ONE MAN ENTERED IN TO GOD'S ETERNAL SATISFACTION
ONE MAN ENTERED IN TO GOD’S ETERNAL SATISFACTION
Ques What is the force of the word ‘sin’ in this chapter?
Ques Sin is the principle of independence of God, insubjection to God.
Ques Does it not suppose a state that expresses itself in deeds, but the state is what is in view?
Ques If I continue to live in that life in which I am found alive in sin, and guilty, the outcome must be sin, because the state is independence of God, and the outcome is enmity against Him.
Ques Is the argument that you ought not or you cannot continue in sin?
Ques You cannot.
FER If you have died to it.
Ques Have we not died to it in baptism? You are committed to it in baptism.
FER I believe you are committed in baptism to death in order to die, you are committed to Christ’s death in order that you may die.
Ques What you said this morning is very important, as to the standpoint of the two chapters 5 and 6.
FER In chapter 5 the Lord is presented to us as the last Adam, in whom God has in grace reached us. In chapter 6 He comes in as the second Man, the first and representative of the heavenly family. The question of sin is necessarily raised, because if you are in company with the second Man you must part company with the first.
Ques We get the expression “in Christ” for the first time in this chapter. Is that what is in your mind?
FER Yes.
Ques How does a person die to sin?
FER [p. 222] In reckoning himself dead (verse 11).
Ques True Christian ground is reckoning yourself dead to sin, and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
FER You only reckon yourself alive in Christ Jesus in proportion as you reckon yourself dead to sin.
Ques Would it not be better to say Christian state instead of Christian ground?
FER I do not think you can speak of Christian state apart from the Spirit, and you do not get the Spirit in that aspect till chapter 8.
Ques What is the ground on which we die to sin?
FER Our old man has been crucified with Christ, that is judicial. The whole moral history of the man has been closed in the death of Christ, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin”.
Ques We cannot reckon ourselves dead otherwise than that our old man has been crucified with Christ?
FER No; you would have no title to reckon yourself dead. Our title to die is “our old man has been crucified with him”; but then we have to die.
Ques What do you mean by “have to die”, passing through it morally?
FER I think you have to come to that point. It is a point that has a beginning in the Christian. He has to reckon himself dead indeed unto sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. “In Christ Jesus” does not apply to both clauses; you are not dead to sin in Christ Jesus, but “alive to God in Christ Jesus”.
Ques It is only as alive unto God in Christ Jesus that you can be dead to sin.
FER Quite so.
Ques Is the reckoning to be carried on continually?
FER I think it has to be maintained.
Ques Sin is the principle of antagonism to God; it is a rival principle, and in this way identified with [p. 223] man; the principle of rivalry and antagonism to God. How shall we who have died to sin live in it?
Ques By what power does a man reckon himself dead to sin?
FER By the Spirit.
Ques Does not this verse suppose the Spirit, though He is not definitely introduced?
FER Yes; but He has been introduced in chapter 5. The Spirit is not prominent in these two chapters. The great thing is to present Christ in a new aspect, but the Spirit underlies it. You do not get the Spirit in the Christian until Christ is in His right place. You are not in a condition to travel that way until Christ is put in His proper place in your soul.
Ques You cannot carry out the reckoning of chapter 6 without this verse 2 of chapter 8.
FER You cannot; but a great many try to skip chapters 6 and 7 — to pass on from chapter 5 to chapter 8. They have an apprehension of the grace that has reached them; they have the Spirit and they want to have the practice of chapter 8 without going through these two. You must change your man; that is chapter 6, and you are married to Another (chapter 7); you take your character from Him, “that we should bring forth fruit unto God”. The woman takes her character from the man, not the man from the woman. The expression “in Christ Jesus” puts you in company with Him. You are of His lineage. You were in Adam; now you belong to another line. You have life in Christ Jesus, not in connection with Adam; you have changed your man.
Ques Does not this involve the carrying out what is practical and experimentally true in Another — in Christ?
FER It is carrying out what is true in Christ.
Ques It is true of us then as based on that (verses 10, 11)?
FER It is carrying out in us what is true [p. 224] in Christ, but the great idea is as to the sense in your soul — we are going to join company with Him.
Ques You get a reference to practice in verse 12, do you not? “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body”.
FER And you get the answer to that in chapter 8: 2, “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free”.
Ques If the Spirit of God is in me, sin is no longer the governing principle. That comes out in the latter part of the chapter.
FER It is one thing to be set free from sin, and another thing to die to it. Many a one has been set free from sin who has not died to it.
Ques There is such a thing as a sort of mental deliverance?
FER Any man really converted is in a way delivered from the domination of sin.
Ques But what as to Romans 7, “sold under sin”?
FER He has not yet believed the gospel; he is born again, but hardly what we should call converted.
Ques Conversion implies you are turned right round to God, who has first turned to you.
FER You have no right to turn to God until then. God must turn to man before man can turn to God.
There are two parts in chapter 6 — what is prospective and what is retrospective. In all the latter part of the chapter the apostle refers to what has taken place, verse 18, “Being then made free from sin”, but the first part of the chapter is prospective. He is inviting you to die to sin in order that you may join Him who was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father. You have not come to that yet as things are looked at in the chapter. The apostle is encouraging the saints to it; but in the latter part of the chapter he acknowledges the initial deliverance that has taken place, which I should connect more with conversion. The apostle [p. 225] takes up the subject in this way. Everyone must acknowledge that sin is incompatible with grace. You cannot continue in sin if you have apprehended grace; he raises the question in chapter 6 as to how you are to be free from sin.
Ques By death.
FER But to what end? I think death has been taken up in connection with the chapter too exclusively.
Ques There is no deliverance in death itself.
FER You must die to sin in order to be associated with the One who lives to God. It is in order to live to God; that is the point. Liberty is connected with life; you must reach that through death. It is plain if you are going to join the second Man you must die to the first man.
Ques You say that marks a point in a person’s history subsequent to receiving the Spirit?
FER The idea of the second Man comes into the soul’s apprehension, and you are conscious if you are going to have company with the One you must part company with the other.
Ques You find the first man is a positive hindrance. How are you to get rid of it but by death?
FER We know very little indeed of how completely the first man is eclipsed by the Second! I like a good exemplary man, but that is not the idea; it is another Man of a totally different order, entirely to God’s satisfaction.
Ques Are not verses 6 and 7 actually true whether we realise it or not?
FER That is so as to verse 6.
Ques I should like to understand verse 7 a little better.
FER You are to know it, “Knowing this”, etc., verse 7 is abstract. The first part of verse 6 is the fact of what has been done; the remaining part is the intention in it; it was with that object in view.
Ques. How do you get it?
FER [p. 226] You have to learn the attractiveness of Christ. He must have the first place in your soul. It is not apart from the Spirit, but it has to be got before the Spirit can lead you on in His line. All this takes us up to the point of the brazen serpent. Chapter 8 begins with that, but you have first to learn death on everything; you are in the wilderness; the practical purpose of it is — you have to surrender one man, in order to join Another.
Ques Is death the way into life?
FER Yes; there is no other way. If you are to enter the Holiest you must travel the road Christ has gone.
Ques That is a daily thing?
FER Yes; but it has a beginning.
Ques It is an immense thing to reach the point where you reckon yourself dead. It is not how far one fails in it. What I found in my own soul was, when I got to the second Man I found the other man a hindrance; then the question arose, how could I get rid of him?
Ques Is it not important to understand verse 10? Many see atonement or propitiation, but this is not one or the other, it is something which I am told to likewise reckon as to myself.
FER It is the entering in of the second Man upon new ground to the perfect satisfaction of God. He enters in as the first of the new company. He has entered in through death (Hebrews 9); we enter in in chapter 10. If we come in, it must be by the same way — that is, death and resurrection.
Ques Sin barred the way to God; not in Himself personally, blessed be His name. He died to it completely, to all that is comprehended in that word ‘sin’, and lives no longer in that order and sphere of things to which it belonged. He has died to it.
FER Supposing all the grace of chapter 5 possible, if Christ had not entered in you could never [p. 227] enter in, and no man ever could have stood there if Christ were not first there. Man could not get there, and if he could get there he could not stand there.
Ques It is not new creation; it is not what is said in Ephesians, “in Christ”; it is the path He has trod, and you have to go after Him.
FER In this chapter you have not Christian state; it is what you have in Christ, life in Christ; He lives unto God.
Ques When you come to chapter 8: 1, is not new creation involved, though not stated?
FER I think it is involved, but I do not think this epistle goes so far as that.
Ques What is the force of “we also” (verse 4)?
FER The standard is completely changed; “The glory of the Father” becomes the standard for the walk of the Christian. I think the Christian has to walk in the sense that he is in the place to the satisfaction of the Father.
Ques It is not a godly life in connection with the Messiah according to the flesh, but Christ has taken a new place according to the glory of the Father, and that determines the place for the Christian. That becomes the standard of walk.
Ques You begin a new start. He began a new history with being raised out of the dead by the glory of the Father — that is characteristic of “newness of life”.
FER Verse 5 helps. It gives you the great idea, it is identification with Him.
Ques What is “that form of doctrine” (verse 17)? Is it what he is teaching now?
FER Some identify it with baptism.
Ques In Timothy it is said, “Have an outline of sound words” — that is, have it in your apprehension.
Ques I have taken it more as the gospel (no doubt it is what was professed in baptism); the truth as to Christ having died and risen again.
FER [p. 228] I fancy it might have been the administration of divine righteousness; the death of Christ as the basis on which divine righteousness rests; sin put away to God’s complete satisfaction, and therefore not to be admitted in the believer. It brings in the thought of acceptance.
Ques Sin does not intrude in that sphere of life at all.
FER The great point in this chapter is, man has entered in. “Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father”. If you had this chapter alone, you would not apprehend entirely the truth. John 6 fills it out. John takes one side, and Paul the other. In John it is the inherent excellence of what has come out, “Living bread which came down from heaven”; with Paul it is the value of what has entered in; you must have the one to complete the other. As a matter of fact, John has been learned last; we have got hold of Paul’s teaching much more readily than John’s.
Ques While we could not apprehend this apart from the Spirit, yet you cannot get on the line of the Spirit till you have this; you are ready then to have John opened out. You must get to this through death and resurrection, the Spirit does not open out the excellencies of Christ till you are on the ground to receive it. You must get to Christ; then the Spirit leads you on.
Ques Why do saints turn so much to John’s writings?
Ques There is a loveliness and beauty in John that touches the heart, though one may not understand it.
FER I think people are not in a condition to touch John till they understand Paul’s line of truth. The gospel never came to you from John. The gospel comes through Paul, not from John.
Ques It is a little striking that John is given to us last.
FER John comes in for the filling up. You get [p. 229] the architect in Paul. You see what God was doing. Man has entered in according to the satisfaction of God; but John gives the filling up.
Ques And shows you who that Man is. You get the attractiveness of the Person of Christ. You never get the conscience set at rest in John. You have to go to Paul for solid ground on which your soul is to rest.
FER I do not believe in short cuts; many try them, but they prove a long way round.
Ques G.V.W. used to say of someone preaching from John 5: 24, he gave no solid ground for a soul to rest on.
FER You must get the soul at rest on the solid ground of the cross. You must have the line of things Paul presents to get peace; you must have righteousness as a basis. Paul opens out righteousness. People ought to see the distinct place that each apostle has in his ministry. Paul had the ministry of the gospel and the church. I do not find John had either, and yet his writings are most essential to Paul’s for the filling up of his ministry. To me a wonderful truth is opened up in Romans 6, that one Man has entered in to the eternal satisfaction of God. That is our acceptance. Though I have not travelled much that line, I see it, and I am to join that Man. I am identified with Him. It goes on to the resurrection of the body. “We believe that we shall also live with him” — the full result. You would not die with Him unless you knew you would live with Him. If you are going to live with Him you had better begin that life now, and reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. His death was a death in which God was glorified, on the ground of which He was raised; you come in on that ground.
Ques Is not “the likeness of his death” baptism?
FER Yes.
Ques What is being planted together in the likeness of [p. 230] His death?
FER I take it up morally as identification with His death. But “out of the eater came forth meat”. The death of Christ is the annulling of the penalty of sin, but God is so glorified that He brings resurrection in. It yielded something for God; you have the penalty annulled and the introduction of what is new.
Ques What is “I am the resurrection, and the life”, John 11?
FER You get part in the resurrection by virtue of vital connection with Him. “Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming”.
Ques It all turns on the point — if we are of that Man, everything must be according to Him.
FER I only feel very much ashamed, in common with a great many more, at the practical preference that is given to the first man. If you look at people’s deportment, dress, houses, business, preaching and a great many more things, you see how much the first man is preferred to the Second. We ought to be free of the first man morally. You do not want to die to sin for God. God quickened us when we were dead in sins. That is the divine side. We have to die to sin for ourselves. All is looked at in Ephesians from the divine side.
Ques That shows the importance of bringing in experience on our side.
FER There are the two sides, that is certain; if you confound them you spoil both sides.
Rem If we were converted and went straight to heaven we should not want this at all.
FER No; but you would be very small in heaven; you would not have the Spirit’s work in the believer — the practical displacing of the one and bringing in of the other; there would not be much time for all this.
Ques All this (Romans 6) is connected with faith and exercise.
FER Ephesians 1 and 2 are the actings of [p. 231] divine power. Ephesians is divine counsel. Romans is the converse side, the dealing of God in grace with one who has been alive in sin; we start here. Romans is necessary in order to reach Ephesians. When you have got into it, God can unfold to you the truth of things in His sight. God quickened you together with Him; that is the whole matter for God.
Ques Romans 6 is the beginning of the Christian course in the wilderness as set free from sin.
FER Chapter 8 takes up the line of the Spirit. Christ has entered in; now you enter in: that is the great point. You would not be complete unless you had chapter 8: 2.
Ques What do you mean by “entered in”?
FER The instant He “was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father” He entered in to all the satisfaction of God. He rose into the eternal satisfaction of God on the ground of the work He has accomplished. That is the ground on which we go in, as far as I understand. No man can understand what Christ entered into as Man when He rose from the dead; it was so infinite.
Ques Is that “the joy that was set before him”?
Ques “Thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance”. “In thy presence is fulness of joy”. If we had the sense of what God’s satisfaction is in having Christ in His presence, and that we are to be like Him, we should want the experience of this chapter a little more, in order to be like Him now. Many are clear from their sins, but if you want to be for Christ here you must join Him, you must reach Him. You will be raised like Christ, you will be like Him, that is the joy of your heart; you will not carry a bit of the old man in there; why should we retain him here?