CIRCUMCISION AND RISEN WITH CHRIST
[p. 349] CIRCUMCISION AND RISEN WITH CHRIST
FER We have had circumcision, spiritual circumcision, and risen with Christ, put before us this morning. I do not know whether it would be profitable to read Colossians 2. I thought of two points that are prominent in that chapter — circumcision and risen with Christ.
FHB In the type in Joshua risen comes first.
JSB What is the burden of the epistle?
FER It is the realisation of the truth of the one body here as Christ’s body, it is before the manifestation of Christ in glory; you get the idea in the first chapter, “Christ among you the hope of glory”.
FHB Is “Christ in you” corporate or individual?
FER I do not think it is individual. It is Christ in the Gentiles strictly.
JSB Is not chapter 1: 23 individual?
FER You have not got off responsibility there. Christ in you the hope of glory is put abstractly, as the riches of the glory of the mystery.
GG Is it because of the moral instruction that ‘risen’ comes after ‘circumcision’?
FER Well, I think that though typically resurrection had to come first, morally circumcision must come first, or at any rate they are concurrent.
FHB Circumcising after crossing the Jordan was due to their neglect?
FER Yes; but you could not really have risen with Christ apart from circumcision.
GP What is Christian circumcision?
FER The passage tells us, “In putting off the body of the flesh”.
WB We do not all quite [p. 350] understand that.
FER But then no one can help another to the understanding of it.
DLH I suppose, strictly speaking, the Israelites did not properly occupy the land before circumcision?
FER Well, they could not occupy it according to God, it would have been an owning of the flesh.
DLH But you were saying something about risen and circumcision being connected as something remarkable. What did you mean?
FER I do not think you can get the idea of “risen with Christ” except as having put off the body of the flesh. I understand by resurrection the realisation of deliverance. I do not think it is a dead man that realises he is free; a risen man is free; but you are not free except as having put off the body of the flesh, and this is by the circumcision of Christ.
WH Putting off the body of the flesh is through death, is it not?
FER Well, it is; it means it in a little different aspect.
THR The circumcision of Christ was the separation of Christ from the whole circle and region of the flesh, just as the circumcision of Abraham separated him from all the nations; of course, the circumcision of Christ goes further.
FER And therefore it is that God cannot own the flesh in us; it is not simply the rejection of it in its gross form, but the flesh in every form; it is the man gone.
FHB You were saying that the moral effect of circumcision is the consciousness of human weakness.
FER Well, I think so, it is a very great point in it.
FHB It brings in the power of the Spirit.
FER You are prepared for the power of the Spirit; you are not prepared for the power of the Spirit except as you are consciously weak in the flesh,
[p. 351] for you would naturally cling to the flesh; but everything is gone in circumcision.
HD'AC All human religion is connected with the flesh.
FER In the Old Testament the Spirit of God connected Himself with natural power. Take a man like Samson, the Spirit came upon him, and endued flesh with supernatural energy; we are on different lines now; the whole thing is refused; you have to realise you are weak. Take a man like Paul; you would have thought he might have taken up the work of the Lord in natural energy; a great many people would argue that he did so — that he was a man of great natural force of character, as is seen in his persecution, and now he is turned round and shows great energy in the work of the Lord; but that does not explain the matter to me.
THR What we see in 2 Corinthians 12 is that God made nothing of him.
FER God made nothing of him, for he says, “When I am weak, then am I strong”.
AH Is not chapter 2: 11 true in Christ, and chapter 3: 5 the practical application to ourselves of the circumcision: when we are viewed as risen it is “mortify therefore”?
FER I think the exhortation of chapter 3: 2 hangs on “risen with Christ” (verse 1). The exhortation to mortify connects itself with verses 3 and 4: “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory”. Then he says, “Mortify”. I do not think “mortify” hangs on risen, it hangs on dead.
DLH We could not mortify our members on the earth unless we were dead.
FER No, I do not think you could. I think the apostle is taking up the practical part in chapter 3; chapter 2 is the way you get into the realisation of the [p. 352] truth of the one body. I do not think chapter 2 is the practical part; chapter 3 is the practical part; chapter 2 shows us how we have come into association with Christ — where Christ is known as Head — and it is really through these things, circumcision and resurrection; you can only come into it in that way.
THR Do you not think the great point in Colossians is that you are complete in Him?
FER Quite so.
GG What is your thought in that?
THR It comes out in chapter 3, Christ is everything; you have not to go outside Christ for anything.
GG Is it corrective or the teaching of the epistle?
THR It is the teaching of this epistle, but it is corrective; you get justified in Romans, complete in Colossians, accepted in Ephesians. One deals with the responsible man, the other is state, and the other place; accepted in the Beloved involves place.
FHB Then being complete in Christ is not our standing before God in Him?
THR No, I think not.
FHB You said ‘state’ — Is it ‘filled up’?
THR Yes.
FHB The practical result of holding the Head.
THR I think fulness is a great word in Colossians; it seems so to me.
MG What is the idea of ‘complete’ in Colossians?
THR That you cannot go outside Christ for anything, all connected with the flesh is disowned.
FC Is it being filled full?
THR Yes.
FC You say ‘fulness’ is a great word in Colossians?
THR I go back to chapter 1; it is a most wonderful thing, that the doctrine of the mystery gives fulness to the word of God; the church is the fulness of Christ, and He is the spirit of all that is spoken [p. 353] about in Scripture. If you take the doctrine or setting forth of anything in Scripture the fulness of it could not be told till the mystery came out; the mystery gives fulness to the word of God. J.B.S. has often referred to the last verses in John’s gospel: if all the things that Jesus did were written in a book the world would not contain them; but in the church everything will come out.
EC Do you think truth as to Israel will come out in the church?
THR Yes. Israel will get much from the church. John 17: 22, 23 shows what will be known through the heavenly saints. The new Jerusalem is the city Abraham looked for.
JR Is that why all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid in it?
THR I think so; I think you get the idea of fulness in Colossians. Christ is the image of the invisible God, the setting forth of God, for all the fulness was pleased to dwell in Him; then in the church — the mystery, you have fulness given to the word of God; it is no longer confined to the narrow circle of Jewish thought, but expands into all the fulness of the purpose of God in Christ; then you are complete in Him, you do not want to go outside all the fulness of the Godhead.
AP And is it because of that you want circumcision?
THR Well, I think so, or else you come to the flesh.
DLH How far are we to take this verse, chapter 2: 11, “In whom also ye are circumcised, ..”. is it that it was really entered into by the Colossians, or what?
FER I do not see how it could be true if it is not entered into.
FHB Could they not have it set before them to enter into?
FER [p. 354] He states it as true of them.
FHB Is it not true of all in Christ?
FER You could not have it in any other way; you are not literally circumcised; if you are circumcised it is in Christ; it would not have been stated if it were not true of them; it is all a question of state.
FHB How could a soul enter into it?
FER They might be enabled to see that it was God’s way, but it is true; they had put off the body of the flesh.
DLH Then does chapter 2: 11 refer only to state or standing, or does it refer to what was true experimentally?
FHB What was true of them experimentally.
DLH What was true in the power of the Spirit.
FER That is what I should say.
GG Based on what took place when Christ died?
FER Quite so; else there could not be anything in it at all; we are not literally circumcised; it is in Him — in “the circumcision of Christ”.
FHB Could he so address the whole of the company at Colosse?
F.E.R. Is it done so?
THR That is the point; he says, “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him”.
DLH He did not address the Galatians in this way; as to the Colossians, speaking generally, it was true of them.
FER I think that is exactly the point; he could address the Colossians thus; it was saying what was characteristic of them generally; not so when speaking to the Galatians.
THR He could say to the Colossians, “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord”.
EC Then it might be true only of a minority in the assembly?
FER It was true for all in Christ, effected [p. 355] for all in Christ; experimentally it might not be true of all.
FHB I think that makes it plain.
Ques “Our old man has been crucified with him”?
FER Well, but I think that is what has been effected on the divine side in order to show you that the flesh cannot be revived; it is brought in in that way. Many things that are true for God have to be made good to me; “What the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us”. That is true for God; so, too, “our old man has been crucified”. What that passage proves to me is that God would not revive that man again. Take again, “I am crucified with Christ”. Here Paul says this, and it is what is realised.
EC As to a thing being true for God, is not Revelation 21: 6 an example, “It is done”, when nothing was done?
FER Yes, but I think in a sense everything is effected for God in Christ, and the church is to come out as Christ.
JSB Is that how they had received Him?
THR It is not merely that it was a work, but a Person that they knew. I think it is an immense thing when you get to the Person.
FHB That supposes that you relinquish the first man.
AP Joshua circumcised the children of Israel; they suffered it experimentally?
FER Everything in the history of the children of Israel is experimental; that is the great value to us of their history; God knew His purposes about them, but all that took place, all that is written, is a type of the experimental side; that shows conclusively the [p. 356] enormous importance which Scripture attaches to the experimental side.
B-t. Is that what you mean by state?
FER Yes; no Christian is beyond what is effected in him by the power of the Spirit; that is his measure.
FHB It makes us look small, when you think of what is wrought in you.
FER You are not to think at all of it.
AP It is very helpful to see this side of things.
FER Yes; I think the whole idea of standing and state may need to be reconsidered.
DLH Well, let us begin.
FER I do not quite know (I am quite willing to be taught) where the idea of standing comes from.
FHB Would you not allow that a Christian has a standing in Christ?
FER If you talk of my standing, I am a justified man who has received the Holy Spirit.
FHB But what about being “in Christ”?
FER The moment you bring in “in Christ” it is new creation, it is state.
FHB I thought God had given us a place in Christ apart from the Spirit’s work.
FER I do not talk of the work of the Spirit as my standing; there is, I admit, the revelation in Christ of God’s purpose for us, and that is our title; I enter into the thought of God for me, but my standing is that I am justified and have received the Holy Spirit, all else to me is the work of the Spirit.
FHB We have a position in Christ?
FER God has revealed His mind and purposes in Christ, and we have the light of it in Christ; but it is all made effectual by new creation; if any man is in Christ there is a new creation.
DLH It is the work of God in the soul.
FER That is really state.
EC-p If physical death comes in, what is left?
FER [p. 357] What the Spirit has effected and the spirit of the man — the conscious individuality.
Ques. Nothing else?
FER Nothing else would do for God.
JP Well, but the ground of my peace is not the Spirit’s work in me?
FER I said the contrary; that is not the ground of peace, but that I am justified.
JP That is standing.
FER The moment you come to “in Christ” you get the revelation of God’s purpose in Christ, and the work of the Spirit in the believer according to that purpose; that is new creation, it is not a question of standing.
EC-p He is only fitted for the second by having the first.
FER He could not touch the second if he had not the first.
FHB Has not Romans 8: 1 been put for standing, and verse 9 for state?
FER You have no direct teaching of “in Christ” in Romans; we have “we, being many, are one body in Christ”, you get that passage.
JSB What about Romans 8: 1?
FER It is an abstract statement. There is no condemnation to them which are “in Christ Jesus”.
JSB Is it a new position?
FER I believe it is a new creation.
DLH Now with regard to Romans 6: 11: “Reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus”, what about that?
FER That is state and experimental; what I understand by standing is the place I have before God as a man justified. I have peace with God.
FHB You are justified in Christ.
FER I quite admit that the presentation of my justification is in Christ. He is my righteousness.
MG God has certain purposes, what [p. 358] about them?
FER God has revealed His purpose in Christ; I have the light of it, and He works in me in the power of the Spirit, that I may be formed according to that purpose.
B-t. You always have the standing?
FER You always have the standing.
FHB That is, a man is justified.
FER He is always that.
MG In heaven he will not be a forgiven or a justified man.
FER He will not need that in heaven; nothing enters heaven but new creation.
DLH One is connected with responsibility, and the other with the purpose of God.
FER Precisely.
Ques “In Christ”, then, is the measure of my state?
FER Well, you do not get the glorified body here.
Ques The measure of our spiritual state?
FER Yes; the vessel is formed here spiritually; the body is the vehicle.
DLH Does not the first prayer in Ephesians unfold standing?
FER It is the Christian’s place according to God’s purpose, God has given us a certain place and revealed that place, the point of the prayer is that we may enter into His purpose.
Ques That you might really know it?
FER That you may know the inheritance and the power that brings you into it.
DLH I do not quite understand the difference between standing and position.
FER It would be very difficult to define it.
Ques Is “in Christ” in Ephesians 1 standing?
FER What are you referring to?
Ques “Being enlightened in the eyes of your heart”.
FER It is that you may know what is the hope, not the standing or position, but the riches of the [p. 359] glory of His inheritance; the whole point of the prayer is to know what is of God, His calling, His inheritance, His power.
DLH How is it accepted by the soul?
WH Is it not presented to the soul, and then the Spirit leads that one into it?
FER Well, I have no doubt it is.
EC-p God’s purpose remains, but my state increases.
FER Nothing can change His purpose; you get in Christ the full, perfect light of the purpose; but then I could not say I am it yet; but the light of His purpose about me is revealed.
MG We are not in the actuality of Ephesians 1: 4?
FER No, not in the actuality of it; but all is revealed in Christ.
ER The Spirit works for this?
FER It is all on these lines that the Spirit forms the believer. I can say in one sense I am it, but not in another.
Ques It can only be true when we are with Christ in glory?
FER It will be all true by-and-by, and yet according to the Spirit’s work it is true now.
DLH As having laid hold of this purpose?
FER Yes, quite so.
Ques It would not be the hope of His calling if we were fully in it now?
JP Is not Ephesians 1: 4 then true of us now?
FER Not absolutely so, but, then, I should be sorry to say that J.P. is not holy and without blame before God, in that sense.
Ques It is not practice, is it?
FER No, but I think it is real.
Ques. How?
FER The light is given to you that you may be real. It lies in the work of God, but it does not alter the fact that I have still my responsibility. I am a [p. 360] justified man in this world, and have to walk by the Spirit. It is an interesting point to see the different ways in the different epistles in which God is presented. In Romans it is according as every man must know Him in righteousness and power, for the question is of man’s responsibility; in Colossians it is according to the fulness of the Godhead; in Ephesians, according to the light of God’s counsels. This gives great help in reading the different epistles. In Romans, Christ is presented as revealing God in the way in which every man must know Him. In chapters 3 and 4, in His righteousness and power; righteousness is set forth in Christ’s blood, and power in His resurrection; you are not off the ground of the responsible man. In Colossians it is the fulness of the Godhead in Christ, that is the great point there. When you come to Ephesians all is according to the light of counsel; we have the God of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
WG In Ephesians we have the exaltation of Christ as Man, have we not?
FER Yes; because that is connected with divine counsels. But in Colossians what you are working up to is the truth of the one Body, the scene and sphere of spiritual affections, that is the great point, not going out as in Ephesians in the power of the Lord for conflict.
MG It is preparatory for the conflict.
FER Exactly, preparatory.
MG In that way it answers to Joshua 5?
FER Yes, you get in this chapter circumcision and risen with Christ; they are only preparatory that you may be free of the world; “quickened together with him” comes in directly after. This brings me into what is completely new; that is, into association with Christ and the scene of spiritual affections of which Christ is the centre.
JP Would you say in what our association consists?
FER [p. 361] It is in affection; I do not know whether people understand it; love is the life of God. People often talk of these things in a dead kind of way; they speak of “quickened with Christ” as standing, and the spiritual idea is completely missed. “Quickened together with Christ” is to bring you into a scene of spiritual affection, association with Christ and with one another in spiritual affection. The apostle would not throw this down broadcast, he would not say this of the Corinthians. I do not say it was not true of them.
MG They were not in the good of it.
FER That is it exactly.
DLH As regards life it has been common to say such-and-such a person has not got peace, but he has life; it is lowering the idea of life.
FER What they mean is that he is awakened.
FHB That he is born again.
DLH Yes, that is what they mean; Scripture does not apply the term ‘life’ to such a state.
FER How can any person read Scripture without seeing that it connects life with the other side of Jordan?
THR Quickened comes before risen in Ephesians.
FER There it is raising you up in view of being seated in heaven.
THR Really here in Colossians it is to give you a place upon earth.
FER Yes; and you come into the one Body.
EC Would you say they had no life in the wilderness?
FER The question of life is not touched at all in type till you come to the brazen serpent; then they sing, “Spring up, O well”, but you do not get the springing up of the Spirit in this way till you are through Jordan. There is now a scene of spiritual affection, and we are privileged to be there, a place in [p. 362] which Christ was alone when on earth, but in which we are privileged to be with Him now.
DLH And this is life eternal.
FER Exactly, we are privileged to be in that circle.
EC What do you make of Romans 8: 10, “The Spirit is life”?
FER It is because in Romans you are not said to be quickened. In Romans 8 the believer has everything in the Spirit. That is the point there; that is true of every Christian; but then that raises the question as to how far the work of the Spirit has gone on in him.
THR Where has it brought him to? You cannot talk of being quickened if you are not over Jordan.
AH But we are the sons of God in Romans.
FER Sonship is there in the Spirit.
FHB We just touch life in Romans 8: 2, “The law of the Spirit of life ...”
FER “Hath made me free”, that only goes to liberty.
THR To assure the entrance into privilege. We have a whole scene of new affections, and that on the other side of Jordan. Flesh is gone, it is not Jew loving Jew, but the brethren; you have been made to live in that.
FER Where can you get that except on the other side of Jordan? I do not think death is deliverance. You must have death, of course, but deliverance is connected with resurrection. Resurrection is that I am free of all; I am out of it; all of man closes in death, and you cannot reach resurrection without death.
MG What is the difference between deliverance and liberty?
FER Liberty is more. It may be spoken of as privilege; deliverance is more initial. In John we have, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed”. That is the privilege of the house, like the freeman of a city.
FHB Liberty is the result of deliverance?
FER Yes.
Ques Romans 8: 1. Does deliverance suppose a new place?
FER Well, I think it supposes new creation; only Romans never brings you to new creation. The only passage which touches the Body is in the hortatory part; that just brings in the thought of the Body.
JP “If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live”. What of that?
FER “Ye shall live”, it is conditional; here in Colossians you get a very much more positive statement, “You ... hath he quickened”.
JP What does “quickened” mean?
FER Brought you into life in association with Christ, and I am perfectly convinced that you cannot touch it save as risen together with Him; until you are entirely free from law and the world you do not come into it. There is many a good Christian who is not there — not risen with Christ in that sense; I have no doubt about it; he is just as much justified as I am, and he has got the Spirit as much as I have, but does not know much about being risen with Christ. He has hardly, perhaps, got out of Babylon.
Ques You could not well apply this passage to him?
FER It is not true in his soul.
HD'AC A man that keeps sabbath and new moon, where is he?
FER Well, do you see, he is very hostile to the Colossians, trying to divert them; it is practically the Jew.
Ques There was philosophy.
FER Yes; you see the temptation to the Colossians was not the intrusion of the flesh in a gross form,
[p. 364] the effort was to make it contributory to the work of God.
GG What is the difference between life in the Spirit and life in Christ?
FER I do not think there is any life in the Spirit except what is in Christ. Life is to live in the blessed consciousness of the love of God in the out-of-the-world heavenly condition in which Christ lives; to live in the light of divine love.
MG Is it not a practical deliverance? You are not actually living otherwise.
FER Exactly, that is the point in it.
DLH I think it was written by Mr. Darby that life is that by which we enjoy the position we are set in, was it not?
FER That is the truth of it.
EC It is not a dogma.
MG We find persons in different positions, and according to the position, they live.
THR It must be a reality for every one of us. The question is whether we have reached Christ where He is; if you have, you cannot join with this world or anything of the flesh again; if we really reach Him it must be through death; you cannot have Him this side; surely we know whereabouts we are, whether we have gone that way.
FER Do not let us be content with shams; let us either have the thing, or say we have not got it.
DLH I suppose there has been a kind of subtlety in making people suppose that they had got it in some way or other in standing, so that they did not trouble about it more.
FER You see the practical working out of this was that the state of the Christian was almost entirely ignored.
DLH For this state they had substituted another.
FER Practically.
FHB The state of a man’s soul.
MG Instead of a thing divinely given and formed.
JP What do you mean by saying that you do not get life until you come to the brazen serpent?
FER You do not get the idea of it. Looking at the children of Israel, what you have got is a justified, delivered people, started in the flesh under law. There is no life; that is the idea typically until you come to the brazen serpent when the law has done its work; the thought of life is not brought in until flesh is proved irremediable; that is why you get the brazen serpent in John 3; it connects itself with the thought of life.
DLH It looks at things from the point of view of God’s counsels.
FER Exactly. You have to be identified with His death. Romans 6 is that you drink the bitter waters of Marah. The children of Israel had to drink the bitter waters, but I do not think that is to be identified with Jordan, which is in view of the purposes of God.
FHB What about Romans 6: 2?
FER It is the bitter waters of Marah; you have to accept what is upon you.
DLH What is the meaning of “If we be dead with Christ” (verse 8), and “planted together in the likeness of his death”? What is “dead with Christ” just there?
FER Well, it is put hypothetically; no man would care to be identified with Christ in death if he did not apprehend that he was going to live with Him.
DLH Looking on to glory?
JP What about “If we have been planted ...”?
FER It is hypothetical.
Ques There is difficulty in the type of the brazen serpent; was that counsel?
FER John 3 is on the ground of divine counsel as to eternal life, though it expresses the love of God to the world; “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. The way of life was through death.
DLH The brazen serpent was at the end of the wilderness, preparatory to entering the land.
GG Is not the Red Sea “dead with Christ”?
FER No; it is that Christ is risen, and you are justified; you are put out of the reach of the enemy’s power; it is not our resurrection; it is that you are free of the accusation of the enemy. Christ “was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification”. It is Christ’s resurrection, not ours.
GW It says, “we have been buried ... with him”.
FER That refers to baptism. All these passages that begin with “if” are hypothetical; it supposes a case; it is so in chapters 8 and 5. It is clear, I think, that Romans 6 corresponds to Marah, and that the beginning of chapter 8 corresponds to the brazen serpent. Between chapter 6 and the beginning of chapter 8 the law has come in and done its work; Romans 7.
FHB Why is life so much spoken of in Colossians?
FER It comes out there to show there is a scene of life here in an out-of-the-world condition of things to which the Body belongs. The Father and the Son is, I think, the key to the epistle.
DLH You enter into the life of heaven; is it not so?
FER In the circle of the one body, not simply in the mere fact of coming together, but as in the Christian circle.
JSB Why is it not individual?
FER Supposing you were an individual shut up in prison, you would not have a sphere for affections. I will tell you a verse, “We know we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren”. You have come into the circle of the brethren.
EC You can love them in prison?
FER I think you want to be in contact with them.
Ques But still the heart could go out to them.
FER Rather dull work, I do not think it would be very practical.
THR It would not be the Christian circle.
FER You would get much depressed if you did not come in contact with people; you do not love people much that you never meet; you see it exemplified in men who go to sea; their children are strange to them, and they are strange to their children; depend upon it, if you want affection you must have to do with people: if you do not have much to do with God you do not love Him much; you have to come into the presence of His love to have much sense of His affection, and the same, too, in regard to Christ.
WJ What is the relation of the prayer in Colossians 1 to the teaching of the epistle? It has always been a difficulty to me.
FER I do not think it has to do with the teaching. It is introductory; it has to do with walking worthy of the Lord to all pleasing. The teaching is opened up in connection with the Father and the Son. The Son of His love is everything.
WJ Then it is not that the prayer might be fulfilled by their entrance into the teaching?
FER The prayer is to remove all that would hinder you entering into the teaching; it is preparatory.
THR The apostle was setting them on new ground; even fruit-bearing came from a new graft altogether; the gospel had produced fruit in them, but the apostle desired that walk and ways might be governed by the knowledge of God’s will, that they might be for the Lord’s pleasure. It is a very important [p. 368] point for our souls — how far anyone of us can say death is gain, that you gain by giving up here, if you cross Jordan; it is positive gain; you would not find that there is any water in Jordan; it is the realisation in our souls of what is on the other side that draws us; thus it is a question of how far I have found the gain of the other side; I enter into a scene of holy affection which I never knew before; while you are on this side of Jordan it is all repression; you cannot open out; you are continually obstructed; every influence obstructs us. I think people want to break from everything that is natural, I do not mean that they ought to be unnatural, but to break from its power.
EC Leave man’s world to get into God’s world?
FER That is it.
DLH Has not the truth of the body been reduced to a kind of ecclesiastical organisation, so that the real interest of God with regard to it has been missed?
FER I think so.
THR The body is that in which every beautiful trait of Christ is to come out; it is not doctrine about it, but the setting forth of Christ.
FER The reproduction of Christ in His body, and a continuation of His testimony.
GWG No one individual could show forth what was in Him?
FER No.
EC The testimony of our Lord would include the mystery?
FER Well, I think the testimony in 2 Timothy 1 is the gospel; the body is that which is set here to display Christ; that there might be a reproduction of Christ on the one hand, and on the other to claim the inheritance.
W What do you mean by claim [p. 369] the inheritance?
FER That is the conflict. In Ephesians 6 the conflict is to maintain the inheritance of Christ; that is the testimony of the place Christ is in.
FHB You do not mean get the inheritance actually?
FER Christ claimed it when He was here — “I have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion”, Psalm 2. In a sense He claimed the inheritance; the church stands to it; claims it for Christ.
THR Really, it is the virgins going out; they expect the Bridegroom to come, they are true to His rights.
FHB It is not claiming it for ourselves.
FER If you claim it you stand in the truth of it. God has in His will headed up everything in Christ.
THR That is a very different thing from using the inheritance for ourselves.
DLH When we do enjoy it we enjoy it with Christ.
FER I think every member of the body needs to keep himself in the full light of divine love, under its influence; you want to get increase of the body.
EC-p It shows how necessary we are to one another.
FER Yes; and the way it works out is in affection one to another; we must be in the light of divine love; if we do not love one another it proves we are not there.
FWG “Teaching every man, presenting every man”?
FER Yes, quite so; Christ is the pattern Man.
THR I might say, too, the last time I saw Mr. Stoney he remarked that he felt he had failed in not sufficiently leading the saints into the sense of union; he told me to press upon the youngest believer that they have got a place in the body, and that they should seek to know what that place is; not to rest content with just thinking they are saved; God has got a [p. 370] place for them in His counsel, and the youngest should seek to know it.
WJ Increase of God, what is the force of it? Nature-love?
FER I should say so.
THR It is the divine work in souls.