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SPIRITUAL QUALITY (7)

SMcC Yesterday afternoon we looked at certain persons in the first chapter of this gospel - John, Elizabeth, Mary and Zacharias, keeping before us the thought of moral or spiritual quality as is stressed in these persons in the opening of the gospel, and reference was made to the way that Luke in his ministry stresses the moral side, and how his gospel, generally speaking, has in mind the service of God. This afternoon in the first passage that we have read in the second chapter, we have Simeon, and Anna the daughter of Phanuel, both remarkable persons, and particularly fitting into our subject because of the features that mark them. We have persons also referred to in the ninth chapter that set out the thought of spiritual quality, and what we should keep before us now in our enquiry in the first section that we have read is more the outward bearing of the service of God, and in the second passage that we have read, the more inward bearing of the service of God. Quality is essential in those features of the service. The scene in Luke 2 is particularly affecting, inasmuch as it has to do with the incoming of Christ in such lowly circumstances, as Mr. Darby has said “Oh, strange yet fit beginning to all that life of woe.” That in itself, in the setting of the testimony in that way, should call for our attention, because Simeon and Anna are fitting into the particular setting of the testimony at the moment; and so are Moses and Elias in chapter 9. Peter and James and John are brought into it there by the Lord, but Moses and Elias are already with Him, and we should keep in our minds in our enquiry this thought, how persons fit into the line of the testimony in correspondence with what may be obtaining at a given time. So that Simeon who comes first into our consideration is referred to as “a man in Jerusalem,” and then in verse 25, “And this man was just and pious,” again stressing the moral line. To be “just and pious” seems to be a feature that Luke would make a good deal of, and especially must we keep in mind the affinities that would seem to be there between the Spirit and Simeon.

JHH Would you say what you mean exactly by the inward and outward bearing of the service of God?

SMcC Well, the meeting this afternoon fits in with the outward bearing of the service of God, and our other readings during the week, and other meetings, fit in with that side. But this morning, moving on to the spiritual side of the service, we have what we referred to as the inward bearing of the service of God. The mount of transfiguration links with it.

MSS Would you connect the terms “man-ward” and “God-ward” with these two thoughts? Is what is man-ward prominent in the first and what is God-ward prominent in the second?

SMcC I would think so, although we would not shut out in the first passage the way that God is before the soul of Simeon, but as you point out, generally speaking, the bearing of what we have in this second chapter is in relation to what is testimonial, the bearing on man, whereas in the second passage it is the glory scene, in which we are drawn into the secret of the Father’s thoughts about Christ, in the exalted, divine surroundings of the holy mount.

LAC Does it appear from the first chapter which we looked at yesterday that divine Persons would immediately set themselves to see this matter through to completion as to quality in the saints? I was just noting the many times in which all three divine Persons are referred to under various names in the first chapter; the Holy Spirit is referred to several times, and the Lord Jesus under the designations of, the Word, and Jesus, and Son of the Highest, and finally, Son of God. And then the Father referred to as God, and as the Mighty One, and as the Lord God. Would that bring divine Persons before us as taking on the matter immediately and seeing it right through to completion?

SMcC I think what you refer to is extremely interesting and throws fresh light on what we had before us yesterday afternoon. What you refer to is important to notice because it adds to the richness of the subject. It adds to the greatness of what there is in the opening chapters of Luke, we might say, behind the testimonial setting and character of things that Luke has in mind, and which was referred to earlier. The manger and the reproach linked with it all has a bearing on the testimonial side, but lying behind it is refinement in the spiritual intelligence in the apprehension of divine Persons, all Three of Them.

NM Is what is outward the product of what is inward, as we see in verses 23 and 24?

SMcC Well, these are very interesting verses, because you notice how the thought of “law” is stressed, “according to the law of Moses” (verse 22), then “according to what is said in the law of the Lord” (verse 24), opening up the great range of the teaching in the beginning. We have not got time to go into it now, but the great teaching of Romans is to help the believer, as enjoying deliverance, to delight in the law of the Lord. “I delight in the law of God,” it is said, and the law of God is regulatory, and it is a great matter that, in what has to do with the public side of the service of God that our thoughts and our words should not be without control. The law of Moses and the law of the Lord represent controlling light in regard of the position.

HOE Would you say a word as to “the consolation of Israel” and “the Lord’s Christ”? Would the first be the public or outward illustration and the second, the inward?

SMcC I think so. You mean, the Lord’s Christ? Particularly referring to the Psalms, which bear on the service of God in all its richness and fulness in an inward way. For instance, in Psalm 2, what a blessed allusion we have to the Lord’s Christ; and all through the Psalms it can be traced. But “awaiting the consolation of Israel” would be like our position publicly now, in awaiting the coming of the Lord, so that what we did this morning really had a testimonial bearing on the public position, in view of His coming.

HLH You spoke of the affinities of the Holy Spirit with Simeon, were you referring to “the Holy Spirit was upon him,” and “it was divinely communicated to him by the Spirit,” and “he came in the Spirit”?

SMcC Yes, exactly, I think it is an important matter with regard to the public side of the service of God that these affinities with the Spirit should be understood better, and be more in evidence with us, because it is not a question now, this afternoon, of academic teaching - we will not get anywhere on that line. We may have orderly exposition and the like, but the important thing, the great line of demarcation between what is true and the mere profession, is this matter of affinity with the Spirit: that there is continual liberty in the meeting and in the persons in relation to the Spirit.

JHH Is that why it says, “And behold! there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon”? As if heaven would call attention to a man in whom the Spirit of God had a right-of-way at all times?

SMcC That is it exactly, because, what is the difference, people say, with what we have here and what is around? Well, if there is any affinity at all with the Spirit we shall soon know the difference, because the Spirit has not a right-of-way in these conditions around us, and we can thank God humbly and unpretentiously, without any thought of spiritual presumption, that the Spirit of God has a right-of-way amongst us.

HOE And we are in the attitude of enquiry?

SMcC That is it. That is the whole attitude of our minds as we are together. It is not the idea of the setting up of any one or ones that arbitrarily go forward with the truth, it is a question of affinity with the Spirit, as making room for what there is in this environment, the wealth that is latent in it in getting at the truth.

HLH You referred to the law of the Lord. It is mentioned at the end too, “and when they had completed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own city. Nazareth,” but in between their coming to do what was referring to the law and their having fulfilled it, you get at what Simeon and Anna represent. Is it not a suggestion that nothing is completed without these conditions?

SMcC Well, I think so. I think that is the point, and if we may so say, the epistle to the Corinthians, especially the first epistle, would correspond to the law of the Lord, the law of God in that way as governing our assemblies, and governing our position in the very centre of things as is in mind here. So that our minds and our thoughts are not loose, they are not uncontrolled, we are together on the principle of being governed by the light that governs the position. That, as I understand it, is the law of the Lord, it is the light that governs the position.

HLH Quite so, what Simeon and Anna did was not prescribed in the law but was born out of the observance of the law, would you say?

SMcC Well, that is what we want to see, that as we are together on the principle of being regulated, we may look for spiritual enlargement, both in viewpoint as to the truth, and in spiritual substance in the apprehension and appreciation of Christ. That is exactly what takes place here.

HLH So these conditions as represented in Simeon and Anna would furnish an environment in which the Spirit can be free?

SMcC That is it, and that is what we have in mind in this matter of quality, that in our public gatherings where the truth is being enquired into, and meetings for prophetic ministry too, it is important that there should be affinity with the Spirit.

EM And would you say that what is moral largely underlies it, in that he is referred to as being just and pious?

SMcC Well, exactly. What an important thing it is to have just and pious persons! We think of what the testimony owes in these parts of the world to just and pious brothers and sisters. We who are younger need to keep that in mind, and however much we may arrive at the truth with keen minds, with minds perhaps marked by greater alacrity, in arriving at the truth, we must always remember, and God will help us in remembering, that the ground has been held on moral lines before we came into it.

SK Would you say that right moral conditions would give life and power to our service?

SMcC Well, they certainly do. Where would there be any testimony carrying any power if there was not piety amongst us? The bringing in of God, “pious and just,” would refer to uprightness in our businesses, etc., in all our dealings uprightness would mark us, and piety, the simplicity of trust and dependence on God.

AKH Why is there a man and a prophetess in connection with the outward bearing of the service, and there are only men in connection with the inward bearing?

SMcC On the inward bearing of the service there is neither male nor female. It is a question of the arrival at manhood in these glorious surroundings that the holy mount refers to, and alludes to brothers and sisters alike. But in the public setting we have distinctions and variety in the service of God, although we also have distinctions and variety on the inward side in the apprehension of the knowledge of God; but I am referring now to the service as in 1 Corinthians 12, and 1 Corinthians 14, that there is diversity marking the operations and the constitution, and so you get that coming into our section - diversity in Simeon and in Anna.

LAC Simeon is referred to in verse 25 as, “a man” and as “this man.” I was thinking of the blessedness of being in any measure distinguished in moral and spiritual quality.

SMcC That is a great matter, I think, because we want to bear in mind that the stressing of moral qualities that is before us in our enquiry, and that distinction, from the standpoint in which we are viewing it, is not so much from the viewpoint of knowledge or spectacular ability, but from the viewpoint of what persons are substantially, what they are in affinity to the Spirit.

HAL Is that why we get the statement, “And the Holy Spirit was upon him,” would that be the anointing?

SMcC Well, I suppose if we were to carry it into our way of thinking, it would correspond somewhat with that. Simeon, of course, does not belong to our dispensation, but what we are alluding to bears in principle on our position, and the Holy Spirit upon him, in verse 25, would allude to the liberty that the Spirit had in resting upon Simeon in this way, and also the dignity that would mark manhood in this relation in the very centre of divine operations - in Jerusalem.

MSS I wondered whether there is teaching in the order in which the Spirit is presented, three times in connection with Simeon? First it is upon him, then it was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit, then he came in the Spirit. I wondered if, having the Spirit upon us and listening to His communications, in that way we are enabled to move in the power of the Spirit?

SMcC Exactly. I think that is right, and what a power for good and for spiritual richness are persons who come this way, who come in the Spirit into the temple. The “upon,” and the communication to, would especially stress the affinity of Simeon with the Spirit, because there was something there that the Spirit could link on with. So that it is evident that if there is anything in any of our hearts, or in our lives unjudged, that the Spirit will not have liberty in linking on with us.

AY So as moving in the liberty of the Spirit we are at liberty to speak to God, and speak to God in appreciation of Christ, in such glowing terms.

SMcC Yes, it is remarkable how it says, “He blessed God,” as if the first consideration he had was for God. This is the mark of a true priestly man.

CB I was thinking of Simeon waiting for the consolation of Israel. Whether that would mean that he had God’s thoughts and carried them in view of what would be the consolation of Israel, and connected that with the Lord Jesus who had come in?

SMcC I think it is a very interesting matter that he was awaiting the consolation - not of Simeon - he was awaiting the consolation of Israel, showing how enlarged the man was. As a man in Jerusalem, at the very centre of divine operations, he was, what we would say in our way of speaking, governed by an assembly viewpoint. He was thinking in assembly thoughts and in assembly ideas - the consolation of Israel.

CB And, would you say, at a time when there was outwardly scarcely anything to be said for Israel, he had in his heart the whole position?

SMcC That is it, and it is particularly fitting at the present time, that we have the whole assembly in our minds. The Lord has nothing less. In Philadelphia He has not got a remnant in mind, He has not got a particular few in mind, He has got the whole assembly in His mind.

CB I was thinking of what Paul says, before Agrippa, “our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night,” it was the whole thought.

SMcC Exactly, so that what is a help to see now in these things we are referring to is, that as you find brothers and sisters who are marked by particular affinity with the Spirit, they have an enlarged viewpoint, not a circumscribed viewpoint, but it is an enlarged viewpoint, an enlarged outlook, in regard to the saints and the truth.

HLH That is why Simeon refers to “a light for revelation of the Gentiles” I suppose?

SMcC Well, there it is, light is expanding and extending in this section, and when we come together in our readings like these, and in our local readings, we will find that as persons come this way, and marked by these qualities, the truth enlarges and extends on our view.

RS And so he is speaking of the consolation of Israel, but yet when he is speaking of the Gentiles he puts them first as to order, “for revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel.”

SMcC Well, do you not think that that refers to the particular intelligence of Simeon as moving on this line, that he saw that God had humanity in mind? Because in Luke humanity is in mind and the Lord Jesus Christ is coming in as the new Head of the race on the side of humanity and Simeon as in the current of divine feelings and the divine mind apprehends that, do you not think?

RS I think so.

DLE Would you say that this was a great reward for a man like Simeon? He is rewarded by seeing the Lord’s Christ.

SMcC Oh, I think it is, and I think we shall find that we are more than compensated as we are more on this line, that there is particular help on the line of pursuing divine interests as indicated in Simeon.

AT Simeon, though he does not belong to this dispensation, was just and pious.

SMcC That is interesting as fitting into the moral side that we have been stressing, and it is important that these features of uprightness, piety and integrity should support the public position of the testimony.

SK Noah was a just man too, although he did not belong to this dispensation.

SMcC Exactly. Simeon does not belong to our dispensation as we say, and he is marked by justness and piety, and Paul stresses it to a young man, Timothy, the idea of piety - the whole of the first epistle to Timothy breathes of piety.

AY Is it not noticeable that Simeon blesses God, and after blessing God he now turns to the father and mother of the child and blesses them also?

SMcC Well, he does, as if he is conversant with what is in the divine mind. It says, verse 34, “And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother, Lo, this child is set for the fall and rising up of many in Israel” - not among the Gentiles notice - but the fall and rising up (notice that word ‘up’), “and for a sign spoken against (and even a sword shall go through thine own soul); so that the thoughts may be revealed from many hearts.” Simeon in speaking to the parents in this way seemed to realise the great diverging line that there would be in the matter, “even a sword shall go through thine own soul,” alluding to the division between what is natural and spiritual.

CB Would you say that it is significant that all this took place in the temple. We get the temple in Corinthians, and Simeon’s and Anna’s being in the temple antedates our day, do you not think?

SMcC Well, it would, so that the principle of the thing is what we carry in our minds. For instance, this afternoon, the principle of the temple is operating in regard to our enquiring into the truth, and it is specially important to see the relation of the Spirit to the temple, “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you.” That is, the link is with the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 3.

AY You referred just now to Simeon speaking of the dividing line in connection with a sword going through Mary’s own soul; do we see how, in verse 43, the Lord cut the ground where what was natural was concerned?

SMcC Well, exactly, that would be one principle of it, that the Lord maintains the great dividing line when it comes to the asserting of natural claims, but yet what should touch our hearts is, that in these circumstances the Lord goes down with them and is subject to them, which is a feature that is running through this section. As we saw it in Mary yesterday, “Behold the bondmaid of the Lord!” stressing subjection.

JHH The intensification of the moral line would be stressed in the fact that Simeon received him into his arms? As the parents brought in the child Jesus, he received Him into his arms, as though to suggest there was no reserve with him whatever, but he was wholeheartedly committed to the position.

SMcC That is it, he set out in that way how we are to be ready for the reception of Christ, ready for impressions of Christ, and to take them on in this way. Notice what is says, “and as the parents brought in the child Jesus that they might do for him according to the custom of the law,” notice how all through the section the regulating side is stressed. That is, things are not just running loosely, our thoughts are not running loosely on matters, and so when we sit together as we are now, the principle of control enters into our way of thinking and taking part: so that we do not have wild gourds, we do not have wrong or inaccurate suggestions as to the truth. As we make way for the Spirit we shall be kept on the line of what is proper and right according to God. So Simeon represents persons who have a peculiar link with the Spirit, who not only have the Spirit, but are making use of the Spirit, and are in communion with Him.

HOE Mary gets the good of that in the second of John. She says, “Whatever he may say to you do,” John 2: 5.

SMcC Exactly. The sword, as it were, must have entered into her soul somewhat that time when the Lord said, “Woman, what have I to do with thee? Mine hour has not yet come.” The Lord was helping Mary to see what was proper in the matter of her approach to him.

LAC The communication here is from the Holy Spirit, but in verse 29 Simeon acknowledges it as to God, and refers to it as “Thy word,” would you help us as to that?

SMcC Well, I think verse 29 shows us what Simeon did. He says, “Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to the word.” It was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he should see the Lord’s Christ, and now he says, “Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace;

for mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples.” He seems to be governed by the mind of God in regard to his going out, his exit.

LAC He is not addressing the Spirit here though, is he?

SMcC You mean in verse 29? No, “the Lord” here is God, it is the general way in the Old Testament of referring to God.

HAL In the Authorised Version it reads just as if he was making a request, but in Mr. Darby’s translation it says, “Now, thou lettest thy bondman go.” Is not that very beautiful?

SMcC I think it is, and it helps very much, in that we see how much he was in the current and stream of divine thoughts. He says, “Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go according to thy word,” as if he is in full correspondence with the divine mind.

RS Is there not also suggestive teaching in it, that with Christ in our arms we are ready to go out of sight?

SMcC That is it. What a wonderful sight it is, is it not, to see this man receiving the child into his arms. It should touch us to think of what was in that small compass. We speak of the manger and the small compass that was there, but look at this small compass - the Babe in Simeon’s arms! The infinite greatness of what is compressed into our gatherings and within our reach, and in the light of the greatness of it we are prepared to go out, as you point out.

MSS The “he” is emphatic in verse 28, “he received him.” Would not that suggest the quality that you are bringing before us in this man?

SMcC I think it would. It is very touching as we get it here, it is not that he took him into his arms, it is “he received him into his arms,” as if the child was moving towards the position. Not that we want to put too much into the passage, but it is a wonderful thing to take account of this, that in John’s gospel where the Person of Christ is peculiarly in mind, it says in John 1: 18, “No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” The Lord is viewed there as coming into the bosom of the Father. He was received in the bosom, the word ‘bosom’ as some of us may know, points to a receptacle. It is the idea of receptivity, as the word in the original conveys. The preposition ‘in’ denotes the movement towards, but the bosom itself denotes receptivity. In Luke Jesus is particularly on the side of humanity. And now we get humanity in Simeon, rising, in principle, to the matter in that the child is received into his arms. And that is a very touching matter, he received confirmation and that enters into his reception of Christ.

MSS Does it not involve moral correspondence between Christ and the man Simeon?

SMcC Well, it does, I think it involves (to use the word that we have been using), that there is not only affinity between Simeon and the Spirit, spiritual affinity, but that there is affinity between Simeon and the babe.

HLH So that expressed in Simeon was what God had in mind, and what the angel predicated, that God should visit Israel - seen in the way that he received Christ, is it not?

SMcC I am sure that is so, that carries with it a view of humanity in Simeon, a man in Jerusalem. Humanity according to the divine thought, we might say, making way for this wonderful advent of Christ.

CB Do you think that he goes out in great dignity? Although he had said so much about this child in his arms, there was no desire to stay to see all these things develop in the child - he goes out as perfectly satisfied, he goes out in dignity, is that right?

SMcC That is a good point. It is wonderful to have been in the testimony all the time you have, but it is a great matter, is it not, that we go out, not in a resigned kind of way, full of misgivings, and full of sorrow, but like Simeon who in going out is finishing, as it were, the period of his testimony, in full correspondence with divine Persons and what they are doing and going on with. It is wonderful to see it and what it means to us, in that way.

RS In the scripture you referred to in John, is it not the Father who is receiving into His bosom, but in Luke it is a man receiving Christ?

SMcC That is what I have been trying to say, but you have put it better than I, it is just what I had in mind.

MSS There is much in Simeon to take account of, for instance, the fact that he takes the ground of being a bondman after having this wonderful privilege.

SMcC Very good. I think that is very interesting. He does not take any high ground, as it were, pretentious ground, he says, “Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go” - I think that is beautiful! To see a person like Simeon held to the end on the line of bondmanship.

WH Is that a real feature of manhood?

SMcC I think so.

EM Would you say that Simeon, although not belonging to this dispensation, had the full thought in going out? I was thinking of Moses, he went out having the full thought, and we next see him on the mount in relation to this dispensation and the full thought.

SMcC Very good, I think that is very interesting. Beloved Mr. Taylor said recently (and it is a great thing to keep in mind, because we often refer to the saints as passing away) that the saints do not pass

away. Moses did not pass away, neither does Simeon pass away. He may have gone on before, but God says, Moses my servant is dead. We should not be afraid to use that word. When we come to the New Testament the saints “fall asleep” in Jesus, but it is helpful to see, in that way, that the saints do not just “pass away” - they are not going out into oblivion, they are just going on before. We will eventually be called up with them, “We are in no way to anticipate” them; 1 Thessalonians 4: 15.

VB Would you say that Simeon had the full thought of God’s salvation before him?

SMcC Exactly, salvation in a Person. A helpful thing to see that.

HLH Simeon was waiting for the consolation of Israel, but Anna spoke to those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem.

SMcC Well, I think that is a great matter as to our own position, because we are waiting for redemption. That is what we are waiting for, as it says in Romans 8, we are waiting for adoption, to wit the redemption of our bodies. And it is a great matter, because redemption involves our bodies of glory. That is, redemption not only applies to our souls, the redemption of the soul is precious, as in Psalm 49, but it applies to our bodies.

RS Sonship involves the necessity of having a body of glory?

SMcC Exactly. We are sons of God by faith, but sonship in actuality involves what you say, our bodies of glory.

LAC You referred yesterday to the thought of component parts, as bearing on this subject of quality. Anna here is referred to as a prophetess, and as a daughter, and the mention of her having been a wife is stated, and then her being a widow. Is the idea of quality there, indicating that quality is to be seen in relation to any such sphere or capacity in which we may move or serve?

SMcC Oh, I think so, I think that the fact that Anna’s tribal relation is alluded to (Asher as you know has a peculiar and choice place in the blessing), and the fact that her years are referred to, and the period of her life before her marriage is referred to, and the period of her life after her marriage, and the period of her life after her widowhood, since her husband departed, is important. We can see that there must be something very special about this woman, in the way of quality in all that has been alluded to.

HEB And would you say in connection with both Simeon and Anna, according to what you have been stressing in connection with the Spirit, that things are timed? It is said of Simeon that he came in the Spirit, into the temple, as the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him according to the law, and then it was said of Anna that she came in that hour - as though to suggest that things are timed as in the hands of the Spirit.

SMcC It is very interesting that in verse 38 it says, “she coming up the same hour.” We want to see the sisters fitting in to the current of the truth, in the way that Anna is referred to here. That is, these persons are fitting in to the light that is governing the position at the moment - the incoming of Christ. They are fitting into it, and they are not fitting into it in an awkward kind of a way, as if they have got difficulty in adjusting themselves to it, they are fitting in as belonging almost to what is going on, and as part of it.

HLH Reference was made to being “maintained” in all these things, they are not just for special occasions.

SMcC That is very interesting in regard to the night seasons, “serving night and day,” suggesting that if Anna awaked during the night, she was not thinking of missed opportunities but she was thinking of all that was going on, and all that God was going through with in relation to the matter of the testimony.

HLH She would be conversant with all the things that would be happening in Israel.

SMcC Exactly. And notice it says, not “day and night,” but “night and day,” and “fastings and prayers.” The night represents the negative side of things, but yet Anna is moving in positive buoyancy in relation to what God was bringing in in connection with the day; and then the fastings, meaning that all that was linked with natural predilections and desires would be shut out in regard of man, but God brought in.

CM In her giving praise to the Lord and speaking to Him, she is doing homage to Christ rather than God, is she not? That “Lord” there referring to Christ Himself?

SMcC I think we have to keep in mind that, as Mr. Darby points out in the note, God is in mind in these appellations.

EB Would you say that none of the meetings that are convened are optional for us?

SMcC No, they are not. We may be missing what divine Persons are doing. Of course there are persons who suffer from bodily illness that cannot come, but you will generally find that if they are in the main stream they know what divine Persons are doing and going on with. But we want to keep in touch with the brethren in all the assemblies to get the gain of what is going on. We might think, Well, I shall get as much at home - never. None of us will ever get at home what we get in the presence of the brethren in the assembly.

WH Would you say, with Anna and Simeon, it is a heart matter?

SMcC I think so, and faithfulness. We should learn to honour such amongst us. Persons who hold the ground and have held the ground. It is not a matter of gift, though of course Anna was a prophetess, but what is stressed in these persons is the moral quality and the piety that marks them, and we should learn to honour that amongst us, that means so much in holding the ground. Now we should finish with an allusion to chapter 9, where the mount of glory comes before us. It is very interesting that Peter in his last days refers to it as “the holy mount.” Beautiful reference! But in carrying the impression in his soul he must have gained something further, and the holiness of the scene must have impressed him in the way that he refers to it in the first chapter of his second letter, and the way he refers to “the excellent glory.” And that is the way with us, that our apprehension of the truth becomes added to as we carry it forward in power in our souls, in affinity with the Spirit. And now here in verse 28, notice the statement, “and it came to pass after these words.” The Lord had been speaking from verse 19 right through to verse 27, and when you look into all that He said, it was certainly morally searching, as to the losing of our life, and as to the saving of our life, and “what shall a man profit if he shall have gained the whole world, and have destroyed, or come under the penalty of the loss of himself”; and so on, and now this last word as to the kingdom of God. Then it says, “And it came to pass after these words.” Now Luke is the only one that gives us this, and he is the only one that gives us the “eight days,” showing that there is a moral link between the teaching of the previous verses and the holy mount - the mount of glory; stressing what we have been keeping before us in our enquiry, that the moral side is the basis of our progress in the truth and of our part in the service of God in this exalted way.

MSS Would you stress too the matter of prayer? The words we have referred to follow on the Lord’s praying alone in verse 18, now it says that He went up into the mountain to pray; verse 28.

SMcC Well, exactly. Prayer is an outstanding feature in Luke’s gospel in regard to our Lord Jesus Christ, in the position that He was in here as Man, and we are to note that and to learn from it, that we shall never get on if we do not pray and follow the Lord’s example in regard of prayer. Mr. Raven said, If I had my life to live over again I would read less and pray more. And I think that is a word to us, as to the time we spend in prayer. If we are going to get on in our souls we have to be praying men and women.

AY So we see the Lord marked by dependence as Man, praying.

SMcC Exactly, dependent manhood is what is before us in Luke’s gospel. Notice that it says, “that taking Peter and John and James,” and notice when it comes to Moses and Elias in verse 30, it says, “And lo, two men talked with him.” They are not being taken, according to the record, they are in the scene, wholly conversant with current light as to what is proceeding according to the mind of heaven. I think it is wonderful to see in Simeon and Anna, and Moses and Elias, how they are fitting into current things that heaven is going on with in such a becoming way. Peter and James and John, of course, stress quality. Moses and Elias stress quality in the Old Testament, and Peter and James and John stress quality in the New, and they are under the Lord’s hand for this position into which they are taken.

RS This gives a link very plainly between the Old and New Testament. Peter, James and John, and Moses and Elias are put together.

SMcC Showing how they fit together, and serve in relation to one another.

RAE What is the special point in emphasising that Moses and Elias are there, they are not taken? Do they represent the saints of the assembly?

SMcC Well, we are applying the type as bearing on our position, as it says, “two men.” That is, we are thinking now of manhood in glorious conditions. Luke contemplates the eternal setting where men will be in relation with God and in the secret of His thoughts in regard to Christ. So that it is right, I suppose, to think of ourselves in relation to Moses and Elias too.

EB It says here of the Lord that as he prayed the fashion of His countenance became different, what would we gather from that?

SMcC Well, I think it is to help us to see (we speak guardedly of the Lord, of course) that the change is there as we have to do with God.

AT Would the presence of Moses and Elias here be an evidence of God’s power and glory?

SMcC Well. Moses has been referred to as a type of the sleeping saints and Elias of the raptured saints, but I am thinking particularly of manhood in glory in this setting here, and it really gives us a view of the liberty of men in these kind of conditions, which involves our being drawn into the secrets of the Father’s thoughts about Christ.

JJ Do Moses and Elias represent the saints then in a heavenly way? Not only that they appear, but they are speaking to Jesus.

SMcC Well, that is the point, we are in the presence here of what is heavenly. It is a great matter to see their liberty in the surroundings in which they are. It says, “And lo, two men talked” - not ‘to him’ - but “with him, who were Moses and Elias.” Notice that. “Who, appearing in glory, spoke of his departure which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem.” It shows you after all, that in heaven, what wonderful things we may look forward to. It is not a place of inactivity, it is a place of holy converse, heavenly converse in regard to divine thoughts.

HAL Why do you emphasise the “were”? “Were Moses and Elias.”

SMcC Well, they were not angels, they were not spirits, they were actually Moses and Elias.

HAL I was wondering if that is not a very important matter, to see that we do not lose our identity?

SMcC Yes, the identity is linked with both the body and the spirit. In the Acts, while we may say that Stephen was with the Lord, we have to bear in mind that it says, “pious men buried Stephen,” not the body of Stephen, but Stephen. Of course it was the body of Stephen, but his personality was linked with it.

LAC I would like to know if the two men, seen in Moses and Elias, would in any way represent the finished product along the line of quality, to which you have been referring, and the three men whom the Lord Jesus took with Him, would represent full and complete testimony: not only as adequate in two but now as in three, the mind of God is to have such testimony to quality in this dispensation by the Spirit.

SMcC Very good, I think what you say is the truth. So that when we come to the Acts, what is put first in the public testimony in the Acts? Not Moses and Elias, but Peter and John and James, they are carrying on. The Lord is taking them on here, but then we see the wonderful features of manhood fully testified to in the Acts in these men.

Chapman Street. Bridgetown, Barbados.

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