CONDITIONS REQUIRED FOR THE SPIRIT OF GOD

John 14: 15–17; 16: 5–15; 2 Corinthians 3: 17, 18; Acts 5: 29–32; Genesis 8: 6–12

NJH Though these scriptures are well known, I thought we should read them in the light of the conditions which are required for the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit has not changed, neither have the conditions for His presence changed, and I thought in John’s gospel we see how the Lord, in His service, provided the conditions for the presence of the Spirit.

Possibly His greatest service, having revealed God and accomplished the great work of redemption, was to provide the conditions for the Spirit of God. I wondered if it would be something we should consider, because we are coming near the end, and we are often reminded that the Spirit and the bride say, Come. Therefore our relations with the Spirit are a vital matter, and the occasion of that being so close, there is no time to lose in recognising that the Lord is working with us, so that conditions that are due to the Spirit are present. Some of these scriptures refer to a collective view and some individual, we need to touch both. But I thought first of all, in John 14. He says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”.

Now, the keeping of the Lord’s commandments would be the basis for the conditions in which the Spirit would be present. It is over against the world, it says, “whom the world cannot receive”. The world in all its ability and intelligence, there is no place there for the Spirit. It is not given to the world; so you can understand if it is selective it has not just to be a casual matter, but it is intended we consider soberly the conditions that are due for the presence of the Spirit today and realise it. I know there is the side of the gift (we will come to that) but in chapter 16, again it is over against the world. He says here, “But now I go to him that has sent me, and none of you demands of me, Where goest thou?”. Thomas already had questioned that in chapter 14, but in chapter 16 conditions are getting closer, in the Lord’s mind, for the presence of the Spirit, and He says, “But I say the truth to you, It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you”. That is a very blessed thing, to get a sense that He has persons now, sanctified from the world, ready for the coming of the Spirit.

In the reference in 2 Corinthians 3 I think it gives some impression of the proximity of Christ where He is, and the presence of the Spirit here effecting liberty. It says, “Now the Lord is the Spirit”. Well, you might say He is the Spirit of the covenant, He is the Spirit of scripture. You get the key for scripture from Christ, involving where He is, and then “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”. There is beautiful proximity to the presence of Christ before the Father, and the power of the Spirit known where there is liberty. That liberty is that “we all, looking on the glory of the Lord”—what liberty we are given, beloved brethren, where the Spirit has His place, where conditions for His presence are provided.

In chapter 5 of Acts it is obedience. There are two references in scripture to the Spirit being given. One is asking the Father (Luke 11: 13); the other is on the basis of obedience, and I thought that points somewhat to the conditions in which the Spirit is free. We start our histories by the obedience of faith, but the principle of obedience in the lives of believers is the condition in which the Spirit of God is free and His presence is known.

In Genesis 8, Noah had no exercise with the raven; the raven went out, that speaks of the flesh. It had no place really in Noah’s life, though both the clean and the unclean were taken into the ark; but the raven had no place, it went out and never returned. We are often told it fed on death. The scene was full of death and the raven found its appetite there; that is the flesh. We know that, however spiritual an older person gets, the appetite of the flesh never changes, it feeds on death; and if we give any opening for it, it is to our sorrow. But there is a waiting with Noah when it comes to the dove; the exercise involving the presence of the Spirit. The dove goes out and comes back; no resting place; goes out again and comes back with the olive leaf plucked off, the sign of life. And then, after seven days he sends it out. I think at that point, speaking figuratively, the Spirit now was in an area which was clean and Noah was about to enter into an area where the Spirit was free.

It was a cleansed earth that Noah went out in shortly after this.

DAS I think it is very wonderful. I was wondering about John 14: 21, it says, “He that has my commandments and keeps them”, there are two verbs there, ‘has’ and ‘keeps’. My mind went to Numbers 15 where God spoke to Moses and told them as to their dress, “bid them that they make them tassels on the corners of their garments, throughout their generations, and that they attach to the tassel of the corners a lace of blue ... that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of Jehovah”, Numbers 15: 38, 39. So this would be a witness, a testimony; he that has it and keeps it would be a witness and a testimony; the blue would be in evidence, do you think?

NJH Yes, because the Spirit gives the assembly its heavenly character; its refined heavenly character comes from the Spirit and that is a wonderful thing. I think what you say helps because He gives them His commandments—He is not speaking to the world—He has addressed the world already in testimony—The service of Christ in His ministrations to the world are past at this point; Judas has gone out. You might say it is a broken number but He has the saints where He wants them; He has them to tell them of the coming of the Spirit.

You might say it is the greatest thought in the divine mind, that the saints might receive the Spirit and here He has them in an obedient state. He says, “He that has my commandments and keeps them”, and these commandments are preparing them for the presence of the Spirit.

So He says, “I will beg the Father”. The Father will not hold that gift back; and He will not delay it. He says, “I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter”.

GBG There are commandments related to the inside position and there are commandments related to the public position; is that the case? John gives us the

commandments related to the inside position and Paul gives us commandments related to the public position.

NJH Yes, I think John is working inwardly and the Spirit was going to be received inwardly. I know as together in the upper room there was the witness of the Spirit’s coming, the parted tongues as of fire, but the great thought was to strengthen them inwardly, and therefore commandments of Christ would be stored in their hearts. That is what we need, we need to hold and keep—“He that has my commandments and keeps them”, that is one way to receive the blessed fulness of the presence of the Spirit.

JCG “If ye love me” would be the basis of the Spirit, the holding of the truth in love. The disciples loved Christ and the saints love Christ; does it form a basis for which the Lord goes to the Father to ask for the Spirit to come?

NJH That is helpful. Christ as Comforter formed affection in them, He is comforting, His service to them was to develop love in their hearts for Him. So here, having been with them three and a half years He says, “another Comforter”, and I think the more we make room for that we will learn to love the Spirit. The Spirit and the bride means not only the bride’s love for Christ, but I think it involves love for the Spirit.

CKR Say a bit more on the value of the indwelling, the service of the Holy Spirit. It is such a distinguishing feature of this dispensation, is it not?

NJH Well you can give us help.

CKR What you are saying about conditions is very exercising, very real nevertheless in what God has wrought inwardly through divine operations, and also through redemption and the gift of the Spirit. The operating of all that inwardly gives some real appreciation of divine things, which are only really by the power of the Spirit.

NJH That is right, He is the power for everything. Chapter 16 is the power of witness because the demonstration of the Spirit is in the saints. I like the thought of what He is inwardly; where else can He dwell? He dwells in persons; the assembly involves persons and the Spirit is dwelling there. I think the indwelling Spirit is an immensely powerful thought.

CKR It is God who is here in the Spirit, is that right?

NJH A habitation of God in the Spirit, exactly. How could this thing be maintained up to now? Think of the time since the Spirit came; how are saints going on in their own links with the Lord, and how are they going on together? It is in the power of the Spirit. The very fact we are here together and loving one another is an evidence that the Spirit is here in the company.

JCG The inward side is stressed in “ye know him”. It says that the world does not see Him nor know Him, but He says to the disciples that “ye know him”. They had seen the Spirit in Christ. Is the knowing a big challenge to us? It would involve communion with the Spirit, would it?

NJH Yes, it would. That is interesting, because the Spirit was in Christ; as a dependent Man He did everything by the Spirit. It is remarkable that He came into that position to do things, to be justified by the Spirit. It says, “ye know him”, so they would realise that what they were receiving was the same as what was in Christ—the same Spirit, it is wonderful. He uniquely speaks of His body as the shrine. We should be saved from being loose in our view, if we are going to receive the Spirit, there must be conditions for it.

RG I was just thinking that is borne out by what He says, “for he abides with you, and shall be in you”. The Spirit was there in Christ as the Lord was speaking, and He is going to abide; the “in you” would be something new. The Spirit would find conditions in them, if they kept His commandments, that were the same as were in Christ when He was with Him and in Him.

NJH Yes, it is “my commandments”. Now, He had received commandments. He says, “I have received this commandment of my Father” (John 10: 18), so He was one that was under the principle of commandment as here. It is remarkable the manhood of Christ as being under commandment. Now, He says, I am going to give you My commandments; it is a privilege to have the commandments of Christ, is it not?

JTB(Gr) So we are told “be filled with the Spirit”, Ephesians 5: 18. While the Lord had His own distinction we are told to be filled with the Spirit. Do you think if we realised the potential there is in having that divine Person within us, it would help us to go on in our exercise to be filled with the Spirit?

NJH You are cautious in using these words as to those that are in flesh and blood. But it means that there is no room given for the flesh in its moral features. Beloved brethren, our brother spoke about being filled with the Spirit, the potential is limitless. What is within our grasp is so great; I challenge myself. Do I realise the opportunity of what is within me? If we make room for the Spirit and the flesh is kept out, what glories are brought before us.

WMP In the service to them after Judas has gone out, what He says immediately is, “that ye love one another; as I have loved you”. I wondered if that would make them consider how He loved them, that service of His for them.

NJH What an advantage they had. They saw everything displayed in Christ, and “as I have loved you”; think of the fulness of love that made up for the differences; His love for each one, how full that love was. They learned from Christ and we now learn from the Spirit, we have not known Christ according to flesh, we have to learn from the Spirit.

JDG It says, “In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me”, that would be the Spirit’s day. I was thinking of what you said about coming into the fulness of what tends to be limitless; the enjoyment of Christ being in the Father and “ye in me, and I in you”—the bond between the disciples, between us and Christ to live, in a sense, in this living world.

NJH That is good. It is the bond of affection, the bond of love that holds us together, and I think what you have said is right. “And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one” (John 17: 22), the oneness is by the Spirit, it is in the power of the Spirit.

We go on to chapter 16 because it comes in there that the application of the bond that was referred to is, “All things that the Father has are mine; on account of this I have said, that he receives of mine and shall announce it to you”. The whole thing is brought in in a living, practical way, is that right?

JDG “Ye in me and I in you”, is an organic thought; it is life in the believer responding to life in Christ but by the Spirit.

NJH It is good to bring in the side of life, the Spirit is the power of that life, and its quickening power should be known by us now, that is the power of the Spirit in life.

RT It was referred to as the Spirit of truth in the section read; have you something in mind about that?

NJH You give us your thought.

RT It says, “whom the world cannot receive”. He is speaking about the conditions, the world cannot receive the truth, it does not want it, does it? It is Someone in whom the truth is embodied that is to engage our affections as we come into it.

NJH The whole canon of truth is brought to us by the Spirit, and He is there, the Spirit of truth. The Lord speaks of the men that had been given Him out of the world, and in principle, they had been taken out of the quarry. Mr Darby said that was the first act of sanctification; and the Spirit of truth maintains everything that was in Christ. It is a real matter. As a divine Person He cannot deny Himself, He abides faithful; He is faithful to Christ, and the Spirit of truth carries everything forward that was established and set out in Christ. That is a blessed thing. The period of two thousand years has not altered that; the Spirit of truth is no different in the day we are in. I think we need to be brought up to date in these things.

TCM The Lord Jesus speaks about leaving them and going to heaven, but the Spirit of God was coming from that environment. Do you think the need for keeping these commandments, is that we would keep and enjoy the heavenly environment that the Lord brought down here and the Spirit brought down?

NJH The Spirit was ten days with Christ in glory and He brings the wealth of that. “He receives of mine”, not only exactly what belongs to Him but

“receives of mine”—He brings the thing so real into our hearts as we make room for Him. That is, the Spirit brings that heavenly side in, that the world does not know, and cannot know.

RT Does the Spirit take the place of leadership in the wilderness position? It is true after Numbers 21, they began to journey after it was recognised. Here He shall guide you into all the truth; we have our Leader above, but the Spirit has the position of leadership in the wilderness.

NJH That is good. Numbers 21 involves the leadership of the Spirit recognised, that takes them forward. There is death before that as we know. Aaron dies; then they are under new leadership and going towards the land, and all that the Spirit has in mind is the end in view. He takes of Christ where He is. He had been with Him in the days of His flesh; but now He takes from Christ where He is above and He has that end in view. We need to have the end in view, beloved brethren, keep the goal before us where the Spirit is directing.

JMar Would Antioch be an example of conditions that are required for the Spirit of God? I was thinking of what characterised them; there was liberty for the Spirit; He was at home in their presence; He enjoyed in Antioch what He enjoyed with the Lord Jesus, in complacency. They were first called Christians at Antioch as well.

NJH Yes, it is interesting to bring that in, because these references we have read in John was the Lord’s service in providing conditions for the Spirit; but when you come to Antioch, the Spirit was actually maintaining them; it was prayer and fasting. That can only be done in the power of the Spirit; it is not religious fasting (that marked the Pharisees), this was prayer and fasting in the power of the Spirit, and as that condition existed the Spirit says “separate me now Barnabas and Saul”.

CKR When you referred to conditions were you thinking not just the affections but the mind, the whole vessel in that sense? He shall guide you into the truth is both by way of intelligence but also is it by forming affection? So the truth, therefore, becomes resident in the souls of the saints.

NJH When you set your mind on the things that are above, the affections soon follow. The whole person has to be held by the Spirit. The mind is to be controlled; it is the renewed mind in Romans, but the issues of life are out of the heart. So, the Spirit must be known wholly in the believer.

RG It is interesting in that way that in Ephesus, when Paul spoke to them, they had not heard the Spirit had come; it was after they were baptised that the Holy Spirit came upon them. Do you think that indicates that persons were now in a condition, through baptism, the removal of one order of man, for the Spirit to come upon another order of man?

NJH I think that is right. You get disciples in Ephesus and then you get the elders, and elders involve experience. You never have fellow-elder said of an angel (fellow-bondmen but not fellow-elder) because I think that goes back to experience with God, or we might say in our time experience with the Spirit. These disciples received the Spirit at Ephesus and then came out with the features of elderhood in Acts 20. So we need to have experience with the Spirit, even our bodies, the whole person. In Corinthians, “Do ye not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?”, 1 Corinthians 6: 19. Not only the company as together there, the local assembly, but it comes down to their bodies; they are not their own, their bodies are held. He says earlier, “Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”, 1 Corinthians 3: 16. That was a collective thought, and then in chapter 6, “Do ye not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God; and ye are not your own?”, 1 Corinthians 6: 19.

So, I am glad that has come in, that the body is held. How can we place our body on the altar if it is not held in relation to the Spirit? It is a living sacrifice; we cannot lay it down in death; only Christ laid down in death His body a sacrifice; even martyrs did not do that; but with us it is a living sacrifice you place on the altar.

GAB Regarding the matter of fasting; is that appropriate to the present time? it was not appropriate when the bridegroom was present, but in the absence of the bridegroom and the Spirit here, fasting seems to be the appropriate thing. I am just wondering in connection with being filled with the Spirit, there has to be the displacement of certain things, even things which might be legitimate.

NJH I am glad you have gone back to that, because it is an appropriate attitude of heart and mind that we are marked by prayer and fasting. It becomes the characteristic of the believer, or should be, that he acknowledges that he gets no gain out of the flesh, he has seen it all gone in the death of Christ, and he is now related in life to the Spirit. So, it says here, “he shall guide you into all the truth”. The Lord says, “I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now”. I think ability to bear in the believer is because the Spirit is present.

JAB I was just thinking of the way in which these things work together; initially the renewal of the Holy Spirit. We were reading in Titus 3 about the washing of regeneration, which is something we come into the gain of in salvation, and then the renewal of the Holy Spirit. What you are really saying is that these are conditions that are new, not according to what is old at all, and they bring us into a whole new area of enjoyment, and that is where the fruit of the Spirit is going to be seen.

NJH Yes, that is good. The renewal where you are brought to new ground, new circumstances—the old has gone, the washing has dealt with the old and the power is there to do it. We speak about the new man; it is in the place of the old; that shows the power that is available in the Spirit, that where the old was in expression, it is put off, done with, and the new man comes into expression.

JSp I was just thinking about the necessity for the full position of Christ. The thing was there in Christ in a very wonderful and concrete way, but it is until Christ goes away and establishes His position in heaven; that is really the full position; we require that for Christianity in its fulness.

NJH That helps, because all power was given to Him. He

looked forward to and anticipated the coming of the Spirit. Only then would that give the saints capacity to take in what could be brought to them from heaven where Christ is. That is Christianity, and that is where service in the assembly flows out of.

JS Do you think this matter of guiding us into all the truth involves very sensitive conditions? Guiding seems a kind of gentle, tender character of service of the Spirit, do you think? I wondered if what the Lord says to each of the assemblies in Revelation, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies” (Revelation 2: 7), would have something of that character in it, do you think?

NJH I am glad you have said that, because when it came to the Jordan, it was said to the people, “ye have not passed this way heretofore” (Joshua 3: 4); and when it comes to spiritual things we do not know, we have no direction as to ourselves; it is the Spirit’s guidance, and therefore you are subject to the Spirit. It is a gentle directive we are given by the blessed Spirit within as to the way that we should go, both in truth and as to our life practically. The Spirit is a guide to you, it is light to your feet, it is not forced on us, but He is there to guide us, as it says, into all the truth. That should be proved in every meeting, it should have something of that character, that we are moving forward and getting guidance from the Spirit.

RT Is there something very living and current about this speaking, it says “he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak”? It is coming from heaven what He hears. It is a very beautiful touch that all He speaks is directly coming from heaven.

NJH The Spirit was intimately connected with the life of Christ. Then at His death, by the eternal Spirit, He offered Himself spotless to God. Heaven is not silent at the moment. (Heaven will be silent for about half an hour according to Revelation 8: 1, but that is because of what will transpire on the earth in a negative sense). What is happening in heaven is full of conversation; Paul heard things that were unutterable when he was caught up. Now the Spirit brings what He hears to us. I think that is a precious service of the Spirit, and the nearer we are to the Spirit, and the more room we make for Him, the more will flow down from a heavenly Christ. The things of the Father that Christ is bringing by the Spirit, into our hearts, what a quickening effect it would have on the company JCG That would be emphasised in the Lord’s words to the seven churches, “He that has an ear, let him hear”, and having an ear involves whether I am obedient and subject, ready to be guided, and have love for Christ in glory. Would it involve all that?

NJH You mean the state of heart is there in the one who has an ear. A worldling does not have an ear. I think it is a feature of the new man that the believer has an ear and he listens to what the Spirit says to the assemblies. Therefore it is a great scope of things available to the overcomer, which is very precious. When you go through the churches, referred to in Revelation 2 and 3, there is so much to get you down; Christ is moving there in the midst of the churches. You might say He is passing His judgment, a fair judgment. You would be despondent at the ruin publicly, but you can be assured what the Spirit says to the assemblies is beautiful, words of refinement, so that the bride is ready for Christ at the end of the book.

AMB What is said in verse 14, “He shall glorify me”, that must mean glorified in the hearts of those in whom the Spirit is working.

NJH Christ was glorified above and, as you say, He is now glorified in the hearts of the saints, “I am glorified in them”, John 17: 10.

AMB I think that is a great aspect of the Spirit’s service, that He brings about on the earth a response that is sympathetic with heaven and a state that is heavenly. I just thought that it is a fine thing to be exercised to have Christ glorified in our hearts, and that is by the Spirit.

NJH Very good, “Christ in you the hope of glory” (Colossians 1: 27), and that is relating to the nations. Maybe we should go on in what is said about glory in 2 Corinthians 3. There is a parenthesis between verse 7 and verse 16, and in verse 6 it says, “For the letter kills, but the Spirit quickens”. And then verse 17, “Now the Lord is the Spirit”, there is an interchange of divine names there; they never cease to be three Persons, but, in a certain sense, things are brought very close together, and I think that is because all that Christ is as brought to us, is made operational in the hearts of His own. So it says, “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”.

JCG Is it brought in to magnify the service of the Spirit and to magnify His Person amongst us, because of the way in which He brings in transformation and a change?

NJH Say more of what is on your mind.

JCG Well, it is bringing out the glory of the Person who is there, and although He has taken a comparatively lower place in the divine economy, nevertheless His Person is unchanged. This scripture brings out the glory of the One who helps us in the service.

NJH Exactly. It is “even as by the Lord the Spirit”, the authority is there of the Spirit. I do not want to sound derogatory, but two thousand years would be a very long dispensation if the Spirit had not come. Just think about it; nothing formed, nothing quickened, no ability or power to look on the glory of the Lord with His unveiled face. Nobody getting the gain of it! What it means to the Lord to have the Spirit here, having this sphere operational and persons changed, by looking on Himself with unveiled face. So by the Spirit we can look on the glory of the Lord with unveiled face, and be transformed according to the same image from glory to glory. How living the dispensation is for Christ when we consider the Spirit operational here. I would love it to lay hold of my life constantly, but I think it is a good thing to keep in mind what it means to Christ. The blessed Spirit, effective in the hearts of the Lord’s own people and bringing in this quickening effect, so that as they look on the glory of the Lord they are transformed.

CKR That would also again show the value of what He brought out through Paul, “this man is an elect vessel to me”, Acts 9: 15. He would bring out what was going to further the operational activity of the Holy Spirit in the bringing out of the truth of the mystery, and that worked out in localities.

NJH That is good. It is very true what you are saying, what the apostle Paul brought in. He was arrested from heaven so that all this order of things in the power of the Spirit would quicken and transform according to the same image.

JDG Is that the normal function of the Holy Spirit in the believer, “transformed according to the same image from glory to glory”? Daily we are being formed after Christ, awaiting the body of glory.

NJH That is good. It is a moral and spiritual thought, so that we are becoming more like Christ and more like one another. It is not just one person; Paul set out something extraordinary as an elect vessel, and no doubt he showed extraordinary light as to Christ in his suffering way, as well as his intelligence in the mystery, but also that there would be a whole order of things becoming more like Christ.

JS Do you think the fact of so many different persons being occupied, beholding the glory of the Lord, would allow liberty and conditions for the Spirit to bring about the change according to the same image from glory to glory?

NJH If you go with some poor view of the local brethren in their smallness you will not get much, but if you are related to the Spirit a whole order of things related to the Spirit is open to you.

RG Do you think you get the essence of this in its ideal conditions through Christ by one Spirit we have access to the Father, transformed from glory to glory? These are the same persons that, through Christ, by one Spirit have access to the Father.

NJH That access is available to us now. We have liberty, through Christ by one Spirit; a whole order of things open to us, and it is because, more and more, we recognise conditions for the presence of the Spirit.

JTB(Gr) So it is presented earlier in this chapter as the “Spirit of the living God”. Does that bring us into the system of liberty you are speaking of?

NJH Christ as the Son of the living God was revealed by the Father to Peter, and He said He would build His assembly. Here, it is the Spirit of the living God. It shows there is now a sphere capable of the operations of life. It is a living organism and the whole thing is under the touch of the Spirit to bring us into the immense liberty that is available to us.

RT Would looking on the glory of the Lord here be a full view of Christ? It is not just as He was, or as our Saviour, it is a full view of Christ, the place He has in the courts above in relation to the living assembly here.

NJH That is good. Settled conditions, beautiful; you might say it is an answer to that life and pathway of woe and pressure and suffering and eventual death. It is His exaltation, and the glory that surrounds that blessed Man. I think what you have said helps. The glory of the Lord; who could place a limit on that?

RT We would never have known Him as Head apart from this view that the Spirit would give us. He is the Head of the assembly and all that flows from Him as an ascended Head is available in the Spirit’s grace to us.

NJH That is the operational side, it is from the Head down, the whole wealth coming down; and the oil, referring to the Spirit, in Psalm 133; everything coming down from that exalted Head.

DTP I was just thinking the evidence of it is amongst us at the present time, of life, is it not? We find it in the first day of the week particularly, but that is maintained with us. Has there been a great sense of this liberty known since the ministry came to us as to the worship of the Spirit? Has that not set the saints more together in love, in view of these conditions finding expression? And it brings forward the glory of the Lord Himself.

NJH Yes, it does say that we are changed, or transformed. I do not think the change means that on Monday, or Tuesday, we change back. We know by experience we sometimes drop with the pressures of life. You have to keep in exercise to maintain what the Spirit has effected in the transformation. You are transformed according to the same image—it is from glory to glory; that does not involve going back to the world. From glory to glory is a great ascending, wonderful line when you think about it.

JCG Paul, when he saw the saints, thanked God and took courage. That is, he was ready to move forward. Help us more as to this matter of liberty in relation to being changed; it would involve helping us so that there would be a flow in the service of God, would it? The Spirit would not hinder in any sense in moving forward.

NJH No, only the covenant comes in as touched in the cup; the covenant is recognised in the cup; we are moving forward in a heavenly direction, and I think this should affect us in every occasion, and even in private meditation, because the covenant is here. While the Lord is the Spirit of the covenant where He is, setting us free in every area in which the saints will be taken, I understood that the covenant is very much our relationship here, so when this is set, the Spirit available, we should be progressing spiritually. Would you agree with that?

JCG Yes, so what you are stressing is that the conditions continue. It is stressed in the ministry of Mr Taylor and Mr Raven that the effect upon us of the Lord’s day, and particularly the manifestation of Christ at the Supper, should influence us throughout the week, and bring in the effect of spiritual impressions that would increase love and increase room for the Spirit amongst us.

NJH That is good. We have to admit that very often on Lord’s day morning we do touch matters and very soon drop; we are flesh, we are not able to sustain very much, but in the Spirit we should be progressing, because the Spirit remains with us. He is power in the service of God. He is power in our devotions, we pray, and fast. As we come up to the meeting the Spirit is with us.

AMB One of the services of the Spirit is to help us to know the things that have been freely given to us of God (1 Corinthians 2: 12). So there are things that have been freely given to us that are for our enjoyment, but we need to experience the help of the Spirit to really know them, and knowing them would bring us into the Spirit’s liberty.

NJH Yes, it is freely given to us of God; God’s side is that He has held nothing back. I think that brings out what lay behind the giving; it meant so much to the Father that He could not hold back such a gift to us, in having the Spirit with us and in us. We should look at Acts 5.

RJC God must be obeyed rather than man. We are governed by divine thoughts and divine principles and divine giving, it would all control us, do you think? They were not turned aside by any opposition here.

NJH Exactly. It is put differently in what Peter says earlier, “as for us we cannot refrain from speaking of the things which we have seen and heard”, Acts 4: 20. Now it is obedience; God must be obeyed, and then the Holy Spirit is given to those that obey Him. I think that involves conditions in persons. When it says of the Lord that He learned obedience, that was not that there was any disobedience in Christ, but how He met circumstances in manhood. For instance, as waiting in John 11, although He had the power of life, the power of healing, He waited till after the death of Lazarus; he learned obedience because He waited for the word from the Father. With us, we have to obey. Disobedience is in us according to Adam’s nature. The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God.

RG It is a remarkable thing that we have not to be behind the apostles. He says, “And we are his witnesses of these things”. The we is in italics, that was the apostles, but then Peter brings us in; “and the Holy Spirit also, which God has given to those who obey him”. So we are not to be behind in our entrance into what the divine mind has always been for all, from the apostles downwards.

NJH The witness comes in the Spirit. It is very remarkable that the Father comes into the principle of witness, or bearing testimony, and now in our time the Spirit comes into the matter of witness. So, it raises the whole matter of witness, of testimony to the world.

RG You think about the glory that Peter saw when he was on the mount of transfiguration, with the other two disciples, “such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory” (2 Peter 1: 17); we are not to be behind in our experience. They had a tremendous experience of glory on that mount, but we are not to be behind in that. The Spirit is here to give us an entrance into the same sphere. Would that be right?

NJH Exactly. I think that helps.

Ques. It says the Spirit bears witness with our spirit (Romans 8: 16); what would you say about that scripture?

NJH That is what our brother referred to as to the Spirit’s leadership, and Romans 8 really is that; the persons as led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. It shows the cognisance or adaptability of our spirits to what the Holy Spirit is moving in; witnessing with our spirit. I think the believer, as indwelt by the Spirit and having a new state, his spirit can be linked with the Holy Spirit. What do you say?

Rem. I think that makes the matter very real, “with our spirit”, a part of us.

NJH Very intimate; not only the body, the mind and the heart, but the spirit; we are very close to the Spirit in that regard.

JDG In the one who obeys there is no perverse will active; it is a state of subjection to the Lord, is it not?

NJH That is good. It comes out in this chapter where the challenge is to the Spirit, and there was a perverse will in Ananias and Sapphira, and then, in the high priest. Then it comes to this point that the apostle witnesses to such, and he says, “and the Holy Spirit also, which God has given to those that obey him”. I think that is the state of soul.

DAB You referred to the witness in John’s epistle and, on Thursday night in our reading, we spent quite a bit of time talking over the importance of the water. The water is for cleansing; it may not bear on this scripture, but I just wondered as to the conditions that are necessary for both the reception of the Spirit, and the maintenance of the liberty of the Spirit in our souls. I think it is a very important point, particularly in the immoral and corrupting days in which we live. Not only the initial aspect of the water applying to us in relation to the death of Christ, but it needs the constant application that we might be kept in this state where we are obedient persons to God.

NJH The Spirit, the water and the blood bear witness as one (1 John 5: 8). I think it comes up again as to the conditions for the presence of the Spirit. Now, what is public in Christendom, and we are part of it, is that they separate the witness of the three, they take one and leave out the others. They leave out the water aspect, which is essential if we are to know the divine presence.

JTB(Ed) I was just wondering why it says here, “Which God has given”. In John it is the Father, but here it is God. Does it bring out the importance which God attaches to the use of the Spirit by His people here?

NJH No doubt it was the purpose of God that we should have the Spirit; the purpose of God is linked with the name of the Father. But it must have been always in God’s mind. It is referred to in the blessing of Abraham that the Spirit should come to the nations (Galatians 3: 14), so it would be in the heart of God; but the Father being brought in earlier must be as to the purpose of God that we should have the Spirit.

JTB(Ed) I wondered if it is set out in Caleb’s history, do you think? He wholly followed Jehovah, a man of another spirit (that is not the Holy Spirit of course). But there were clearly conditions in his own heart, in his own circumstances which were conducive to his following Jehovah and coming into possession of Hebron; he was brought through, he would be guided into all the truth, he would follow the ark over the Jordan, do you think? He would follow the Spirit’s leadership (in type) from Numbers 21 and then he takes possession of Hebron. Is that really the culmination of all that comes out in John’s gospel relating to the purpose of God?

NJH That is good. Because “another spirit” links with what we had in Romans 8; there is unison there, but immediately they come into suffering, because following with the land clearly in their heart, which is typical of the objective of the Spirit, the people were going to stone them. So, it shows that that will come, but let us keep before us what the objective was with Caleb; he goes right through and he makes his claims. He says he would take the toughest part of the territory of the land; he would take where the giants were, he was not frightened by them; the spirit of cowardice did not mark him.

JCG Cornelius was one who obeyed. In relation to the conditions it says he was “pious, and fearing God with all his house, both giving much alms to the people, and supplicating God continually”, Acts 10: 1. When he addresses Peter he says, “we are all present before God to hear all things that are commanded thee of God”, Acts 10: 33. And while they heard the word the Spirit fell on them. Do you think there was the condition of obedience there? You were stressing the conditions that are there before in which the Spirit is free to operate.

NJH That is a very good scripture. We do speak about the results, what comes out characteristically in the believer following the reception of the Spirit, but Cornelius is one where there were certain conditions marking him before the Spirit was given. Cornelius is quite remarkable. There was something there, in Cornelius, that justified God giving the Spirit. He was giving alms, he was before God and there were requests, there was prayer. It says of Saul of Tarsus, “behold, he is praying” (Acts 9: 11); he did not have the Spirit at that point, but there was some condition in that person that the Spirit could be given to.

Reading at Grangemouth
15 September 2007

KEY TO INITIALS

A. M. Brown

R. Gardiner

W. M. Patterson

D. A. Brown

G. B. Grant

D. T. Pye

G. A. Brown

J. C. Gray

C. K. Robinson

J. A. Brown

J. D. Gray

D. A. Steven

J. T. Brown (Ed.)

N. J. Henry

J. Strachan

J. T. Brown (Gr.)

J. Marshall

J. Spinks

R. J. Campbell

T. C. Munro

R. Taylor