THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIS MINISTRY

Matthew 16: 13–21; 17: 22, 23; Isaiah 50: 5–7; 53: 7–12; Matthew 18: 19, 20

JDG In chapter 16 the Lord waits on the Father to disclose something to Peter. Just prior to entering on our subject I would like to draw the brethren’s attention, particularly the younger brethren, to chapter 15 where the Lord Jesus, after having been wearied by the traditions of the Pharisees, He goes outside the realm of circumcision. Verses 22 and 23 of chapter 15 where the woman comes beseeching Him to heal her daughter; it says in verse 24, “he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel’s house”. Was there to be no hope for the Gentile? Ah yes, the heart of Christ could not contain Himself when that Gentile woman pleaded for mercy. She says in verse 27, after the Lord said, It is not well to take the bread of the children, that is the Jews, and cast it to the dogs, that is the Gentile, “Yea, Lord; for even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from the table of their masters”. How the Lord’s affections were moved and His power moved too to heal the daughter. That is what we began with in Romans 15, the Gentiles, the nations crying to the Lord for mercy.

Now the Lord Jesus is moving on by way of Caesarea-Philippi which is almost suggestive of a Gentile area, still within the limits of the Jew. He says, “Who do men say that I the Son of man am?” The Lord was waiting on the Father’s movements. How we have been affected previously by His address, “I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes”, Matthew 11: 25. Here is a man who is the subject of divine workmanship, Peter, the principle of revelation comes about. The Lord asks, “Who do men say that I the Son of man am?” And they said, “Some, John the baptist; and other Elias; and others again, Jeremias or one of the prophets”. Then He says to them, “But ye, who do ye say that I am?” That is a question for all of us here today. “Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens”.

It has been helpfully pointed out, he did not gain this knowledge of the Christ as Son of the living God from external circumstances. In chapter 14, when it was a storm and the Lord walked on the water, and He came into the ship with Peter, it says, “when they had gone up into the ship, the wind fell. But those in the ship came and did homage to him, saying, Truly thou art God’s Son” (Matthew 14: 32, 33). That is objective, how the Lord was seen as God’s Son objectively, outside of themselves, but this is not objective, this is a subjective work of God in the soul of a person; that is spiritual and it is open to all of us, and indeed necessary for all of us to come this way. Not that we all claim to get the distinctive and initial matter, as Peter got it, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, but I think we have to come to some understanding with the Father and with the Lord Jesus and the Spirit, that we are convicted, not by what is external, but what God has done within us, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. And then, He says, I am going to build something, and you, Peter, are going to be in that building. It is not that Peter is the rock on which He will build the assembly, it is the confession, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, on that confession the Lord is going to build His assembly. That is important, particularly on account of teaching that goes around in Christendom.

But we have to come to it that we are material, the Lord has formed us as material; Peter was a stone. And then, I was affected in reading verse 21, “From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples that he must go away to Jerusalem, and suffer”. In chapter 16 He is to be delivered into the hands of the elders and the chief priests; in chapter 17 He is to be delivered into the hands of men. I thought Isaiah would help to affect us in our affections, just to tarry a little in this reading on the subject of Christ, before we come to consider the matter, that in some sense is a kind of climax to the thoughts we have had, as to the two persons, or three persons, gathered together to the name of the Lord Jesus. I think before we come to that we will immerse ourselves for some time in the consideration of what it meant to the Lord to be delivered into the hands of the elders and the chief priests, and into the hands of men. Isaiah 50 brings that out in the most touching way. I only read a few verses to bring out the conciseness and the specificity of the matter; and then chapter 53 is another matter, bringing out in the main the atoning sufferings that should affect us. So that when we come to our little gatherings, two or three gathered together to the name of the Lord Jesus, the basis for it all has been the sufferings of Christ. These are the thoughts I had in mind.

JS I wondered if you would say a little more as to what you have in mind about the sufferings of Christ in this connection.’

JDG Well, it seems to be that when the revelation comes out from the Father, when the Lord indicates He is about to build His assembly, coming into His mind, that from that time He began to show, that is manifested to the disciples He must go away to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and the chief priests, be killed, and then the third day be raised again. All their hopes were to be pinned on a Man that was going through death, coming out of death. This wonderful matter, this wonderful structure could not take place until after His atoning work. Would that be right?

JS Yes, quite so. It involved His going through these sufferings. And then His atoning sufferings in order that there should be a basis laid for the securing of material for the assembly, and the building of the assembly.

JDG That is right. I thought maybe we would just tarry for a moment on the subject of the revelation. I would like to ask a question; When the gospel is preached to you, it is preached on the principle of faith to faith; when the believer is converted and progressing in the truth, is that when we come into the area where revelation takes place? I am asking that question.

JAG They are hardly out of Egypt when the principle of revelation appears. Jehovah showed Moses wood, that is the principle of revelation. You are saying that once we are converted we begin to get impressions; I suppose that is how it works out in our souls, and growth comes about, it comes about as we realise that we are having something from God.

JDG That is what I thought. The gospel comes to us on the principle of faith to faith; you are affected by it; repentance towards God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Once the vessel is secured, as Peter was secured, there is a work of God there, because it was so in Peter. He is named ‘stone’ which involves the work of God, which involves he is a suitable person to be built into the structure of the assembly. He lays hold of that himself in his epistle, speaking about living stones. Christ is the living stone and then the living stones coming to Him for a spiritual house. So he lays hold of that, but the Father is able to operate in relation to imparting to us impressions of His Christ. That is not exclusive to Peter; that is the portion, or should be the portion of all of us.

JM Did you remark that revelation requires a state in the person for the reception of it? Could you say something about that?

JDG For us, we would be persons who have received the Holy Spirit. Peter was not actually here, but in character he would take that place; in that character we can view him. I know he did not actually have the Spirit, we are in the gospel, but in character he would be a person who has the Spirit and who is making room in his soul for the operations of the Holy Spirit. So that there is a state there that is equal to receiving communications, divine communications. Would that be right, would you go with that?

JM Yes, I understand so, that revelation is personal, and really requires a state, and if declaration is general it does not matter if there is a state or not, it is there. But when you come to revelation it really involves divine operations already in the vessel to whom the revelation is made. So that there is no failure with the revelation.

JDG That is good. I am glad you remark these things, we appreciate it. Revelation is the normal way God communicates with a saint who is in touch with Himself, in a living system; Christ is the Son of the living God, what He builds is a living house, a living assembly, composed of persons who are viewed as coming to Him. I agree with what you say, the living stones coming to Christ would involve a state in which they are attracted to that blessed Man.

JM Could I ask another thing, because I have heard questions asked about it, What do you understand is the foundation here? On this rock, what do you understand the rock is?

JDG Well, I was saying that the rock is Christ. We will read it, verse 18, “And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly”. The rock on which He is going to build His assembly is not Peter, but Peter’s confession, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”; that is the foundation on which it is going to be built. It is not built on Peter, that is wrong, it is built on Christ. Is that right?

JM I have understood what you said earlier that the rock is really Peter’s confession. It is that on which the building is; it certainly is not Peter personally, but it is the confession that he makes, and that comes as a result of the revelation.

JDG And that confession is, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”; everything is built on that blessed Man, but it is after He goes through death and resurrection that the building begins. The building is not beginning here, but it is in mind to begin. Brethren will need to keep us right in these things.

JAG Would desiring earnestly the pure mental milk of the word provide the state, or make way for the state, and coming to Him is characteristic, and then you are built up yourselves living stones (1 Peter 2: 2–5)?

JDG That is right. So we would encourage us all, and the younger men and women, to reach a measure of maturity to seek to be persons who know something about it. It is not to make us unnatural, but spirituality and what is natural according to the flesh and blood condition in nature does not conflict, where room is made for what is spiritual. It could conflict if we get overawed by it, and did not make room for what is spiritual.

WL Is there anything apart from being born anew?

JDG Well, I suppose the answer to that is no. There is nothing apart from being born anew, but this goes further than that as you would understand.

WL I appreciate that, but we must have that sovereign action of the Spirit before we can progress to this.

JDG Yes. The sovereignty of God in new birth is His matter, although it says that ye must be born anew, as if to exercise a person, but the sovereignty of God in new birth is His matter. But when it comes to conversion and the confirmation that I have in myself that I have trusted Christ as Saviour and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, I have answered in responsibility from my side, but then my life as a believer after that, as having these wonderful gifts, is to be exercised to make way for what is spiritual in my soul, over against what is fleshly or natural, keeping the natural in its place, because natural is not wrong, fleshly is wrong. Is that right?

WL It certainly is, and God acts in this way, revelation is a sovereign matter too, is it not?

JDG Yes, sovereign but we can put ourselves in the way of it. Would you agree with that?

WL Undoubtedly.

DBR Would it bring out the importance of what we touched on in an earlier reading as to secret experience with God, and we might say, waiting in His presence?

JDG That is good. Now, would you say that we have learned the Father first of all in Matthew 6, “enter into thy chamber, and ... pray to thy Father ... and thy Father who sees in secret will render it to thee”, Matthew 6: 6? Maybe the first operations of my heart speaking to the Father might be

in relation to my needs and things here below that burden me, but do you not think as we progress we find the Father is a Person who is prepared to let us know something of His side of things?

DBR That is what I thought. It is a very precious thing to have to do with God about our needs and He never disappoints us, but it is a greater thing to enter into the presence of God and perhaps share some secret with Him. Do you think that?

JDG Yes, I thought what you are drawing out is a progression of the line of the Lord’s teaching that He began by teaching that to enter into thy chamber and speak to thy Father. Now He is looking to the Father to be able to communicate something by revelation to us, because we have got the gain of His teaching, and there is a state with us now, by the Spirit that is equal to going into the presence of God, and, like Moses, instead of speaking to God He speaks to us.

DBR That is really how the subjective work in our souls is established. It is not established perhaps through much reading, although I am not deprecating reading, but I think we need to be persons who frequent the presence of God. Would you say that?

JDG Yes, and find that there is something communicated to you and becomes part of you, so that it can be said you are stone in this setting, not hardened stone according to flesh, not that line at all, it is another form of things, divine workmanship.

MGW Would that agree with what we have in Isaiah 50; would Peter appear to have received the tongue of the instructed, someone whose ear had been wakened morning by morning, “he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed”, and so on?

JDG Well, that is Christ particularly, but the believer who is formed after Christ has that kind of ear.

HP Is knowing grace one of the things we are in need of?

JDG Well, grace has a great formative power in the soul of a believer; we all have received, John says, grace upon grace; what a flood of grace comes into the soul to form us after the One who was here; grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ. What a feature comes out in the believer after that blessed Man.

JS Do you think it is progress to see Christ in this way as the One who has something that He is building, My assembly, something that is so precious to Himself, and He wants to incorporate us in that?

JDG That is right. I think I recall coming across something like this, that the Lord had no home here, but He builds His assembly, a place He can come to where He finds a home. That is a wonderful matter that He comes among persons (the assembly is built of persons), a certain kind of person, persons who are the subject of revelation from the Father. They have a link that is within, according to the work of God within them, absolutely convicted on account of God’s operations within.

PJH As the question in Lamentations, “Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by?” (Lamentations 1: 12), it is a continual thing that comes before us as we go through life, evoking greater replies to that question, as we contemplate the cost to the Lord and His desires.

JDG Well, we will come on to that in a minute, it is in our hearts to look into it, but this structure here, it has been said by another, if love had not failed the devil would not have got an inch to overthrow even what was public.

RT Would you say something about the impregnability of this building? In the day when there is much under attack it would stabilise our souls, would it? Hades’ gates, the whole organised power of the devil is against it, but yet the building is still going on.

JDG The whole administration of hell was against it, hades’ gates involve an administration, and it has been prevalent throughout the dispensation to overthrow what Christ has in mind. But it goes through in impregnability, strengthened by divine Persons but secured in saints who are held by the Spirit of God’s power in relation to Christ’s own thoughts about the assembly. There is a need to lay hold of the truth of the assembly and all that it meant to Christ. It will go through, it will not be overthrown and that involves it is not overthrown in persons’ souls.

JAG The Lord can trust these persons, would you say? Peter was trustworthy here, he gets something, he gets keys, and there is another administration continuing in the face of Satanic administration.

JDG Yes. The truth of the church has been held precious in the souls of believers, it will be so until the Lord comes, inviolate, it will not be overthrown, it is the work of God. It says in another scripture, “greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.”, 1 John 4: 4.

JAG These persons have power with God in chapter 18, whatever they ask comes to them.

JDG Yes, that is true.

RT It is not going to fail, it is going to be raptured.

JDG That is right, that is good.

AM Would you open up the title “the Christ” in this connection?

JDG Well, I suppose it is God’s anointed, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” that is God’s anointed. Another has said He is the great divine operator, doing things for God. He is the Son of the living God, that is new. “Thou art the Christ” may have been known to Peter as the Jewish side of the Messiah, but “Son of the living God” is new. There is something revealed as to His person here. We have been speaking about certain matters that have not been revealed as to the person of the Son, but here is something revealed about Him and He is going to operate and build a structure; we have to be intelligent about that, but it is assured, because it is the work of God. The devil will try to overthrow it; hades’ gates is a real matter here, the administration of evil in this world is a real matter, if it could it would destroy every feature of the assembly. You know, dear brethren, matters in this country at the moment are not exactly against men and women, it is against the truth of the church, it is an attempt to wipe out any reference to Christ in Christendom.

JW I would like to enquire as to what is involved in being built into the assembly. Do you think it is more than receiving the Spirit and belonging to the assembly?

JDG Well, it is building a structure that is according to the divine pattern; “I will build my assembly”, we know the Spirit’s operations in relation to it but from this point of view it is Christ’s own work, “I will build my assembly”; He is building according to the pattern, it will shine finally in the day of display, a city that will shine there with its gates and its pearls and administration, it will have an influence on the whole world.

JMar Would this have any relation to Genesis chapter 2, it refers to the rib being taken from the man, built into the woman, and then it goes on, “This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh—this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man”, Genesis 2: 23?

JDG Well, I think this is a little different, this building is built of stones that come to Christ; they are persons coming to Christ. What you have in Genesis is the entity, what the assembly is as a vessel or a person, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”, Ephesians 5: 32. It is a personality.

JW There are many believers who belong to the assembly but really have not the light as to it. You could hardly say they were built into it, could you? While they belong to it, I wondered if you could help us more as to the thought of being built into it in that way?

JDG If I understand the truth, I think what you have said is right, that there are believers who belong to Christ, they belong to the assembly in an abstract way, or in a sense in an actual way, but they have little light of it. I understand in order to come to an appreciation of your place in the structure you have to come through the principle of revelation, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. I understand that from ministry and teaching, that every believer should come to that in some way; that they receive from the Father or the Lord Jesus an understanding to the fact that He is building them into His building.

JM Does “the Son of the living God” really involve that there is a living system, and you would almost think it is superfluous because God cannot be anything other than living? He has put that there to stress that what is being built is a real living system.

JDG Yes, that is how I understand it. That is why Peter’s epistles are helpful to us, because there is the living stone that is Christ, and there are living stones who come to Him, built up a spiritual house, a spiritual habitation. So that, over against all the deadness that has gone before in the history of the Old Testament in relation to the literality of it, here is a new thing being brought in and it is being built by Christ, and it is being built of certain persons of certain character that belong to Him as stone, but the whole thing is pervaded by love.

HP Mr. James Taylor speaks of it, if I remember rightly, as needing a second conversion.

JDG Well, I have not heard that but it is very good, needing a second conversion.

HP I think it is really something additional to new birth and having faith in the Saviour, but having to do with the Lord in relation to these things in personal deep exercises.

JDG I think you are absolutely right; conversion initially is the beginning of the Christian path for us. The operation of God in sovereignty in new birth was His matter, but when we come to Christ as our Saviour that is the beginning of the Christian path. Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is another matter; it is really Christ’s disposition to give us it, or God’s disposition to give us it. That is not the end of the Christian path either, we come on to understand that the whole area of Christianity is living; it is not a liturgy, it is not a creed (that is maybe right in some ways); it is a living system and a living God. Communications come day by day, opening our ear morning by morning. He is prepared to communicate to us as He is in this reading and opening up our understanding and laying something on our hearts.

HP Mr. James Taylor refers to this in relation to men, I think it is in Mark, the blind man who got the second touch (Mark 8: 22–26).

JDG It is a good thing to get a second touch to see all things clearly.

RG We preach the gospel, and we preach a full gospel as we say, and we bring in the gift of the Holy Spirit, but Mr. James Taylor said there are many persons out there who have the gift of the Holy Spirit but that gift may be grieved. But the next step should be a personal link through the Spirit with the Lord, so that there might be fresh impressions granted to us by revelation, do you think?

JDG That is right. That is the truth of Corinthians, “he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit”, 1 Corinthians 6: 17. You have a direct link with the Lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit. You had a link with the Lord Jesus by faith when you came to Him as your Saviour, but you received the Spirit, it is in view of communication. You get that in Acts 16, where it says, “having passed through Phrygia and the Galatian country, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia, having come down to Mysia, they attempted to go to Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them; and having passed by Mysia they descended to Troas. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night—There was a certain Macedonian man, standing and beseeching him, and saying, Pass over into Macedonia and help us” Acts 16: 6–9. And then it says, “immediately we sought to go forth to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to announce to them the glad tidings” (Acts 16: 10). It shows you how the Spirit comes into matters. Then again in Acts 13 when they were gathered together in the assembly, the Spirit of God speaks, “And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said. Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them”, Acts 13: 2. Both scriptures confirm the fact that the structure is living; the assembly is a living structure where divine operations and divine communications can take place, with the persons who belong to it and who are intelligently in it, who are making way for the Spirit of God in their lives.

JAG Does the building of necessity involve the Lord’s headship, because there must be impartation if there is going to be a building?

JDG Yes, I would say that.

JAG There is the Supper and the meetings that follow it during the week, they are vital to this building.

JDG I would say so. Maybe we will come on to that when we come to Matthew 18.

JTB(Ed) Does David building round about from the Millo and inward enter into this? It is something built constitutionally into the soul of the believer, do you think? David dwelt there in the stronghold, there was no place for the lame and the blind, it was whole men, really men developed in their knowledge of God, do you think? Of David typically.

JDG The Jebusite who had held that territory for so long was completely overthrown by the might of David.

JTB(Ed) It is there that the king and his men came to Jerusalem. Is it the thought of maturity that really develops in us a sense of our place in the structure?

JDG That is good. So you come in relation to David, and what we were is one thing, but what we become is another thing, become mighty men, come into his cabinet you might say. Would that be right?

JMcK Peter says in his second epistle, “in your faith have also virtue”, 2 Peter 1: 5. Mr. Darby says that is moral courage—that would link with this, would it?

JDG It certainly would, it is a feature that is needed because hades’ gates are seeking to prevail against the assembly, so moral courage in the believer is a feature that would stand in good stead to thwart the attempts of the devil to overthrow in my soul the precious truth of the assembly.

MM Is there any link with the impregnability that you have referred to and the showing forth of the Lord’s death until He come in the Supper?

JDG Yes, it would be a rallying point for a saint, would it not? Rallying point is for us in relation to the king, as our brother referred to the king and his men, a rallying point for the affections.

Perhaps we could come on to Isaiah for a short time to consider the two references along with Matthew. In Matthew 16: 21, He is to be committed into the hands of the elders and the chief priests. In chapter 17 He is to be committed into the hands of men and the disciples were greatly grieved. So I thought, particularly for younger persons, to understand the feelings of the Lord Jesus, what He exposed Himself to. Chapter 50 gives us His martyr sufferings, to be affected by them before we come to speak about our present matters. It says of the Lord Jesus in verse 5, “The Lord Jehovah hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious”. I think that is seen in Gethsemane, “I was not rebellious; I turned not away back”. The other matters are His martyr sufferings, He gave Himself over into the hands of men. But I think we should be affected by the fact that His ear was opened and He was not rebellious and turned not away back. What an hour for Him, it was not the hour of His atoning sufferings, but it was the hour when the obedience of the Christ was seen; He says, “My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me; but not as I will, but as thou wilt”, Matthew.26: 39. Absolute committal to the divine will.

DBR “He wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed”. I came across a beautiful touch by Mr. Taylor where he spoke about God whispering into the ears of Jesus. It brings out the sensibilities and sensitivities of this holy Man, and we accept that is a pattern for us, some word of God for us?

JDG The sensitivity of the ear in the quietness of the moment in the morning, before many matters take up our attention through the day, whether we are retired or whether we are working—There are matters come into your mind, but to be touched in the morning in its quietness by what God would have to say to you for the day brings us through each day.

JSp Would that bear on the verse immediately after, “He is near that justifieth me”? I was thinking of what it says in Timothy that He is justified in the Spirit.

JDG Yes, that is right. We did not read that but it is very precious that “He is near that justifieth me—who will contend with me?” Perhaps you could say a bit more about your thoughts as to the verse in Timothy, justified in the Spirit.

JSp It is obviously a direct reference to Christ. In principle we should know something of that, should we not? There is no outward justification, we have to wait for that, but an inward knowledge that we are here pleasing to the Father should be a believer’s normal portion, do you think?

JDG Do you not think that would be there as we share a place in the structure, in the assembly, having received from Christ personally some appreciation of the way He would have us to be. This passage in Isaiah 50, just to touch on the fact that He was not rebellious, turned not away back. We see that peculiarly in Gethsemane; then giving His back to the smiters, what He endured at the hands of the elders and the chief priests, and at the hands of men, hands of the nation. Then in Isaiah 53 I thought we should ponder the fact that the Lord Jesus, if we were going to have the privilege of coming into this structure that is built after His death and resurrection, coming down to our own time seen in Matthew 18, there has to be a sincere and deep appreciation of what it cost Christ. “Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath subjected him to suffering. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin”. These are deep matters, dear brethren; it should sober us as we handle the truth in our places, that the basis of it all was these sufferings of Christ, particularly the atoning sufferings, also His martyr sufferings, but particularly His atoning sufferings. Then it says, “by his knowledge shall my righteous servant instruct many in righteousness”. I was linking that with the twos and threes meeting together; we are in an area where “my righteous servant shall instruct many in righteousness”. There is an interesting note for all of us, particularly younger men and women, lit. ‘the many’, i.e. those that are in relationship with him’. There is no one condemned or damned by predestination, so the gospel is available to all; so as we come to Christ and establish a relationship with Him we come in for all the blessings that He has for all men. “I will assign him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong”. The Lord has these persons, we come into the matter of David’s spoil, what Christ secures for Himself out of His death.

NJH Speaking of the sufferings of Christ would that enter into the communion that He enjoyed with His Father as He went over what was contained in that day He would go through?

JDG You mean when He spoke to His Father in Gethsemane. What a holy conversation took place in Gethsemane; Christ falling to the ground it says, there was evidence seen in His human frame of the intensity of His sufferings, what that frame anticipated. Well, how are we going to be persons who handle divine things?

RG I was going to ask if the sufferings of Christ are what were involved in what it says of the Hebrew bondman, “I love my master, my wife, and my children, I will not go free”, Exodus 21: 5.

JDG Yes, it is an all-inclusive love, service springing from His love for each one. Well, He has secured us. I thought to refer to these two scriptures in Isaiah just to sober us in our thoughts and affections before we consider Matthew 18.

WL Is it significant that evidence of the gates of hades at work in the early error as to the sufferings of Christ that Mr Darby had to meet?

JDG Yes, we are very thankful for clarification by men who were more able than ourselves to show us what is right and wrong, but what comes in in hades’ gates might attempt to seduce us and lead us away from Christ. John’s epistles were particularly concerned with attempts by hades’ gates to disestablish and lead souls away.

Well we should go on to Matthew 18. I would like to get the brethren’s help on this. The Lord Jesus is speaking in Matthew 18, through the whole of the chapter as far as I understand it, speaking about the kind of spirit that marks the believer who is an assembly person, and that in the day in which the assembly was normal. As far as I understand, up till the end of verse 18, there is normality of assembly function. Mr. James Taylor says, just for the help of the younger men and women, chapter 5 of Matthew is legislation mainly for the remnant, but it also has application to the Christian. Chapter 18 is the law that governs matters in the assembly. That is where we go for help mainly. Chapters 5, 6 and 7 have a bearing on us, we have been speaking about it, but it is mainly for the remnant. I do not think the remnant will look to chapter 18 of Matthew’s gospel in a day to come, that is the scripture for us. But then we come down to “Again I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens. For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”. Think of the Lord Jesus coming down in His foreknowledge to speak about our own day. Long before Paul’s ministry was brought out, where Paul says that in the great house there are certain matters to purify yourself by separating. Here the Lord Jesus says in anticipating that day, that the preciousness of the assembly, the assembly in function, can be experienced in the day of two or three, because “there am I in the midst of them”. What kind of manhood, and have we got the kind of manhood that would attract Christ to say, I am in the midst of you?

JM “Again I say to you, that if two of you”, is that really two assembly persons?

JDG Well, I have to ask you the question, What is an assembly person?

JM I think it would be a person who holds in his affections, and in his practical walk all that is proper to the assembly, even in a day of breakdown. So that while we cannot claim to be the assembly, the assembly characteristically is in operation, is it not?

JDG That is not because we belong to a certain named sect.

JM No, not at all, that is a moral work, a spiritual work in the souls of persons.

JDG That is what I think. I do not think we should assume because we walk together and belong to a named sect that this is true of all our gatherings. We should be exercised to be such persons that it is true. If the Lord tarry the assembly’s history here is going to continue; it is going to continue on the basis of two or three gathered together to the Lord’s name. We experience the Lord coming to us, I say that in humility, but there must be conditions with us.

GBG I am sure what you say is right, so we just cannot take this for granted. It has been said it is a consequence of these conditions being provided, not exactly a promise, but a consequence.

JDG We want to instruct the younger persons coming on, persons who are coming into responsibility, and those of us who are in responsibility, to see to it that we are this kind of person, see to ourselves. We were speaking about humanity and manhood in the Lord’s ministry; well it seems to me if we get the gain of this line of teaching we will be this kind of person, committed to the light of the assembly and practice. It is not just to hold the doctrine of the assembly; I might hold the doctrine of the assembly and not be in the practice of it; could hold the doctrine of the assembly and be in a monastery but that is not where I can practise it. It is not enough to see our father and mother in this thing, we want everyone to be in it. It is a certain character of manhood that lays itself out for the interests of Christ here, paramount in their affections, the Supper means something to them, they are loyal to that blessed Man who comes to them. They are prepared to be apart from the world, apart from anything that pertains to the world, all its associations and partnerships, to be for Christ and Christ alone, committed to supporting the gatherings, not because it is a legal matter but because it is precious to Christ.

JM There is a very fine touch in the ministry of Mr. James Taylor where he says that every time we put our hands to the loaf in the Supper we commit ourselves to a covenant with God, that we will walk in the practice of the assembly in its totality even though we are in the days of breakdown. The matter of putting your hand to the loaf entering into a covenant is something that was new to me, but I think it is very beautiful.

JDG I have not read that and very much appreciate you brought it in, because it removes from the celebration of the Supper any casualness about taking the loaf. We pass that loaf one to another; I think that is very fine, you are entering into a covenant in taking that bread, or a portion of it, participating in the eating of it.

JS The word to Timothy would come into this, in regard of two of you “pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart”, 2 Timothy 2: 22. There is not only the separation but there is actual pursuit of these features which came out in Christ Himself.

JDG Yes, I think that shows how we are held together in righteousness. Well, we began in Matthew chapter 3, fulfil all righteousness, then faith, love and peace. I cannot see how the Lord can come to any company where there is characteristically hatred, no matter what light they have. I think the Lord comes to where love is; I am not saying there can be little spats arise, where self-judgment comes in and matters can be clarified. I am speaking of what is characteristic, the Lord comes, “here am I in the midst of them”. There is appreciation of one another. I think this is a most important matter.

RT “Gathered together unto my name” seems to be the regulating feature, would you say something about that?

JDG Well, that is true, I would like to hear what you say about it. It must be that all that is done is to the honour of the name of Christ, so there is no disrespect brought on the name of the Lord Jesus by the company with whom I am participating in the breaking of bread, and with myself in particular. Corinthians shows you proceed to the Supper on the basis of your own self-judgment, and consider that others who are there have also entered into that covenant with God as to self-judgment. Would that be right?

RT It is not only separation, that is underlying it, but “unto my name” is an objective, it is what governs the conversation in the meeting. I was thinking of Philippians 2,

“let this mind be in you” (Philippians 2: 5); there is something that dominates the gathering, that Name.

JDG “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus”. Mr Darby says, ‘O lowliness, how feebly known’; it is a wonderful state to be there, in accord with the One who is coming in. Others can help us as to the matter of the Name.

DBR I appreciate what is being said, because I feel that certain matters might become a little grey, particularly perhaps as to associations, we need to be clear of that. One touch I have appreciated in Mr Taylor’s ministry as to the Name, he said ‘These are persons who have gathered together by motive’. That is, your motives are pure, they are centred in Christ. Another feature I wondered about, “unto my name” is that we are absolutely dependent upon Him. He says “in the midst of them”; that would be a dependent circle, do you think? We cannot do without Christ, so we would keep everything clear that Christ might have free way with us, do you think?

JDG Yes. It is a great encouragement to have some appreciation of the Lord coming amongst us, making Himself known to us. I refer to the occasion of privilege, because it is some indication from Him, although matters might not altogether be wholly in accord with Him, He is prepared to identify Himself with us because of what is real there, and desire there and earnestness there and love there.

DBR It is really the present reward that we have in seeking to be faithful to Him, do you think? He is the reward, He personally is the reward.

JDG Without Christ we have nothing. Mary of Magdala, on the resurrection morning, what did she have?—Bereft of everything if she did not have Christ.

JAG I understand that the characteristics of the Name are to be found amongst the brethren. If we are to read the Name amongst the brethren, we should be able to, because the Name is the character of the Person. If I say a person’s name, I think about him and his characteristics. The name of Jesus makes you think about Him and all the beautiful features about Him, and that is expressed in the brethren, and He can come to that. It is basic to Christianity.

JDG Yes, everything is done; gathered to the Name involves His absence; the Lord is absent, but then all that is there in that company represents Him completely, expressed in one and another.

RT The Lord seemed to appreciate Philadelphia, did He not? “Hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name” (Revelation 3: 8), it infers that they kept it.

JDG Yes, “kept my word and hast not denied my name”, there was nothing disrespectful in them, in their gathering, or in the persons, that would bring a blot on the precious name of Christ. Well, that is what we have to be in our lives, walk is practical, that we walk in such-wise that something is in accord with that blessed Name, with the truth, as it has been opened up to us.

JS It says; “there am I in the midst of them”. Do you think that means that He is central, He has really the chief place?

JDG Yes, it is in relation to a company is it not? “In the midst of them”, crowned in the midst of His brethren, He finds delight. Who distinguishes this company, this two or three? It is Christ that distinguishes it. Who says it is an honour to us? It is Christ that says that, “there am I in the midst of them”, that is the whole confirmatory matter. The Lord chooses to identify with a company, not us, is that right?

JS So there are these persons, “in the midst of them”, that would be the persons, and you have the One who is in the midst. It is a company where Christ has acquired this central place.

RT Referring to Corinthian conditions, an unbeliever coming in saying “God is indeed amongst you” (1 Corinthians 15: 25), he sees something in the conduct, the way the brethren are gathered together, and the way they appreciate one another, that God is there.

JDG I am glad you bring that in, because it extends the matter into the working out of the exercises in the place in the week. Not just exclusive to the Lord’s supper, it is precious there, but it is a committal to the saints in the wilderness setting too, with all the exercises that are there.

As long as we are exercised about them; someone remarked that Mr Darby said that he would not leave a place for evil, but he would leave a place where evil was not taken up and dealt with.

WL I wondered if this was a lesson that Saul of Tarsus had to learn. There was absolutely no doubt about the thoroughness of his conversion, but the Lord says, Go into the city and you will find there something that represents Me.

JDG Yes, I think that is right, and he came away with something in his soul, he preached Jesus as the Son of God. He came quickly into the light of what the assembly was as a construction of divine workmanship. I think what has been said as to the Supper should be paid attention to, and as our brother has brought out the matter in the Corinthian setting, a man coming in and saying, “God is indeed amongst you”, 1 Corinthians 14: 25. But that involves state with us, and that is what is in mind, that there is a practical answer to the truth in our lives and in our souls, and the appreciation of what proceeds of assembly character in the place, to be identified with it. Maybe we cannot be there at all the gatherings, but it is a committal to be there; businesses are arranged as far as is possible to be present; not by legislation but because “there am I in the midst of them”.

4th Reading at Dundee
13 August 2005

KEY TO INITIALS

J. T. Brown (Ed.)

W. Lamont

D. B. Robertson

J. A. Gardiner

J. McKay

J. Spinks

R. Gardiner

A. Mair

J. Strachan

G. B. Grant

J. Marshall

R. Taylor

J. D. Gray

M. Matthews

J. Wright

N. J. Henry

J. Mitchell

M. G. Wood

P. J. Herbert

H. Pfeiffer