FREEDOM FROM EARTHLY THINGS

John 12: 31–33; Philippians 3: 16–21; Colossians 2: 9–12; 3: 1–5

DJH I suppose it would be right to say that generally we are clear as to the world—“the whole world lies in the wicked one” (1 John 5: 19), and we have come to a judgment of associations which would link us with it in any way, and come to a judgment of that which men find their pleasures in. But, what is perhaps the greater snare for us at the present time is not the world, but the earth. We are in a time, in God’s mercy providentially, of relative comfort, and the word affluence is used around us, although it is clear from the present situation in the world that God is speaking to men in this regard. But these things relate to what is on the earth, and I have been struck with this reference and I thought we might enquire as to the full bearing of it, that the Lord Jesus could say, “and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me”. He could have said, ‘if I be lifted up on the earth’, but it is ‘lifted up out of the earth’. It seems to suggest a complete clearance, may I say, from all that is here in a material sense, which would hold us from having our full part in that which is heavenly, to which He was about to go. “I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me. But this he said signifying by what death he was about to die”. So, the cross is involved in it, and there is also a further application of it, for it is as lifted up as exalted in glory that He becomes an attractive point to us, to draw us away from that which would hold us here.

Therefore, I was wondering whether we could enquire regarding the connection with the reference read in Philippians where it speaks of those who are enemies of the cross of Christ, who mind earthly things. But the apostle then reminds them, and reminds us, that “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour”. So that there is that attractive prospect to be kept before us, by way of delivering us from occupation with earthly things, because we have a heavenly portion. Not only what will be when our bodies are actually changed into conformity to His body of glory, but it says, “our commonwealth has its existence”, it is there now. And, as we know from Ephesians we are regarded, from one point of view, as made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

In Colossians we have, perhaps, the moral way to it. We have there the matter of baptism, being buried and raised with the Christ, but then, if we have been raised with Him, we are to seek the things which are above where the Christ is, not the things that are on the earth, and to put to death our members which are on the earth. I just thought we might enquire into these scriptures together, in order that we might be the more set free from what, though in itself you might say is harmless, yet, because of the place it might be given by us, would hinder us from entering into our heavenly portion, and that having in view what is here for the pleasure of God.

JW In the scriptures read the focus is really on the Lord Himself, is it not? He becomes the point of attraction to us. That is the way we get delivered from the world and what is earthly, so that we are drawn to Him.

DJH Exactly. So that as there is the working out of things as we say, subjectively in us, and the moral road is necessary to reach these things vitally, yet we must have what is objective before us, so that we have a point of attraction and a point to which we would reach out, and to which the Holy Spirit would help us in our reaching out. Is that as you see it?

JW I am sure of that, it is really what Christ means to us. I suppose it really goes on to the basic fact that being associated with Him, having part with Him, would deliver us from all that is down here.

DJH Yes, it says in Ephesians, “has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus, that he might display in the coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus”, Ephesians 2: 6, 7. We have been quickened with the Christ, raised up together, and made to sit down together. It is a place in which we are regarded as a result of divine operations, and what has come in from the divine side; but how attractive it is, all centring in this blessed Person; and yet the way He went in order that we might be set free, even now consciously to have our part in these things.

JW Yes, the Lord is the great gathering point, is He not? He is why we come together, why we are here today, because He is the great gathering point.

DJH Yes, so that He is here in all His attractiveness and all His perfection. He was never detained in any way by the things that are on the earth, and by His death He has been lifted up out of it. As we have been reminded, it was morally impossible for Him to die on the earth where He had glorified God—He was lifted up out of it to die. And yet Philippians shows the bearing of it on us, that those who mind earthly things are enemies of the cross of Christ.

RHB What you are saying is illustrated in the history of the eunuch; he came to Jerusalem to worship, but he heard of One whose life was taken from the earth, and he appears at the end of the chapter as no longer in need of anything here; he went on his way rejoicing. We know it refers in the prophet to His death, but the way it is put in the New Testament is that His life is taken from the earth.

DJH I think that helps. I have often pondered that, the way it speaks of it, what happened at the end. It says, “But when they came up out of the water the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no longer, for he went on his way rejoicing”, Acts 8: 39. It does not say that the eunuch saw him no longer because the Spirit had taken him away, but he saw him no longer, “for he went on his way rejoicing”. You might say, whether Philip had been taken away or not, he was eclipsed by the glory of this Man whose life had been taken from the earth. Do you think that would be right?

RHB Yes, I feel what you are saying is a very real challenge to us, the reality of our life being bound up with One who is in a new condition. The reality of that would have the effect of eclipsing things here.

DJH Yes, just to speak generally on the scriptures we have read, would not that be related to our life being hid with the Christ in God, that is, from that point of view our life is not here, it is hid with the Christ in God; it is out of the earth entirely, so that we are to have our minds set in that regard.

DJW Paul had the experience of the Lord appearing to him from the glory. Your other scriptures all relate to his ministry; Paul had a vision in relation to the glory of the One that was exalted on high, and his whole life stood related to that Man there, did it?

DJH Yes, surely. And we can see the way in which Paul was in relation to material things. When he speaks of how he knew how to abound, and to suffer privation, he says, “I have all things in full supply”, and “my God shall abundantly supply all your need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus”, Philippians 4: 18, 19. He was not concerned, in that sense, about material provision, but going through here entirely in dependence, and it was really because his life was there in another world related to another Man.

DJW I am sure that is right. It is a very attractive thought but it is also a challenge to us as to where we find our satisfaction, where we find our life.

DJH Well, we feel particularly for our younger brethren, and the pressures upon them in employment and so on at the present time; and all that is necessary in the pursuit of righteousness and the provision of things honest. But then it is a question of what place those things have with us, and how readily we can get clear of them in view of enjoying eternal life as among the saints, a life which relates to that blessed Man who is in the glory. I feel very sympathetic with those who are under pressure, our younger brethren at the present time, but we would encourage them, as far as they are able, to set things aside in view of being free; and I am sure the Lord will help them.

GCB Would you say something about the death He was about to die, “signifying by what death he was about to die”?

DJH That relates clearly to the death of the cross. He died by the death of the cross and that was the point of severance. I often think of that hymn we sung on Lord’s day morning,

‘ ... Thy death we deem

Our point of severance from this scene

Where man Thy rights did spurn’. (Hymn 192)

It was that death, and it was the complete severance from His being on the earth; not that He had any part in the earth, as we speak of it, He was ever the heavenly Man when He was here, the One who came out of heaven. But the death of the cross was the way by which He was lifted up out of the earth, and that would bear on what is said in Philippians where we read, that if we are pursuing earthly things we are really enemies of the cross of Christ. Had you some thought yourself?

GCB I am thankful for what you say; I wondered if it goes on to death in Jordan character, bearing upon us in our lives, our aspirations here on earth.

DJH Well, it certainly would be that it might have its bearing upon us; Paul says “crucified with Christ” (Galatians 2: 20), as to himself.

JW His death here as being the death of the cross, crucifixion brings out the place of His ignominy and shame, and in that setting He becomes the point of attraction. It was ignominy and shame publicly but He becomes the great point of attraction.

DJH Surely, what we are speaking of may well involve reproach and shame for us, but what a point of attraction there is. How wonderful that He is there on high now as our great High Priest who has passed through all these things, as having been here on the earth Himself, and therefore He is able to sympathise with us. He is a great point of attraction to whom we can turn as we take this course and find the reproach attaching to it.

JW That is right. So if He is that to us, the point of attraction, it is the way other things do not have their attraction for us any more.

DJH Exactly.

PM The reference to the Jordan brings out the drawing power of Christ—“I ... will draw all to me”. “When ye see the ark … remove from your place, and go after it”, Joshua 3: 3. Is that the way in which we are maintained, not only initially, but the way we are maintained as moving apart from all that is here, because Christ is drawing us continually? Is that right?

DJH That is good. We need to remind ourselves that the Red Sea was the enemy behind them, and they were fleeing in that sense, but, with the Jordan, it was “when ye see the ark”—it was a point of attraction. So, it would help us to face these things, and to face death in relation to these things which would hold us here. There was erroneous teaching as to ‘death to nature’. We are still here in these circumstances, but we are here as holding them as in relation to the way that Christ has died out of them. Say more as to Jordan for us.

PM I was affected by our brother’s reference to it, but the ark becomes such a point of attraction here that the world is judged in this chapter in John, and the whole scene has come under judgment. But, there is One who has glorified God in the midst of it all and He is being lifted up out of it, greater than all that is here. Have I found Him to be that?

DJH So we are often reminded that Colossians does not take us as far as Ephesians, it is the resurrection rather than taking us to glory, therefore that is the area where these things are worked out. So you can understand why this matter is brought in in the epistle to the Colossians.

CS Could you say something of the words in John later, “I do not demand that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil”, John 17: 15?

DJH It is really a moral triumph that we are left here. It has been said that one of our greatest Christian blessings is that we are not taken to heaven the day we are converted. We are left here in view of experience, and in view of experience with God, and the knowledge of God and the knowledge of this glorious Person of whom we have been speaking. All that enters into it I think, so we are not taken out of the world, but we are kept from what is in it, and the Lord Jesus is concerned that we should be kept. There, of course, it is the evil which is in the world, rather than what is on the earth, but nevertheless we are on the earth and we are in danger of what is in the world.

CS I wondered if another reason we are here is for testimony which we have a responsibility in relation to. The Lord could say, “I have glorified thee on the earth”, John 17: 4. That is the other side, is it? I wondered if occupation with Him there would make us more like Him here, and to have a more fulfilled part in the testimony that Paul spoke to Timothy about.

DJH I am sure that is right. But there again, in relation to the question as to the cross, it was a public matter. As Paul says, “this was not done in a corner”, Acts 26: 26. It is interesting again that the Lord Jesus uses that expression in speaking to the Father in John 17—“I have glorified thee on the earth”, and now He is lifted up out of the earth so that we might be preserved on the earth where He died.

MRC Could you say a word as to why these verses are found in John’s gospel?

DJH You must have some thought as to it.

MRC I was seeking help. But I wondered if the attractiveness of the Person to John, and the heavenly character of John’s ministry, would bear out that he himself had got the gain of being delivered from what was earthly.

DJH I am sure it would, and I think too maybe it would not be unconnected with the way that the Lord Jesus Himself speaks of it to the Father, “I have glorified thee on the earth”. So, that side of things is peculiarly a matter of John’s gospel. Of course it was always there, we cannot separate the other gospels in that sense, it was the same glorious Man and the same glorious pathway, glory to God all the time; but, nevertheless, that is the way it is presented, the way the Lord Jesus speaks of it, and the way that it is spoken of here would be in line with that.

MRC Yes, there is a distinctiveness about the way that John writes. He was not immune from the circumstances was he? He writes in Revelation, “I John, your brother and fellow-partaker” (Revelation 1: 9), he felt conditions here and yet he was able to rise above it all. Is that something which is vital in the day in which we are found? You have spoken of the pressures of the way and the testings, what the enemy might bring in to attract us, and yet John says, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” (Revelation 1: 10).

DJH Just so, that is good.

RHB You spoke in your opening remarks about having a judgment of the things of the world, but perhaps being snared by what is of the earth. It might be helpful if you could distinguish those for us.

DJH A suggestion just came to mind, I trust of the Lord, as to John 21. Peter says, “I go to fish”, and the others went with him. That was not part of the world, was it? That was just normal, earthly occupation in the pursuit of righteousness, provision for their own need and the needs of their families; but it was of the earth. It would appear that they had missed the point that the Lord Jesus had died out of the earth, and they were returning to the earth. They had companied with Him those three and a half years, with that glorious heavenly Man, and now they had gone back to the earth. Do you think that would be an example?

RHB Yes, a very helpful example, because the Lord had said “I ascend” and they had gone back to what they had been called out from, called out from their occupation to something greater. I suppose there is always that tendency with us to settle back into things that may not in themselves be evil, but may be comfortable, and we lose our discernment and exercise if we do that, do we?

DJH Yes, your word comfortable is very apropos, because I think we can say generally that we are in comfortable circumstances, but the question is as to whether we might make the effort to make them even more comfortable, or whether we accept them as God’s providential care, and focus our minds and hearts on this glorious Person who had died out of the earth.

PJW In connection with the end of the gospel that our brother has referred to, in chapter 20 “he breathed into them”, then spoke of the Spirit of the ascending Man which was really to take over their lives, do you think? Not to say, ‘I am going back to fishing’.

DJH That is right, and then there were the forty days when He went in and out among them in that new condition in which He was. There is mystery attaching to it, it was not the final condition, but there was that way in which He could move in and out among them, and, as has been said, … it was as if He had gone up to heaven and come down again’ (J. Taylor Vol. 37, p.155). He was the ascending Man, and you could not limit Him as out of death. In between these appearings to His own in resurrection in those forty days, you might say, where was He? We cannot limit Him, this was the Man who breathed into them and said, “receive the Holy Spirit”, John 20: 22. Is that in line with what you are thinking?

PJW Yes, I think it has been said He was teaching them to be spiritual in the forty days, so could you help us as to the thought of being spiritual as over against what is earthly and natural?

JW The Jordan has been referred to, there were the two and a half tribes who did not want to live beyond Jordan, they wanted to live this side. The territory was given of God but it was not the heavenly territory. Would that be on the line of which you are thinking, that you might settle for less than the heavenly portion?

DJH I think that helps, and, you might say it is all around us, but these things so easily come in among us and each one of us has to find, in our own hearts, the tendency in this direction. I think what we are saying now really brings us on to what we read in Philippians, because it would be right to say, would it not, that these bodies of humiliation would ever keep us on the earth? So, the body itself is changed into conformity to His body of glory, you might say that is the severance of our last link with the earth in actuality; it is really the change of the body.

JW Paul’s language in Philippians 3 as to earthly things is very strong, is it not? You might think he was too strong, “enemies of the cross of Christ”. What would you say about that—those who mind earthly things and are enemies of the cross of Christ?

DJH I am just feeling after the connection with what we read in John’s gospel, that He has been lifted up out of the earth, so that we might be set free from earthly things and have our part in the commonwealth which is in the heavens. But then, what a cost that was, when you think of what the cost was to Jesus. We shall never know throughout eternity what the cost was to Jesus to be lifted up out of the earth on the cross; but to have no appreciation of that and go on with the earth out of which He was lifted up is really inimical to the truth as to the way He has gone. Does that help?

JW Yes I am sure it does.

DJH You see the same thing in Colossians; I hesitated to read verse 5, but it names things so definitely, “Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth, fornication, uncleanness, vile passions, evil lust, and unbridled desire, which is idolatry”. You might say, well, that is not me, that sort of thing, but that highlights the thing in its stark reality as to what it is all around us in the world.

PM Does our commonwealth involve relationships to which He gives character, and for which we will need the change of body to enjoy them in their fulness? The earth does not give us lasting relationships, but relationships that belong in the commonwealth are complete and full in themselves.

DJH Yes, we shall not be in any different relationships in glory, shall we? These relationships are to be known at the present time, and I always remember dear Mr. John Welch being asked the question, What are the things that are above? He answered it in one word, ‘relationships’. That is really it, that we are brought into the enjoyment of eternal relationships at the present time. But, these things on the earth, even our natural relationships which are of God, would hinder us from the enjoyment of the heavenly things if they were not held rightly in relation to the cross of Christ.

PM Yes, we have been reminded recently of what Mr Darby says, that the greatest bond between human hearts is consecration to Christ (Synopsis Vol. 3, p.402). That governs our relationships here, does it not?

DJH Exactly.

HAH To make the belly the god is idolatry. It is interesting that it comes in Romans as to those that create divisions and so on, who serve their own belly and make fair speeches (see Romans 16: 17, 18). They would attract people to things on the earth, to make something of men on the earth.

DJH That is a very searching thing, as to whether human ability might enter even into such an occasion as this, it would search us as to what we are saying, and how we approach such an occasion. I thought, also, as to the matter of idolatry. John in writing to his children in the first epistle, closes with that word, and the way that it is put leaves it in your mind so that you cannot forget it—“Children, keep yourselves from idols”, 1 John 5: 21.

GCB My mind has gone back more than once on this occasion, to our brother’s question. The Lord says “signifying”, that is that He becomes a sign, a pointer, you might say. John’s gospel is full of signs and that is one of them.

DJH Yes, it is good to bring that word in again “signifying by what death he was about to die”. As you say, it is a sign; we have often been reminded that signs are to keep us on the right road, and this would be one of them, signifying by what death He was about to die.

AM At the beginning of Philippians 3, the apostle is listing things which relate to the earth, and which were not wrong, in fact they were to his advantage, but he says, ‘I count all things loss that I may gain Christ’ (see Philippians 3: 4–8).

DJH I am glad you have referred back to that. You might say this is a sort of moral road to this, that he had clearly come to a judgment of these things, regarding them in the value of what they were, and counting them on that score to be but loss, all with a view to gaining Christ. What can we say as to gaining Christ? It is a wonderful expression, one which I would find difficult to analyse. What do you say about gaining Christ?

AM I also find it very difficult. I suppose if you were to ask Paul what he had that was gain to him, he would say, Christ. That would be Christ as and where He is.

DJH Exactly.

JRW Does the emphatic “our”—“our commonwealth” give the sense of what is heavenly, far superior to what was occupying these persons of whom he was speaking? “Our commonwealth” is far superior to what is here, is it not?

DJH Yes, that is a very wide word—“our commonwealth”. It is really embracing all believers here; it is something which belongs to all. Sadly, many are not in the gain of it, and it is a question as to ourselves as to how much we are in the gain of it. The pursuit of earthly things would be what would hinder us from the present enjoyment of it, it has its existence in the heavens, not it will have but it has. The note speaks of it as the associations of life; that is the present thing, they have their existence in the heavens.

JRW I was thinking of what has been said about gaining Christ; as our brother says, it is where He is, the heavenly Man. These are wonderful things and we can gain them for our enjoyment presently.

DJH Yes, if I have Christ for my gain. You might say, if we have not Christ, what would we have? Really, we have everything as having Christ, and it is all made good to us by the Spirit.

JW I suppose it is possible to make our Christianity earthly.

DJH I certainly thing it is, but say a little more as to what you have in mind.

JW We see it all around. Christianity has been adapted to this earth and to man in it. Speaking about associations of life, even in the fellowship, associations of life can be connected with what is here instead of what is heavenly.

DJH Yes, I see what you mean; we do enjoy our relationships with one another, but it is so easy for them to become no more than what people in the world enjoy in the way of what is social. That would be on the line you are saying, would it?

JW Very much so.

DJH The social side of things relates to the earth, but we are to be friendly, to greet the friends by name, we know who they are, but it is on this level is it not? It has often been said, it is Paul, the Christian who writes this epistle.

GCB In connection with what our brother has just said, there would be a danger of putting the natural family above the assembly. Mr. Taylor made an interesting remark that some may come to the meetings and then they go home, but they say that is our real home.

DJH Yes, the meeting is our real home; we often speak of it as the home of love which we are privileged to enjoy in a peculiar way as together. But, there again, the Lord Jesus spoke very plainly, and it is something we know by experience that there have been homes, or families, which have been broken and divided because of the claim of the heavenly Man, and others going on in relation to what is here on the earth.

RHB The thought of place enters into what you are saying, on the earth or in heaven. The Lord said to His own, “I go to prepare you a place ... I am coming again and shall receive you to myself, that where I am ye also may be”, John 14: 2, 3. I was just thinking, What is the leverage in the soul to be delivered from what is earthly? It is only in the consciousness that I have a place prepared for me there, that I will be prepared to surrender any place here.

DJH Exactly. We have, in the teaching, about the need of deliverance from place, and that is really what we are speaking of, deliverance from place. Does that put it in a nutshell in a way?

RHB Yes, I was thinking of the way the apostle speaks, “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens”. It was real to him and Christ was real to him. I think it really comes down to what extent the glorified Man in heaven is a reality to my soul.

DJH Yes, indeed. The Holy Spirit would keep Him before us, our risen and glorified Head.

PJW We had ministry in Walton as to Paul’s gospel being a gospel of place; his ministry was from heaven in view of the saints going to heaven, was it? But now is your thought; not only waiting for it.

DJH Exactly. So, there again, it is something I have made a point of, looking at the detail of the words of Scripture. It does not simply say that our commonwealth is in the heavens, but “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens”. It seems to point to the reality of the fact, and it is our commonwealth, it is where our associations of life are. That would help us if we always regarded one another in the light of that for the relationships that we have together. There is much, I have to say for myself, which is very much on the other side because of what I am naturally, but that kind of thing has to be overcome and we view one another from the point of view of how God views us, made to sit down in the heavenlies.

DJR Would it help to think of the shared outlook we have with one another? Paul referred to the transformation of our bodies of humiliation into conformity to His body of glory, reminding one another of the Lord’s coming and our place where He is.

DJH Yes, that is something to be kept before us. We have been reminded recently that we are not looking for an event. It will be a great event, but what we are looking for is the Person, the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour. What an extended title that is, the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour! I remember Mr Parker saying this is the last act of His saviourhood; having changed our bodies into conformity to His body of glory we shall not need a Saviour any more.

PM Can you just say a word for us as to that reference, “who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory”?

DJH I would rather you said something, have you something in mind? “Transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory”. There is something that goes through. I have often pondered the reference in 1 Corinthians 15 where it speaks of the man made of dust and so on, but it says “It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruptibility. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body”, 1 Corinthians 15: 42–44. I just cannot understand it really, I confess that, but although the body of glory is so different from the body of humiliation, clearly because it is in conformity to His own body of glory, yet it is the same person, is it not? There is an identity that comes through.

PM We often hear it said, and I have said it myself, we are looking forward to having new bodies, but we will have changed bodies, and there could not be a greater transformation than a body of humiliation transformed according to His body of glory. There could be no greater transformation.

DJH So, it would be right to think in regard of these reference in 1 Corinthians 15; what a difference! Corruption and incorruptibility; not corruption and incorruption even, but incorruptibility. And then he goes on to speak there, “that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual—the first man out of the earth, made of dust; the second man, out of heaven. Such as he made of dust, such also those made of dust” (1 Corinthians 15: 46–48). That is us, but then, “such as the heavenly one”, that is Christ, “such also the heavenly ones”. That will be the climax at that time. The heavenly ones will actually be like the heavenly One then.

PM That was an answer, it is a necessity. Is that why here it is in the singular, He will transform our body, it is that condition that will be entirely changed, but what will pervade eternity will be like His own body of glory?

DJH Wonderful, is it not?

HAH In Romans 8 it says, “shall quicken your mortal bodies” (Romans 8: 11), the identity goes through in some wonderful way. We know it is so. In 2 Corinthians 5 it is the persons who are reconciled are they not (2 Corinthians 5: 18)?

DJH Well, again the word ‘change’ helps us very much. We shall all be changed, “We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed”, 1 Corinthians 15: 51. Those who have fallen asleep, they will be changed as we shall be changed.

HAH I think Mr Coates had a very serious declining condition at the end of his life, and I understand he said he was learning what a body of humiliation is; the natural faculties fail, even the normal habits. Some of our dear sisters at the moment and others are experiencing this.

DJH Well, Mr Taylor referred to that as dissolution; it is something which is taking place at the present time.

AJMcS I was going to ask you to clarify something you said earlier for our help. You spoke about homes or families being divided and broken because of the claim of the heavenly Man. I wanted to clarify what was in your mind.

DJH I was only thinking of the way in which, sadly, there has been some separation. The Lord Jesus speaks of a man forsaking his father and mother, and those relationships having to be forsaken in view of following Him, and following Him in relation to where He is now. For us that would involve that we may have to separate from others, although, of course, the ordinance of God as to honouring father and mother remains. But, as to associations and so on, separation has to come in. Does that clarify it?

AJMcS I think it is clear when the Lord Jesus becomes the object in your life, if your family are not with you, you are going to swim against the tide. But we do not break up households, nor do we divide households, that is devilish really, but, if the Lord makes a difference in a person’s life then that will have an effect on his natural relationships, do you think?

DJH Yes, it is a question of separation rather than division in that sense. I am glad you brought that in to make it clear.

PM One partner may go away into the world, and one in love for Christ may go on, and in going on may recover the other.

DJH Yes, recovery is always in mind. Separation, whether it be what we sadly sometimes have to come to in relation to those who may have walked with us, or whether it be generally in relation to matters such as our brother referred to, would always have recovery in mind, and the return to normal conditions.

AJMcS Could I just say something as to 1 Peter 3 in line with that, because there is a reference there as to wives who have husbands who are disobedient to the word. It says they may be gained without the word by the conversation of the wives. There is no split-up in the household there, the godly testimony of the wife affects the husband. God uses that for conversion.

DJH Yes, and it is the same in 1 Corinthians 7, “let not husband leave wife” (1 Corinthians 7: 11), it is the same thing.

In Colossians, I was thinking of the way in which the matter is spoken of there, this is the moral road to it, but again it is how Christ is brought before us at the outset in verse 9, “For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; and ye are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and authority”. How wonderful that that is the glorious Person in whom all has been effected, so that we might be completely clear, as it says, “in whom also ye have been circumcised with circumcision not done by hand, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ”. I understand the body of the flesh would mean the totality of it, all that relates to that condition. We are still here in the ties of nature as our brother has made clear to us, nevertheless there is that which relates to the flesh as such, “in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell”, Romans 7: 18. All that has been terminated “in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ”. He has gone that way. How wonderful that is, another aspect of His death, “buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead”. That is why I read on, “If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above”. This, in the second chapter, has been effected on the divine side, but as we come into the gain of that, “If therefore ye have been raised”, it is not an “if” of doubt, but as we sometimes use the expression, it is an “if” of consequence. Then we are to seek the things which are above where the Christ is, and have our minds on things above, not on the things that are on the earth.

HAH Is the thought of being complete in Him, while it is brought in in relation to the matter of being circumcised, does it really look on to the worship of God? I was thinking of Philippians—Paul says, “we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God”, Philippians 3: 3. Having our mind on the things above would lead to the worship of God, especially this matter of being complete in Him.

DJH I am thankful you mentioned that, because I think we always have to keep that before us, that all these exercises we are speaking of, whilst it is to bring us into liberty and bring us into the enjoyment of these relationships, our commonwealth which has its existence in the heavens, we must see that the great ultimate is God Himself. I think it is good that we should come to that before we close, to see that in all these things it is really for God Himself, and the Lord Jesus Himself has been referred to in John 17. That would be in mind, when He said, “I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it”, John 17: 4. The great end is that God Himself should be served.

AJMcS Verses 11 and 12 are absolute statements in Colossians 2, but do we have the practical working out of it in chapter 3?

DJH Yes, that is what I thought, that would be why I went directly to “If therefore ye have been raised”, that is the way that that truth has to be worked out by us in these verses here.

JRW Would you say something to help us as to the things that are above? We have spoken of certain things that are on the earth, and that comes out in verse 5, but what would you say as to the things that are above?

DJH As I said, Mr Welch referred to it as ‘relationships’. I think really it goes back to our commonwealth which has its existence in the heavens. Think of how broad that would be, I think it is something that we could explore for ourselves as to what would be involved in that. I think much of the words of Scripture. There are many times that that word “things” is used; I think that is done intentionally and skilfully by the Holy Spirit, so that it might set us thinking as to what these things are. But I think it will be everything that is included in that commonwealth which has its existence in the heavens. Of course it would go beyond that, because there is the service of God (I remember a brother saying at one time that the heavens is the place where the service of God proceeds). So all that is very wide, the things that are above.

CS Would that be reflected in the way in which we work out relationships here, the practice of this would be seen here, and in that we would glorify God.

DJH Yes, that is right.

DJW Does it bring out the value of our coming together, our commonwealth cannot be enjoyed on our own, we need one another for it; it brings out the value of each and every one that has part in this.

DJH Yes, it does. How essential it is and it makes it so attractive for us to come together; there is no burden in coming together; it is attractive because we can enjoy this commonwealth, enjoy it because of the blessed, glorious Man who is the centre of it.

CS One thing that struck me about Mr John Welch was the way in which he worked out relationships with his brethren. He was a remarkable example.

DJH Yes, he was, but he was a man too of great ability, recognised universally for his authority on certain subjects, and yet you could see that it never detained him at all; you could see where his life was, his life was not in those things.

JW We have referred to what is absolute in chapter 2, what is accomplished, and the working out of it in chapter 3; do you think we have, in our minds, to arrive at what has been accomplished, for ourselves, so that the circumcision of the Christ means the cutting off of all that I am according to flesh?

DJH Yes, you could not exclude the exercises of the first seven chapters of Romans; that would all be an expansion of what is involved in this for us on a moral line.

JW Yes, so we come into a circle where Christ is everything and in all.

DJH Yes, exactly, and then, just a word before we close. I wondered about reading verses 16 and 17 of this chapter, which I think bear on what we were saying earlier, “Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs”, so there is plenty that can occupy us if we are on this line, “singing with grace in your hearts to God”. God is the ultimate in view. And then it goes on again, relating to something that our brother said as to our lives here, “And everything, whatever ye may do in word or in deed, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him”. So, it is all moving in that direction.

JW It is a very sweeping statement, “all things”. What I do, can I do it in the name of the Lord Jesus? In every circle of life.

DJH Indeed. I have often said as to that, whilst we do have principles that are essential for us, principles of separation, as it says, “Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers” (2 Corinthians 6: 14), these are very important matters, but, really, this verse covers it all. Could I be in a trade union and linking it in the name of the Lord Jesus? Could I give thanks to God the Father in relation to it? All these things really are covered in this verse, and what we are speaking of as to being delivered from earthly things and having our mind on things above, in the way in which we are speaking of it, in itself would be deliverance from all these things which would otherwise detain us. And that would be so, as we have been reminded from time to time in this reading, because of the attractiveness of that glorious Person who has effected such a deliverance for us, and who is now the Centre of another world where He has secured a place for us.

Reading at Havering
22 November 2008

KEY TO INITIALS

R. H. Brown

A. J. McSeveney

J. R. Walkinshaw

G. C. Bywater

A. Martin

J. Walkinshaw

M. R. Cook

P. Martin

D. J. Wright

D. J. Hutson

D. J. Roberts

J. Wright

H. A. Hutson

C. Smith