THE NEED FOR ARRIVING AT THE FULL-GROWN MAN

Numbers 21: 4–20; Romans 8: 1–14; Galatians 4: 18–31; Ephesians 4: 7–15

RT I read these scriptures, dear brethren, that they may be a guide to us in speaking of what it is to arrive at the full-grown man. Paul writes in Galatians “until Christ shall have been formed in you”. I thought of a verse in Isaiah where God says, “thus saith Jehovah, that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel—Fear not, for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine”, Isaiah 43: 1. If God took us up, as He has done, He has something in mind for every one of us. The forgiveness of our sins was an initial matter to free us from the guilt of our conscience, but He had a great object in mind for every one of us. We were reading the other night about the curtains in the tabernacle, every inch of those curtains was serviceable, they were all measured very distinctly, as the boards, right down to the pegs, all the items were useful and all had a purpose. I would like that we should all have a deeper sense in our hearts of God’s purpose for us in saving us from our sins. That was basic and essential but it was because He had a purpose in mind for us. We see it very much in Jacob, he was a man who had the sense of belonging to God but he settled down very quickly in his own arrangements. That is something that is not unknown to us, we are apt to settle down in the arrangements that we make and seek to bring God into them, pray that God may help us in them, but all the time it is our circumstances. That is like Jacob in Laban’s house, but something came into his soul so that he said, This is not God’s mind for us. That happened when Joseph was born, some ray of light of Christ came into his heart and he says, These are not the circumstances that God has in mind for me. He did not call him to be under Laban, toiling and harassed; he began to move, and it was in that journey that his name was changed to Israel.

The passage in Numbers 21 is a type of Romans 8, so we read them together and we see in it all God had in mind so that we come to rely no longer on ourselves in our arrangements, but we begin to rely on the Spirit. One thing, if we are going to be formed, is we need an object outside of ourselves, which is Christ. If there is not such an object in our life, we are not really in the Christian path vitally. We may have appropriated the work of Christ and attached it to ourselves, but God’s desire is to draw us away from ourselves and give us confidence in the Spirit and Christ glorified, so that there is something being formed in us. In Galatians Paul says that he travailed that Christ may be formed. Sometimes much less is in our minds, like Abraham saying, “Oh that Ishmael might live before thee!”, Genesis 17: 18. We are all prone to settle for something less, but I would like to exercise and encourage our hearts that God’s mind is that Christ may be formed in us.

In Ephesians it says, “until we all arrive”—I used to think that would be in the future, but it is now, we are to arrive at the full-grown man, “at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”, in our lives and in our localities. There is something being formed that owes nothing to this world, but it is the pure product of divine workmanship, I have formed thee—thou art my servant”, Isaiah 44: 21. Well, as we proceed I think God would encourage our hearts to give ourselves over to the patient grace of His hands, forming us and bringing us into conformity to His beloved Son. So as we read Romans in conjunction with Numbers we will see it is a love matter. They were really telling lies saying, We have no food, no water, and it was all round about them. This state of murmuring had persisted with them for forty years, and it had to be ended. God moved of Himself to end it in this serpent lifted up, typifying our Lord Jesus on the cross, delivered up for us all. There in that One, who should never have been there, God condemned the working of sin in the flesh so that it should no longer have dominion over us.

JTB(Gr) God arrives at something in Jacob where He says, “At this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!”, Numbers 23: 23. It is what God has in mind, it is an objective that has been arrived at in a substantial way. Do you think that is really the effect of what we have here in chapter 21?

RT I think so. As this is arrived at in the soul, we begin to journey. They had been wandering all those years, but from this experience they turned toward the sun-rising. That was Jacob, he had wrestled with God, he was a man who was limping, he had no more confidence in the flesh, but as he passed over the beautiful verse says, “the sun rose upon him”, Genesis 32: 31. Did the sun not rise on the whole universe? It did, but it rose upon him; a man limping, but there was the warm sun shining upon him. That is like us, as we come to see our weakness, we have no confidence in ourselves, we prove divine favour and grace strengthening us as moving forward.

JAB Could you tell us what the difference is between having an appreciation of Christ as the One who has saved us and washed us from our sins, and having Him as our object in the way you are bringing Him before us?

RT Well, I think we need help to keep the object before us. These people had already known the blood on the lintel, they had known what Christ did to get them out of Egypt. I think we need an object to deliver us from having confidence in ourselves. The One who died for us is also serving us that He may bring us into conformity to the object He has in mind for us.

JAB I feel the importance of what you are bringing before us, I was just thinking of the verse in Revelation 1, “To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood” (Revelation 1: 5), then he goes on immediately to say, “and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory”, (Revelation 1: 6). Do you get that progression of thought there in that one verse?

RT Yes, it requires a movement in our affections. The work on the cross, His blood being shed is never to become historical, the current appreciation of it keeps us in touch with a glorified man, drawing our hearts to Him where He is. I think it requires movement in our souls. These people had known the blood, they knew the manna, and there was plenty of water, but they said “our soul loathes this light bread”. That is an unsettled state that persists until we get clear of the dominion and the power sin would have over us in the flesh.

TCM So, there is a measure of repentance when they say, “We have sinned, in that we have spoken against Jehovah, and against thee”. Do you think there is a facing up to the departure there had been, and then they see the bite of the serpent, then the great relief as they look upon the brazen serpent?

RT God showed them how awful their condition was, “Jehovah sent fiery serpents among the people, which bit the people”. Now, I do not want to press this too far, but God allows certain things in our lives, in our localities, and universally, to show the bite of the serpent, if we are in an unsettled state like this, telling lies, discontented, and loathing the light bread. God sent these fiery serpents to show the source of it is in the serpent, which bit the people, so that they died. Well, the next verse is, they say they have sinned, God would show us the awfulness of the thing to bring us to ourselves, to see that this is not in line with the blood that was shed for me. It is not in line with Romans where it says, “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death ... God, having sent his own Son”. Instead of coming in in judgment, He has sent His own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, and He has condemned sin in the flesh in order to break its power over us.

TCM It is interesting that after this is all faced you get the thought of the singing, the song and the thought of princes and nobles. Does that link on with your thought of arriving at the full-grown man?

RT Yes, I wonder how long it was since they sang. Well, we can apply it to ourselves, dear brethren, how long is it since we were really lifted up in spirit, and in the joy of rivers of water springing up into eternal life? That is what Paul is

teaching in Romans 8, in minding the things of the flesh, there is no singing in that, but in the things of the Spirit we are brought to know life and peace, and brought into the joy of the sons of God.

NJH In chapter 14 God shows the generation or type of man that cannot go into the land, but those that do, in principle, have to have their state attended to by God, is that right? It is a new state in Romans 8 and it is on that basis that formation takes place.

RT Very good, so there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, that is where God has placed you, in Christ Jesus. You may not have arrived at the joy of it, but it is not His mind that these other things should have dominion. So, he goes over the ground to show that we will never meet things by trying to improve ourselves as in the flesh, God has met all that in His Son, and has given the gift and power of the Holy Spirit so that we may walk in newness of life.

RJC I wondered whether we have to be convicted to look. God has provided an answer in the death of Christ, but we have to look to be healed; so that a certain responsibility is on us, although God has provided everything that we might come into the enjoyment of these things.

RT We can just apply it to ourselves. Why is there an unsettled state in my soul?

Why is there an unsettled state among the people? Well, God brings in these serpents to show why it is so, that we have been deluded. They had lost the taste for the manna, they did not appreciate that for thirty-eight years God had provided for them; they did not need new clothes, nor their shoes renewed, the manna was there every morning, they did not realise the goodness and grace of God, they began to live to themselves and they became discontented. God says, I will show you the source of that, it is Satan, the devil, the fiery serpent; but how He meets it is, I will send my Son; He that knew no sin was made sin for us that we might become God’s righteousness in Him, that we might be formed in a new order of things altogether, and it has not to be put off, dear brethren.

DBR I was thinking that it involves the judicial glory of

God, that is how the thing has been met. God has shown His glory judicially and there has been One equal to that in manhood, able to take in the whole matter, not only the guilt, but the state that was necessary, to remove it. God has done that gloriously, has He not?

RT The judgment should have fallen on us. Think of God in His goodness all these years and they are saying these things, the judgment did not fall on them or upon us, it fell on Christ. One who was able to bear that judgment, so that the dominion of sin, the power of the devil and all his artifices, may be broken for us.

DBR The necessity that lies on our part is to look and live. I was thinking of what you said as to the state amongst us, we cannot ignore it, we must be honest about it, but really the relief comes as we see that God has met the condition, that we accept it and work it out amongst us.

RT Yes, and it is individual, no point in speaking generally about the state among us, it is the state in me, because the state of the company is the state of the individuals. So that is what it was here, they were all saying these things but God is exposing the awfulness of this line working, and how much it cost Him in that He sent His own Son to meet it, so that the power of it over me may be broken for ever. I think God would win our confidence in the way that He has met this line of discontent so that it should not continue. Underlying it is the previous chapter, deliverance from the power of sin, through Jesus Christ our Lord who has met the whole thing.

DCB In the first verse of chapter 8 of Romans there is a great statement of truth, so then Paul goes on and speaks about “has set me free”, that is what is needed, is it not? These wonderful statements can be made but “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free”.

RT Yes, you may say it is objective, but it is not unreal; there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, that is what God has done, and now He says I want you to come into the joy of it. So he goes over these things, according to flesh, and the mind of the flesh, these things are working, they that are in flesh cannot please God. Then he says, “But ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God’s Spirit dwell in you”. You notice he is seeking to bring us under a new authority, a new influence and power, so that we are able to walk in these very circumstances of the wilderness in the power and joy of being sons of God.

DBR Do you think it is of interest that this comes near Numbers 21? It comes really into the final stage of the wilderness journey, and it is just where we are, and we can be assured that the enemy will seek to use any means to divert us, and use any means in me to divert us. Do you think that would need to be faced?

RT Yes, that was in my mind in reading it, after this there are other enemies to meet, there is Moab tempting us to settle down in a social, comfortable order of things as the two and a half tribes did; they began to say, I like these present arrangements, I have plenty of business, my family and my own comfortable circumstances, I will settle down here. They came short of the mind of the Spirit. I do not think there was any singing in the two and a half tribes. The singing of the service of God was going on over Jordan. This experience is to quicken our steps so that we move in triumph; if Moab comes, as he does, we are able to triumph over him, and over these seductive influences of the enemy, to come into the area where we are in normal heavenly relationship with God.

JS Do you think we need to come to a definite recognition of what operates in our flesh, sinful flesh, and definite recognition of the power there is in the Spirit?

RT Yes, I think that is why God sent these fiery serpents to show them. What they were saying was so awful, but the awfulness of it is not for you to turn over a new leaf and say, I will try and do better next week, it is to see that this power, God alone can meet it, and has met it and He has met it in love. He met it in One who is able to break its power and authority so that we become amenable to the mind of the Spirit and the things of the Spirit and the leading of the Spirit. Is that what you had in mind?

JS Quite so. I think as we come to a definite recognition of the Spirit individually it helps us to make way for what the Spirit is doing in His leading in a collective sense.

RT Yes, that is right. Abraham said, Will Ishmael not do; he says, Things have been difficult so long, cannot I get a bit of peace, will Ishmael not do? Sarah says, That cannot do, it has to be cast out, cast out the bondmaid and her son. What is in mind is brethren after the pattern of Isaac, a new generation coming in that is according to the mind of God, and relying on the power and grace of the Spirit to be formed in the features of Christ.

CKR Help us in this look—‘looked intently’ the note says. You wonder perhaps if we consider enough the glory of the work of the Lord Jesus from this aspect, for it must also cause us to value deeply the gift of the Holy Spirit. These things could just become truths we can easily quote, the question is what is reaching the inwards.

RT Yes, the first effect of it is self-judgment, I begin to see that I am in that state, and God in His love met it to free me, so that I may come into the joy of living and walking in the power of the Spirit. He has condemned it that we may not fall back on it again. The ‘looked intently’ is that we come to a final judgment about it. We are still in flesh, until the Lord comes, but the power of it has been broken, and our outlook has been fixed on Christ, and to know the power of the Spirit of God.

CKR Do you think it is instructive too that the Lord brings this into John 3? It is one of the ‘musts’ of John’s gospel, and that is immediately before the gift of the Spirit in chapter 4.

RT Yes, I am glad you refer to that, the Son of man must be lifted up, it was a public matter, it was not something done in a corner, it was a spectacle there. Christ was lifted up, and it was shown there that He bore the judgment that was due to us, in view of the power of sin being broken, so that we may come under the influence and power of the Spirit of God.

NJH The fiery serpents were not removed, and in principle the serpent of brass was not removed. It can be drawn on today. We can look to Christ in this character today.

RT Neither was removed, they are working here, but the power of the fiery serpent has been broken for me as I look intently.

NJH It is condemned, as we had in Romans. God could not remove it, it would not be in keeping with His nature, would it, for Him to do that?

DAS Does the look really involve repentance on my part, it is every one, every man, it involves repentance, does it?

RT Yes, and what we are saying is intensely individual, and it is a necessary experience to enjoy Christian ground. We are not unchristianising anyone but it is normal Christian experience to be walking in the power of the Spirit of God, no longer serving sin. These people told lies, they were distorted in their view of things: Think of what God had done in giving them the manna, in bringing them out of Egypt, and they say, Why have you brought us out? See the power of the flesh, dear brethren, it would delude us about God’s thought as to sending His Son and shedding His blood. Why did He bring us out of Egypt? There is the power of the serpents working and God exposes it in its fulness, as I believe He would do to us all, and we come to see that we cannot live under that bondage.

GBG The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, is that another regulating principle for life, so that the flesh does not regulate or govern us? So we can ask ourselves, Do my actions have their source in the Spirit, my motives, do they have their source in the Spirit? We have to take it to ourselves, do you think?

RT The contrast is, it is either in the fiery serpent, the devil, or else it is coming from the Spirit.

GBG In John 3 you get the work of Christ as lifted up, and then whoever believes on Him, that is Christ where He is; that is the need, the work of Christ, then Christ is the object.

RT Yes, and in Romans it is clear that the work of Christ has made room for the Spirit. These words, “according to” in Romans 8 are of interest, “do not walk according to flesh”. The propensity of the flesh is still there, but we do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit. See how the things have been superseded, according to flesh and the things of the flesh, and then the things of the Spirit. There is a whole system of things that God would bring us into, where something is being formed that owes nothing to the flesh, but owes everything to the grace of God and the Spirit of God.

DBR Would you say something about verse 6 in that way? “The mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit life and peace”. I used to think the mind of the Spirit is the mind of the Spirit Himself, but it is the mind of the Spirit in us, and that is really the triumph, is it not, that persons who could well be governed by the mind of the flesh are able to deal with that by the mind of the Spirit? And then the Spirit acts as a new power to give us new motives and new regulations, do you think?

RT Very helpful. Maybe you will say more about it, the mind of the Spirit is the Spirit in us, in contrast to the mind of the flesh. So that when tempted, dear brethren, what do we resort to? Abraham said, Will not Ishmael do? We are apt to resort to that, but then you see in his wife the mind of the Spirit working. That will not do, the son of the handmaid will not inherit with Isaac; that is the mind of the Spirit working in Sarah, do you think?

DBR She had her ideal in Isaac, did she not? So we need to have an ideal. God’s ideal.

RT Yes, I think so, we need to have an object and the power to reach that object. How beautiful is the mind of the Spirit in us, life and peace. So that what we express in our actions is this formation that we are talking about; there is a new mind working, a new authority that we are under, that is tending to life and peace.

JSp After that verse you have quoted, “the mind of the flesh is death”, the next verse says, “the mind of the flesh is enmity against God”. Where things are not according to God they will turn against God. I was thinking of Ishmael persecuting, he not only mocked but he persecuted.

RT We know what we are talking about when we are saying these things, it is experimental, “the mind of the flesh is enmity against God”, it has all come from the fiery serpent. God would show us the source of some of the things that may be said among us, in our attitudes and dispositions that are the mind of the flesh. In contrast to that he says, “ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God’s Spirit dwell in you”. That means that He is there in residence. He is a power in residence and Christ is in expression in the walk of the believer.

Rem. The covenant in Malachi was of life and peace; I wondered if this leads on to priestliness.

RT Well priesthood is in contrast to the flesh; you will never make the flesh holy, it can never be improved on, and I think the mind of the Spirit is connected with holiness. The fact is when the Spirit of God is spoken of in relation to us He is referred to as the Holy Spirit, to guard our minds, so that nothing of the flesh can intrude. In fact it says, “having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life”, Romans 6: 22. That is all part of the formation, dear brethren, that there is another character being formed, so that we are not governed by these other things, but we are holy brethren that Paul speaks about. There is something being formed of a new character working in the believer.

DBR Later in the chapter you get the Spirit of Christ, “if any one has not the Spirit of Christ he is not of him”, that is the new character do you think? We are not only in Christ but we are of Christ, that could only be by the Spirit, do you think?

RT Well, the verse goes on, scripture helps us to put it simply, “but if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin”. That is, we know our state and our propensities but then it says “the Spirit life on account of righteousness”. So that there is the formation, if Christ be in you, what a change, what a formation, that there is something being formed that owes nothing to the flesh but owes everything to our links with God through His Spirit.

DBR “The body is dead on account of sin”, does that mean that there is such a character there that sin has no power over it? Is that how you understand that?

RT Yes. We are tempted by all sorts of things, maybe right things even, but if they are drawing us away from being formed in Christ’s character, if they are taking up too much of our time, and are drawing us away from the circle of the fellowship, these are temptations to which the Christian does not respond. What temptations are put in the way of the people of God today, the world would make alliance with them, and say, We can see that God is with you, come and join us and bring what benefit you have among us. That is current in the world today with disastrous results, but “if Christ be in you, the body is dead”. That is the Christian follows the leading of the Spirit and the appeals of the grace of Christ, and we come to know the Spirit is life on account of righteousness.

JAB Is that because if Christ is in me then I am satisfied with Him and I do not need anything else?

RT Yes, satisfied with Christ. I wonder if we are really, you know. God allows certain things to test His own work in us. Think of the divine pleasure in seeing persons who do not answer to the temptations, the body is dead. I think you can see it in Abraham; the king of Sodom came to meet Abraham after the conflict and he wanted to give him certain things. Abraham says, “I have lifted up my hand to Jehovah, the Most High God” (Genesis 14: 22), what can you add to that? He was satisfied. I think, if we look back on certain things that trouble us, it is because we are not satisfied. I often think of Naphtali, he was satisfied with favour and full of the blessings; he would not be tempted, he would not be tempted for another field. There was that man Naboth, he was offered and refused another vineyard, he was satisfied, living in divine favour.

TCM Is the expression, “God, having sent his own Son” a great lever and appeal to the affections?

RT It was a love matter, He sent His own Son. He saw the plight we were in, the power of the devil working, and He sent His own Son to meet it. So God’s Son is the object for our hearts, then if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness. So you find such people, like they were in Numbers, journeying forward, singing; they are in the joy of their own salvation, as it says here, “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”.

JMar Could you help us in what is involved in being led by the Spirit of God?

RT Well, one thing is that you are obedient. You have more confidence in the Spirit than you have in your own ideas. You can see that is what this chapter is leading up to. In Numbers 21, instead of their murmurings they are taking the journey and they are facing toward the sun-rising. Another day dawns, being led by the Spirit is, we have heaven before us, we have Christ before us, and we have the assembly before us.

JMar It seems to be linked up with sonship.

RT Yes, sonship is the formative side of it, seen in our wilderness experiences, “these are sons of God”. This is not sonship on Lord’s day morning only, it is the practical working out of things in the daily exercises of the path where we are led by the Spirit of God, and we are in the dignity and power of that relationship.

RJC It says, “but ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father”. Is that like the singing in Numbers 21? An outgoing of affection to God Himself as we make way for the Spirit.

RT Yes, instead of being in bondage they are overcomers. All these temptations come in, but they are moving in another power that takes them right over Jordan into the heavenly land. They begin to realise how much they have missed and how much is before them for present enjoyment, the land and all its fruits; here is the earnest of it, you may say, in this well, they are rising up and singing to it.

Rem. Could you say something about the digging?

RT It involves exercise, the word ‘travail’ in Galatians would be in accord with the digging. Paul says, “I again travail in birth until Christ shall have been formed in you”. The digging, I think, is that we are not going to settle until we are in the full enjoyed relationship; it is not just a text of scripture to me, but the digging is in my soul exercise so that I do not rest until I reach the well of water springing up into eternal life. It is interesting that Paul had this exercise for every local company. Corinth, to be a chase virgin; Galatians, he wanted Christ to be formed in them; Colossians, he speaks about Christ being in them; and in Ephesians you have that too. What is our desire for the brethren? What is our desire for ourselves? That we might be nice, kind people, that we might prosper, that we might have good health and all these things? No, Paul says there is travail needed. He went through the travail, that was how he ministered. There has also to be travail in the Galatians, and in ourselves. He is encouraging them and us to take up the exercise that we are not content until Christ is formed, not only our knowledge of the Saviour, but Christ is formed in the believer.

AMB I suppose the digging that has been referred to would involve displacement in me, would it not? The travail might relate to our exercises as to one another in prayer in that way, do you think?

RT Yes, that is very helpful. So the mother comes into the travail, she has an ideal and she wants it to be perfect. Abraham says, Will Ishmael not do? No, the mother says nothing else will do, whatever the travail necessitates. That is like Hannah is it not? Think of the travail she had that a man-child might be there, a man for God.

AMB If we were to take up this exercise, in travailing for one another, then are we putting ourselves in the way of the work of the Spirit? Would it be right to associate the thought of travailing with the work of the Spirit in each one of us?

RT Yes, I think it would come out in our prayers. Epaphras combated earnestly in prayer for the brethren at Colosse that they might stand perfect and complete in all the will of God (Colossians 4: 12). If we were more like that it would help our prayer meetings. Dear brethren, that is one of the meetings, I observe, that is carelessly attended. Lots of the prayers are about our needs and our circumstances. How much is there combating in prayer that Christ may be formed in the saints? We all need help in our circumstances and there are daily prayers for that by us all, I am sure there must be, but how many are combating in prayer that Christ may be formed in us? First of all, we start with ourselves, is there travail with me, combat with me that Christ would be formed in me and in my brethren?

GBG I was thinking of what our brother was saying as to the feature of the Holy Spirit in ourselves. The apostle says to the Thessalonians, “Thus, yearning over you”, 1 Thessalonians 2: 8. I wonder if that is ourselves taking on that character, the Spirit was marked by yearning as hovering over the face of the waters, we can take that feature on ourselves.

RT Yes, I think the Spirit would strengthen us if we set ourselves like that, as Epaphras for Colosse, combating in prayer, primarily there is something expressed in ourselves, we do not rest, we have an ideal. What exercise it must have cost Abraham to “Cast out the maid servant”! We do not compromise about it—“Cast out the maid servant and her son; for the son of the maid servant shall not inherit with the son of the free woman”.

Well, the application of it is that we are walking in the light of the assembly. Jerusalem above is free which is our mother, heavenly light has come in that is to govern us. Many other influences are abroad in Christendom today, insidiously at work to becloud the enjoyment and expression of assembly features. Many things may seem all right, but they are not of the free woman, but are elements that would bring in bondage that would be short of a full formation of Christ. They need to be watched by us, brethren, these elements are at work, so the word is “Cast out the maid servant and her son”. Abraham was the father, she had some link, but that will not do, it must be the son of the free woman. We have to come into the full joy of the heavenly position. That is what we have in Ephesians, we will just speak of it for a moment. It says, “until we all arrive ... at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ; in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching which is in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error; but, holding the truth in love, we may grow up to him in all things, who is the head, the Christ”. There it is put very concisely, dear brethren, there are the influences of the maid servant, tossed about by every wind of that teaching, the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning; these things are at work today that would lower and hinder us from to coming the full-grown man. We tend to put this off, saying things will be all right when the Lord comes. He will put things right, but He is looking and He is serving us tonight that we may be arriving now at something of the full-grown man, the stature of the Christ.

JTB(Ed) It is really Christ as model in that sense, is it? The measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ. I was just thinking of the psalm, “Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all my members were written”, Psalm 139: 16. Does God look upon us potentially in that sense, does it help to get the divine perspective? Is that the great lever then as we consider the cost to God that we might be introduced into these things?

RT Psalm 139 was all done in secret.

JTB(Ed) Yes, I was thinking of the fashioning, but travail was necessary to bring it to the birth, do you think?

RT That is, our links with the Spirit are largely in secret. Our link with Christ too is a secret link, but it is powerful. I am glad you referred to Psalm 139, I thought about it. It says, “in thy book all my members were written; during many days were they fashioned”—

‘Long proved in secret help

With thee alone’ (Hymn 160)

something going on in the soul in our secret histories with God, and the result of it is something being fashioned that is going to shine in its own lustre in another day. But in the meantime we are arriving at the unity of the faith, at the full- grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ.

JTB(Ed) Yes. God looked, did He not? “Thine eyes did see”, just to think of God looking, then we are required to look and there is a result, is that right?

RT Very beautiful, and this I thought would give us confidence. This is the Man that descended to the lower parts of the earth, but He has ascended above all the heavens and from that position He has given apostles. We are to continue steadfastly in the teaching of the apostles that is all part of the formation of this full-grown man. The teaching of the apostles remains; the prophets of God bring in a living ministry to sustain us—all flowing from a glorified Christ. And then He has given evangelists, and shepherds and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, not to make anything of man. Some persons have had these gifts and attached them to themselves and there has been a malformation, but this is all proceeding orderly from a glorified Christ, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ. That is going on today, I trust it is going on in this meeting, something flowing from a Man in glory that is forming us, no longer to be tossed about, but bringing us into conformity with this glorious Person.

JS Would you say something about “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man”? I was just thinking that until we all arrive at the unity of the faith would mean that we have unity before us in relation to the knowledge of this Person, so as to arrive at God’s ideal, do you think?

RT Yes, this whole section is something to be arrived at now, so that there are resources in the ministries, and what the Lord gives in ministry is to be respected, and it has to be received and searched out like the Bereans did, to see if these things were so. It has to be tested and it has to be bowed to. The authority in the teaching of the apostles is to be persevered in, and as we come under that influence formation goes on, and we are established and formed in measure to the full-grown man.

JSp In connection with that, as to the expression used in verse 16, “the increase of the body”, it seems to me that it runs alongside that. I was thinking of Epaphras, he was “one of you” (Colossians 4: 12), an assembly man. Do you think the test today is if we are real assembly persons? Are we working on the same line that God is working, for the formation and the expression of the assembly locally? Do you think that is right?

RT Yes, I think that is the application, it should be working locally. The scripture goes on to refer to the joints of supply, that is the local brethren, so that they are all working together so that the local meeting is improving. Can we say that about our meeting? That the brethren are pulling together under the influence and ministration that is coming from a glorified Christ. That is the body working and growing up, so that what is in expression in the company, is the Head as expressed in the body.

DAB The expression, ‘the full-grown man’ has been used, what is that, what characterises the full-grown man? Is it our appreciation and formation after the character of Christ?

RT Yes, the full-grown man, he explains it in the next verse, “that we may be no longer babes”—we are not immature; the enemy gets a great advantage through immaturity, he brings something that appeals to our flesh. The full-grown man is able to resist the wiles of the devil. That is only one side of it. I think we should be able to reflect Christ, something that acts and expresses the character of another kind of man altogether.

DAB I just feel for myself that it is fairly easy to settle for something less than that, but we need to stretch out spiritually, to realise that this is the divine ideal for each one of us, and the Spirit is the power to enable us to reach this, do you think?

RT That is my exercise. You feel the temptations there are today, in the prosperity of material things, to settle for what is short of the full-grown man; but there is power in the Spirit and what is flowing from an ascended Christ so that the divine objective can be reached. I think the scriptures themselves show, if we read carefully what we have had today, the supply of power there is to reach this formation now, in these very bodies, in our very localities, in our very households, as we maintain ourselves in self-judgment of the power of the flesh, and make room for the power of the Spirit of God, so that we reach normal assembly conditions.

DBR That would lead to power to refuse anything else; we need that power too, I know I do anyway, power to refuse an alternative. If you look at the whole history of the recovery you see how this thought has been expressed in men, men who were full-grown in that sense, and were able to bring the living word of God to bear on us. One of the things, perhaps, we need courage and conviction about, is not to go back on it, do you think?

RT Yes, I feel that. I think that is the encouragement of the Scriptures, it is the One who descended, who has ascended, all is flowing from Him, and that is not going to run out, it will go through the dispensation. He has ascended above all heavens, beyond the reach of what Satan can interfere with, such is the power flowing from a glorified Man into hearts that have the mind of the Spirit, and no longer mind the things of the flesh. They are overcomers, with an ear for the voice of the Spirit, and the grace of Christ that is flowing in the power of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.

TCM So there is what proceeds from a glorified, ascended Christ in these gifts that would give definite direction as over against this wind of that teaching. Do you think it would lead in a definite positive direction all with a view to something?

RT Yes, they are given from a glorified Christ. The work is proceeding in all its power and authority, and, as has been said, it needs to be made room for. There are many voices today that are not coming from a glorified Christ, but the opened ear of the mind of the Spirit can know who is speaking. That is the test, that the mind of the Spirit in me, and in another, can discern what is coming from Christ glorified that is leading to the edifying of the body. So that there is some reflection in us, locally and individually, of the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ.

Reading at Grangemouth
17 September 2005

KEY TO INITIALS

A. M. Brown

R. J. Campbell

C. K. Robinson

D. A. Brown

G. B. Grant

D. A. Steven

D. C. Brown

N. J. Henry

J. Spinks

J. A. Brown

J. Marshall

J. Strachan

J. T. Brown (Ed.)

T. C. Munro

R. Taylor

J. T. Brown (Gr.)

D. B. Robertson