NEW YORK

LORD AND HEAD

Romans 10: 8,9; Acts 10: 36-38; 1 Corinthians 11: 3; Colossians 1: 18

E.C.B. I thought we might speak about Jesus as Lord and of Christ as Head. These things are basic. They are among the many things which we know of as doctrine and to which we would all subscribe as doctrine, but I think experience shows that it might be helpful to us if we could understand better something of their meaning and their fulness.

I read from two pairs of scriptures. In the first in each case the bearing of Lord and of Head is individual; in the second the bearing is collective, not exactly collective in relation to the Lord but universal - that would be a better word - in relation to Lord and collective in relation to Head. Therefore these designations of Christ affect us both individually and in a wider way. The scripture in Romans 10 is well known, it lies at the foundation of the teaching of the gospel - the confession of Jesus as Lord. The Lord might help us to explore what that means, but one thing it implies is a surrender of everything that I am to what He is. It is something difficult for us to accept in practice but which is fundamental to the experience of the blessings of the gospel. We can relate these titles to other things - to the world to come and to the kingdom - but their immediate bearing is personal in our present circumstances. Peter says to Cornelius "he is Lord of all things"; there is nothing that is outside the lordship of Christ. The footnote says, 'of all', and it might be Jew and Gentile: that would be true. But He is Lord of all things. The wide range of the title of Christ as Lord might come before us.

But He is also Head. He is head of every man. I think it would be helpful for us to explore, as the Spirit might help us, what that means. We know from 1 Corinthians 11 that there is this chain of headship coming down from God to Christ to man to woman; but the head of every man is the Christ. Then He is Head of the church, He is Head of the body. It might be remarked also that in these scriptures He is these things. In other scriptures He is either made them or given to be them - that is to say in the beginning of Acts God has made this Jesus Lord (see chap 2: 36), in Ephesians 1 He is given to be Head over all things to the church which is His body (see chap 1: 22). There is a distinction to be understood between what He is inherently and what He is made. There may in their working out prove not to be very much distinction between them but it is one thing to understand what Christ is inherently and that He has been given positions which correspond to what He is inherently. These thoughts may bear a good deal on administrative ideas - they are administrative titles in a way - and they might help us because one thing I think we probably need help about is relating ourselves more to Christ than to any other influence. These things are well known among the brethren; therefore there might be more opportunity for profit in speaking about them.

L.McF. A very profitable line you have brought up! I thought of Saul of Tarsus; his first question was, "Who art thou, Lord?", Acts 9: 5. He came to recognise that there was One who had authority.

E.C.B. Yes. The effect of the light above the brightness of the sun is to obliterate everything else. If you look at the sun and then look away from it you cannot see anything else for a moment, but I think that light led him to apprehend that the One he was speaking to was the Lord. It is interesting that the reply to him is not, I am the Lord, but, I am Jesus, and the graciousness of that does not in any way set aside the reality of what He is as Lord. You might say that that is a good point for everybody to start their Christian history with - Jesus as Lord.

L.McF. That is fine! I thought that should be a lesson for us all to begin there. He was subdued and was conscious of the Lord's love for him in a personal way.

E.C.B. Yes; and then Ananias says to him, the Lord that appeared to thee in the way (see Acts 9: 17), as if that was the simplest form of acknowledgment among believers; He is Lord to me and He is Lord to you, and if I speak of the Lord you know who I am talking about. But is it actually in expression that I recognise the place that He has as dominant over everything? I feel some need of help among us generally to understand our relations with Christ in the positions which He has so that we may be preserved from leaning to our own understanding. I think our administration would be very improved if we excluded our own thoughts and recognised that the Lord and the Head must determine everything.

C.F.D. So is confessing Jesus as Lord intended to be something initial in our lives as the result of the preaching of the glad tidings, which this epistle emphasises so much? Is it something that we should quickly come to understand, that there must be a regulating power in my life in every department as long as I am here?

E.C.B. I think that. You will notice that Romans 10 does not speak directly about the forgiveness of sins. In fact the forgiveness of sins is not the characteristic matter in the epistle to the Romans; it is justification. Forgiveness is mentioned once - "Blessed they whose lawlessnesses have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered" (chap 4: 7) - but that is a quotation from the Old Testament. The characteristic of Romans is that sins and sin have been dealt with, and all that is clear. I come to this, that Jesus is Lord. It is important for us to arrive at this early rather than concentrating on the forgiveness of our sins, because in that we are looking at our benefit, but if we are looking at the fact that Jesus is Lord we acknowledge that we have come under other dominion. "Other lords than thee have had dominion over us; by thee only will we make mention of thy name", Isa 26: 13. That is the position in the tenth of Romans.

J.R.C. So that becomes a matter of confession. I think what you have said is helpful, that we usually think of that as a person being able to say, Jesus is my Lord, but it is a marvellous thing that we should all be able to confess that He is Lord.

E.C.B. That is right. Do you not think that confession has more in it than just the words I use? One hears brethren say, I met another man and asked him if he was a believer, and I said to him, I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That does not particularly identify you because it is in the apostle's creed - 'and in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord'. The church is saying it every day and therefore I have to get beyond the words to the actuality of it in myself. Do you not think that?

J.R.C. I am sure that is right. Confession really comes into our way of life.

E.C.B. It does. Thereby you would find that believers are not saying, We do not do this and we do not do that - believers naturally behave in a certain way because they are under the regulation of Christ as Lord.

K.N.P. What affected the people when Peter first preached was that he said that God has made Him both Lord and Christ. It was immediately after having heard that that they were pricked in heart. There was something there that was contrary to what they thought themselves.

E.C.B. Exactly. In that scripture it seems to be that what affected them was, if God has done this with this Man, then have I not to come to God's view of Him - God has made Him Lord and Christ. Immediately they were pricked in heart and they said, What shall we do? He says, Repent, think again, take another view of things, recognise that the Man that you have crucified is now in this position of dominance over everything. I think we perhaps need to get into ourselves some of the simpler aspects of the truth. We know a great deal and we can quote ministry but what we need is to get into our souls the reality that Christ is Lord; 'Christ is Lord of glory, sing we now today' (Hymn 175). Now is that true of us?

L.McF. So would this confession be the result of having the Spirit and coming under the promptings of the Spirit, - ''with thy mouth"?

E.C.B. I think that is a good thing to bring forward. The confession of Jesus as Lord is a consequence of having the Spirit. We often say that a person does not 'automatically' receive the Spirit on faith in Christ. Leaving aside whether 'automatically' is a good word in that context, surely as soon as a person believes in Christ God gives him the Spirit; otherwise they are left at their own devices for a while. Now what does the Spirit do? He establishes the place of Christ as Lord in my soul, and there is something established which I will confess, not only with the mouth, but in my behaviour. I think what was said is important, that this is the consequence of having the Spirit. Have you more to say?

J.R.C. No. It is not exactly the scripture, but it would lead into what is collective; it is the area where the Spirit predominates, where Christ's glory is known.

E.C.B. That is right. I am not sure that the title of 'Lord' is known collectively. What would you say about that?

J.R.C. In other words that is a singular mark of what a believer should be, the acknowledgment of Christ as Lord.

E.C.B. That is right. But if every one in the company is acknowledging Him as Lord you have very wide ground for the activity of the Spirit. Sometimes Psalm 45 is quoted, "he is thy Lord, and worship thou him" (v 11), in relation to worshipping Him as Lord as if it could apply to the assembly. I do not think that is quite right. I think that Psalm 45 belongs peculiarly to Israel, but the reality of Christ as Lord, Jesus as Lord, is that it is true for every person in the company. One effect of that is that it subdues everything that is not of Him and thus it leaves room for the Spirit because everyone there is subdued. What I fear very much - and I am as susceptible to it as everybody is - is that my own understanding of things leads me to activities and to influence which is not the influence of Christ as Lord. Is that fair to say?

J.R.C. I am sure it is.

J.A.P. The apostle uses that title in 1 Corinthians 11 more than once, "I received from the Lord". However I am not clear about why that would not be enjoyed collectively.

E.C.B. I do not think He is exactly Lord to a corporate entity. I think He is Lord to everybody in it, or should be. Hence the scripture in Acts 10 says, "he is Lord of all things", that is, you take them one by one and He is Lord of all things. I am not sure that His lordship applies to a collective entity - His headship certainly does.

C.F.D. Has it rightly been said that He is Lord to the individual and Head to the assembly?

E.C.B. I think that is true. And if you have a company, like this company today, in which He is Lord to everybody the ground is cleared for His headship.

A.S.H. Would what came in in John 9 enter into what we are saying? The man said, "And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he" (vv 36, 37). Is it a matter that I have Him and know Him for myself?

E.C.B. That is right. Nobody else can know Him as Lord for you, you must know Him as Lord for yourself. The acknowledgment of Him as Lord leads in John 9 to the apprehension of the Son of God, but you start with the fact that you will come under His control, you might even say His domination. Now what does He open out as Lord? John 4 starts: "When the Lord knew", and then in that chapter you have the Saviour of the world, the worship of the Father, the worship of God, and a woman cleared of her history; but the chapter starts with, When the Lord knew. It shows, I think, the great advantage there is from acknowledging His place as Lord.

C.F.D. Where does the title Lord and His position of Lord fit into the kingdom?

E.C.B. These things are very close. I think that in Israel the king was both lord and head. If you take David, he was lord, everything moved at David's disposition; David said, Do this, it was done; if David said, Do not do that it was not done. But as head he had an influence over the whole nation, "all Israel knew", it says in relation to David, that his headship was working. Headship is more worked out in Solomon than in David because Solomon begins his kingship with wisdom; that is what headship provides as a resource. Is that all right?

C.F.D. What you are saying is helpful. It seems to me that the recognition and the enjoyment of the lordship of Christ prepares me for something further, and you work into that 'something further' in this epistle, because you come to the kingdom and the description of it in chapter 14 and then you just touch at the end the idea of what is collective in the assembly.

E.C.B. As you know, the idea of the assembly is not developed in this epistle but it is arrived at. You will recall that in regard to chapter 12, where there is the reference to one body (see v 4), Mr Raven says that the early part of the epistle lays a sufficient doctrinal basis for the one body. Therefore in this epistle you get groundwork laid. If we speak of the kingdom and the lordship of Christ we must keep in mind - and there has been time in our history when we have strayed from it - that the lordship of Christ and the kingdom are for our benefit. The kingdom is for man's benefit; and the lordship of Christ is for man's benefit. You come under Him and acknowledge Him and He will never fail to provide everything for your good.

G.A. How would Peter fit in in John 6? He said to the Lord ''to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal" (v 68). Did he realise the headship of the Lord at that time?

E.C.B. I think what was affecting Peter then was the blessedness of what was coming out of Christ as Lord. Eternal life will be displayed on the earth in the world to come. Eternal life in Psalm 133 is not as great as what we have, but eternal life will be on the earth in the world to come under Christ as Lord, under Christ as Head too. But Peter says, ''thou hast words of life eternal"; I found You as Lord and in You I have every resource that I shall need. You will satisfy me for ever, I am not going anywhere else, words of eternal life will keep me.

L.D.P. I was wondering about the man on the cross: "Remember me, Lord, when thou comest in thy kingdom", Luke 23: 42. Would that fit in with your thought - he accepted Him as Lord, accepted His authority and recognised the benefit of the kingdom.

E.C.B. That is right. I think that man, to be a bit exact, was more in the light of Israel's benefit than of a Christian's benefit. He was a malefactor and I would think a Jewish malefactor, and he was looking forward to the Lord coming in His kingdom when everything would be established in order. He would fit in to Peter's first preaching in the Acts, He will send Jesus Christ and you will get showers of blessing. But that is not to say that there was not a man there who was acknowledging the place of Christ as Lord and recognised that his only benefits would come that way.

J.R.C. Confession obviously involves the mouth, leading into our lives, the way we live. It goes on here to speak about the heart, ''with the heart", it says, "is believed to righteousness; and with the mouth confession made to salvation". Our hearts come into this matter.

E.C.B. They do. There is reference to the heart in the beginning of the Acts but "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks", Matt 12: 34, connects the two thoughts and with what you were saying before. In my heart I believe that God has raised Him from the dead, with my mouth I confess Him as Lord.

J.R.C. I think in these days it is fine to be able to stimulate one another in our affections for Christ.

E.C.B. We are longing to do it. Do you not long to do it?

J.R.C. Yes. It is on us to do it, is it not?

E.C.B. It is on us to do it. It is much more important for the brethren to have Christ than to have readings on administration. The greatest thing for the brethren - but for all believers - is the promotion of Christ in their hearts. That enters into these scriptures that He is Lord. Paul teaches the Romans that the thing to do is to confess Him as Lord. In chapter 10 of the Acts I thought of what Peter says, "And Peter opening his mouth said, Of a truth ... Jesus Christ, he is Lord of all things". There is nothing outside His lordship. Surely this is to have an effect on us as well. We may not see it but He is Lord over every incident that occurs, and that helps us in accepting things from Him so that we will work them out conscious that as Lord He will bring them to His conclusion.

J.A.P. We need encouragement from these passages as to the wideness of the bearing of the glad tidings; He is rich towards all. Then Peter himself had to come to the bearing of the greatness of the Lord in relation to men generally. Would that enter into your thought?

E.C.B. Exactly. "He is Lord of all things": you can view every man in that light, and therefore you can preach the gospel to him, the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, because you bring home to people that He is Lord, and being Lord of all things He can be Lord to them and they will get the benefit of it. I think sometimes we have a rather closing up approach to scripture instead of seeing that the Scriptures are intended to open us out in relation to the breadth of what is involved in the One to whom we are attached.

C.S.E. Would His work on the cross for me, all that He went through on my account, endear Him to me in a very special way so that He becomes my Lord?

E.C.B. I am sure of that. But in the scripture in Romans and here, He is not exactly Lord because He died for you; He is Lord because that is the way God views Him and that is how you are to view Him and I am to view Him. But let us, as you imply, never lose the preciousness of the work He has done for us. Do you not think we could be stimulated in that too? When we come to a meeting, we talk about 'the brethren': suppose we referred to them as fellow believers, they would have a slightly different colour in our minds because when we talk about the brethren it is very easy to get a slightly sectarian colour. But we are here as fellow believers, persons for whom Christ died, persons who love the Lord. All this should be in our minds as we are together: we are here in simplicity but because we are we can have the greatest things.

J.A.P. So Peter says here, "I myself also am a man" (v 26). We have had to learn that it is not brethrenism.

E.C. B. Exactly. Peter learned a great lesson from this sheet. I have been impressed recently with how flexible this sheet must have been, what it could contain, all these different awkwardnesses together. Could the lion lie down with the lamb in the sheet? Evidently they did. I have an impression of what the assembly is able to contain. You do not have to rear up and take issue with everything; there is grace in which things can be contained. Not that you are going to go on with evil but if we are going to rise up in administration at every susceptibility of one another, in a little while we shall all walk alone. We have to bear and we have to forbear.

L.McF. So Peter says, "how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power; who went through all quarters doing good ... because God was with him". I was thinking of the anointing and the uniqueness seen in Jesus.

E.C.B. That is right. It bears on what Mr Elliott said; nobody has done for us what Jesus did nobody has the place in God's mind that Jesus has. Let us arrive at that. It is interesting to refer to the earlier part of this chapter: "Rise, Peter slay and eat". And what does he say? "In no wise Lord". Now what happens? Is there a care meeting about his saying that, contradicting God? O no - "What God has cleansed, do not thou make common". The grace of the Christian day shines out there. He says, In no wise, Lord, I can never do that, what You are telling me to do. God says What God has cleansed do not you call common'. Grace is inseparable from the title of lordship.

L.McF. I think it says it three times, so that there would be patience with Peter, do you think?

E.C.B. I do think that.

J.A.P. Cornelius likewise in verse 4 says, "What is it, Lord?” So these two brothers were subject to the Lord and they arrived at the Lord's end - Cornelius and Peter, both.

E.C.B. They did; they arrived at it together and they helped one another. Peter could see in Cornelius a man in whom God worked and Cornelius could see in Peter a man in whom God worked, and there they have something in common: they both know Jesus as Lord, or you might literally say in regard to Cornelius that he knew God as Lord. But things are established: here He is Lord of all things. That expression is brought in not in order to make Cornelius cower under a dominant authority; it is brought in to encourage him. Peter says, He is Lord of all things, He will look after you, Cornelius. And as Mr McFarlane says, the One we are talking about went about doing good. That is the Lord of all things, He went about doing good.

D.McF. Stephen says, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge", Acts 7: 60. He had a real sense, do you think, of the Lord?

E.C.B. He did. He knew the Lord's spirit. He does not say, Take vengeance on them. Stephen was immersed in the Old Testament but he does not quote the vengeance psalms when they are stoning him to death; he says, "Lay not this sin to their charge".

C.S.E. So the Lord's supper is another rallying point or unifying point. We are gathered together to the Lord to remember Him. That means He is absolutely and totally before my soul; that is the way in which we should take the Supper.

E.C.B. Yes. What you say is right, that He should be before my soul, because we come to the Supper as individuals, do we not? The one loaf is there and it immediately speaks to us about the one body, but we came as individuals for the Lord's supper; Lord to me, Lord to you, Lord to that sister and Lord to some children. (Some children are very simple about the lordship of Christ; they could not put it in doctrine but they are very simple about it). We come as individuals and we are led into collective experience and out of collective experience we are led into individual experience again.

C.S.E. Also, "He is Lord of all things" helps me in the prayer meeting and individually in my link with the Lord. If I consciously know that He is Lord of all things, that is really going to help me.

E.C.B. I think it is very good to say that. So that He is Lord of all things; in the prayer meeting you pray about the brethren, about the testimony, about other believers, about Yugoslavia - He is Lord of all things and He can bring in conclusions according to Himself just at a time that suits Him.

L.D.P. You mentioned what Peter said, that he would not eat anything, and I thought of Hebrews where it says, "let us consider one another for provoking to love and good works", chap 10: 24. I think we need to be encouraged as to this idea of provoking - provoking one another to love and good works. It is not a matter of rebuke; the Lord did not rebuke Peter but He encouraged him.

E.C.B. I think that is right. These things should help us. The smallness of numbers available to us should lead us much more to consideration for one another. We are not sparring with one another or trying to get the edge over somebody; we are together and taking full account of what God has in another brother or sister and it helps us. Now how are you going to provoke one another to good works? By showing the effect in yourself of what those good works are.

I thought about Christ as head of every man. It says, "I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man". It is clear from what succeeds - a woman's head is the man - that Christ is, in this scripture indirectly, the Head of every woman - He is the Head of every man and the woman's head is the man. I say that to show that we are not talking about men getting the benefit of this. But if Christ is my Head what effect does that have on me? We may say He is Lord, and we do say and have been saying that, He is Lord and He maintains His authority and all that He has Himself. Now what if He is my Head? What does my head do to my body? Mysteriously it works, and I cannot tell my head what to do but my head tells my body what to do. That is the position of Christ in relation to men as Head, that influentially He affects everything that they do. I venture to say this is very little known, the headship of Christ both individually and collectively not as well known in experience as it is in doctrine. What does it mean, Christ is my Head? What do you think?

L.McF. I think I would need some help as to that myself.

E.C.B. I expect everybody would say that if I asked them what they thought. What does it mean, Christ is my Head? It must imply that I have a direct connection with Him. Mr Darby says in his writings, that if anything as thin and valuable as gold leaf comes between the head and the body the body is dead. Therefore one thing we must learn if we want to know about the headship of Christ is a direct connection with Him; I am living on ac count of Him as He lived on account of the Father.

C.F.D. So that this influence that the Lord has is affecting me in the way that I think, the way that I speak, the way that I walk. It is not just under command or under authority but it is now under an influence because we have become something like Christ Himself.

E.C.B. You become - and this may sound rather high language - but you become the expression of what Christ would do in the circumstances in which you are.

C.F.D. Is that one of the objectives in the preaching of the word of God, the glad tidings, that it is intended to reproduce a person here in testimony who is like Christ in glory? Is that the idea of headship?

E.C.B. That would certainly be a consequence of it. I have said before that if the Father does not have on earth what corresponds to Christ He has lost something as regards the earth by having Him in heaven, because there is no Christ here except the Christ that is in those who have been secured for Him and given to Him by the Father. You could once have found Him on earth but you cannot now, Christ is in heaven. But does the Father have Christ on the earth? What do you think?

C.F.D. I do think so, because there are persons who, as you view them and listen and watch them, are Christ-like. And that must be the product of the gospel and the product of the work of the Spirit of God in the believer, because it seems to me the Spirit of God is working to the end that Christ is reproduced in the place testimonially of what Christ was when He was here.

E.C.B. Certainly. Was that not Paul's own exercise? He toiled, he laboured "until Christ shall have been formed in you", Gal 4: 19. Paul could not bring that about, a servant of the Lord cannot bring that about, what he can bring in is light, but the formation is the consequence of the working of the Holy Spirit.

C.F.D. Does what Paul says as to himself link with that, "for me to live is Christ", Phil 1: 21? Is that what he appreciated and what he enjoyed in his own link with the Lord?

E.C.B. Yes, but I think the scripture in John's gospel bears on it too, "I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me", chap 6: 57. There is a person, an individual - "he" - under the headship of Christ. Do you think that?

C.F.D. Yes.

J.A.P. In 1 Corinthians 11 it says, "I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man". Is that to redeem man or how do you look at that?

E.C.B. It is universal. Christ is the Head of every man is universal, it is creational. He is the Head of every man, no man is outside the headship of Christ. The fact is that people do not acknowledge it and the preaching of the gospel is intended to bring people into the acknowledgment of it. Is that right?

J.A.P. Yes. "I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God". You are saying that that is a general matter that God has ordained. Then the next thing is whether through the gospel I am in the good of it, which I think we are coming into a little bit.

E.C.B. That is the question, whether you are in the good of it. We gather together for meetings like this with the broad assumption that everybody there is in the gain of the gospel, but are we all getting the gain of what the gospel has brought us into? What is it that Christ is my Head? I fear sometimes that even the knowledge of ministry can get in the way of my knowing the headship of Christ. I do not in any way speak lightly of ministry, but if every time something comes up I have a book reference in my mind I am not necessarily directly in the headship of Christ.

J.R.C. Earlier in the epistle Paul says, "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2: 16) and he wanted to see that operating at Corinth. Is that correct?

E.C.B. That is correct.

J.R.C. Therefore if Christ is the Head of every man, that is the way through to how we get the mind of Christ in any matter. Is that right?

E.C.B. That is right. We might have to ask ourselves why it is that we are not more in the gain of that. Why is it that we are not always experiencing that? The reason is that we lean to our own understanding. It is interesting that God asked Solomon what he wanted, and he said, Give me wisdom. When you get to the Proverbs he says, "lean not unto thine own intelligence", chap 3: 5. I think he had found the superiority of the wisdom that comes from God, and that is ministered to us through the headship of Christ.

J.R.C. Therefore that in its very self would be the essence of unity.

E.C.B. That is right. He is Head of every man and He is Head of the body, that is to say He is not only Head of individuals but He is Head of something collective or corporate. That is a distinct thought from His lordship, because His lordship remains individual.

J.A.P. You might open up about the woman in Mark 14: she anointed His head, and when the Lord makes His comment about it He says, "She has beforehand anointed my body" (v 8). That was to be spoken of in the glad tidings.

E.C.B. That is an interesting connection because, as you say, she anointed His head and He spoke about His body, "anointed my body for the burial". In Colossians it says, "He is the head of the body", chap 1: 18. The position of Christ in Colossians is greater than that in Ephesians. We tend to think Ephesians is the supreme truth; the supreme truth about Christ is in Colossians. There is no greater description of the greatness of the person of Christ than there is in Colossians. We need to understand that. I say this because in Colossians He is Head of the body, in Ephesians He is given to be Head of the body, and those two thoughts are clearly distinguishable.

C.F.D. Here according to His moral greatness; in Ephesians it is more according to the purpose of God. But this is the moral greatness of the Person shining.

E.C.B. That is true. Now what do you mean by moral greatness?

C.F.D. All that He is in Himself. Not what has been given to Him, not what has been bestowed upon Him, not what He comes into because of the purpose of God, but the absolute moral superiority of all that Christ is is shining out in Colossians.

E.C.B. That is what I think. And who can speak with any power about this description of Christ in the first and second chapters of Colossians? We distinguish about the fulness that was in Him and the fulness that is in Him, but we are touching the brink of things that are far more excellent than we can really get into. We are thankful for everything we have about them, but the glory of Christ in Colossians is immense. It is interesting to follow through things, for instance in John's gospel that Jesus is doing Himself. He says, "I leave the world", John 16: 28. He has not been told to do that, He says, "I leave the world and go to the Father". "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?", John 6: 62. He is there in what you could speak of, as you do, as His moral greatness, but there is the knowledge that in Himself He can do things, speaking carefully, without reference to anybody else. He says, "I leave the world and go to the Father". "The bread which I give you," He says, without reference to anybody. It is the distinctive authority of Christ in the position into which He has come as Man. This place, He is Head of the body, is as Man, is it not? Now, if He is Head of the body - it says, "He is the head of the body, the assembly" - how should assembly administration proceed? It should proceed from the One who is Head of the body. There is no room for opinions where Christ is Head, and it is better to wait on the Lord than to argue.

A.S.H. The scripture in Colossians is: "And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him. And he is the head of the body, the assembly; who is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that he might have the first place in all things". The first place is His.

E.C.B. That is right. He takes up this place of Himself in order that He might regulate everything. What is the antecedent description of Christ in this paragraph? It is the Son of the Father's love. Does that not make it precious? The Man who has this position is the Son of the Father's love. He is not referred to as Jesus, the Christ, the Lord or any other title, but He is the Son of the Father's love and you know who is being spoken about. Is that right?

C.F.D. Yes, it is very beautiful. Maybe you would open that up a little, ''translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love", Col 1: 13.

E.C.B. That is the mount of transfiguration, is it not? The disciples went up to see the kingdom and they saw Jesus transfigured before them and a voice out of heaven said, This is my beloved Son. There were three men in the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love and the glory of it was too great for them. It is not too great now because the Spirit connects us with this world where the Christ is. These things are very, very beautiful. The kingdom of the Son of the Father's love was to be seen on the mount of transfiguration. Peter spoke about it in his epistle - such a voice, he says, from the excellent glory. You say, Peter, a kingdom epistle. Yes, a kingdom epistle, but it is the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love.

J.R.C. It says there, "They saw no one but Jesus alone", that is Christ in His pre-eminence as it should be.

E.C.B. Yes. In Mark it says "with themselves", chap 9: 8. There they were, He and they together in that kingdom. You are going up this mountain to see the kingdom; they would see the kingdom, see the kingdom of God come in power. Now what do they expect to see? Is it at this time Thou restorest the kingdom to Israel? O, no; they heard a voice saying "This is my beloved Son: hear him". And that is the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love. Out of the world, up there on the mountain and Jesus and they together, and He taking them up in the simplicity of their own condition, but they with Him. How blessed it was!

K.N.P. I was thinking about the head in relation to that. Everything flowing down from there, as you said earlier, was not done by commandment, it is done instinctively, is it not? Is there a link there with what we said earlier about the lordship of Christ?

E.C.B. I do not know what you think, but I think you have to know Christ as Lord before you can know Him as Head. Would you think that?

K.N.P. That is what I was wondering, because the natural body shows us that there is an instinctive reaction just to carry out what the head is desirous of. I was thinking about David earlier, when he longed for something, the men knew that he longed. He did not say anything but there was that influence that you spoke about. I wondered if that linked with what you were saying.

E.C.B. I think that is right. David longed, and said, "Oh that one would give me to drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem", 2 Sam 12: 15. Three men broke through. and they brought it for him. It was the power of the influence of what David was. As you say, he never asked them but they knew what he wanted. What a difference it would make to our meetings if we could touch that more. I am not saying we do not touch it but if in the character of the meeting we could touch it more that He is the Head of body, the assembly. These things are not in the scripture just to be objective, they are there for us to understand; but they are there in order to help us through difficult times in which we live. I do not think anybody would deny that assembly administration would be much better carried on if the lordship and headship of Christ were the first things to be acknowledged.

J.A.P. Colossians 2 would show that: "not holding fast the head" (v 19). It gets away from us, pardon me for putting it that way.

E.C.B. We get away from Him I think would be more correct. A separation comes in and the separation is usually that my opinion or someone else's opinion comes between the experience of Christ as Head.

L.D.P. I was wondering about the woman of worth, she recognised her husband in this sense: "The heart of her husband confideth in her, and he shall have no lack of spoil", Prov 31: 11.

E.C.B. Exactly. He was away and everything at home went on as if he was there. That is headship in practice. I am not putting this down to everyday experience in our own households, although how much more blessed even they would be with more knowledge of the headship of Christ. It has been in my mind a bit recently, that apart from the sorrows of 1970 and 1972, virtually all the divisions among the brethren have been on account of administration. And that is a very sobering thing to think of. If Christ were Head I think the body would be more in expression.

C.S.E. There is one scripture that has had a very sobering effect on me for a long time; it is whatever you have done on earth is ratified in heaven. It has always affected me in our assembly administration, or whatever we do, do we have the sense that heaven would ratify that action?

E.C.B. It is very sobering. Do you think we could say that every time?

C.S.E. No.

E.C.B. But we ought to be able to. The headship of Christ is a very subtle thing and it works when room is made for Christ as Lord. Meetings are better when we come together in a subdued state whatever we have to take up, and then the headship of Christ will lead. It does not need much to be said, but it will be that He is the Head of His body, the assembly. What a remarkable thing it is, He is there glorified and we are here, in the conditions in which we are He is there, but He is Head of the body and the connection is in the Spirit.

J.R.C. We might argue, we have known the kind of thing of which you spoke a little time ago, wherefore it is better to wait. We will never settle a meeting in an argument and at that point we are really not getting the gain of the Lord's headship. So it is better not to say any more. Would that be right?

E.C.B. You are better to go home. It requires a man with power to say that: Brethren, we better go home. It will come up again, but it will come up again in a different climate and the headship of Christ be known and the brethren glad of it. I think the brethren know when it has happened that Christ as Head was known among His people.

 

29 May 1993

Key to initials

(New York unless otherwise stated)

G.Ashby; E.C.Burr, London; J.R.Cumming, Edinburgh; C.F.Dadd, Plainfield; C.S.Elliott; A.S.Hinkson; D.McFarlane; L.McFarlane; J.A.Petersen, Plainfield; K.N.Pye; L.D.Phillips