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SONSHIP

P.v.d.B. The Lord might help us in our enquiry together, in the current condition of things, as to the liberty of sonship and how we can be maintained in a way in which obligations can be met and the testimony proceed in liberty. Sonship involves liberty. It is the greatest privilege we have, to be associated with the Son of God. Union is another matter we experience involving the Spirit of God. It is a great matter that the service of God should be sustained, beloved brethren, at the present time, and that there are the conditions in which it can proceed and what is for God may be maintained in the Spirit. I think we need to realise what infinite resources we have in the blessed Holy Spirit. In Matthew 17 the Lord anticipated Peter as he might have brought the situation into bondage. Matthew is the administrative gospel and shows us how the testimony will go through and how the Lord is able for any situation that arises amongst us. The Lord is never to the wall in any matter. The word to Peter is "Then are the sons free". I think we need to discern the things that are not related to the Spirit of God giving rise to the creditor to make claims, and to see the resources we have in the Spirit of God and what is related to the Spirit, an d how t hat sets us in liberty. I thought the Lord might help us on those lines.

E.C.B. In both these scriptures persons do not become sons as a result of the transactions that take place but they are sons and are to be brought into the fulness of the blessing and the liberty which sonship implies. Is that right?

P.v.d.B. That is right. I think we need to be concerned about this being maintained amongst us so that the sons may not be taken away. If the creditor comes in God will be robbed of His portion. You see it in Galatians how because of certain things the creditor came in and made claims, but the answer is in sonship and in the Spirit. It says "because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father", Gal 4: 6.

E.M.W. Just before that he says "ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus", chap 3: 26. That would confirm what Mr Burr said earlier. But is your concern that we should be brought into the affections and liberty that are proper to sonship?

P.v.d.B. Yes. The prodigal son was a son all the way, but he was not in the dignity and in the enjoyment of what his privilege was until he was brought into the father's presence.

E.P. Why do you think it is that the woman speaks of her two children but the man of God speaks of the sons?

P.v.d.B. There has been a history in the revival; many generations have preceded us and there has been piety: "Thy servant my husband is dead, and thou knowest that thy servant feared Jehovah". There has been much in the way of piety amongst the saints. I wish there was the same piety today that there has been. Mr Stoney complained in his day that with more light there was less piety, and I think we need to be concerned, in view of the continuation and completion of the testimony at the present time; that we take account of what there has been in the way of piety amongst us. Here the servant died, but then there is no reason why things should not go through, and the answer is in the Spirit, the Spirit of sonship, the Spirit of adoption.

H.A.H. Is it interesting that in the last part of John 4 the father, the courtier, and the servant refer to the child, but the Lord's word is "Go, thy son lives" (v 50)?

P.v.d.B. Sonship is the great thing that relates to God's purpose and we need the sense of what our privilege is in sonship and in union, for, in meeting any situation in responsibility here, it is in view of the service of God; "Let my son go, that he may serve me", Exod 4: 23. God is to be served in liberty.

A.J.E.W. It is very attractive how, after those references that you spoke of in Galatians, the end of the letter seems to contemplate active relations with the Spirit from our side. So you have the expression "Walk in the Spirit" (chap 5: 16); then "If we live by the Spirit, let us walk also by the Spirit" (v 25), and then in the next chapter sowing to the Spirit. Those are matters that arise through divine grace on our side in our relations with Him, and it seems to bring out, does it not, the way in which the demands, the just demands of the position, are to be filled out and met?

P.v.d.B. I am sure that is right. It would be related to living on the rest, would it not? "Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy sons on the rest".

J.M. Does the reference in Romans 8 to the Spirit of adoption show that there is more than the title; there is really the enjoyment of it; "whereby we cry, Abba, Father". That is in a chapter that follows the moral exercises of that section and the righteous requirements of the law being fulfilled in us by the Spirit. I wondered if that is the way through to the enjoyment of sonship.

P.v.d.B. That is right; you get fulfilled responsibility there. It is by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus that we are set free from the law of sin and death, and that involves glorious liberty.

E.C.B. Does the thought of "profit from the Christ" in Galatians (chap 5: 4) enter into what you have in mind? If you are circumcised you are debtor to do the whole law; then he says negatively "Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him". Does the positive side of that, "profit from the Christ", enter into our apprehension of sonship?

P.v.d.B. I am sure it does. We see sonship in a supreme way in Christ Himself; He is the Son. I was struck this morning by that early reference in Matthew: "Out of Egypt have I called my son", chap 2: 15. It is remarkable that the Lord should be called out of Egypt. The scripture in Hosea where that is quoted from brings out how Israel was called out of Egypt. The things of the world tend to bondage, that is Egypt, and they are a great hindrance to the enjoyment of sonship. God could not be served in Egypt; Israel had to be brought out of Egypt.

R.T. Is there something distinctive about sonship in our time that exceeds every other dispensation? You were saying that God called Israel "my son", but in our day, God having been known in the relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is there power now to fulfil the responsibility you spoke of, so that the relationship should be enjoyed in a steady, even way?

P.v.d.B. That is right. We need to know more about the communion of the Holy Spirit and understand what the Spirit is related to - sonship, union, eternal life, and the truth also. Anything that is not of the truth cannot be related to the Spirit and makes way for the creditor. I think we need to have discernment as to what can be related to the Holy Spirit, and what it is that brings the position into bondage as not being related to the Spirit of God.

A.A.B. Is it some voice to us that it is the woman who raises the cry? What you are suggesting is really an intensely subjective matter. It is not only the light of sonship, to which, thank God, we have been recovered, but your references to the Spirit involve that a certain state is needed to meet obligations. I wondered if the woman, in that sense typical of the assembly, does not bring all of us into this matter. It is a crying matter.

P.v.d.B. Yes. She evidently did not think much of what she had. She said "Thy handmaid has not anything at all in the house but a pot of oil". But she had everything in the pot of oil. She had a goldmine there that would meet every debt; the creditor could be met and they could live on the rest. The testimony, as related to the Spirit, will continue to the end, and there is an infinite supply in the Holy Spirit to meet matters here.

A.A.B. Linking with what was said a moment ago as to sonship in the assembly, it is an exceedingly precious matter in that vessel, is it not, in that family? The Lord in Luke 7 gave the youth back to his mother.

P.v.d.B. That is important. We do not want to make young people a distinct class, I know that we should all be taking it to heart, but I think there is a great need for more liberty, and things that are hindering this liberty should be detected. We should come to it whether a thing is related to the Spirit of God or whether it is not. If it is not it will just hinder spiritual progress and it will hinder our liberty in the service of God. I think we need to rise to the dignity of our place in sonship in the presence of the Father in association with Christ.

F.C.M. "Shut the door upon thee and upon thy sons": is definite, decisive action to exclude all that would impede the Spirit?

P.v.d.B. That is right. So this is exclusive, and I think there are a good many things that we need to shut the door to; if we do not shut the door we are in danger of being robbed of the liberty of sonship.

J.C.E. Is the matter of vessels an indispensable one? Some of these may have been quite small and some larger, and when she returned the vessels, those from whom she had borrowed them would be interested to hear what she had to say, would they not?

P.v.d.B. I am sure. So there was no limitation on the part of the oil; the limitation was on the part of the vessels - what is available in the testimony at the present time. I think we need to be concerned to be filled with the Spirit. There is the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, a supply that will sustain the testimony in a day of small things. There is nothing that tests us so much as responsibility, and we need to see the resources that are available to meet matters of responsibility.

D.J.H. You get the reference at the beginning of Romans 7 to the husband dying, then that is leading on to being to another. Is that like this, crying to Elisha, the one who has the spirit of the man who has gone up?

P.v.d.B. That is very good. There is ministry in the power of the resurrection, the power which wrought in Christ when He was raised from among the dead, and it is towards us. The testimony is continued in the power of His resurrection, and Elisha's ministry is the Spirit's ministry in the light of the risen and ascended Man.

D.J.H. Being to Another involves our drawing from the resources that have come by way of His going there and the Spirit coming?

P.v.d.B. That is right. The Spirit is here in relation to a glorified Christ.

B.W.W. Do we need to appreciate the dignity connected with the idea of sonship, and see that anything the Lord has introduced is to be maintained, and there is the power in the Spirit to maintain it, notwithstanding reduction in numbers and that kind of thing which we know?

P.v.d.B. Quite so, and there is every resource to meet matters in responsibility, the Spirit helping us to be in the conscious gain of our place in sonship in the presence of the Father.

C.R.B. Would there be some link with the woman in John 4? Much that had come in by way of moral issues had to be faced, but the Lord draws out from the woman some understanding that the Father was seeking worshippers; really she is brought into the liberty of sonship, is she not, by the Christ?

P.v.d.B. I think that is a beautiful illustration of the way that the creditor was met. She was under the claims of the creditor because of her way of life, and the Lord sets the position free in the Spirit, "the water which I shall give", and she was set free from the vessel that was connected with a life of sin, now to be a vessel available for the service of God.

D.E.R. For the power of the Spirit to be proved there has to be empty earthen vessels, "that the surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not from us", 2 Cor 4: 7. Elisha stresses the fact that they are to be empty vessels.

P.v.d.B. Yes. Well, we need, in the ways that God has with each one of us, to come to our own nothingness so that there may be nothing of self to hinder and that the vessel may be empty, and that we may come into this wonderful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

D.J.H. The hymn helps us as to that, does it not?

"O keep us, Love divine, near Thee,,,

That we our nothingness may know (No.87)

It is not by self-occupation, is it?

P.v.d.B. No, it is in relation to what you said before, being to Another. It is being occupied with Christ where He is and then to come out in His features in the power of the Spirit here.

D.J.H. John the baptist had not the advantage we have but he said "He must increase, but I must decrease", John 3: 30.

P.v.d.B. Ah, that is wonderful, when Christ is in the ascendancy, Christ is all. God has Christ before Him.

R.E.T. Is there something in regard of the widowed position? Christ is ascended, He is not here, and if we get the gain of the widowed position there would be more empty vessels, would there not?

P.v.d.B. That is right. We are here in the absence of Christ, and that is where the testimony is. We get many widows in Luke's gospel, pointing to the assembly here in the absence of Christ; but then the Spirit of God is here and we enjoy our relations with Christ by the Spirit. It is by the Spirit that we enjoy our privileges, our relationships, even the forgiveness of sins.

C.C.I. You referred to being filled with the Spirit. That comes into a very interesting section in Ephesians 5 which culminates in giving thanks to God the Father for all things. Would that imply the enjoyment of sonship with the Father in the service of God, and then the fear of Christ, the place that Christ has as controlling the whole matter in the service of God?

P.v.d.B. That is right.

E.C.B. Following the comment about the empty vessels, what a remarkable thing it would be actually to have a whole neighbourhood of empty vessels. That is what there was here.

P.v.d.B. So in John 2 there were empty vessels; the Lord says "mine hour has not yet come" (v 4).

E.C.B. We perhaps little grasp the potentiality if the vessels in a whole locality were empty vessels in the sense which has been referred to, and it is no doubt something remaining in the vessel that does not belong there, in each one of us, that hinders sonship being enjoyed in its fulness.

P.v.d.B. That is right. So we have the Holy Spirit as the earnest of the inheritance. How much do we know of the inheritance? How much do we enjoy the inheritance? What an incentive it is! There is nothing that could bring us into bondage if we were in the gain of our inheritance, if we were in the gain of sonship, if we were enjoying eternal life.

A.A.B. Would the descending mind mark an empty vessel? I was thinking of the hymn we sang together at the beginning of the meeting relating to the One who emptied Himself.

P.v.d.B. I am sure that is so because we find that we are just in the way ourselves in many things, and the Lord has His own ways with us to empty us of the things that hinder. We do not want to give an occasion for the creditor to come in and make claims.

E.P. How encouraging it is that, as we are helped by the Spirit to take up this matter of the emptying, it says "when the vessels were full". Do you think that that is the secret, that it is full vessels that provide a way to know the liberty of sonship.

P.v.d.B. That is right. Stephen was filled with the Spirit, and what a testimony he gave! what an answer he could give to the creditor! The creditor had nothing to say. We need to see currently what there is that cannot be related to the Holy Spirit, hindering what God has here in the light of the assembly.

J.M. Would the moral aspect of circumcision as it comes into the book of Joshua bear on what you are saying? It is the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt there as though there is a deliberate cutting away of all that is in ourselves to which Egypt will minister.

P.v.d.B. That is very helpful. Paul says "we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God... and do not trust in flesh", Phil 3: 3.

W.J.R.B. Is that why the Lord says "Fill the water vessels with water", John 2: 7?

P.v.d.B. That is right, that was water. I think it is the application of the death of Christ inwardly so that there is no room for self, 'All thought of self is now for ever o'er': can we say that ? I cannot say that. I find it may go out from the front door, as Mr Stoney said and comes back through the window, but we need to refuse that line of things; it is Hagar that brings us into bondage; the maidservant and her son are to be cast out, and then you can celebrate the supremacy of Christ. Well, can we be here, in our company, in the enjoyment of sonship, in the fulness of joy that is prepared for us in the Fathers own presence, in the sense of the best garment and the ring and the shoes, the liberty of sonship and all that is ours in privilege? We shall not find it difficult then to answer anything that is on the line of the creditor.

W.J.R.B. "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free", John 8: 36.

P.v.d.B. That is right, and the truth will set you free (v 32). Anything that is not of the truth leads to bondage. The Spirit is the Spirit of truth and the truth will always set you in liberty; things that are not related to the Spirit may have a very nice appearance as in Galatians, but it was only gendering to bondage, depriving them of the liberty of sonship, and the creditor came to take the sons away. That is what Paul is combating for in his epistle to the Galatians. What was of man and what the Spirit of God could not be related to was having a place there, and it was rendering the situation into bondage. There are problems amongst the saints through things that cannot be related to the Spirit of God and it is on the line of the creditor coming to take away the so ns, but the Lord is never to the wall in any situation, as we can see in Matthew 17.

L.A.B. There is a need all the time to recognise the Spirit, not only subjectively but objectively; that is to say, the truth is coming to us and we need to recognise that it is the truth, and then to work it out in the power of the Spirit, do you think?

P.v.d.B. That is right. We may be feeling very weak in giving a word or being in a meeting like this, at least I do. If only you knew how one felt! But it is a question of what is here in the Spirit, and that we have a divine Person, the Holy Spirit, with us, guiding us into all the truth, involving the objective place that the Holy Spirit has. It was quite a turning- point when the truth as to the objective place of the Holy Spirit was brought into relief.

S.D.K.R. Would you say something about using the Spirit. There is the pouring out in a practical way so that we can pay our debt.

P.v.d.B. Well, it is by the Spirit that we mortify our members. We can use the Spirit in that way. As has been quoted, "If we live by the Spirit, let us walk also by the Spirit" (Gal 5: 25), and that is liberty. The Lord said in Bethany "Loose him and let him go", John 11: 44. Lazarus had no kind of after-treatment. The Lord said "let him go", and that is just what the Lord would do and what He did in Matthew 17, He set the position free: "then are the sons free". Peter would have brought the situation into bondage and the creditor would have come, and they would have been in bondage. In Matthew's gospel we have the Lord with us in power in the administrative position here and He will see to it that the situation is preserved in the liberty of sonship so that the testimony may continue.

D.J.H. We referred to making use of the Spirit, availing ourselves of Him as in Romans 8, but then there is the reference that you gave us in Philippians: "We... worship by the Spirit of God"; would that be the highest level at which we use the Spirit, if we may use that expression? and is that in view all the time?

P.v.d.B. That is right. So we have the reference "the mind of the Spirit (is) life and peace", Rom 8: 6 - the way we think, the way our thoughts are controlled. You find that there is that in us which gives room for the creditor to come in; hence the need of deliverance.

S.D.K.R. Would it help us to rise to our calling? It speaks about the vessels of the sanctuary being for pouring out; that is what I am, we are constituted that; and as we do it we get into liberty.

P.v.d.B. That is right. The vessels will thus be available in liberty as fixed in relation to Christ. If the Son sets you free you will be free indeed.

A.J.E.W. I was just turning over in my mind the unique title that John uses: "another Comforter", John 14: 16. There is always the side of what the Spirit is to us individually and personally, but there is the side of what He is as with us, and "another Comforter", which involves surely not only the bearing of His thought towards us positively, but the resource which will never be found wanting in any respect at any time. Does that come into what you are saying as to this section?

P.v.d.B. I think that is very helpful.

E.M.W. You have spoken several times of what hinders our enjoyment of sonship. In this chapter in Matthew we get "This is my beloved Son"; I think you referred earlier to sonship in Him. The man beneath the mountain says "my son". Do we see illustrated there what hinders and how what hinders can be dealt with to bring us into the liberty of sonship?

P.v.d.B. I think that is very helpful, to see the glory of Christ and to hear the voice from the excellent glory, "This is my beloved Son", and then how the situation down below is met and sonship is maintained; conditions met from that position of glory. I think we need to proceed from the level of the service of God in matters of responsibility, to come down from what we enjoy in privilege in His own presence as on the holy mount in the presence of the excellent glory. The Lord had to say to them that "this kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting" (v 21). Prayer is bringing God in and fasting is shutting the flesh out, and that was what was in the way in meeting the matter down below. Then in the end of this chapter we see how in the testimonial setting the Lord comes into this situation. He anticipates Peter and He sets the position in liberty. He has the resources of the depths to meet every matter whatever it may be.

F.M.K. Have you some thought as to why Jesus anticipates him as he was coming "into the house".

P.v.d.B. I think "the house" involves the assembly in Matthew. The magi came "into the house", and in Matthew 13 it is as going "into the house" that the Lord explains things and brings out the matter of the treasure and the pearl, and the net with the fishes. It is a closer environment than what is public at the sea. We get light and help as we come together; the Lord is not rebuking Peter publicly but it is as coming "into the house" that He faces Peter with the matter.

P.S.W. I suppose Peter would have been more used to using a net for fishing, but he is called upon to use a hook. We have to get down to what is specific perhaps in some matters.

P.v.d.B. That is very interesting. This is line fishing. The Lord has what is available to meet the situation in the testimony. This matter was not to bring a reproach on the testimony. He says "But that we may not be an offence to them, go to the sea and cast a hook, and take the first fish that comes up".

A.A.B. Does Jesus anticipating him in the house correspond a little in character with the Father's voice on the mount, bringing out the sensitiveness and wondrous skill of adjustment, how divine Persons adjust us, so nothing is lost but everything is gained?

P.v.d.B. The Lord had His own way with Peter and Peter was not lost; he was secured.

C.C.I. Do you think we may be so occupied with testimonial matters that we may miss the great point of Christianity and its association with Christ in the realm of life and sonship? Is that what is in your mind?

P.v.d.B. That is quite right and is what I had in mind.

H.A.H. Is the thought of anticipating him as he entered into the house the Lord's way of indicating that there is an area into which this element is not to be introduced?

P.v.d.B. Quite, where the door is shut, and I think that is an important matter. We may be getting obsessed with certain things that happen but the Lord has His own way in the testimony. At the same time we need to have spiritual sensitiveness as to what can be related to the Spirit of God and what is of man, because what is of man, natural feelings and the like, are often operating in such a way that it brings the creditor in and consequently the position is brought into bondage.

C.R.B. Does the Father's word, "hear him", involve the recognition of headship? "For me and thee": does that preserve the distinctiveness of Christ in headship?

P.v.d.B. I think that is helpful. Mr Darby makes the remark that individually we speak to God as Father in relation to our personal matters, but in church government we refer to the Lord Jesus because He is the Head of the assembly (see Vol.26. p.28).

E.C.B. Are our liberty in sonship in what we speak of as privilege and in responsibility equivalent to each other? So that more cannot be claimed in one sphere than exists in the other.

P.v.d.B. I think it is very helpful to see that, and the more we realise what we are in sonship in relation to God the more there will be the practical working out of what is from God in the testimonial sphere here. The assembly is a vessel in which there will be glory to God eternally; that is to God, but then there is in the heavenly city what is from God in administration here, and it is equal.

E.C.B. You have spoken of hindrances; if I were hindered in my part in the service of God, then I would be hindered in my relation, you might say, with the other sons. If I was hindered in my relation with the other sons I could not then say I was free in the service of God, because sonship is indivisible. Is that right?

P.v.d.B. That is right.

D.E.B. Does this involve the acceptance of the position of being strangers here? One of our hymns refers to 'strangers below and citizens above' (No.284).

P.v.d.B.. That is it; the sons are free. The Lord was from heaven and the sons are associated with Him in heaven. They come out in responsibility here, and I think that not only do we need the spirit of sonship, but also we need the sense of union in matters of responsibility in administration. I think union is basic to it. Do you think so?

E.C.B. I was just hoping you would say a little more about it. There is of course one view from which union is necessary for entering into sonship. What about union in relation to responsibility?

P.v.d.B. The fact is that the assembly as the bride of Christ is qualified for the administration of the world to come; but that is not just future in its bearing.

E.C.B. Would you suggest that "We have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2: 16) implies union, although that is not a side that is exactly developed in the Corinthian condition?

P.v.d.B. That is right.

A.J.E.W. I was thinking that Saul of Tarsus came into touch with this side remarkably: "Why dost thou persecute me?", Acts 9: 4. The Lord is really claiming the assembly there in union with Himself in the administrative area. Is that right?

P.v.d.B. Very wonderful! So he was to go into the city, he was to find the street called Straight, and it says "it shall be told thee what thou must do" (v 6). There was an administration in that place that the Lord would trust.

F.C.M. So the care meeting should be a display of bridal features, should it not?

P.v.d.B. That is right. The bride of Christ, I think, is rightly connected with privilege, and the wife, the Lamb's wife, is connected with responsibility; it enters into the administration of the world to come, and it enters into administration now. We have it in the end of Proverbs 31 in the virtuous woman, the way she takes care of the interests of her husband in his absence. We are entrusted with things and I think we need the Spirit in relation to sonship, the Spirit as the One by whom we experience union, and the Spirit of truth to govern us; we are not to be governed by anything that is not the truth. The moment anything of man comes in, by way of natural feelings and the like, it cannot be related to the Spirit of God and it makes room for the creditor to come in and bring the situation into bondage. The Lord will see to it, however, that the position will not be brought into bondage, as we learn from this chapter.

W.E E. Would you say then that whatever is brought forward at any time should be based on Scripture?

P v.d.B. It should be based on Scripture, and the Spirit of God will never say anything that is contrary to Scripture, and we need to be in unity and in the sense of union in the working out of things here. If for instance a person is accepted in one locality and refused in another locality, that is the end of common action and unity. (See J.N.D. Letters, Vol.2, p.213). It could not be, the assembly is one; what is true and what governs one locality governs every locality.

E.C.B. I think the practical question which arises very much in what you are saying is our being able ourselves, and in ourselves, to distinguish from what is of ourselves, what is of the Spirit of God, because we very easily think that what we think is what the Spirit thinks; and it may be so, but it may not. Now, can you help us on making that distinction?

P.v.d.B. I think we can learn from the epistle to the Galatians and from what has already been referred to in relation to Paul's conversion, that when the Son was revealed in him he took not counsel with flesh and blood (Gal 1: 16), and that is the secret. My natural feelings may take account of persons and I may just make a mistake as to whether it is the truth that governs me or whether it is persons that govern me in my judgment. What governs us is the truth, and the Spirit is the Spirit of truth.

E.C.B. That is very testing to us all, because we all speak with one another about matters of concern of whatever kind they are and it is very easy to fall into taking counsel with flesh and blood in doing that. The necessity for our communion with one another being in the Spirit is of cardinal importance, is it not?

P.v.d.B. It is very important. I do not think there is any meeting that has not difficulties and exercises, and I think that the Lord has humiliated us in His own ways, so that the element of man should have no place amongst us, in order that He might have His way, that He might have His supremacy in the locality, as we see it in Bethany.

E.C.B. So that we might readily think (I think most of us might think) that one of the tests of the present day is in government, but we may tend to look for that by way of gift when we ought to be looking for it in the manifestation of the Spirit of God.

P.v.d.B. I am sure that is most important, and that there should be an unworldly state of things amongst us so that the Spirit of God may not be hindered in what He is doing and that no ground may be given for the creditor to come in and rob us of the liberty of sonship.

J.W. Does the question raised as to whether we know what we say is of the Spirit, raise the question of what we know of the presence of the Lord? Peter here was in the presence of the Lord and he was adjusted as to his thoughts.

P.v.d.B. I am sure it is very important that we should have a sense of being in the presence of the Lord when we come together. Individually, too, we should be in the presence of God, with a true estimate of ourselves. If we are really with God about things self would have no place, we would find out our own nothingness. It is not that we are not very much, but that we are nothing at all, and then there will be the empty vessels so that the Spirit can come in and meet any situation.

D.E.R. What you are saying would help us to be governed, not by sentiment or by persons, but by divine principles.

P.v.d.B. That is what governs us. At the same time, it has often been in the history of the recovery that certain errors in administration were only a point the Lord used to bring out a certain state of things; it is the state of things that the Lord is drawing attention to, not so much the administrative error. Why is there no power to meet things which go on for so long?

J.M. Do you think this goes back in its origin to new birth? "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit", John 3: 6. Do you think that we need to raise exercise with one another that we might locate and discern what is of the Spirit, and that that should be cultivated in us?

P.v.d.B. I think that is most important; and what tests us is spiritual discernment, that we discern where things are. David says to Abigail "blessed be thy discernment", 1 Sam 25: 33.

C.B. In the first scripture it is a question of the creditor, but in Matthew here it is a question of offences: "that we may not be an offence to them". The Lord says too that they will come, but "woe to that man by whom the offence comes!", Matt 18: 7.

P.v.d.B. Yes. Well, we want to see to it that the creditor can lay no claim, and that as born of God we have the sense of the manifestation of Christ in our comings together, and rise to the great thoughts of God in relation to the assembly. The house of Aaron represents the assembly.

A.A.B. "Let them have dominion" (Gen 1: 26) is one of the great thoughts of God. Does that embrace what you have referred to as the state of union, consciously in us, in relation to administration?

P.v.d.B. Quite so. The Lord will have the assembly with Him in the administration in the world to come and we are being qualified for it in the present time.

A.A.B. In reference to the care meeting again, we have been helped to see that it is deliberative in its character, but the assembly is final in relation to everything, in the administration and the dominion as to any matter.

P.v.d.B. That is right; therefore we need to regard the assembly, whatever the state of things might be in a place we need to regard the assembly. There may be opposition; you may find conditions there that are very humbling; but you will never be helped if you do not regard the assembly in ministering amongst the saints. You need to hold on to the great thoughts of God in relation to the assembly, and what the saints are in dignity according to the mind of God. I think that is your power, in ministering in the state of things as it is.

C.R.B. Does that involve being on a high mountain apart with God?

P.v.d.B. I think that is most important, and to see the Son of man coming in His kingdom. That will be so in a day to come but that has a present application.

J.C.E. I thought it was encouraging that the Lord is always ready to hear us and to instruct us about a matter, as He was here with Peter, and in the earlier scripture the man of God is given that title. I wondered if that showed that there is always an element that will help us and put us right.

P.v.d.B. That is right. We need the prophetic word, prophetic ministry. I think the prophetic meetings afford an occasion for the Lord to bring in His mind. If the word is from God it governs the assembly; that is divine guidance.

D.J.H. Does that relate to what was asked earlier as to discernment? I was thinking of the reference in Hebrews to the word of God (see chap 4: 12). It relates to discernment, but almost there is a personification of the Spirit Himself. "All things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do" (v 13) would bear on the prophetic meeting, would it?

P.v.d.B. Very much, and the prophetic word would not come to us in such a way that it becomes the creditor; it opens the doors of supply in relation to the pot of oil so that things can be met.

S.D.K.R. Did you say that the prophetic word does not become a creditor? Would you make that a bit clearer for us.

P.v.d.B. You may give a word that lays such claims on the brethren that they will be put into bondage. Hebrews 4 goes on to "Having therefore a great high priest" (v 14). It brings in the priesthood of Christ that comes in aid of anything that we need on our part; it brings in the pot of oil. You have a pot of oil in Croydon.

D.J.H. So it is a question of how we answer to the word, is it not? We do not seek to answer to the word according to the flesh but draw upon the divine resource to answer to it that there might be a result for God.

P.v.d.B. That is right. We need to be preserved from legality. Sometimes it is not so easy to discern whether it is legality or whether it is the word of God. I think the word of God will always bring in the pot of oil so that we are directed to the answer; the Lord is bringing this matter to a wealthy completion in what was found in the mouth of the fish.

D.E.B. So the stater is very relevant to what is being said, because one coin is given "for me and thee". Whatever is given or presented involves the Lord equally, does it not?

P.v.d.B. It does. It covers the whole matter; it sets the Lord free and it sets the saints free.

E.M.W. As to prophecy, as Scripture says, "he that prophesies speaks to men in edification, and encouragement, and consolation", 1 Cor 14: 3. That would bring no-one into bondage.

P.v.d.B. No, but I think you know what I mean, giving a word in such a way that brethren felt they were brought into bondage.

E.M.W. You would hardly call that prophecy; it would not be the mind of God, would it?

P.v.d.B. No.

A.A.B. That would be like the staff in the hand of Gehazi, would it not?

P.v.d.B. Exactly.

A.A.B. But the prophetic word involves the prophet himself, great intensity and depth of feeling, and the result of his service is "Take up thy son".

P.v.d.B. That is right. The matter could not be met by a word from a distance. When the staff was laid on the lad there was nothing in the way of response, but when the prophet came in he identified himself with the child; he put his eyes on the child's eyes so that it would see as he saw, and his hands on the child's hands so that it would act as he acted. It was not a word from a distance, not a letter written, but personal identification, and he shut the door on them both. The Galatians needed to have the door shut to the elements that would bring them into bondage, and I think we need to have our door shut to that too.

F.C.M. Is it not encouraging then that as the doors are shut on all that would intrude and hamper, the doors are opened to divine resources. The Lord says "go to the sea"; is not that an area of infinite divine resource?

P.v.d.B. Quite. I think you can see the wealth of that. The Lord has given us an opened door in the day in which we are, and it will be so if we have the door shut to the other things.

W.J.W. That is where the Lord manifested Himself, where the doors were shut.

P.v.d.B. That is very good. He stood in the midst, it says, (see John 20: 19), that is the assembly.

LONDON

18 October 1980

Key to initials

A.A. Bellamy, Buckhurst Hill; C.Beale, London; C.R.Byng, London; D.E.Burr, Redbridge; E.C.Burr, London; L.A.Barlow, Bexley; P.van den Berg, The Hague; W.J.R.Brodie, Ealing; J.C. Evershed, London; W.E.Ellis, London; D.J.Hutson, London; H.A.Hutson, London; C.C.Ikin, Southend; F.M.Knappett, Maidstone; F.C.Mutton, Redbridge; J.Mitchell, Bexley; E.Palmer, London; D.E.Remmington, St. Albans; S.D.K.Roberts, Croydon; R.E.Turner, St. Albans; R.Taylor, Barnet; A.J.E.Welch, London; B.W.Ward, London; E.M.Walkinshaw, Gillingham; J.Wright, Redbridge; P.S.Warren, London; W.J.Woolley, London

THE CHILDREN'S URGENCY

It is quite natural for you as children to feel that you have a lifetime before you, without wondering whether it will be long, short or even very short. If, however, you should hear your elders speaking about 'moral matters' you must not think that, whatever these may be, they can be safely left to the distant future. Scripture does not itself use these words but it really explains them in the warning "And take great heed to your souls". Thus, although your sins may not in childhood seem like a heavy sack-load on your back, yet the very near coming of the Lord Jesus for all His redeemed ones makes it very urgent that you should know Him now as a personal Saviour. When quite young some of us have in a restless, lonely night become so anxious about our souls that we have got up from bed to see if our parents may have already been called away! A scripture to remember is "the same Lord of all is rich towards all that call upon him".

When Jesus preached in His home town of Nazareth He announced "the acceptable year of the Lord". This was the Jubilee, a Hebrew word meaning 'ram's horn' or 'trumpet' which was sounded to proclaim liberty. The scripture read was from the beginning of what is now chapter 61 of Isaiah's prophecy and, in unrolling the scroll as far as this text, Jesus would have passed over other passages concerning Himself, notably the words of chapter 53 which are engraved on the mind and heart of every true believer. What holy emotions must have filled His own heart, knowing that Calvary's cross and all its woe must be endured to give a righteous basis for the freedom proclaimed! He did not go on to read of judgment but there is urgent need now to get the blessings of such a gospel since the present year of favour may close at any moment. It is as if every leaf of the Jubilee calendar read 'Today' and every clock and watch showed 'Now'.

When in Jersey we once visited a small bay in the centre of which is a tiny island with a ruin known as Janvrin's Tower. The history is that a sea-captain of that name had brought his small ship safely home to Jersey from a distant voyage. Unhappily the plague had broken out on board and the ship with all hands had to remain at anchor in this little bay. In spite of some help the crew perished one by one and at last Janvrin himself died at the spot where the tower is now. It was particularly sad for him as his cottage home, his wife and children were barely a mile inland in a sunny valley. Whether or not Janvrin knew the Saviour is not known but as regards his circumstances he was almost home - but LOST. Can you read the warning?

J.C.Evershed

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