THE HEADSHIP OF CHRIST

Genesis 1: 14–19, 26, 27; 2: 18–20; Colossians 1: 15–20; Ephesians 1: 20–23

NMcK It is in mind that we should enquire into the thought of headship. These sections we read in Genesis, Colossians and Ephesians run alongside of each other. I had not in mind to follow them through consecutively but to go through Genesis with Colossians and Ephesians in mind as they bring out the great truth as to the matter in regard to the present day. It seems to me that headship was always in the mind of God and these scriptures point towards it. We see in Genesis that God intended to have a man at the centre of His creation to influence and characterise everything and hold all things in relation to Himself. I think we can see that even before the thoughts of government, kingly rule, or other matters were brought in by God in order to hinder sin and to help man in view of sin coming in—before that came about God had in mind that there should be a blessed influence and regulation and therefore character formed from one Man whom He would set out as Head. It is difficult at the present time to see the full force of what will be in the world to come when Christ is Head publicly, because at the present time we are surrounded by authorities and systems which do not acknowledge Christ as Head, and therefore men come under a wrong influence and persons are led in a wrong direction and take character from another head. If you look at, for example, countries and governments in them (while we accept abstractly that the governments are of God) we can see that a corrupt administration will result in corruption right down to the very root, the very core of that country; from the top to the bottom it will be corrupt. On the other hand, a relatively godly administration, will result in a more morally aware and upright society. At work, if you have a difficult or corrupt head in the company, it works its way right down to the man who sweeps the shop floor, and the character and influence of the company tends that way. Whereas if you have a godly man at the head of a company I believe it would work the other way, the company would tend to be more moral. I think in that example you can see how God had in mind that it would be necessary in His wisdom everything that was of God would be set out in the head. Everything that man would need by way of resource and influence would be set out in the head, and the whole world would take character from that, and so it is God’s means of regulating everything, because regulation is not a wrong thought. Man should be able to see from the physical creation, that if a law was repealed, for example, the law of gravity, the whole creation would fall into complete chaos and disruption. The physical creation could hardly exist for a minute if the laws that God has set in it were repealed. How can man not see that the moral creation is the same? That it requires regulation, it requires laws, not from the point of view of the laws given to Israel, but by the way we see it in Genesis 1: 14 as the sun; it is a law of attraction and beneficence. So we get the thought in the sun and the moon, headship known there. And then you get the thought of man in God’s image having dominion, the thought of how man was in the pinnacle of God’s creation, for God had in mind that man would have dominion over the whole creation; God will head up all things in the Christ, every principality and authority. Then God bringing the creatures to Adam, the great intelligent feature of the man in headship, that man had qualities and features that were given to him by God, and that God delights to see how they would work out. Just one other thing, in Genesis we see these matters before sin came in, which means, as I understand it, that it is not a matter of God’s ways, it is a matter of God’s purposes. God sets His purposes out here before sin comes in, and they show what God will always have eternally; but sin has come in, and the result of sin having come in the great matter of headship has been attacked, and it has resulted in a terrible breakdown. Man and woman was the first place where it was attacked, man listened to the woman when he should have listened to God.

I think it would be good to establish the truth and see the greatness of it firstly, and then we can work it out in our own souls as to our own responsibility as to headship, whether we acknowledge Christ as Head, whether we are vitally part of the body, whether we can see for ourselves the greatness of what Christ has set on.

JW These scriptures bring out that the fulness of what is seen in Christ as Head requires the assembly, “let them have dominion”, and you get the moon. Is it important to keep that in mind?

NMcK It struck me in considering the greatness of the headship of Christ, that God always had in mind man and woman, and that should set the matter out clearly. I think it involves that the influence of Christ is to be marked by the mutual affection between man and woman, and all that the man and woman relationship sets out towards God—that the influence on the whole world, is to be marked by that blessed relationship, Christ and the assembly.

JW It shows the greatness of the things into which we are called, and do you think if the assembly is competent to have part in sharing the headship with Christ in the coming day, that would raise an exercise with us to be more conversant with His headship now?

NMcK I think so because it affects every aspect of our lives. While in the headship of Christ and the assembly, there is a peculiar and beautiful example, the thought of headship is to affect our family life and our individual life, we are to acknowledge Him as Head; He is to be everything to us.

DJW It is interesting the way Genesis 1, verse 16 is put. It says, “And God made the two great lights”. That is, I take it, a reference typically to Christ and the assembly. Then it says, the great light to rule the day “. That is the benign influence of Christ Himself, “and the small light to rule the night”, that is, in the assembly, in the time of Christ’s absence, His headship is to be seen and operating.

NMcK We are here during the night of the Lord’s absence and rejection, but we are in the gain of the sun. To put it

simply for the young ones, during the night the moon is still in the gain of the sun. During this present period the assembly is still in the gain of the headship of Christ, and therefore that reflected light must come out in the assembly. The great order and regulation and attractiveness of Christ, if you want to find it, you must find it there, do you think?

AJMcS Before we can touch the headship of Christ in relation to the assembly it must all be in relation to His headship as set out in Romans 5, do you think?

NMcK Yes, there is a moral road to it; you get in Romans 5 another head. It has helped me in seeing that there is one Head for man. I used to think that there were two heads and that when I became converted I came under the headship of Christ, whereas previously I had been under the headship of Adam, but it is not the case. I had previously rejected the headship of Christ because He is the only Head.

AJMcS As I understand it God has only one Head before Him and that Head is Christ. As we often say, you can go to a man in the street and ask him if he has submitted himself to the Head, but I think as we come under the blessing of owning Christ as the Head you can receive the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, and thus be brought into the body and know His headship in relation to the assembly.

NMcK Mr Taylor pointed out that although we do come to things on the moral road, before we begin to see the greatness of Christ as Head we actually begin to see what is in the saints. In Romans 12 we begin to see that there is a body of believers in Christ, and then we begin to see the greatness of One who is over it all.

QP In John’s gospel the Lord Jesus several times presents Himself as the light of the world, but in Matthew 5 He says, “Ye are the light of the world” (Matthew 5: 14), as though there is a moral working out of this in the gospels, do you think?

NMcK John has been said to be an astronomical gospel, everything revolves around Christ as the great centre. You get more a moral line in the other gospels.

QP I wondered if Matthew is a counterpart, “Ye are the light of the world”.

NMcK Yes, that is very helpful, I had not seen it quite in that way.

PJW Paul says, that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God”, Ephesians 3: 10. That is in the present time, is it not?

NMcK It is obviously so that angelic and other beings can see what is of God is set out in the assembly. For the sake of the young ones I would say that to see it clearly, we should apprehend the world to come when the whole world will not be under Satan any more, it will be under the beneficent and perfect influence of Christ. The world will be set right, everything here, the principalities and authorities will be under Christ, every matter will be under Him and the assembly will be there mediatorially with Him in it. We can see it clearly there, and once we begin to see what it will be, we must then begin to see that at the present time we must be in the gain of that while He is rejected. Every matter that will be seen in the world to come, and seen perfectly in Christ and the assembly, must be seen here now if there is any concrete form of it at all, and even angelic beings are to see it in the assembly.

JMW Paul says to the Corinthians, “Christ is the head of every man”, 1 Corinthians 11: 3. It is not ‘should be’. He is.

NMcK Paul says, “Christ is the head of every man”, and he gives the order of creation. God, Christ, man and woman, and it precedes the thought as to the Supper, the breaking of bread. Even in regard to that, in setting up the order in regard to these matters where Christ and the assembly would be known, the divine order is necessary. It is given here as an order by way of being held in attraction to Christ. The stars, the moon cannot go out of order, they are held in relation to Christ, do you think?

JMW Yes, I thought of that, but I wonder about the scripture in Corinthians which goes on to say, Christ’s head, God. How does that bear on what we are speaking about?

NMcK I just felt it bore on this section in Genesis. Christ and the assembly will fill this moral universe that God has in mind, not exactly the physical created universe which we see now, but the whole moral universe that God has in mind. There will be a centre point, an attraction point there, but the end of it is that the glory of God will be known. God is the great end in view.

JW It is a very great matter to contemplate, that there was a Man here in Christ whose head was God, so that it implies that He was here, a subject Man and getting His direction from God. That would help us in our relations with Christ, do you think, to be subject to Him and get our directions from Him?

NMcK I think it is helpful to see that Christ, when He was here, was a Man who acknowledged God as His head where Israel did not. He was here in perfection, a dependent subject Man.

PM Is it indicated in this verse, “And God set them in the expanse of the heavens”? God set them there. He set Christ down at His own right hand and gave Him a name which is above every name. Everything flows from God, that it is flowing through Christ. He has set them, the assembly is a heavenly vessel, but also He is a heavenly Man. Is that so?

NMcK Exactly. As soon as you come into the gospels you begin to get the unfolding of the heavenly side of things, that things are going to be regulated from heaven. God had it in mind that this was the way in which He would set out. He would produce a whole creation teeming with life and vitality that would reflect Himself, but the principal way in which it would be done would be through Christ and through the assembly. Is that right?

PM I am sure it is and I wondered if it was borne out in Revelation 21, “And the nations shall walk by its light” (Revelation 21: 24). The assembly has been enlightened, not exactly shone upon but enlightened. She is of that character, and the nations shall walk by its light.

NMcK So while it is the moon just now, it is not the same radiant brightness as the sun’s beam, but it will be seen in that character of radiance, a vessel filled with the light of God. All that has been made known of God during this dispensation will shine out in the assembly in the day to come.

RDP He has set them in the expanse to give light on the earth and to rule; the two things there, light and rule. Could you say something about those two things, light first and rule?

NMcK God is going to regulate and have things in order through these two matters. The first thing that God does is to introduce light because without light we are in complete darkness, we would not know what to do at all. It speaks about how God brought order out of chaos in this chapter. The first thing is that He makes things clear, brings in clarity. It is an attractive sort of light, it shines on us and then rule flows out of it and regulates, it forms the way we think, and therefore what we do and how we walk.

RDP It is interesting that the light comes first and then rule. It is not arbitrary rule in that sense, because the light has shone and then the rule comes in during the day.

NMcK I do not know if we grasp just how much we are held by darkness. As long as we are in the world we are under the influence of its darkness, it holds us. It says, “to give light on the earth, and to rule during the day”. It seems as if the light is a way in which God regulates us and forms us. He does not come to us by a work of power insofar as to subjugate us; it is the thought of subjection, the thought of attractive influence that will draw us to Himself and attract us into these things by showing us how great divine things are.

RDP How God works is to enlighten man. He sheds abroad His love in the heart by the Holy Spirit. Some of man’s systems rule in an arbitrary way without any understanding of its source or purpose, but God brings in light first, then rule.

NMcK God meets what Satan has brought in by what is of Himself, to prove it is superior; He meets darkness by light to prove that light is superior to darkness and He will show that out in an eternal day. He meets confusion by bringing in clarity; He meets the awful state of animosity by bringing in His thoughts as to His love; He meets these things in that way. Do you not think He has done it with us?

RDP Yes, I do. These early chapters in Genesis are very important. They are basic in principle. I suppose sometimes we might seek to impose things, but the first thing here is light and enlightenment and then rule.

PJW Do you think we see it by example with Saul of Tarsus, the light shone round about him and then he said, “What shall I do, Lord?”, Acts 22: 10?

NMcK The light shone in his heart. It is difficult to say what experience he went through, but tremendous light came in and then there was the darkness, and then the scales fell from his eyes and he saw. There was a period of exercise in view of the light that had come in, but then he saw things and he began to preach the Son of God.

JW In connection with the lights in the expanse they were to divide between the day and the night. God earlier divided between light and darkness. What would you say about that?

NMcK God cannot work in darkness, and it applies even to ourselves. We need to lay the matters out before Him and get clear of the darkness, and leave God room to operate.

JW We get things clearly in our souls that way, we see things as they really are, the division between light and darkness. The great feature seen in the assembly would be that of discernment.

NMcK I would say for the benefit and encouragement of the younger ones, very little confirms the soul so much as light from God flooding into it in regard to any matter at all. If you have an impression, some light from God comes into your soul, and immediately it links you with God, and dispels the darkness. If you can see a thing as God sees it some precious light comes in; what a tremendous effect it has in your soul. You may be reading a book of ministry and suddenly you just get a touch, a little light in your soul. There is nothing more confirming or more blessed than when God speaks to you with just a word from the Bible or ministry or some other way.

DJW We often say that God has set authority where it is most attractive, that is in the person of Christ, so that we come under His lordship with a view to moving on to His headship. Saul of Tarsus has been referred to and he was told to go into the city where he would be told what he must do. That would be this principle you are speaking of working out there, do you think?

NMcK There is a moral way for us to understand it and to get the gain of it. We cannot come under His headship if we do not accept His lordship. He has absolute authority over us, our whole body, everything. Christ has that authority, He owns us. We actually belong to Him, whether we are dead or whether we are alive, we are the Lord’s. We belong absolutely to Christ and He has all authority over us, but then the thought of headship seems to be that we are attracted to that blessed Man, whose sway will cover the whole earth and show God to everybody.

JW Does the thought of rule connected with headship operate more on the line of influence? In lordship it requires obedience, the commandments of the Lord are necessary, but does the thought of rule in connection with headship operate on the line of influence?

NMcK It seems to me there are two things, one is right and good influence, and the other side is that the effect of that influence is that we become characterised by what we see and what we are attracted to. If you are attracted to someone and esteem them very highly and covet their company and speak about them, you will be influenced by them and you will be characterised by them; eventually you will become like them, and it seems to me that that is the way the matter works out in regard to ourselves personally. In Colossians it says, “rejoicing and seeing your order”, Colossians 2: 5. They were all under the headship of Christ and therefore that order began to be seen. There was none of them acting out of place.

JW God has in mind an order of things that takes character from Christ; the whole universe will take character from Him, will it not?

NMcK I think that is why you have in the thought of headship that there is One whom we can look to, One who sets the whole matter out, everything that is for God.

MRC I wondered whether what was in mind was life. We have been taught that what is required for the maintenance of life is light, atmosphere and rule, but there are some beautiful touches here, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls” (Genesis 1: 20), and “Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind”, Genesis 1: 24. Then it says, “And God saw that it was good”, Genesis 1: 25. There was something intensely pleasing to God which was introduced here which was to be sustained through the supremacy of Christ.

NMcK While the first creation has fallen there is an analogy in it to another world. God’s world, a new creation where everything will be in accord with Christ, and which will be full of various fresh kinds of life which God will delight in.

JMW What do you understand by the thought of dominion? We have spoken of light and rule but is there something very attractive in the thought of the dominion, the man and the woman?

NMcK You mean there is an area where Christ has dominion, a whole area where His dominion is gladly owned? It seems to me to link up with what we had particularly in Ephesians where “he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body”. God has put Christ in that place of absolute headship over everything and every matter because of who Christ is. It begins with His being raised from among the dead; He is morally and personally suitable for that position.

JMW I like your example of the company that is headed by a person, and how that influence permeates downwards even to the man who is sweeping the floor. The thought of dominion and what we are speaking of is far higher than

that, of course, but I wondered whether the thought of dominion is seen in that, that the person at the head of the organisation, his dominion really covers every aspect of it.

NMcK That is why Ephesians is so full in its outline—every name named, every authority. It is also very practical because it is the same in our houses, where headship has to be acknowledged, and the matter of our influence and our character has to be seen there. The thought is that the man is to influence and characterise the wife; that is God’s thought, so it should be seen there. I think one of Satan’s ways, and we have seen it recently, is that he is attacking even headship in the household and it is a terrible attack. It is not thought of at all in the world.

JMW What you say as to the households of the saints is encouraging, and we can be encouraged as seeing that there are these areas in the houses where Christ has dominion and there is testimony to that, do you think?

NMcK We need to remember that the man is the head of the house, and therefore he has responsibility in that place. He has to characterise and influence that house, and as he acknowledges Christ as Head he would do that.

GCB It has been pointed out that even though the wife is more spiritual than the husband, in Scripture the example is that she recognises headship.

NMcK That is right. Paul does say, “I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man”, 1 Timothy 2: 12.

AJMcS That is interesting because it is not only what is creational there, but it is the order in the transgressions as well. Not simply a question of Adam being created before Eve, but the question of the things being worked out before the fall took place. Do you think there is something in the order here, image, likeness and then dominion?

NMcK You get the thought of representation in image, which Christ is—every feature of God is seen in Christ. He expressed God fully Himself; but what we see in Christ is that He is suitable to have dominion as a result of being His image and likeness.

AJMcS I think it is something that would need to be enquired into. I just thought that the Lord Jesus was morally suitable to take up this place of dominion, and the assembly as taking character from Him to be with Him in that.

NMcK It seems to me that in Romans you see one who is morally suitable, the righteous Man; and in Colossians you see Him as personally suitable, what He is personally, the Head of the body, all that He is in His person. You see these two features, He created all things as given in Colossians, and there are many ways in which these scriptures show the suitability of that One to be Head. It seems to me that when Christ became incarnate and came here, Adam could no longer be head. If Christ is here surely Christ must be Head. Adam could not stand in the presence of Christ, could he?

GCB Would you say a little more as to when Adam lost his headship and when God brought in Christ?

NMcK I am looking for help myself. I can certainly see that when Christ came in He must be Head, and it was originally the thought of God that Christ should be Head. Adam failed in headship in the first matter that came in in regard to Eve. Eve offered him the fruit and he ate. He should have resorted to God as Head, and Eve should have resorted to Adam as head. While Adam is a figure of the head as it says in Romans, I am not sure how much he continued as representing that to God. He was set up as that initially but he failed in it at the very beginning.

PM Was Adam a fallen head, Christ an exalted head? “For as in the Adam all die”—that is the character because he is a fallen head—“thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive”, 1 Corinthians 15: 22.

NMcK The head in that relation has a responsibility; he represents man to God as a head of man towards God.

AJMcS Although Adam is set aside as head, as Christ is the Head of every man, nevertheless the feature of Adam is still found in every person, particularly in those who have not submitted to Christ as Head. From Romans 5, verse 12 onwards to the end of Romans 8, we can practically be set free from that by the power of the Spirit, do you think?

NMcK Absolutely. And in 1 Corinthians 15 in regard to that, “The first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit” (1 Corinthians 15: 45). That must be Christ there, Christ is brought in as Head, He is the One who is able to quicken and bring in life.

RHB From the epistle to the Colossians we get the expression there about holding fast the Head. Can you help us as to how we do that? I am asking because I think we all feel the full force of what you are saying as to the breakdown that has come into marriages, which can be traced to failure in headship. Also in our comings together is the headship of Christ just something we speak about, or is it something we experience; do we act under His influence? I find that very searching. You get the very practical word there in Colossians about holding fast the Head. I was just wondering if you could give us a practical word as to how we could be helped to do that.

NMcK Colossians begins to unfold matters as to the kingdom of the Son of His love, where we are brought into divine things and how we are moved in our affections. But it seems as we recognise what we are in Christ, what we are under Christ’s headship, and that there is another system, that the exercise to own His headship properly and truly involves we must be completely free of every other system, and of every influence of Adam, and therefore we will come wholly under His headship. It says, “ye are complete in him”, in Colossians 2: 10. One of the points of the head in Colossians is that we have no need to look anywhere else, and if we are to be under His headship properly we must not look anywhere else. Every other system and every other man must be judged, and so we must come under Christ as Head and hold Him. We do not want to get away from that, to slip back into things as the saints at Colosse were tending to do.

RDP Must we always remember the great bond of affection in this? This is not just another set of rules as compared with man’s, but the whole matter of headship involves affection, and it involves affection both ways. This is not something that is arbitrary in that sense, but love is the moving power, and holding fast the Head, I think, is not a sort of desperation. I would think that it is in bonds of the deepest love, and surely, as we have spoken about image and likeness, if this truth is seen it must make a difference in persons. They will become influenced, they will become marked by affection, they will be marked by love’s way, because even in the Christian profession this has become corrupted, even among those whom we have known.

NMcK What you say is right, the kingdom thought is more the thought of regulation and rule, that we would desire in every way to please Christ because we belong to Him—but as Head we love Him, we are attracted to that blessed One and we do not want anything outside of Him.

QP Is this where we really need John’s ministry as well as Paul’s? I noticed recently a reading of Mr Taylor’s on John 15 where the Lord speaks of Himself as the true vine. He says, “Abide in me and I in you” (John 15: 4), and “abide in my love” (John 15: 9), and what comes out there is that that is the moral working out of headship in the enjoyment of it.

NMcK It is being held in Christ and His love. I feel for myself that it is an exercising matter, How much am I held by the love of Christ? We can go on with outward matters and outward order and things may seem right outwardly; even in Laodicea they would seem reasonably correct outwardly, but the great matter is to be influenced and held by the love of Christ.

PM Is that why Paul sets out the distinctive glories of the Lord Jesus in this first chapter in Colossians that He might stand out in our affections as One who is beyond compare? He becomes easy to hold fast to.

NMcK Yes. I think if we see the greatness of Christ, and all that will be in a day to come, we must see that we must be in the gain of that now; it is available now. I think we live in a peculiarly advantageous time to be in the gain of these tremendous glories now. We can hardly take in the glory that will pertain to the world to come, but we have the advantage and the privilege of being in the gain and enjoyment of that at the present time, when every influence, every authority and power would attempt to attack God.

JW What better Head could we have than Christ? Does holding fast the Head involve that I find everything in Him, I am satisfied in Him, He becomes my life?

NMcK I am sure that is right. Our life “is hid with the Christ in God” (Colossians 3: 3) is another area, another system, another Man, and our life is entirely in relation to that, all that we do; therefore we become characterised by it.

MRC The sun and moon really suggest something that would be rather distant but God has come in in a Man, He has expressed Himself in a Man and drawn near to us in a Man, One who is so intensely attractive to us. Therefore His headship becomes not arbitrary but a matter of love. It is the Person who makes it so attractive.

NMcK We see, as we go on in our Christian life, how personally Christ is attractive to us and we come under that sway. It is a tremendous thing just to give ourselves over to that to enjoy and accept it. There is nothing else greater than that, His influence over me.

AM The danger in Colossians is the mind of man working. As Christ becomes attractive to me it is His mind that I would seek to govern me.

NMcK Yes, so where we read as to Adam naming the animals, we see that one of the principal things that God set out in man was his great intelligence; that man was to be superior not only in that line of the affectionate side, and the dominion side being made known, but in intelligence. So Christ has been made to us wisdom from God. I think it has been pointed out in ministry that one of the prime features of headship is the matter of wisdom, that it is available in Christ, and therefore we should reject the flesh in every form, especially that form amongst us, man’s intelligence in the things of God. It has always been hateful to God, the Philistine mind.

DJH So it is in the context of the references to the wisdom of God in Corinthians “we have the mind of Christ”, 1 Corinthians 2: 16. That is a tremendous thing, is it not?

NMcK God has set these matters in the assembly. One of the prime thoughts in the assembly is intelligence; the assembly is to act intelligently for Christ at the present time. The woman of worth acts in such a way that her husband is known in the gates. She is seen at the present time in the assembly, who acts in such a way that divine Persons should be known there.

DJH That is Ephesians 3 what is made known to the principalities in the heavenlies in the assembly. It is amazing to think that we have part in that and it is very searching, but nevertheless the truth is stated that we have the mind of Christ.

NMcK And everything flows from the Head, the great place where wisdom is available and everything available in Christ as Head. He holds everything for man.

JSG In the verses in Colossians 1 there are several mentions of “he” emphatically. I wondered if we could go back to the close of verse 13, “translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love”, there is One especially the object of the Father’s love in whom all these things are for us, for the assembly.

NMcK It seems to concentrate on the greatness of Christ in that aspect of the truth, how personally great Christ is.

JSG Is one question for us then, whether in order to seek participation in the gain of this wonderful influence of Christ, we are maintained in the consciousness of His love?

NMcK We can fall into doubts and anxieties if we continually question our own love, it is not a stable base to work from, to worry about whether we love Christ enough; but if we feed on His love we will be sustained in that and we will love Him. Feeding on the love of Christ produces an affectionate response in our hearts, and prayer—just to speak to the Father as to the love of Christ produces an effect in our hearts.

DJH Does that link with what you referred to earlier as to 1 Corinthians 11, where you get the matter of headship set out, then it goes on to the Supper? It brings us immediately into an area where we can prove afresh from week to week, together as in the assembly, the love of Christ. That seems to be the working out of this, does it?

NMcK I think so and also the matters that are put in order in Corinth in view of the Supper. They were disorderly and it did not reflect God, and it was said that it was not even the Lord’s supper. Paul was free to say that it was not the Lord’s supper but he puts matters in order, the whole matter is set out and regulated then, and they come under a right influence.

DJH I thought it was a provision for us from week to week to have that fresh experience of the love of Christ.

NMcK Yes, to come under that influence. It says, “the Christ loved us, and delivered himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour”, Ephesians 5: 2. I am struck with that, the blessed love of Christ towards us was precious to God. God saw something in it that set out a feature that would be seen in man and woman.

JW To know the love of Christ practically and be conscious of it we need to be near Him, do we? To know it I must be in His presence.

NMcK Is that what our brother was bringing to light in regard of John 15, “Abide in me and I in you”, and “abide in my love”?

JW You know a person’s love because you are intimate with it, you are near them.

NMcK Yes, it must be that holding fast the Head involves maintaining intimate relationships with the Head, with Christ and therefore being attracted to Him. We must be careful what influence we come under.

JSG Is it beneficial for us when we are younger to think in a simple way of testing things as to whether they are pleasing to Christ? The One who has become my Saviour is the test as to practical things in every circumstance, would you say?

NMcK Yes. You are relating that as to Christ being Head of every man?

JSG I was thinking of the practical way in which being in the gain of His headship works out.

NMcK We desire to please Him because we love Him.

AJMcS Does that bring in Romans 7, “to be to another” (Romans 7: 4)? I was struck by reading Mr Raven during the week that most of us are very much under law. We go to the Scriptures for direction and things of that character, but the real thing is to hold ourselves in the presence of Christ and then get His judgment as to matters, do you think?

NMcK I did wonder about Romans 7 in regard to the new husband and the thought of headship, but certainly we find everything there in Christ. Everything is available in Christ, He is not a hard husband, and therefore it is headship in which we find everything in One who loves us.

AJMcS The Scriptures are helpful for keeping us from going wrong, but we are looking for more than simply that we do not go wrong, we are looking to enjoy and appreciate the love of Christ, do you think?

NMcK Yes, “the Son shall set you free”, John 8: 36. Scriptures keep us free from error but the Person sets us really free.

PJW Would it be right to say that it is not my love for Him that keeps me right, but the appreciation of His love for me?

NMcK The measure is Christ’s love for us, if we feed on that it will keep us close. Is that what you had in mind?

PJW Yes, I was thinking of Ephesians 5, “Husbands, love your own wives, even as the Christ also loved the assembly” (Ephesians 5: 25). That is the standard. If any of us fail in headship maybe it is because we have failed in love in some way, do you think?

NMcK It brings the thought of Christ and the assembly into the marriage bond, that it is to be characterised by that; it is a high level of matters.

DJW The springboard of this seems to relate to what is very basic to conversion, do you think? Paul says “who has delivered us from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love”. That is it really in a nutshell, his own conversion, then he goes on to say, “in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins”. Our love for Christ initially relates to the forgiveness of our sins, but as being maintained in that love and abiding in it, we enter into the side of things you are speaking of, His influence, His headship. Is that how it works?

NMcK We have to grow, do we not? First of all we are just thankful to be saved, that Another has taken up our liabilities and saved us from our sins, but as we grow we become interested in who this blessed Man is, and we begin to see then how great He is and how worthy He is! I think then we can begin to see that believers are bound together, they are a body, then we begin to see that He is head of that body, that not only is there One great enough to be Head of the body, but that everything has been given to Him, and that the assembly is given to Him to share in His universal headship.

PM Is it so that in seeking to speak to Him about every little detail in our lives, He delights to speak to us about the details in His life?

NMcK Yes, that is a very practical matter. I am trying to think of an example of that in the gospels. I suppose you see it in Matthew 11 at the time He had been rejected by Israel that He resorted to the Father as Lord of the heaven and the earth, He resorted to great divine thoughts, did He not?

PM It is open to us all. We often encourage the young ones to speak to the Lord about practical things, but the danger in the material world is that we may lose the joy of that, but as we speak to Him simply about little details we find that He finds His delight in speaking to us about His life.

JW Does that work out practically then in that His interests become my interests?

NMcK Yes, I think we get that in Colossians. Our life becomes another life, our life is now hid with the Christ in God.

AJMcS Does that include the service of God? What I mean by that is we are covering the side of headship in perhaps its administrative bearing in the best possible sense, but does the headship of Christ not operate from the Lord’s supper into the service of God? I thought it might be helpful if you could say something as to how we could prove that.

NMcK Perhaps we know the headship of Christ particularly there. It has been pointed out in ministry that the great thought was that Israel should make David king in Jerusalem, that they were all united in that, and that even aforetime they recognised that he led them.

AJMcS I wondered whether at the end of 1 Chronicles we see headship typified in David in the way that he himself praises God, then he tells the people to praise God. In other words he sets on the particular line that gives character to the service of praise.

NMcK In a sense you get the thought more of headship once you get Solomon’s reign, because you get order and happiness with the great influence that Solomon had, even over the queen of Sheba, there is a happy atmosphere in the house, “happy are these thy servants”, 2 Chronicles 9: 7. There was nothing to put down. Solomon had dealt with matters. But also David does rise at the end of his life to take on the service of song. The singers and trumpeters and all the priestly offices, every office was filled out in relation to David, and how he set it on as typical of Christ, and you can see in type the body functioning, everything is set in relation to David and everything takes character from that.

TJH Is this involved in Ephesians 1, “head over all things to the assembly”? I was thinking of His headship in the service of praise, and it is in the midst of the assembly that He sings these praises. He sings them through those who are assembled there for that very purpose.

NMcK Yes, the assembly is used for the service of song to God. I think it shows us how great the assembly is in the mind of God. In this scripture as well it has been given to Christ for this purpose. It is the evidence of the greatness of God through the eternal ages.

AJMcS I was going to enquire as to whether the aspect of the headship of Christ in the service of God is an eternal thought, that it is publicly the aspect of the headship of Christ comes to an end, at the end of the world to come?

NMcK I could not be too definite on that, only I can see that having these truths brought before us in the early chapters of Genesis, where it is a matter of the purpose of God, seems to indicate that in the eternal day God will be glorified in Christ and the assembly, and that influence will cover the whole creation, new creation really.

AJMcS I think that primarily Ephesians 1 relates to the world to come, but nevertheless the relationship that Christ has as Head in relation to the assembly, which is His body, in order that God’s heart might be fully satisfied for all eternity, implies that the assembly receives impulse from its Head, do you think?

NMcK A brother has helped me recently on this scripture in Ephesians in regard to the headship of Christ and the assembly, “and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body”. He said that that relationship between Christ and the assembly was to influence and characterise the whole world to come. God had that in mind, that the blessed link and relationship of love and affection would be seen by every principality and authority; every person would be able to see and appreciate the blessed relationship between Christ and the assembly that is being formed at the present time. I find that very helpful, to absorb a little that the world to come is an area which will come under a tremendously beneficial sunshine and influence, and also an influence of a blessed relationship that bonds Christ and the assembly. We tend to think of the world to come as to being a matter when the Spirit subjugates men, and there will not be any evil allowed to arise, but it will be a time of prosperity and enjoyment, when persons will be able to see God’s purposes in Christ and the assembly.

JRW Is that influence that brings in the regulation? You hesitate about the word regulation but we can understand that but it is a right thought and we can see how it works out through that influence.

DJH I was thinking of back to Genesis 1, “Let them have dominion”. That would be the expression of it.

NMcK So we often say that we are complete in Him, and that Christ is complete in the assembly. The matter of the man and the woman was God’s thought in making man, that He would be fully represented in the dual thought of man and woman. That was a full representation of God.

DJH We have referred to it, but God spoke about making man a helpmate, his like. That would all be of that thought.

NMcK He found nothing in the rest of creation that was suitable to him. I think in the gospels you see some touch of that when the Gentiles are introduced in each gospel; you see the Lord’s delight and joy in the centurion, “Not even in Israel have I found so great faith”, Matthew 8: 10. The gospels do not over emphasise things or sentimentalise things, but in John, when the Greeks came, representing the Gentiles, the Lord makes reference to the great result of His death, leading to the truth of the assembly.

QP Do we need to get through to the positive blessing of the principle of regulation rather than just seeing it negatively, which we could naturally? There is a verse also in John 15, “If ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love” (John 15: 10). The truth of this was morally set on in the Lord Jesus Himself.

NMcK Yes, you cannot think of anything that characterises God not being associated with regulation because He is the great God of order. The difficulty in our minds is that we associate regulation with discipline, but God associates regulation with the great matter of influence, and coming under the blessed Man who has in every way glorified Him.

PM In Thessalonians Paul speaks of the mystery of lawlessness which already works. Will God bring out what He has wrought in mystery as to Christ and the assembly, which will be seen to be superior to every evil influence that has operated on the earth?

NMcK So God meets everything that Satan has brought in, and He will show how He has met it in Christ and the assembly; it may be seen now, as it says, “rejoicing and seeing your order” (Colossians 2: 5), and “the love which you have towards all the saints”, Colossians 1: 4. If you wanted to see the character of God you could have gone to Colosse and you would have seen it there.

PM Yes, it is wonderful that God will display to a universe that He has a vessel in which everything is taking its character from Christ, in which order and light and love are displayed. He will be wondered at in those that have believed. What a moment it will be.

NMcK So it says, “whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of his coming”, 2 Thessalonians 2: 8. Revelation gives us a great matter in chapter 17 of Jezebel and the beast with the ten horns and seven heads. Things will head up in regard of evil and there is a head in regard to evil, but God has a greater Man, One who is superior to it.

PM God had this in view even before the mystery of lawlessness and the working of iniquity came on the earth, that He was going to display to a wondering universe what He wrought through Christ and in the assembly?

TJH Should we discern between what comes from the true Head and what is worked out from man’s clever theology.

NMcK So the church of Rome has a head, and the church of England has a head, other than Christ. It is a sober matter to see how God must feel about that, but He has set His head in the centre of the universe, available for everyone.

Reading at Havering
21 June 2008

KEY TO INITIALS

R. H. Brown

N. McKay

Q. Poore

G. C. Bywater

A. J. McSeveney

J. M. Walkinshaw

M. R. Cook

A. Martin

J. Walkinshaw

J. S. Gray

Martin

D. J. Wright

T. J. Harvey

R. D. Plant

J. Wright

D. J. Hutson

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