spirit is to be seen in us. So Luke only, I believe, speaks of Him praying in this section. It says, "he went up into a mountain to pray." I thought we might think of this section in view of the suggestion of our being received up.

L.McF. The Lord's attitude in praying would very much be becoming to us, do you think, in view of our receiving up?

A.P.D. Yes. He is viewed as the dependent Man. It says, ''the fashion of his countenance became different". So there is what is to be different in the saints, a heavenly character is to come into expression.

A.S.H. It says of Luke that he spoke with accuracy (Luke 1: 3).

A.P.D. Yes. He gives things in moral order. I think there is what is seen in Christ uniquely and distinctively, and we must keep this always in mind; yet the attractiveness of what is seen in Him is to be seen in the saints, and it is different.

C.F.D. In the Acts it says, "they recognised them that they were with Jesus", Acts 4: 13, these men that were near to Christ testimonially. They earned on the features that were seen in Him because morally they had taken them on.

A.P.D. I am sure that is right. I think we are in the days, we can say, of our receiving up. Morally attractive features that shone in Christ are to be seen substantially in the saints.

J.R.C. Christ is the pattern of God's world.

A.P.D. So we have in this section what we might enjoy as together, a little preview of what we enjoy and touch now by the Spirit. But then we have things that we have to meet too. The section we read goes on to how the Lord Jesus met them.

J.A.P. What is the force of “the days of his receiving up"? In verse 22 He speaks of “the Son of man must suffer'', but it is put here “the days of His receiving up". What does that imply?

A.P.D. I think it suggests heaven's eager anticipation. What would you say?

J.A.P. I think we are very worried about the sufferings before we go into glory, but there is this wonderful matter of being received up; 'Received in glory bright up there’, (hymn 350). It lifts our hearts a little, does it not?

A.P.D. I am sure it does. And it is to be glorious - we are to go up gloriously. He was received up in glory (1 Tim 3: 16), not into glory but in glory, meaning gloriously. And I think there is to be a moral glory shining in the saints that is attractive to heaven. Is that too much to say?

L.McF. I do not think so. I was thinking of these two men who are also appearing in glory. These were men of the Old Testament and yet they are in sympathetic support, do you think, of the Lord Jesus as He is seen there?

A.P.D. That is very attractive perhaps giving us a little preview of the happy, mutual side of things that we will enjoy and touch now by the Spirit as we are together.

L.D.P. I wonder if the suggestion of moral correspondence can be seen in Acts 7, "And they stoned Stephen praying, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", v 59?

A.P.D. Beautiful. And then he says, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge", the Spirit of His Master shining in Stephen. He went up in glory. He may have gone up as suffering as having been stoned, but there was what was glorious there, morally glorious.

J.R.C. The end of Luke's gospel makes that comment that He was carried up, a very attractive matter, that that Man was received into heaven - carried up - as if the whole of heaven was celebrating the incoming of Jesus to heaven.

A.P.D. I am sure that is right. I think in Acts 1 it says He was taken up. But then there is to be some impression of that amongst us. It says of Enoch that he had this testimony before he was translated that he pleased God (Heb 11: 5). We are in those days, I think, and are we conscious of being pleasurable to God?

C.F.D. It says here, "And as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different"; it refers also to His clothing, "his raiment while and effulgent". But I am thinking of "as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different". What would you say about that?

A.P.D. You help us please. Tell us what your impressions are.

C.F.D. I wondered whether His immediate link with heaven - "as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different" - resulted in a reflection of what was heavenly in His face which could be witnessed to by the disciples here, and whether, with ourselves, that as we move forward in relation to what is of Christ and what is of heaven there should be not only a moral change but something that would transpire in the believer which persons would be able to say, Well, he is different.

A.P.D. Yes, very good. "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord." It is the way we come into it, is it not, "are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory," 2 Cor 3: 18? So we can see it in the brethren's faces. “Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones", 1 Cor 15: 48. I think that suggests what is substantial, a reflection of what is heavenly in the faces of the saints. Our brother referred to Stephen, it says his face shone as the face of an angel (Acts 6: 15). That is not only the thought of judicial glory; it is the thought of what is heavenly reflected in his face.

C.F.D. I am glad you refer to that because that was a public witness. He was sitting before the court in a sense and there was a witness which they must have seen. And who was it that would say that his face was as the face of an angel? Somebody must have had that idea spiritually. I for one have not seen an angel. It became reflective of what was heavenly, did it not?

A.P.D. I am sure that is so. Our brother alluded to the side of suffering, what suffering Stephen endured, sufferings which none of us will endure, and yet what is heavenly is reflected substantially in Stephen. He looked right into heaven. There is a remarkable piece of Mr Taylor's entitled Cloudless Dispensation. I trust the brethren have all read that. In a sense Acts begins with the introduction of a cloud, "a cloud received him out of their sight." It is almost a backward allusion to the cloud in the Old Testament, but a forward look is that he looked right into heaven, no cloud, nothing between them.

A.S.H. As you were speaking the scripture came before me, "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit" 2 Cor 3: 18. I wondered whether the thought of glory to glory had any place as to what you are speaking about.

A.P.D. Very much so. Not from degradation to glory, as has been said, but from glory to glory. You said something about His raiment, what do you say about that, ''white and effulgent".

C.F.D. I wondered whether what He is experiencing does not bring in a kind of a complete change. The whole thing is there, ''white and effulgent" would be a reflection of what He was morally. You might say what He is is shining about, even in His raiment there is an expression of what is heavenly.

A.P.D. I think that is helpful. So it would perhaps have its bearing on our associations of life, what comes into expression.

J.A.P. Hebrews 2: 14 says that the Lord Jesus not only overcame death but He annulled him who has the might of death. So the Lord foresaw that Satan would oppose our going into heaven and we need faith to see that that power is broken and that the saints are heavenly and there is this side of the days of receiving up. The Lord would have us enjoy that. ·

A.P.D. I think so. I think we are in those days. We want to think about that and that there is the desire with us all that we have this testimony that we please God before we are translated. It is not a question of being snatched from the burning; it is a question of ''from glory to glory"; not from degradation to glory but "from glory to glory". The saints are to be glorious, they are to be different. Something different is to come into expression, and I think that what has been said that that would be what is characteristically heavenly.

C.F.D. Does that shine out in Moses and Elias, "two men talked with him, who were Moses and Elias, who, appearing in glory"? You might say, here they were. They were no doubt given bodies and the reflection of appearing in glory no doubt was provisional with them, but would be a heavenly aspect of things so that they would see these men and they would say that that is what heaven is like.

A.P.D. I think this mutual side of liberty is most attractive, which we are to enjoy. I think someone said we are in the current of what is going on in heaven in this section, but then we touch it now by the Spirit. It is not formal and official here; they talked with Him. There is a holy, mutual conversation. It would give us some indication of the liberty and mutuality that we will enjoy when we are with Him. But then we can touch it now, I think.

D.McF. Peter speaks of His majesty (1 Peter 1: 16) as far as His glory is concerned. Would there be a link?

A.P.D. "Having been eyewitnesses of his majesty." I think we must always keep the Lord Jesus in our minds and affections in His own distinctiveness. "A voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son", 1 Peter 1: 17. What an impression Peter received. While he was not up to it here, as he goes over it by the Spirit, he comes to those remarkable conclusions - "having been eyewitness of his majesty."

J.R.C. Would it be right to think that there is no change in the Person?

A.P.D. I think what was there comes into expression.

J.R.C. It is the way scripture speaks of it, "became different". Is that not the view of the persons who were there to see the heavenly character of the Person?

A.P.D. I am sure that is right and it is well to realise that.

J.R.C. In Corinthians it says, ''we shall be changed" 1 Cor 5: 52, that is the physical change into what is spiritual; but with the Lord Jesus there is no thought of change in Him at all, He is what He is.

A.P.D. I suppose it is like removing of the veil for the moment to see what was there in its intrinsic and moral beauty. But then we need to be changed, do we not, to be brought into correspondence with Him? Then we might just see that we have these matters to meet here. "And it came to pass on the following day, when they came down from the mountain".

K.N.P. I was thinking about what you were saying in relation to the change and the Person being the same - what they were speaking about was what He was going to accomplish. I was thinking of the perspective they had; they spoke of His departure which He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem. It is not so much what men were going to do or men's view of things, but it was what the Lord's objective was. I thought that that would maybe link with what you are saying about the view that these persons had of Him, the occupation that Moses and Elias had with the Lord was about what He was about to accomplish.

A.P.D. That is helpful. We often are occupied with our matters. Of course in a sense that would be right, but here we are elevated in our thoughts as to what He will do. According to 1 Thessalonians 4 that is a wonderful prospect that we have: "the Lord himself". Of course in Luke 9 it looks on to His death and what He would accomplish in His death, but in 1 Thessalonians 4 it is what we are looking for, “the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord. So encourage one another with these words." So we can well be occupied with what the Lord is going to do. "The Lord himself" a beautiful reference, is it not?

J.A.P. A brother was saying lately that we anticipate this in the Supper. It is a question whether there is a change with the brethren at the Supper. Whether we are affected by the Lord - some impression from Christ.

A.P.D. I am sure that is helpful to see. A manifestation of the glory of the Lord; when He comes to us. "I am coming to you." It has been said that a manifestation is a new way in which the Lord may present Himself, different and fresh. We want to be alert and ready for that. And then I think that would effect a change in us.

C.F.D So that the Lord's coming in amongst us at the time of the Supper is not a stereotyped situation; it is something that is marked by the freshness of heaven as He would come in. So it says here "but having fully awoke up they saw his glory". I wonder whether that is a suggestion of what it would be on the Lord's day - some fresh impress of that glory.

A.P.D. That is helpful. There is a tendency, I suppose, with us to lethargy. Paul speaks in Ephesians about waking up; chapter 5: 14 "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee." What you say about it not being stereotyped is surely confirmed in the three manifestations in the end of John's gospel, each different, each distinctive, each no doubt having its own effect on those that saw Him.

J.R.C. I think we were encouraged a few days ago about the particular glory of the Son of God at the Supper. That is a feature which is so essential for us. We are prone to bring in our blessings and what we enjoy, and that is right, but there is something for God distinctively, as in this scripture here, in Christ alone. Do you think that would be right?

A.P.D. Very good. It says, "And as the voice was heard Jesus was found alone". I think in all these things, although we speak rightly about our being conformed to His image, made like unto Him, we must always keep in our minds His peculiar distinctiveness. Perhaps you are referring to our brother's address in Denton, Christ on God's side; it helps us to take account of Christ as the Son of God. Now, to touch on these practical matters. I would like to inquire as to why he says that the days of His receiving up were fulfilled? You might say it was still before Him.

C.F.D. The Lord brings in what is anticipative, does He not? That they were ''fulfilled" suggests that from His own side everything was complete and He was ready to fill out the great thought of ''the days of his receiving up" - a marvellous matter His being received up. Receiving Him up, shows the attitude of heaven, does it not, and the Lord, it seems, was ready here. I would be glad to hear what you have to say about that.

A.P.D. I wondered if it would be right to suggest that these incidents that come in immediately are in the light of the days of His receiving up.

C.F.D. What is in your mind?

A.P.D. It is very interesting to me that it says that He healed the child and gave him back to his father. In these days there should be faith, and a great need for prayer and fasting; what the Lord might accomplish as we beseech Him. He says, "I beseech thee look upon my son". In these days in which we are, the days of our receiving up, what might not the Lord do for us if we have faith, if we are believing and if we are in the attitude of prayer and fasting? I do not know what the brethren would think of that.

 

C.F.D. So from the Lord's side He has to say, "O unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you and suffer you?" But later on after the son had been restored to his father, it says, "And all were astonished at the glorious greatness of God." That is what shone out in Christ - did it not? - as He was moving here, but I wondered if the unbelieving and perverted generation is not put in for us to examine ourselves closely to see if there is any strain of unbelief with us. It might be more with us than we realise.

A.P.D. It included the disciples; that is a solemn thing. His remarks "O unbelieving and perverted generation," included the disciples. It is interesting that these three matters come in before it says, "the days of his receiving up were fulfilled," as if in these days, these wonderful days in which we are looking forward to the Lord's return, the Lord coming for us, the Lord would give us to realise that He has the power and the means to meet these conditions. What would you say?

L.McF. Coming down from the mountain would suggest our everyday circumstances and how the truth is worked out there.

A.P.D. I am sure. What might not the Lord do for us if we are believing. Another scripture says "But this kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting" Matt 17: 21. All of us have some circumstances similar to these, perhaps not so extreme and yet extreme. What might not the Lord do for us if we beseech Him and are believing - believing persons?

J.R.C. You emphasised that the disciples were included in that statement.

A.P.D. Yes, they were.

J.R.C. I think that is something for us to hold on to. What difference was there between the disciples and a perverted generation. There is something the Lord was rebuking.

A.P.D. He was.

J.A.P. There was this underlying matter of ''who should be the greatest". What the brethren are saying is very important. This was lurking at the hearts of the disciples and a few days later when the Lord introduced the Supper the same thing again.

A.P.D. Yes. It is very attractive the way Luke brings it in, He took a little child and set it by Him It Would challenge our hearts could the Lord take me and set me by Him as having the spirit of a little child? It is not in the midst here - in Matthew it is in the midst - but He put it by Him. I think here He would say, Look at Me and look at the little child there is a correspondence - the spirit of a little child. He would say to any one of us, Could I put you by Me to set out the principle of the spirit of a little child?

C.F.D. You would relate the simplicity and yet reality of faith with a little child. The child would represent the principle of unswerving faith do you think?

A.P.D. It would be a test to us as to whether the Lord can put us by Him and say, I want to show you something, I want to show you the spirit of a little child. "In the midst" - they would be all around and taking account of the child, but here He put it by Him. That is a very attractive suggestion, I think. We are in the days of our receiving up and it is interesting that these matters come here before it says, "the days of his receiving up were fulfilled", as if we are to encounter these things, and we surely do; we are to be marked by faith and believing and the spirit of a little child.

L.McF. So the Lord says, "Whosoever shall receive this little child in my name receives me, and whosoever shall receive me receives him that sent me." So this reception with us it is "in my name". We had much as to the Name in the beginning of Acts recently.

A.P.D. So it is a representative and in Luke the representative is morally like the Sender. Governments are represented, but do they represent in any sense the government except officially? But here the suggestion is that the one sent is morally like the Sender. That is a wonderful thing that whatever you might do and say you represent morally the One that sent you.

J.R.C. That is the way Paul speaks of Timothy; he is a complete representation of Paul amongst the saints.

A.P.D. "No one like-minded" Phil 2: 20 – very good.

J.R.C. He also says of him "my beloved child" and "my true child", that is how he speaks of him in the two epistles (2 Tim 1: 2 & 1 Tim 1: 2).

A.P.D. It is a great test, I think. I think the days of our receiving up need to be kept before us, that in these days, these wonderful days in which we are just waiting for the Lord's return, His soon coming, these elements or these moral thoughts should come into expression. Would you say that?

J.R.C. How needful that the younger generation is included in our thoughts and our love and directions, because that is what the Lord is displaying here, is it not? After all, the young people, speaking naturally, are thinking about what lies ahead of them, but the great thing is the Lord's coming. Therefore we want to keep that livingly in their minds by what we can express in ourselves.

A.P.D. Very good. I think the Lord would say there is a certain correspondence between this little child and Me. Would you not like in some sense to bring out the moral loveliness of Jesus, the moral features that shone in Christ? We may say, if the Lord came in we would listen to Him, would we not? If He physically, corporeally, came in we would listen to Him. But there is a suggestion here that the principle, the spirit, of this little child is to be seen in the persons and we should receive them even as we would receive Him.

J.R.C. That immediately negates any ideas of importance. The disciples were concerned about who was the greatest. It is the reasoning of their hearts it says! perhaps they were not saying it but they were meaning it.

A.P.D. That is a great test; do we move amongst the brethren with the desire to leave an impression of Christ? We all know our own hearts and the tendency to seek prominence and appreciation, but what really matters, what will be lasting and what will abide in the hearts of the saints is to bring in some impression of Christ.

C.F.D. He says in Matthew 18 "Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child," v 4. He goes on to speak about "he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens'. That little child represents the principles of humbling ourselves, another world of things which is centred in Christ.

A.P.D. That is the way to true moral greatness, is it not? You think of what He does here, ''taken a little child set it by him," and then you read in Philippians 2, "For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus; who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; but emptied himself, taking a bondman's form, taking his place in the likeness of men;" v 5-7. This is the One who took a little child and put it by Him. That going down mind, that going down spirit, is to be seen in us. It goes on to say, "becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him," v 8,9. Of course He has His own distinctive place, but then Paul says, Let this mind be in you - the little child by Him, really. That is what we want to demonstrate, that spirit. Then finally you have this reference in verse 49, "And John answering said, Master, we saw some one casting out demons in thy name, and we forbid him, because he follows not with us. And Jesus said to him, Forbid him not, for he that is not against you is for you." Well, those were the days of His receiving up, those are the days of our receiving up. What does it convey to us?

L.McF. We do not want to assume that we are the only ones. Do you think that was what John was saying - ''we forbad him, because he follows not with us." I think we need help as to that, the Lord knowing those that are His.

A.P.D. So John would perhaps emphasise "because he follows not with us" - us. But we are not to think, as you suggest, that we are the only ones. Thank God for the light and truth that the Lord has given to us, but it is for all, and what others may be doing we must leave that and be thankful for it.

C.F.D. I was just thinking that - 'and be thankful for it'. Whoever these might be, they had the secret to the power, because it says, ''we saw some one casting out demons in thy name". Whoever that was, they had the secret as to where the power was and evidently the Lord was quite prepared to provide it, and the domain of the enemy in principle is being overcome.

A.P.D. I think this is something for us to consider. Our brother said in Aberdeen, "Lord, and what of this man?... what is that to thee?" John 21: 21,23. He linked it with what others might be doing. What is that to thee? "Follow thou me." What others might be doing, thank God for it, if they are spreading the gospel thank God for it: but His word to us is "Follow thou me." I was helped by that.

J.R.C. It is a very positive statement here, "he that is not against you is for you." Chapter 11 brings in the other side, "He that is not with me is against me," v 23. The great difference, as has been pointed out, is the truth of the Holy Spirit.

A.P.D. Help us about that.

J.R.C. In chapter 11 it says, "If therefore ye, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" v 13. So if you have the Holy Spirit you soon have Christ in your heart: in fact it works the other way, if Christ is in your heart, you will soon have the Holy Spirit. I point this out because there is a line drawn, because these persons in chapter 11 were denying the power of the Lord Jesus and connecting it to Beelzebub.

A.D.P. That is helpful to see. Here I think it is that we should not be confined in our outlook as to what may be amongst us. Thank God for what is amongst us, but I was very much helped by that word at the end of John's gospel, "Peter, seeing him, says to Jesus, Lord, and what of this man?" Well, we may say that, What of this man, that man or the other man. You hear of things happening, of the gospel preachings being effective, persons saved - what of this man? And what the Lord says is, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me", v 22. That is the Lord's injunction to us, is it not? Maybe this would encourage us not to be sectarian and narrow in our thoughts but to be thankful for what God is doing.

A.S.H. The Lord Jesus is in control at all times. Here it says, "And Jesus, seeing the reasoning of their heart"; He knows our hearts, He is a heart-knowing God. These persons that the disciples saw, the Lord knew that they were doing, He was acquainted with their movements. Think of Him as in control at all times, "his departure which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem", not only that something might happen but He knew what is going to happen. He is in control at all times.

A.P.D. He is. I would like to finish with the impression of what the Lord can do for us in our circumstances. He is able for it: He is able to restore the child to his father. Would that that might come home to each of us. Many of us are going through much in relation to our families. What the Lord can do if we beseech Him and if we believe, if there is faith with us. I think this is in the setting of the days of His receiving up, and I would suggest that, in the setting of the days of our receiving up, what the Lord is ready to do for those that have faith. Would that be right to say?

G.A. In Mark 5 we see the ruler of the synagogue and how the Lord came in. He healed the daughter of the ruler of the synagogue. There was much tumult, but the Lord says, "Damsel, I say to thee, Arise. And immediately the damsel arose and walked," and then it says that He charged them that no one should know this; and He desired that something should be given her to eat. This food is still coming down at the present time, would you say?

A.P.D. It is available and surely our young ones need food, spiritual food. There should be food for them in the meetings. In the breaking of bread there is food, there is what will build us up constitutionally. In Matthew says, "Take eat" Matt 26: 26, it has in mind there that the Supper is food. So there is food to sustain life, to sustain our young life amongst us. I trust that we might get some impressions of what is available to us in the days of our receiving up. We are not going from degradation to glory, we are to go from glory to glory. It is what is morally glorious being worked our among the saints.

 

NEW YORK

7 June 1997

 

Key to initials

G.Ashby (New York); J.R.Cumming (Edinburgh); A.P.Devenish (Edmonton); C.F.Dadd (Painfield); A.S.Hinkson (New York); D.McFarlane (New York); L.McFarlane (New York);
J.A.Petersen (Plainfield); K.N.Pye (New York); L.D.Phillips (New York)