THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY EXPRESSED
A.J.G. In proposing this passage in Exodus 25, one has no desire to engage the brethren with a great deal of detail, but rather that we might get some definite thoughts as to the assembly in its local expression in the various places where God has set us. The first thing being that each of us is called upon to provide the conditions that are acceptable to God for His dwelling amongst us. I think it would greatly elevate our outlook on our occasions of coming together, and indeed on the assembly, whether convened or not, if we understood that God has expressed His desire to dwell amongst His people, and that while He Himself will prescribe with great detail what conditions He looks for, it is for us to provide them. He goes into great detail in this chapter and the succeeding ones, and says to Moses that He is to see that He makes everything according to the pattern; but everything that was made was dependent on what the people brought. And
that is the first thing that one has in mind, and then to dwell a little on the ark of the centre of the system, and God speaking in relation to it. But I think it would help us to get this clearly in mind, that the extent to which God finds conditions that are pleasing to Himself and
suited to His dwelling depends on ourselves as to what we bring. I suppose what we bring is ourselves, but ourselves marked by certain features that have taken character from our knowledge of God, or our appreciation of Christ, or our apprehension of the Spirit, or our appreciation of the saints according to what God has made them. All this, I believe, enters into this matter of what we bring. God is looking to us to bring these things that are needful, so that His dwelling place should take concrete form amongst us in a way that is pleasing to Himself.
Then chapter 33 will show us the lines on which divine thoughts can be realised in days such as the present when there is general departure from the truth. The divine thought is not to be given up but it is to be secured, but secured on a moral basis of complete separation in an absolute sense from all that is unsuited to God; so that when Moses took a tent, the tent it is called, a tent, he pitched it outside the camp far off from it—not as near to it as possible, but far off from it. Showing that separation from all that is unsuited to God and idolatrous in character is to be absolute if God’s thoughts and pleasure are to be realised.
Ques. Do you think that the affections come into this matter; like David? He says, “in
my affection” I have prepared for the house of my God, 1 Chron 29: 3.
A.J.G. Well, they certainly do. It is everyone whose heart prompts it. He shall “take my heave offering”. The idea of a heave offering is the heart rising up in responsive affection to the God who has redeemed us to Himself. I think we might do well, each of us, to give a little more place in our thoughts to the great fact of redemption and how it has been accomplished. It is striking how the apostles emphasise the personal claims of the Lord over us. Peter says, “himself for our sins in his body on the tree” (1 Pet 2: 24), making it a personal matter between the Lord and each one of us. And John says that “he has washed us from our sins in his blood”, Rev 1: 5. That is, we are never again to be marked by lawlessness. But He has made of the kingdom preached to his God and Father. I believe we do well, each brother and sister, whether old or young, to give increasing place in our minds to the fact that we have been redeemed personally by the Lord, at infinite cost to himself, that we might be secured for the pleasure of God now.
Ques. Does the apostle refer to that in 1 Corinthians 6: 11 when he goes over certain things and he says, “such were some of you, but
ye have been washed”. Did he have that in mind?
A.J.G. He did: “ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus”—that brings in the testimony to what He has done in His death – “and by the Spirit of our God”, that is the subjective power that makes it real in us.
Ques. inaudible
A.J.G. Yes, that is right, and it is a striking thing that one year after they came out of Egypt, a year during which they proved the grace of God giving the manna and giving the water from the smitten rock and so on, God then proposed this to them, that they should make Him a sanctuary. And then from that time onwards, the sanctuary of God, which for us is the assembly, became their commanding interest and the centre of all their movements.
Ques. Would it be right to say that Israel’s collective history began with what we speak of in the Passover lamb? And it is not without significance that when the Lord was on earth near the end of his pathway, the idea of the Passover was emphasised, would you say?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. It is the beginning of months. “This month shall be unto you the beginning of months”, Exod 12: 2. So it is the
beginning of our moral exercises, the Passover lamb, the judgment of sin in the person of Christ on our behalf and the claim over our affections that that establishes.
Rem. It is never supposed that God would ask the people to bring anything that they could not bring. It is not suggested here that it would be difficult to bring what God asks.
A.J.G. No, exactly, and I think we can see without going into a lot of details and that the gold and the silver and the copper really refer to certain things that we learn in God. And the blue and the purple and the scarlet and the byssus and the goats’ hair and the rams’ skins dyed red and the badgers’ ski’s and the acacia wood, eight things, are things that we apprehend in Christ. The oil for the light, the spices for the anointing oil, and the incense of fragrance drugs would direct our thoughts to the Spirit. And then the onyx stones and stones to be set refer, I believe, to the permanency of God’s work in the saints. So it is a question of how far we have an appreciation of God and of Christ and of the Spirit and of the saints. If we have, it will work out in conditions being found with us that will contribute to God’s dwelling amongst us congenially.
Ques. Is it affecting that Jehovah asks for a habitation, not when they come into the land,
but in the time of their sojourn? There was at this time, I judge, no idea of the wilderness journey being so prolonged, and yet God asks for a habitation in that period immediately following redemption.
A.J.G. Exactly, and in that way, it makes the present time particularly important and valuable that conditions pleasing to God, where He can dwell, can be provided and maintained by the saints in the presence of what is evil and hostile around. Is that what you had in mind?
Rem. Yes, there was much that would mitigate against the habitation, but nevertheless God would have His saints go through with it as overcomers.
A.J.G. Exactly, yes. I think it helps to see that it is contemplated that it is to be a commanding interest, that to which everything else is subservient. In Exodus it is to be provided, in Leviticus, God is to be approached and served in it, and in Numbers it is to be carried in testimony. But from this time onwards, it is to be the commanding interest of God’s people.
Rem. They would all have been fully occupied if so many things had to be brought, would they not?
A.J.G. Yes, indeed. You mean it would not leave them any time for other interests that would be inimical to God’s pleasure?
Rem. Yes, exactly.
Ques. inaudible
A.J.G. Yes it is, and the first thing that is called for is gold, which I believe refers to love. It is what is of God, the divine nature. If we have not love, we have nothing, we are nothing; it is not simply we have nothing, but we are nothing. The first essential in the dwelling place of God is conditions of love, love amongst ourselves. God being love, He cannot possibly dwell happily and restfully in conditions other than conditions of love. And hence we have got to challenge ourselves as to how far we have been formed in love. Because it is ourselves as formed in love that constitute the first ingredient, so to speak, in these dwelling conditions for God.
Rem. It must be put together according to the pattern.
A.J.G. But the first thing is to bring the material. And then we have to be set together according to the divine prescription, but the first thing is to bring the material.
Ques. It would be the result of exercise.
A.J.G. Well, say a little more as to what is in your mind.
Ques. It is what we have in ourselves.
A.J.G. Well, of course, we start with an apprehension of love. It says, “God commends his love to us, in that we being still sinners, Christ died for us”, Rom 5: 8. And “the Holy Spirit sheds the love of God abroad in our hearts”, Rom 5: 5. So that we begin our Christian history with some impression of love, but then we have to increase and abound in it. It says, “Hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us; and we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives”, 1 John 3: 16. God has come out in Christ, and everything that we are to know of God is to be learned in Christ. And therefore we must study Christ if we would be impressed with love. And we have no value at all in the divine system, except in the measure in which we are formed in love.
Ques. Would the divine standard be seen in John 14 and 15, in relation to what the Lord says, in relation to the commandments? He says, “A the new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another, as I have loved you”, John 13: 34. Would that answer to the goal and the divine standard you are referring to?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. But it is a question of laying down our lives. Love is absolutely unselfish and self-sacrificing. A question of laying down our lives. That is how love has come out. Love that is of God has come out in that way. And so when God established a system for his dwelling place, it’s a system that was marked by continual sacrifice. If the children of Israel had answered the divine mind, anyone going near to the tabernacle would have seen constant sacrifice going on all the time. That’s what God loves to see, because it is the expression of the way he has come out in Christ.
Ques. It says, “and this is the heave offering”. Do you think that God in that way is particular in regard to what is at brought? While it is that everyone who is half-prompt of him, does it seem to suggest that there to be no alloy, no open ore as you suggested, lawless or independent element entering into this matter?
A.J.G. Quite so. I think if we keep in our
minds, “that I may dwell among them”, God says; if we would take home the exercise to ourselves and ask what kind of conditions God would look for, it would help us greatly in our outlook on the assembly and in our coming together, and in our relations with one another, because it is as set together that we constitute this dwelling place.
Rem. I thought of another illustration, of this. The way that God is acting, in Romans 8, “He who, yea, has not spared his own Son, but delivered him up for us all”, Rom 8: 32. Do you think that would be enough culture to bring out these offerings?
A.J.G. Yes, it would. I am sure that we get helped by going back sometimes in our minds and going over the foundations of Christianity, the death of Christ, and what its import is, and what has come into expression there; and the way God has approached us in Christ. It does us good to go over these things in our minds sometimes so as to become deepened in things and not merely take things up mentally.
Ques. Has not every fundamental truth to be carried forward. We have an idea, I think, sometimes, that we can leave elementary things behind us because we have touched greater. But if we are not carrying these things with us all the time, there will be breakdown, will there not?
A.J.G. There will. We have to carry the foundations all the time and then build upon it in keeping with it.
Ques. Is it interesting that these things are brought to Moses, and the particular place that Moses seems to have in the formation of this divine system, bringing the heave offering with
that in view. But has Moses a particular place, do you think?
A.J.G. Well, it says Jehovah spoke to Moses, but then it says that “Jehovah spoke to Moses saying, speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me a heed offering of everyone whose heart combs with him, ye shall take my heave offering. That seems to be more than Moses, I is “ye”, it is in the plural, Moses and those who are working with him, I suppose. What had you in mind?
Rem. What I had in mind is how Moses comes in so definitely, “thou shalt make me a table”, for instance it says. Moses seemed to take charge of the different gifts that were brought with a view to the building of the tabernacle system.
A.J.G. Oh, yes. He typifies Christ and all is to be done under the control and direction of the Lord.
Rem. That’s what I had in mind that when we are together and love is prompting us and there are these, the bringings of the saints, it would be under the control of Christ.
A.J.G. Quite so. They are all brought to him in order that they might be set together suitably.
Ques. Would faith go along with love? I was thinking of the intelligence needed to lay hold of the great thoughts of God in this faith system.
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure that is important.
Rem. So that, following what you say and what our brother has said, when Paul is writing to Timothy in his first epistle, he does not hesitate to delineate the mercy and the grace that has come to him from God, “but the grace of our Lord surpassingly overabounded with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 1: 14), would you say?
A.J.G. Yes, indeed.
Rem. There is nothing left for the people to bring from their own imagination as to what would be suitable, is there?
A.J.G. No, nothing at all. And yet there is plenty of variety in what is required, leaving scope for plenty of exercise to be developed as to what is suitable to God and His dwelling place.
Ques. Had they not to work out all these things together in love?
A.J.G. They had. But what a help it would be to us if we could carry this continually in our minds, that we are set together to provide God
with a dwelling place, congenial to Himself, His desires. On one occasion, as we remember, the Lord said to Zacchæus, “come down, for to-day I must remain in thy house”. And Zacchæus, to his credit, came down and received him gladly. But what exercises would be raised with Zacchaeus as the Lord came into his house and dwelt there the whole day? And what education there would be afforded to Zacchæus if he watched the movements of Jesus and the way he did things and so on; how it would have kept him. His house would be entirely changed because he had a new standard, so to speak, brought into it, by which he was to govern himself for the future.
Ques. Would you say a little about the copper and the relation to this? You spoke about the gold as being a love of God, as expressed in the death of Christ, on the ground of redemption. Would the copper begin the thought of self-judgment and all parts, and keep it with us so that there would be those conditions that you speak of, for God to dwell?
A.J.G. Yes, copper always refers, as I understand it, to the judgment of evil. We learn love in that life, that love is not in any sense tolerant of evil, but intolerant of it. And in order that evil might be judged according to God, Christ has given himself for us, and sustained
the judgment. And God executes the judgment upon Him so that both on the part of God and on the part of Christ, infinite sacrifice is entered into the dealing with evil. And we are to view evil in that light as something that has to be judged unsparingly and not allowed for a moment.
Ques. Would 1 Corinthians 3 have a bearing upon this? If “anyone build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones”, 1 Cor 3: 12?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. He says, “for other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ”, v 11. That is that order of manhood. And what was built upon it must be in keeping with it. Hence, we are constantly thrown back upon Christ, to study Christ, to consider Him.
Ques. Would it be right to see the acacia
wood, and the way the Spirit of God records it, that there is special significance in the acacia wood?
A.J.G. Yes, it seems to stand by itself. What do you think of that?
Rem. I am thinking what you’re saying as to the prominence of the order of man, Jesus Christ.
A.J.G. Well, it is very important that, and I know we are speaking of things that in a sense we all know, I suppose, but I am sure we need to give them more place in our minds; to take account of the different kind of man that Jesus was, as He was amongst men. And God has shown His approval of Him by raising Him from among the dead, and leaving every other man in death. And hence we are to consider Jesus Christ; He is the great foundation. He enters into Corinthians, He enters into Ephesians. You will find that Jesus Christ runs right through as the foundation, so to speak, upon which God has built all that He is securing for Himself and for His pleasure in men.
Ques. Is that the reason that there is such a variety in the things which you suggested, these eight things, which refer to Christ, ending with the acacia wood, and is that to encourage us to consider and study Jesus Christ more than perhaps we do?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. We get, for instance, Psalm 16, a delineation of the kind of man that was under God’s eye in Jesus here. And then you find that on the day of Pentecost, Peter quotes the last four verses of that Psalm in full. And then he says, “This Jesus has God raised up”—“This Jesus … having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having
received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this”, Acts 2: 32, 33. That is, the Spirit has come upon the saints to form them in keeping with the man whom God has raised up from among the dead. And nothing else will do for God.
Ques. So you have in mind that all these lovely features which are delineated in these eight things you have spoken of, sin and Christ, should now take shape and character in the saints. So you have in mind that all these lovely features which are delineated in these eight things you have spoken of, seen in Christ, should now take shape and character in the saints.
A.J.G. Well, that’s exactly it. God has made known His pleasure that He should find a dwelling place among men. And we are the men. It is ourselves. And these things are to take form now in a concrete way in Coatbridge and in London, and in every other place where the saints are moving together in the light of the assembly. And hence if we are to rise to divine thought, we must give time to consider these things and see that they are produced.
Ques. Do you think that it is in mind that these things are to be found in a permanent way?? That we would be able to put things in order, to see things in order?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
Ques. Does the apostle in Romans 16 give some of that material which is suitable to God’s habitation?
A.J.G. Yes, he does. You mean all the different brothers and sisters that he mentions by name.
Ques. Is there any significance that these things are acquired through pressure and process?
A.J.G. Well, some of them are. A thing is not of great value unless it costs something to acquire it.
But now the centre of the system, of course, is the ark. And the ark with the testimony inside it and then covered with a mercy seat; and I think we have got to pay attention to that too. The ark of course is typical of Christ, one of the Godhead become man, and having come into manhood, He has the will of God in his heart. In “coming into the world he says, Sacrifice and offering thou willedst not; but thou hast prepared me a body. Thou tookest no pleasure in burnt-offerings and sacrifices for sin”, and so on, “Then I said, Lo, I come (in the roll of the book it is written of me) to do, O God, thy good will”, Heb 10: 5-8. “To do thy good pleasure, my God, is my delight, and thy law is
within my heart”, Ps 40: 8. Now that is the testimony, that God is going to secure man here who wholly delights in God’s will and has no other will. And the centre of the system is the one who became man with that in view, to establish God’s will at all costs and exclude every other will.
Rem. So that in Him there was perfect correspondence between the within and the without, “inside and outside, shalt thou overlay it”. I suppose as yet it is not true of any one of us.
A.J.G No, but it is a good thing to have the centre of the system before our hearts, do you not think?
Rem. I was thinking contemplation brings transformation, does it not?
A.J.G. Yes, indeed.
Ques. Is it striking that the ark never needed to be changed? God begins his people with what is unchangeable and requiring no change.
A.J.G. Exactly.
Rem. Most of the furniture of the tabernacle was unsuited to the temple, but the ark went through in its own distinctive glory.
A.J.G. Quite so. Yes, I am sure that is good.
Ques. In speaking of the gold, we have to
bring gold. But in relation to the making of the ark, the ark should be made of pure gold, within and without. Could you help us with that question?
A.J.G. Well, I suppose it is to draw attention to the personal glory of Christ. He is in manhood. He has come in grace into manhood conditions, and He takes manhood condition eternally. But we are to be impressed with the glory of the one who has become man, and who as man is the centre of the divine system.
Ques. Would the gold have special reference to His ministry and work? The shittim wood would what was there constitutionally in the man.
A.J.G. Well, what have you in mind with regard to ministry and work?
Rem. Well, I was thinking of what comes before us …. [fault on recording]
A.J.G. … It says that man came seeing. So that if He cast out demons, for instance, although he did it by the Spirit of God, He says, “I command thee”, Mark 9: 25. The apostles say, in the name of Jesus Christ, go out, and so on. But the Lord says, “I command thee”.
Ques. So that the half-sizes and the dimensions would have a bearing on that, would it? Mr Taylor used to tell us that it indicated that, in looking at the Lord Jesus, there was infinitely more than the human eye could see there.
A.J.G. Yes, exactly. But I think it is an immense thing to get into our minds the idea that God has introduced in Christ a man wholly devoted to God’s will, and His intention is to fill the universe with men who take character from that. Well now, does that work out in practice in our localities? Are we in fact devoted to God’s will and His pleasure, or do we ever introduce some feature of our own will?
Ques. [There were two things in the ark as well as the tables of testimony.]
A.J.G. No, the testimony is in the ark. I think the testimony is that God secures, in the world where Satan has sway, men who are devoted to His will. That is the idea: “To do thy good pleasure, my God, is my delight”. Now that was presented in testimony in a man, in Jesus. And it is to work out now in the saints. And God loves to dwell in conditions of that kind.
Rem. The second element is that the two things that were put in there during the carrying
period, the suggestion of exercise in keeping with that.
A.J.G. Oh, I think it was. I think Aaron’s rod, of course, was brought in because of the murmuring of the people, but then it shows how grace meets it. So that Aaron’s rod was a very precious thought, and also the manna too. But then they are not here. They are brought in later. The great thing here is the testimony, and that is man secured as devoted to God’s will. The thing here is the testimony, and that is, man secured is devoted to God’s will.
Ques. Does that involve that we are brought into the immediate presence of God; was it not in the holiest?
A.J.G. It was. And that is another thing that I think we should be concerned to know more about, to go into the immediate presence of God; because God has established Himself upon the mercy seat. We want to learn mercy and how God delights in it.
Ques. Would you say something about the cherubim?
A.J.G. The cherubim are always, as I
understand it, symbolical of the assertion and maintenance of God’s right. It is a remarkable thing that when He does assert His rights, it is a right to show mercy. He says, “I will have
mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will show compassion on whom I will show compassion”, Rom 9: 15. When He asserts his right, it is His right to show mercy. But how He must have loved Christ as giving Himself in order that that right might be made good in righteousness.
Rem. The mercy seat and the cherubim were all one.
A.J.G. They were.
Ques. Is it not important to see that “out of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim”?
A.J.G. Well, go on.
Rem. I mean, they are not independently symbolic creatures. It is the rights of God secured in Christ in the same way as that in which He showed his mercy.
A.J.G. Yes, indeed. I think the mercy seat is a very glorious thing to consider; and Christ going to death in order that sin might be dealt with according to God ,so that God might be free to maintain this attitude of mercy that He loves. Now that is to affect us. In Matthew 9, there was a certain one who complained that the Lord was sitting at table with the publicans and sinners. And the Lord says, “go and learn what that meaneth. I will have mercy, not sacrifice”,
Matt 9: 13. Go and learn it, He says, as though we have some time to go and learn things and take on the feature of mercy that God delights in.
Ques. Is that why the blood sprinkled on and before the mercy seat seven times?
A.J.G. Well that would show how God is vindicated and His rights are established, and there is liberty now to draw near. But then the Lord had to say to certain persons, “go and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice”. As though in our relations with one another, we may be getting away from the mercy seat. So He says, go and learn it.
Rem. It is a beautiful suggestion, that the rights of God which are inflexible are connected with wings: “the cherubim shall stretch out their wings over it”.
A.J.G. That is protection, I suppose, is it not?
Rem. Yes, I was thinking of what you have said as to the expression of mercy, that there is loving kindness and goodness and protection connected with the maintenance of the rights of God.
A.J.G. Yes. Well, it is the most affecting
thing. It is not mercy, of course, at the expense of what is right. Christ has died in order that all
that is right might be maintained, so that mercy might prevail. And therefore we are to go and learn it, as though he would say, go into the holiest, and consider God’s rights in mercy, and how they have been established. Let it have its own effect upon your spirit.
Rem. So God says in Hebrews that “I will be merciful to their unrighteousness”.
A.J.G. That is what we just referred to in Matthew 9 and then in Matthew 12 we find that when the disciples went through the cornfields on the sabbath day and plucked the ears of corn, the Pharisees found fault with them; and the Lord said, “if ye had known what is, I will have mercy and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless”. So that the matter of mercy is intended to have a great effect upon our bearing towards one another.
Ques. Is this not the very place where God Himself sits?
A.J.G. Yes, He always is presented as sitting there, and from that point He speaks.
Ques. Does not Romans 12: 8-10 express that, behaviour one towards another? “He that shows mercy, with cheerfulness … be kindly affectioned towards one another, as to honour, each taking the lead in giving it to the other”, and so on.
A.J.G. It does indeed.
Ques. Do you think those are qualities that really proceed from the holiest?
A.J.G. Exactly. And hence the great importance on our part of studying Christ in the holiest, the Person of Christ and what characterises Him as delighting in God’s will, and then devoting Himself to death in order that God’s rights and mercy might be established; and God maintaining His seat there and speaking from there. Now we should go into the holiest and contemplate these things so that we are rightly affected in our spirits, in our relations with one another.
Ques. Do you think that Paul had the mercy seat in view in referring to his dealings with Philemon his brother?
A.J.G. Yes, he had the mercy seat in his mind and heart. So he was bringing it to bear upon Philemon to act in that spirit toward Onesimus.
Ques. Is it not significant that the epistle that presents the highest features of the truth, the apostle in speaking about the saints, I am thinking of Ephesians, and “God, who is rich in mercy”, as if he had the gain of that in his own soul.
A.J.G. Yes, and the highest truths, as you say, in Ephesians, come out that there everything takes character from God. And here, things are to take character from God. He is going to dwell amongst his people.
Ques. Do not you think in that way that part of our difficulty lies in the fact that we enjoy mercy as an objective matter, and the results and blessings it brings to us, but then demands may be made upon us to act in that setting towards others, brethren, for instance, would you say?
A.J.G. Yes, but is it not a happy thing? Think of the year of jubilee, the jubilation connected with the spirit of release, the jubilation of it.
Rem. Just so.
A.J.G. That really flows from getting some sense of how God delights in it, and establishes His seat on the mercy seat.
Ques. Would you say it is the tenor and character of all God’s communications at the present time: “There will I speak with each of you”?
A.J.G. Yes, that is another feature, of course, in the divine dwelling, is that there is constant speaking from God. That is another thing, that we are to have an ear attentive to what God is
saying, and we are to regulate ourselves by what He says; and therefore the dwelling place of God is characterised by constant freshness, because it is affected by constant speaking on God’s part. Mr Taylor has said years ago that it is more important that the Lord should speak to us than that we should speak to Him; not that he was in any way decrying our speaking to the Lord or to God, of course. But the more important thing is that God should speak to us, and that we should be regulated by what He says.
Ques. Is that the meaning of what, uh, occurred at the end of Numbers 7. It says that Moses went in to speak with Him. Then he heard a voice speaking to him from off the mercy seat.
A.J.G. Yes, and then Moses spoke. That is
very interesting, that Moses goes in to speak with Him, but God intercepts him and speaks first, and then Moses speaks. Well now Moses speaking then would be regulated by what God has just said to him. There is no doubt about that. And hence, if I refuse the light for the moment, if I refuse what the Spirit of God is stressing among the saints, then my part in the assembly will be out of place, so to speak. God intends that we should take on whatever He
says, and then our speaking is to be regulated by it.
Ques. Is it not remarkable that the first indication of an assembly spoken of in the Acts of Antioch?
A.J.G. They were first called Christians there., showing that they had taken on the character of the man, the man Jesus Christ, and then in that position there is divine speaking.
Rem. So the Spirit says, “separate me now, Barnabas, and Saul”.
A.J.G. Yes, well, that only confirms what we’re saying, that there are first the conditions that are secured locally that are leading to God’s habitation, and then you get God’s speaking; living conditions resulting from God’s voice being heard.
Ques. Is it not important that preceding the fact of speaking is, there is “I will meet with thee. There will I meet with thee and speak with thee”?
A.J.G. Well, go on: what is in your mind?
Rem. I was only thinking of the divine
presence there and preceding speaking, so we should be very conscious of the presence of God.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so; so the tent becomes called the tent of meeting. That is where God meets with his people and they meet with Him. One is only concerned for oneself and us all that we should have more living and elevated thoughts as to the assembly and our coming together. So we do not simply say, well, we are coming to the meeting. It is a good thing to come, of course, not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. But if we could have carry in our minds a little more that God was dwelling amongst us and wants conditions suitable to His dwelling, it would greatly help us. And then that He is prepared to speak to us.
Ques. Would it be a normal thing that God should speak to us in the assembly on the first day of the week?
A.J.G. I think so. I think you could, we might well expect that.
Ques. Is it remarkable that whilst the principle of separation comes in and is very, very necessary, the idea of the tabernacle is never given up, the greatness of it?
A.J.G. Well, exactly.
And that brings us to Chapter 33, because it is a good thing for us to be clear in our minds as to the ground on which we are, and when we speak of the assembly. Young ones
are constantly coming amongst us, that we are thankful for it, and young ones who perhaps have been brought up in the position in which many of us have been through mercy. But it is a good thing to understand why we are where we are.
Rem. So that it’s a very touching word, “every one that sought Jehovah went out to the tent of meeting”.
A.J.G. Well, the remarkable thing was that the tent of meeting itself, that is the tabernacle, had not yet been made. God had made known His mind in regard of it, but had not yet been constructed. And then this condition of idolatry in the camp arises. I think perhaps many do not realise that the children of Israel, in making the golden calf, would have told you that they were not giving up Jehovah; they made this calf and they could speak of the feast of Jehovah: the calf was their conception of Jehovah. They reduced Him to the mere conception of the human mind, and then they worshipped it. It was a lifeless state of things, and yet they were professing to go on with Jehovah. And in that condition of things, they could sit down to eat and drink and rise up to play. They could just please themselves, and yet go on ostensibly with the service of God. And it was formal and idolatrous in God’s sight. Well, now, that is
exactly the position in the religious world around us. with the service of God. And now in that position, Moses moves with instinct. And he takes the tent, presumably his own tent, or any tent, and pits it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tent of meeting. He does not give up the divine thought, but he shows that in very limited circumstances and in much reproach, as it would be just a tent far off from the camp, he would maintain the divine thought, and that it was essential that it should be far away from what was idolatrous. and that it was essential that it should be far away from what was idolatrous.
Rem. Geographically, it was not very far away because they watched Moses go into it, but morally it was far away.
A.J.G. Yes, exactly.
Rem. It is suggested that it seems to be an individual matter: “and it came to pass that everyone who sought Jehovah went out to the tent of meeting”.
A.J.G. It was an individual matter.
Rem. Like Hebrews, where it says, “going forth to him without the camp”.
A.J.G. Yes. And like 2 Timothy 2, “him
who names the name of the Lord withdraws
From iniquity”. It is a matter of each one taking up in his own soul that we must not connect what is iniquitous with the Name of Christ.
Rem. So that this tent would really speak of Moses’ own living conditions, which he judged would be acceptable to God; and therefore taking it away from the camp where the iniquity was, God would be free to still continue with the people?
A.J.G. Yes, exactly. We do not read here anything of gold or silver or copper or anything of that sort. The essential for the moment was separation from evil. And Moses understands that.
Ques. You think that for the time being, until the ark was made and the tabernacle set up, God has a moral basis for going on with Israel in the tent of meeting removed far from the camp by Moses?
A.J.G. Exactly. And God was quick to show
His approval of this action on Moses’ part, because it says that “the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the entrance of the tent and Jehovah talked with Moses”. So we have got the presence of God and divine speaking secured on these lines, though it be in such outward smallness and obscurity.
Rem. And divine speaking in excess of expectation.
A.J.G. Yes, I suppose so. He talked with Moses.
Rem. Yes, He talked face to face as a man speaks with his friends.
A.J.G. Quite so.
Ques. When Moses is called it the tent of meeting, he is giving us no divine thought, is he?
A.J.G. Well, that is the idea, I think; that he is cherishing divine thought, but he sees that the first essential is that there must be a repudiation of evil.
Ques. Do you not think we need to be concerned to develop more of this feature so that when things may become unhappy in our locality—which God forbid, yet you see the apostle, the resort that he had at Corinth, to hold to the position abstractly till it becomes true of them concretely?
A.J.G. I am sure that is right. So Moses took
a tent and pitched it outside the camp and called it the tent of meeting. He is holding to the
divine thought, is he not? And relying upon individual exercise to come out and support the position.
Ques. May we then expect that, where there is the cherishing of divine thoughts and the complete repudiation of evil, we may expect that God would be with us in greater liberty and intimacy, as verse 11 might suggest, do you think?
A.J.G. Yes, I do think that. And then it brings to light a young man, Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man “departed not from within the tent”. He was wholly committed to it. He went into the text and departed not from it.
Ques. The name, Nun, means continuation, and would he be one like Timothy who would link on with all that had been brought to his notice, and for his affections in Moses? And as far as he was concerned, he would desire that that should be continued to the end.
A.J.G. He was a young man with a with a good history. He had led the conflict with Amalek; that is, he had learned to judge the flesh, so as to make room for the Spirit. And now he commits himself fully to this position, whatever the reproach of all this. And he never goes back from it. That is an important matter. He departed not from within the tent.
Rem. There was no speaking on the part of Jehovah with anybody who remained in his own tent, was there?
A.J.G. No there was not.
Ques. What does it mean to go out to the entrance of his tent, what is the entrance to his tent?
A.J.G. Well, every man was at the entrance of his tent, his own tent; that is that a great many of them were more concerned with their own affairs than considering for God: “his tent” is the individual’s tent in contrast to the tent of meeting.
Rem. The idea of the together is to judge evil first and then choose the good.
A.J.G. Yes, “cease to do evil, learn to do well” (Isa 1: 16, 17); that is the great principle.
Rem. This is not just an ecclesiastical situation, but a reflection of the condition which Philadelphia represents.
A.J.G. Well, yes, I suppose that is right. It is a question of individual instinct with Moses, a recognition that the name of God must not be connected with evil, and on the other hand, that divine thoughts are not to be surrendered. And hence, as withdrawing from iniquity, individually, we find others have done the same, and we go on with them. And as moving together, you come then to the light of the assembly, because that is the only light to
regulate the movements together of saints of God.
Ques. Are there not some Christians who claim to be outside the camp, but they have not gone far enough, and they miss the communications because they are only given in one place?
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure that is important.
Ques. Is there some principle of God identifying himself with the position? Would that still be discernible today?
A.J.G. Oh, I am sure it would.
Rem. The pillar of the cloud is quite a new matter, is it not, at the entrance of the tent?
A.J.G. The pillar of south had previously come between them and the Egyptians. But now He shows His approval of this position by identifying Himself with this small position, just an ordinary tent, far off from the camp, and yet God is there.
Ques. Was the pillar of clouds, in that way, God giving confirmation to the movement of Moses?
A.J.G. Yes, the confirmation of His own presence and His own speaking. There is nothing more precious than that the presence of
God to be realised, and His communications heard.
Ques. Does Hebrews 13 bear on what is being said, the suffering of Jesus and the shedding of His blood calculated to awake our hearts so that we might to out to Him, resulting in praise Godward?
A.J.G. Yes, exactly. That is, the appeal that has gone forth unto Him without the camp, bearing His reproach. And then, as you say, it results in the sacrifice of praise to God continually.
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