THE ASSEMBLY AS THE GREAT INTEREST OF GOD ON THE EARTH

These two readings, and the following address, were at three-day meetings in Sheffield, held on a Saturday, Lord’s day and Monday, 20^th-22^nd April 1957—only the notes of these three meetings on the Monday are available.

Reading 4

Judges 8: 1-17; 9: 6-15; 11: 12-27.

A.J.G.      We need to keep in mind what we started with on Saturday afternoon, that is that the assembly is the great interest of God on the earth, as typified in Achsah in chapter 1 of this book, and that all the efforts of the enemy in opposition to the truth, whatever form they take in detail, are directed against the practical expression of the truth of the assembly in its true characteristics in our several localities. The local position is of the greatest importance, because it is there that the truth is worked out, worked out actually, and in the presence of the surrounding conditions that obtain in the world, and there is perhaps nothing more important than that, that there should be an answer to divine thoughts in every place where the name of the Lord is truly honoured, the conditions suitable to it being maintained. And so, whatever be the particular feature of opposition to the truth which from time to time has to be overcome, it is well to bear in mind that what is at issue is the truth of the assembly. There may be the danger, in entering into conflict against some particular feature of opposition, of losing sight of other features of the truth, but we were remarking on Saturday afternoon that the truth of the assembly involves what is heavenly in character, heavenly in origin indeed, and heavenly in destiny, the second Man out of heaven giving character to the manhood that is to be seen in the assembly, and the Spirit of God being the only power for things to be actually worked out. And therefore Christ and the Spirit are to be constantly before us.

Now these scriptures we have read this morning I think may show that in different conflicts there may be the danger of certain features entering in that are not according to the truth of the assembly; or on the other hand, the conflict becomes occasion for the confirmation of particular features of the truth. And then another thing that enters into the passages we have read, especially this chapter 8, is how the government of God operates in relation to localities, as to how far they have supported the truth, and entered into the conflict for the moment or not. We already had that on Saturday evening, in relation to the song of Barak. It comes in again in this chapter 8 in relation to these two places of Succoth and Penuel. First of all, what we come to in the beginning of chapter 8 is the danger of personal feeling entering in where there has been conflict, and in this instance Gideon meets it in the spirit of Christ, so that the position is held. Later on we find (we did not read it, because we could not read everything) that the same men of Ephraim, (in the beginning of chapter 12), are marked by the same spirit, still occupied with their own importance, and Jephthah does not meet it in the Spirit of Christ. So that there fell at that time of Ephraim forty-two thousand, which is a very sorrowful matter, although there may have been an element of divine government in that. But these chapters in Judges show the kind of thing that is working from time to time among the saints as exercised to maintain the truth; and the need that we should always keep in mind, what are the distinctive features of the assembly, that is, it is the fulness of Christ, and Christ is to be seen in it. Hence the beginning of this eighth chapter is encouraging because it shows how morally great Gideon was, that he is prepared to take a low place in the presence of this spirit that shows itself in the men of Ephraim, and by doing so, the position is saved.

E.J.B.      Is Gideon’s spiritual quality seen in the way in which, although there is reduction for those actually in the conflict, he brings the men of Israel in as soon as possible, in chapter 7: 23, and then the way in which he conciliates the men of Ephraim in chapter 8?

A.J.G.      Yes I think so. He is concerned that the enemy should not be allowed to drive a wedge in, so to speak, amongst God’s people. So that, although he has to accept the severe exercise of very drastic reduction, at the end he finishes up with more than he had at the beginning. “The men of Israel were called together out of Naphtali, and out of Asher, and out of all Manasseh, and pursued after Midian”.

B.S.      Do you mean that this should always be met in the spirit of Christ?

A.J.G.      We have got to be watchful, because if the enemy is defeated in one way, he will return to the attack in another. The gates of hades are opposed to us all the time. Therefore there is need for constant vigilance, and the maintenance in our souls that the assembly is of Christ, and therefore nothing that is not of Christ properly has place there.

L.V.V.      You referred to the Corinthian epistle. I was thinking of Paul beseeching them by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ.

A.J.G.      Yes exactly. And where the spirit of Christ is in evidence, the Spirit of God will support those in whom it is in evidence, and the spiritual will rally to it. We can always rely on that, that the work of God in the saints will, in the long run, rally to what is of Christ.

A.S.      Might there be in that way unnecessary losses otherwise, do you think?

A.J.G.      Yes I do think that. I think it is clear that the later incident, where Jephthah is met with this same spirit from these same people, the men of Ephraim, but meets it in a very different way, shows that, that they lost forty-thousand. No doubt it was governmental from another point of view, seeing that the men of Ephraim had not judged themselves, that they should suffer serious losses. But still, it could have been averted. And there is much that goes on amongst us from time to time, and serious losses, and it may be that, going back over them, you might feel that perhaps it could have been averted sometimes. And yet at the same time, there is what is governmental on God’s part operating in it.

R.H.      Is it important that the men of Ephraim are given credit for what they have done?

A.J.G.      Yes exactly. “Into your hands hath God delivered the princes of Midian”. He is turning their thoughts to God, they are given credit, as you say, for the fact that they have taken these two princes, but Gideon wisely turns their thoughts to God.

J.T.S.      Would Abigail be one in whom there was the expression of the Spirit of Christ?

A.J.G.      Yes I think so, very definitely. Have you something specially in mind?

J.T.S.      Only the way that she would speak to David in view of preserving what might be preserved.

A.J.G.      Quite so. And she was coming down, was she not, when David met her? He was coming down, too, and she was coming down. And the spirit in Abigail was entirely in keeping with the assembly; it really corresponded with Christ, because her one desire was to wash the feet of the servants of her lord. She was prepared to be a bondmaid with that service in view.

D.W.G.      Does not that bring us back to what you said earlier, that whereas we may have to take up the conflict against certain enemies, yet we should always have in mind that it is for the assembly, and the assembly cannot be divided, and it must not be divided as we hold the truth of it?

A.J.G.      I am sure that is important. And I think it helps to see that it is hades’ gates that are opposed to the assembly; that is to say it is not primarily particular men, or particular brothers. They may, unhappily, be instruments in the enemy’s hands, but the enemy itself is hades’ gates; that is, it is the counsels of evil that are opposing the assembly. It helps to keep that in mind.

H.C.      In 2 Samuel 19, when there was conflict between the men of Judah and the men of Israel, it says (v 43), “And the words of the men of Judah were harsher than the words of the men of Israel”. Then in the next chapter (v l) we get, “And there happened to be there a man of Belial, whose name was Sheba”. Does that show how hades’ gates are operative to take advantage of any dissension?

A.J.G.      Exactly. Someone was there whom Satan could use to cause further trouble. We have always to keep that in mind, that there are always those available whom Satan can use if any occasion is given. And hence we need to be constantly on our guard.

A.B.      Was that seen when Doeg was there that day?

A.J.G.      Detained before the Lord. God was in the matter, although he was a wicked man.

W.J.T.      According to Psalm 83: 12, where it says, “For they have said, Let us take to ourselves God’s dwelling-places in possession”. That supports what you were saying as to the enemy’s attack on God’s dwelling-place. It is the assembly, is it not, in its local setting?

A.J.G.      Quite so. That is a remarkable psalm, no doubt, looking forward dispensationally to the coming day, when the enemies of Israel will gather round them; and they refer to these very incidents, “Make their nobles as Oreb and as Zeeb; and all their chiefs as Zebah and as Zalmunna”, v 11. They were all gathered against Israel there. “Let us take to ourselves God’s dwelling-places in possession”. The enemy is always against that, the dwelling-places of God.

K.S.      Gideon says, “What have I done now in comparison with you?” I wondered if he was showing the same spirit as Paul, who says “For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves”. In declining to do that, is he on safe ground?

A.J.G.      Yes quite so.

K.S.      As if they have no right standard of judgment. You were speaking earlier of the importance of the standard of judgment.

A.J.G.      The book of Judges has that in mind, that things should be constantly judged by us, but judged, of course, according to divine standards. So that in that scripture you are referring to, it says (v 17), “But he that boasts, let him boast in the Lord. For not he that commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends”. We have got to keep that in mind all the time. Indeed, in 1 Corinthians 4: 5 it says “So that do not judge anything before the time”—of course that has to be understood in its setting,—“do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord shall come, who shall also bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and shall make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall each have his praise from God”. His praise, that is, whatever praise he is entitled to, everyone in that day will get it from God. And we can afford to leave things till then.

L.W.T.      I would like to ask as to the Lord’s words to his disciples, “he who is not against us is for us”. Should we seek to value any who are in any measure moving on positive lines, and not make enemies of them? I was just thinking of this in relation to the men of Ephraim, as you have said, Gideon could easily have made enemies of them; but he values what they are doing. Should not that spirit mark us?

A.J.G.      Yes indeed. Whatever there was positively of God could be appreciated. On the other hand, in another setting we get “he that is not with us is against us”. And that is really what we come to in this next section; that there are those two cities that are not with Gideon. They are inclined to be contentious, really their attitude is that they are against him, and God takes account of them in that light. If the Spirit of God is emphasising a particular feature of the truth for all the saints who are available, it is very important to be with Him in it in exercise, and not neutral, because, where that is the position, he that is not with us is against us.

-.S.      The Lord says, “he that gathers not with me scatters”.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

-,S.      Do we see the overcomer here, with the three hundred, faint yet pursuing, and he can say, “Therefore when Jehovah delivers Zebah and Zalmunna into my hand”?

A.J.G.      Exactly.

G.E.E.      Would you mind saying a word as to the difference in Gideon’s replies, you have spoken about the spirit of grace, the spirit of Christ, and in relation to these two?

A.J.G.      I think in relation to Succoth and Penuel, he really represents the Lord that is it is a question of the Lord seeking through His servants for support in the conflict. And these two places are exposed as not prepared to give support.

E.M.      Do these conflicts that we are considering together suggest to us the varied subtleties of Satan against the assembly?

A.J.G.      That is exactly what they do suggest. These were places that had a certain name. Succoth and Penuel, I assume that is the same as Peniel, in Genesis, and they both appear in relation to Jacob’s history. So that they were places that, in a sense, had a name. But then, a locality may get a certain reputation, but if we are not living up to it in the energy of the Spirit, as following up what is the truth for the moment, we may eventually find ourselves opposing, or hindering.

J.B.S.      Would you say that in pursuing there is the thought of an extended exercise that has to go on?

A.J.G.      Yes I think so, even although they were faint, they were still pursuing. Because, although the power of Midian had already been completely broken, there were still these two kings and fifteen-thousand men with them; so that the matter had not yet been completed.

L.W.T.      Are you suggesting that it is a matter that we should face in every locality to make it abundantly evident that we are supporting those who are in the conflict for the truth?

A.J.G.      Yes exactly.

R.H.      Would their question in verse 6 suggest that they were waiting on events, to see which way the battle would take? Is it important to have a judgment as to which way God is moving in these matters?

A.J.G.      It is very important that we should see where the Lord is in a matter, and not wait to see the final issue of things.

E.J.B.      Your reference to the chief men of Succoth and the elders, later on, stress the responsibility of those who may lead in a locality, lest they should inject this neutral attitude in regard to the truth into the whole locality.

A.J.G.      I am sure they do. I think we can see that these incidents in Judges are of great importance to us in the practical exercises that go on from time to time.

H.R.A.      The Lord speaks, in entering a village, a local setting—if a son of peace be there. Would a son of peace, in spite of conflict, help to preserve the saints in a locality?

A.J.G.      Quite so. Peace really is what should always be in view, but peace of course, founded on righteousness. All conflict has in mind securing conditions of righteous peace. You do not enter into conflict just for the sake of conflict.

L.C.      Would you say a word in relation to what might be represented in these two kings. They are the ones that Gideon seems to be pursuing at this time. Would they represent any special feature that we are to be aware of?

A.J.G.      I think it answers to the state of things at Corinth. The apostle says “ye have reigned without us”, kings suggest the element of reigning. The Corinthians were, I suppose, occupying a place of popularity to some extent, in the world, “Ye have reigned, without us”, the apostle says. And also they had their princes, they were saying “I am of Paul, and I of Cephas, and I of Apollos”, and so on. Not that it was actually Paul or Apollos that he speaks of, he makes that perfectly clear; it was local leaders that they were boasting in; and they had their princes, and that feature had to be overthrown. And they had their kings. Instead of sharing the reproach of Christ they were reigning. The way to overcome this feature of kings I think is to be wholly committed to the cross, and the reproach that the truth of the cross entails.

J.T.S.      Is there some similarity between the taking the elders of the city, and thorns of the wilderness, and briars, and with them he taught the men of Succoth; and the pursuing after Zebah and Zalmunna with what is said in the Corinthian letter, “and having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled”. I am wondering if teaching the men of Succoth would be to secure obedience in the mass, and then, the dealing with the opposers?

A.J.G.      I think that is right. But it is a serious and challenging matter, especially for any who are in a position of responsibility or eldership in a locality, that the Lord holds them responsible for the conditions in the locality.

E.J.B.      What would giving loaves of bread for the people with Gideon represent in that connection?

A.J.G.      Whatever is needed at the moment; showing that they were genuinely supporting the truth that was in conflict. What would you say?

E.J.B.      Strengthening their hands would it be, “with bread he strengtheneth man’s heart”, Ps 104: 15?

A.J.G.      Yes quite so.

B.S.      Is it of note that the penalty is different? What Gideon says seems to be pretty much the same, and their answer is the same, but the penalty is different. Is that because it called for discernment? Had he discernment as to the state locally, in its application to us; while what is said is pretty much alike, yet what he does is different, is it not?

A.J.G.      Yes. That is very striking. He broke down the tower of Penuel, and slew the men of the city. That is a much more drastic action than teaching the elders with thorns and briars of the wilderness. It evidently shows that there was an entrenched position of opposition there.

B.S.      Which would be something like Corinth, would it?

A.J.G.      Well, it was not broken down at Corinth, was it?

B.S.      I just wondered if you would say a word as to that. What would the tower represent in that way?

A.J.G.      I think an entrenched position, a tower, and it may be that governmentally the testimony in a place ceases altogether through opposition to the truth.

B.S.      I see. That would go the full length of that.

A.J.G.      Yes.

M.S.S.      Would you say what these thorns and briars of the wilderness would mean? It stresses the wilderness.

A.J.G.      I suppose it is God’s discipline coming in in relation to the ordinary circumstances of life.

W.H.S.      Is there a correspondence between Gideon’s action here, and the Lord’s words to the assemblies in the beginning of Revelation?

A.J.G.      I am sure we need continually to keep in mind the second and third chapters of Revelation, because they are intended to be a voice to us all down the ages; as committed to the truth of the assembly we are to bear in mind that the Lord is still walking in the midst of the assemblies.

F.C.E.      Is the spirit of Gideon here still the spirit of Christ? You referred to it earlier; but is this still the spirit of Christ?

A.J.G.      I think it is. When we speak of the spirit of Christ we sometimes tend to confine it in our thoughts to lowliness and meekness and patience, and that line of things, which of course is very important in our relations with one another. But on the other hand, the spirit of Christ also includes the thought of jealousy for what is due to God.

G.E.E.      Is that why lordship enters so much into the first epistle? You alluded to lordship earlier in relation to this second matter. Is that why lordship enters so much into the first epistle? Paul bringing matters to bear upon them in that way?

A.J.G.      Yes, he says “Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?” It speaks of what is powerful and authoritative in the hands of the Lord Jesus.

L.V.V.      Does He not say in the gospel of John “the zeal of thy house devours me”?

A.J.G.      Yes He does. So that while primarily in our relations with one another, when we speak of the spirit of Christ we have in mind lowliness and meekness and that kind of thing; we need to remember that, that the Lord is always jealous for the rights of God. And one who is really in the spirit of Christ will partake of that spirit also.

R.H.      Is it important that in spite of the opposition, or in spite of the weakness, Gideon’s own faith does not waver? He speaks of when Jehovah delivers Zebah and Zalraunna into my hands. What others may think of the position does not affect him in his own personal understanding of what is to take place.

A.J.G.      Exactly, and he is in the faith that God is in the matter, and that there will be victory for the truth.

W.H.S.      And is the secret of that the way that he himself has overcome the thing in principle in secret history with God?

A.J.G.      Yes I think so.

A.K.T.      Do the apostle’s desires for the Philippians enter into this, “stand firm in one spirit, with one soul, labouring together in the same conflict with the faith of the glad tidings”? He had earlier spoken of the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

A.J.G.      Yes, it is striking that he alludes to conflict; although they are to stand in the same spirit and so on; they are to watch their relations with one another; but there is always conflict. Wherever you are going on with the truth in any degree of energetic committal to it, there will always be conflict of some sort.

A.C.      Is the righteous indignation, or anger supported; it says in Ephesians, “Be angry, and do not sin; let not the sun go down upon your wrath”. There may be time and conditions for this righteous indignation to show itself, as with Christ, in the cleansing of the temple?

A.J.G.      Well, the Lord operates in that way still from time to time.

H.W.      In Galatians 2: 9 we have the apostle speaking of “James and Cephas and John, who were conspicuous as being pillars”. Then in chapter 2: 11 it says, “But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face”. The truth was involved, and the truth came first with Paul would you say?

A.J.G.      Yes I would indeed. Although Peter was an older man than Paul, and had been in the testimony earlier, before Paul was converted; yet if the truth is in question, Paul will withstand him to the face.

K.S.      At the close of Galatians (chap 6: 16) Paul says, “And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace upon them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God”. “As many”. Does that link with what you were saying as to the spiritual character of our links with one another? Paul has just referred to new creation, that is the rule, is it not? It is as many as walk by this rule.

A.J.G.      Yes, that is the rule there. The rule of new creation as I understand it. He is aware doubtless of the fact that there were such; and he invokes this blessing upon them. Now when we come to chapter 9 we get this sorrowful history of Abimelech; and what marks him is the desire for self-aggrandisement, and the working by means of natural links. So that it is his mother’s brethren who speak of him in the ears of all the citizens of Shechem, and “their heart inclined after Abimelech; for they said, He is our brother”. It is a most baneful thing, one person seeking his own glory, and finding support in natural links. It seems to provide occasion for the truth as to the body to be asserted by Jotham, in this parable. And I believe it is a most important thing that we should carry in our minds the truth of the body; because that is the form that the truth of the assembly takes; it is, so to speak, the economy of the assembly, that is, it is one body, consisting of many members, and each member having his own function to do; but no one member is to be everything, nor is any one member to be nothing. Every member is to be something.

A.E.N.      The one Man to be made prominent is Christ.

A.J.G.      Exactly. And it is a very striking thing that this sorrowful rising up of Abimelech, and finding support in natural links becomes the occasion for Jotham to pronounce this striking parable, which, when it is looked at, is evidently the truth of the body, with the particular functions of each member that God has fitted each member for in actual operation.

M.S.S.      Is that why Abimelech is said to have ruled over Israel—not judged, but ruled?

A.J.G.      Exactly. They made him king. He is something like Adonijah, who said, “I will be king”. Although he knew quite will that God had said that Solomon should be king.

C.H.T.      Does the question of natural links include special friendships amongst the brethren?

A.J.G.      Yes it does. Mr James Taylor spoke of that years ago, as a most baneful thing⁵. And so it is. And it touches the element of what is social too, and natural relationships, and all that kind of thing, which brings in what is unspiritual, and which the enemy will use to militate against the truth of the assembly.

W.G.L.      Gideon was not ensnared by this. In the previous chapter he says, “I will not rule over you ... Jehovah will rule over you”.

A.J.G.      No, he was not. It is sorrowful to find that he is ensnared by something else. At the same time, he was faithful on that particular matter.

L.W.T.      Had you any thought as to Abimelech’s origin, and the apparent declension with Gideon that gives rise to this position? It is striking that Abimelech should be the result of that declension, is it not?

A.J.G.      Yes. As you read the book you cannot help feeling that the government of God is operating all the way through, and that what is sown is reaped; and that is a kind of warning to us as to what we begin to sow. If we sow to the Spirit we shall reap eternal life, that is quite certain.

W.J.T.      The government of God is seen in that Gideon’s son who would not draw the sword is slain with the seventy, is it not?

A.J.G.      Exactly. I think that is an important matter. Gideon would have brought his son into the conflict in a practical way; and he was afraid because he was but a youth. But then, the young have got to learn to take up conflict, and to learn also, how to take it up.

J.M.D.      Is the basis of relationship with the Lord seen in His own words, “Behold my mother and my brethren: for whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and sister and mother”, Mark 3: 34, 35?

A.J.G.      Quite so. And so as we had on Saturday, the great thing is for us to keep our hearts in the light of the death of Christ, and the love of Christ expressed in it. The apostle says, “the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died”. Now you rest there, and that the only thing now to take account of is the work of God—those who live. “That they should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised”. Therefore, it says, “if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”. That rules out everything else. You link on in your affections with the work of God in the saints, which is new creation; and you do not attach importance to anything else.

B.S.      In that way there is something very beautiful in this answer after answer of perfect contentment with what God has ordered, is there?

A.J.G.      Exactly. 1 Corinthians 12, which deals with this, is a most important chapter to read; because it emphasises the sovereignty of the Spirit. He appoints to each the function that each is to fill, and the great value to us in our localities in understanding that is that we learn to appreciate one another. It helps to promote love in a practical way.

B.S.      Any ambition to be different would really be questioning what God has ordered, would it?

A.J.G.      Exactly.

L.W.T.      Is this reference to “reign over us” striking? I was thinking of Paul’s words in Acts 20, “wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers”.

A.J.G.      Yes. Wherein, not over whom. That is important.

J.B.S.      Here, there is no outward enemy as it were, but it seems to be an internal matter. Does that confirm what you say as to it being a matter of the body? There are no Midianites, of Moabites, or any of these outward enemies; but it is an internal matter, a constitutional matter, would you say?

A.J.G.      Quite so. This desire of Abimelech to be king.

L.V.V.      But would it be an indirect attack on the assembly? I was thinking that it says here, “And they gave him seventy pieces of silver out of the house of Baal-Berith”. He is receiving his support, is he not, from vain fellows who follow him? And from an idolatrous system.

A.J.G.      Exactly.

K.S.      The trees in each case go forth, and seem to want this king over them. In that sense, are they partly to blame? Is Abimelech’s state in a sense a reflection of the state of the people?

A.J.G.      I suppose that would be so. But then what comes to light is that there are these three different trees, the olive tree, and the fig tree, and the vine, who are quite content to be just what God has fitted them for, and nothing more.

C.W.M.      Their first concern is for God, it says, “wherewith by me they honour God and man”.

A.J.G.      That is important I am sure. Then, “Should I leave my new wine, which cheers God and man”, in relation to the vine.

A.B.      So it says, “for thy pleasure they were and are created”. I suppose it is as we are answering to the pleasure of God that we are really fulfilling this service.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

Ques.      What does Jotham represent in this setting?

A.J.G.      The overcomer. Every position of evil that arises calls for an overcomer. And he is the overcomer. It says in verse 21, “And Jotham ran away, and fled, and went to Beer, and dwelt there”; that is, he is resorting to the Spirit. Beer is the Spirit. He flees, and dwells there; because if there is an atmosphere of conflict and you have to assert the truth, the danger is lest you should become imbued with the spirit of conflict and not be maintained in the right spirit. So he flees to Beer. He gets back to the Spirit, and dwells there.

D.W.G.      Is not it a most important matter that we must not engage in conflict for conflict’s sake, but we must engage in conflict as the rights of Christ and the assembly are opposed by the enemy?

A.J.G.      Yes. It was said many years ago now⁶, that the only thing that it is right to contend for is the truth. You do not want to contend for your own position or reputation, nor for anybody else’s position or reputation. You contend for the truth.

H.C.      Is there anything in the double reference to “if ye have dealt truly and sincerely”? Does it connect with 1 Corinthians 5, the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth?

A.J.G.      Yes it would.

H.M.A. Is it important that he went to the top of mount Gerizim, and not mount Ebal?

A.J.G.      Mount Gerizim was the mount of blessing. You had that in mind?

H.M.A. That he had good feelings towards the people of God.

A.J.G.      Yes.

A.E.N.      Would the reference to “God and man” be God having the first place, and then these body feelings that you have got in mind, as marking these persons?

A.J.G.      Yes I think that is right. 1 Corinthians 12 is extremely interesting. It says, “to one, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom”; “to another the word of knowledge” and so on. So that you think of a care meeting, and matters coming up for consideration, and you are waiting on the Spirit; and one comes forward with something that is recognised by all as the word of wisdom; and later someone else comes forward with that which is recognised to be a help. All that kind of thing, making room for one another, and making room for the Spirit, helps to promote mutual respect and affection. It helps us to love one another practically.

H.B.      It would have a very binding effect.

A.J.G.      A very binding effect.

E.J.B.      Is it a great thing in times of difficulty to make way for the truth of the body because if the body starts functioning, the enemy will be dispossessed and the Spirit will have His place, will He not?

A.J.G.      Yes I think so.

L.G.B.      Does not the Spirit’s own pleasure enter into it? “according as He pleases”.

A.J.G.      It does indeed.

A.C.      While Mr Darby dealt with these things in his day,—the spirit of clericalism at Plymouth, and Bethesda—is there not always a danger of these things arising again amongst us, and we would need vigilance relative to them; that they do not in any way gain the upper hand?

A.J.G.      That is exactly what I had in mind in relation to this section of the book, that it seems to me that the different exercises that arise in this section of the book become the occasion for certain features of the truth to be reasserted, and re-established in power among the saints.

R.S.W.       Is there emphasis in Jotham’s parable, as to the importance of rightly estimating what I have myself, and what others have; learning to think soberly.

A.J.G.      Yes, that is very important, that we are not to write ourselves off as nothing; there is not a single member in the body that has nothing to do, every member of the body has some function to fulfil.

A.B.      So that the apostle could speak of the weak brother for whom Christ died.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

L.W.T.      Is it striking that this element, Abimelech, is finally dealt with by a woman? You referred to the place that women had on Saturday, and it is striking that there should be no official leader raised up to deal with this man, is it not?

A.J.G.      Quite so. So that really it represents, I suppose, the subjective work of God in the saints that finally brings about the overthrow of this element.

R.H.      Is that in a way the answer to Jotham’s own exercise, bringing the truth forward, and then himself fleeing?

A.J.G.      That is, he can assert the truth, and then leave it to God to make it effectual.

R.H.      Yes, in His own time.

R.M.      Do you think there is any significance in the order in which the trees are mentioned? The olive, then the fig, then the vine? I wondered if the olive suggested what was of the Spirit, and that must come first.

A.J.G.      What about the fig tree and the vine?

R.M.      The fig has to do with what is peaceful, and then the vine is what is for the pleasure of God.

A.J.G.      It is clear that the vine certainly has that in mind, “my new wine which cheers God and man”.

G.E.E.      Would Romans 12 be complementary to 1 Corinthians 12 as you have been alluding to it? Much is made on the individual line of having sober thoughts as to ourselves, in view of merging in the light of the body.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

L.G.B.      And would it support the matter of each having something? To each is given faith. And to each, the manifestation of the Spirit, in 1 Corinthians 12; and to each grace, in Ephesians 5.

A.J.G.      That is important. Because if every brother and sister in the company is filling out his allotted place according to what God has fitted each for, it will go a long way towards preventing anything of this nature of undue prominence of any particular one. Of course leaders are to lead, there is no doubt about that; but then it is a question of the way in which they lead, the spirit in which they do it. They have to lead in a sense of responsibility. Hebrews is very striking, “Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for they watch over your souls as those that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not groaning, for this would be unprofitable for you”, chap 13: 17. So that any who find themselves in a position of leadership in localities have to recognise that they will be held responsible.

H.B.      And would they sow what they reap, as you have been saying about individuals, would not leaders reap what they sow? I was thinking of Gideon reaping what he sowed, and binding the saints together rather than scattering them.

A.J.G.      Yes I think so.

A.B.      Is not that the truth of Corinthians 12 to which you have been referring? “If the ear say, Because I am not an eye I am not of the body, is it on account of this not indeed of the body?” Does that go with what you say, that we each have our part, and recognise the other?

A.Bn.      The effort to reign over the trees means that they leave what they are positively in the body. “Should I leave my fatness?”

A.J.G.      Exactly.

W.L.      If the natural body is functioning properly, no particular member is conscious of itself.

A.J.G.      I think so. The hand is not a hand for the sake of being a hand; the hand is a hand in order to promote what the body wants to do.

E.J.B.      What about Jephthah?

A.J.G.      With Jephthah it is a question of going over the ground that has been won for us with a view to possessing it. Jephthah says, chapter 11: 24, “whatever Jehovah our God hath dispossessed before us, that will we possess”. He is really concerned with Roman ground is he not, the ground according to the epistle to the Romans? That is the east side of Jordan. It is a question of the position of responsibility here, I suppose, being filled out in the power of the Spirit. But Jephthah, I think, has in view Samson. We were referring on Saturday to what it says in Hebrews 11 where it says, “For the time would fail me telling of Gideon, and Barak, and Samson, and Jephthah, and David and Samuel, and of the prophets”, the Spirit of God bringing in three pairs of men, and each time, putting the second one before the first. Gideon and Barak, Samson and Jephthah, David and Samuel. I think that must mean that it is the second one that is in view in each case, but the previous one comes in to pave the way for him. And I think we may be helped to see this afternoon, if the Lord will, that Samson’s history introduces the greatest feature of the truth; and I believe Jephthah has a certain preparatory bearing.

R.S.W.      Would Barnabas be on that principle in bringing Paul forward.

A.J.G.      Yes, I am rather inclined to think that Jephthah refers to headship in the wilderness, because in chapter 11 we read (v 9), “Jephthah said to the elders of Gilead, If ye take me back to fight against the children of Ammon, and Jehovah give them up before me, shall I be your head?” Then, before that, in verse 8, they invite him to fight against the children of Ammon “and be head over all of us the inhabitants of Gilead”. And then it says in verse 11, “Then Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and captain over them”. I believe it is headship in the wilderness according to the beginning of 1 Corinthians 11, with a view to paving the way for the service of God arising out of the Supper. Do you think there is anything in that?

E.J.B.      I think that is very helpful. So that his review of divine ways with his people would lead to that end, the thought of headship being established.

A.J.G.      Yes. Headship in the wilderness. It is the east side of Jordan. It is not the thought of Christ as Head of the assembly, but rather recognising headship, what is ordained, involving that the Christ is the Head of every man, and that the man is head of the woman, involving that the woman is to have authority on her head; all that is involved in this principle of headship in the wilderness as leading up to right conditions for the Supper, and the service of God proceeding from it.

J.B.S.      Would you say a word, please, as to his accurate knowledge of the history of the people of God?

A.J.G.      I suppose we all ought to be concerned to have a knowledge of the way the truth has been recovered, and what it is that God has brought us into possession of.

R.S.W.      Did you mean the general principle of headship in the wilderness?

A.J.G.      Yes, 1 Corinthians 11: 3, the beginning of the chapter, is headship, but not the headship of Christ to the assembly; but the principle of headship applying to the wilderness, that is, our whole position here. What God has established on the principle of headship.

L.G.B.      In that sense, is it basic to the matter of the headship of Christ, and finally the headship of God?

A.J.G.      Yes, it is connected, and you see, we are living in a world of lawlessness, and woman is assuming a place that God has never intended her to have, in the world all around; and therefore, it is most important, if the Supper is to be taken publicly, as it is taken publicly, and the ground is to be cleared for the service of God that arises out of it, that things should be in divine order amongst us. And therefore this principle of headship must be recognised, involving that the woman has authority on her head because of the angels.

M.S.S.      Does this headship lead on to judging? He becomes judge afterwards. In 1 Corinthians 11 the two ideas come together, do they not, first the matter of the head, and then the apostle says, “Judge in yourselves”.

A.J.G.      Yes quite so.

E.J.B.      Would you mind going over the ground with regard to the covering and the token. I find it is often not understood.

A.J.G.      Well, in 1 Corinthians 11 it says, “I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman’s head is the man, and the Christ’s head God. Every man praying or prophesying, having anything on his head, puts his head to shame. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered puts her own head to shame; for it is one and the same as a shaved woman. For if a woman be not covered, let her hair also be cut off. But if it be shameful to a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, let her be covered”. Then it says “For man indeed ought not to have his head covered, being God’s image and glory; but woman is man’s glory. For man is not of woman, but woman of man”. And so on. And then (v 10), “Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels”. That is, she is to have something on her head, that angels can see, that indicates publicly that she recognises that she is a woman, and that God has placed her in a position of subservience to man. Not servile subservience, of course, but subservience nevertheless.

E.J.B.      That would be at all times?

A.J.G.      Yes at all times. Quite so.

D.W.G.      Would you say that our sisters in taking this matter up would be well advised to have the matter out with the Lord, so that there is a definite token, rather than, shall I say, a utility matter as part of the hair decoration?

A.J.G.      Well it should be something on the head that angels can recognise. It is on account of the angels. They are looking down and see disorder in the world, but they see in the assembly a sphere where God’s order is maintained.

H.B.      It is the principle of subjection in the presence of the greatest lawlessness,

A.J.G.      Exactly. That is what gives such importance to it. And if we are careless in regard of this, I do not see how we can expect to find support in moving into the highest features of the service of God.

H.B.      Do you not think this verse 5 is very important by itself, “But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered puts her own head to shame”? It is a very striking positive statement.

A.J.G.      It is. And there is another thing, if the sisters will bear with me for referring to it, and that is that this scripture says that if a woman has long hair it is glory to her. One sometimes wonders at the freedom with which sisters tamper with their hair. And they do not realise that God says that ... long hair is glory. Why should a sister say to God, ‘I do not think so! I think it is more glorious to take on the fashions of the world’? Why should a sister say that? God says long hair is glory to her.

H.B.      So that really it comes to a question as to where you are with God in this, does it not? Whether it is pleasing to God.

A.J.G.      It does.

E.M.      I have been struck with the first verse of 1 Corinthians 11, it says “Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ”. You cannot be an imitator of Paul unless you fully accept all Paul’s doctrine.

A.J.G.      No, that is so.

B.S.      Would the last verse that you read have a bearing on it all, Jehovah the Judge?

A.J.G.      Yes, you mean that God has a judgment about these matters, as to what He sees in the saints.

B.S.      That is what matters, is it not? And that is what we want to know.

A.J.G.      Exactly

E.J.B.      The very proximity of the Lord’s supper in 1 Corinthians 11 would give us all, and the sisters particularly, an impression of the importance of this apparently simple matter, would it?

A.J.G.      I think so.

A.E.N.      The lawless outlook that has been referred to is carefully guarded in the close of that section in 1 Corinthians 11: l6: “But if any one think to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God”.

A.J.G.      Yes. As though the apostle says, Well that is how the matter stands, and we are not going to contend about it. That is how the matter stands.

W.J.T.      He also says, The things that I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

W.G.L.      With regard to long hair, some sisters think that the long hair is sufficient, in verse 15. Some sisters say the long hair is given to her in lieu of a veil. What do you say about that?

A.J.G.      A veil is a different thought from authority on the head. A veil is something that covers the face, or covers the whole person. It is a question of the befitting modesty that becomes the woman. That is God’s order in creation, that she has a veil. But that is not authority on the head.

Ques.      Why should the angels be particularly concerned as to this matter?

A.J.G.      Because I think they are seeing the wisdom of God in the way that the lawlessness in the world is met in the assembly. Angels are seen in scripture as greatly interested in the work of God, and they see lawlessness developing to its height in the world now; and then they find that in the assembly, as the result of the work of God among the saints, it is being met. It is the one sphere on earth where God’s rights are maintained.

Ques.      Should that therefore lend stress to the exercises of our sisters?

A.J.G.      Yes quite so. The angels are looking on.

E.S.W.      Is it not a great honour, to set out the thoughts of God?

A.J.G.      It is a great honour.

R.S.W.      You become very attractive to Him.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

E.J.B.      With regard to Mr L’s remark, all three are distinct matters, are they not, the covering, the token, and the long hair, and the requirements regarding each should be maintained?

A.J.G.      Yes. You mean that there is no praying or prophesying on the part of a sister without having her head covered. And at all times there is something on her head, authority on the head, that shows that she recognises her position as in a place of subjection. But then, the veil is a different idea altogether. It is just to commend to us the importance of long hair, and that the modesty befitting to womanhood is morally glorious, so long hair is given to her in lieu of a veil.

A.B.      So that you would say in prayer for the gospel, it would be in order for our sisters to have their heads covered?

A.J.G.      Quite so. I think there are very few houses where it is not done, I should think. But certainly that is the principle, that a sister should never pray without her head covered.

L.W.T.      Do you think that a person coming into fellowship should be clear about these matters before we can lay hands on them?

A.J.G.      Yes I think so. If they are really desirous of going on with the truth they will find no difficulty about it. It is remarkable how little difficulty is found by simple souls that are seeking to be pleasing to the Lord.

L.W.T.      Do you think, too, that we need particular help in explaining the matters to our very young sisters that come into fellowship?

A.J.G.      Well we do, but certainly if the parents are breaking bread, they should see it, grow up in the very atmosphere of these things, so that it comes to them as a matter of course.

D.W.G.      Whereas 1 Corinthians 11 has a particular voice to the sisters, should there not also be a voice to those of us who are men, that we take our place, and it is therefore easy for the sisters to take their place in subjection, if we influence rightly as head?

A.J.G.      I think that is so, that it is a challenge to us, as to whether we do hold Christ as our head. He is the Head of every man, any man who likes to avail himself of the wisdom there is in Christ can come into the gain of it.

K.S.      Is it significant that the attack on headship in the wilderness comes through Ammon? I was thinking of what our brother was saying about the men taking their place as head. Did not Lot fall, and his daughters take advantage, and weakness comes in, and that is perpetuated in Ammon.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

H.R.A.      Did not Jephthah in his words go beyond his state? Had he had the confidence of what he said, “Jehovah, the Judge, be judge this day between the children of Israel and the children of Ammon;” he would not have made the vow that resulted in the loss of young life among the saints.

A.J.G.      Well I think that is quite likely, the vow is a very sorrowful matter and I think shows that there was an element of un-spirituality with him.

____________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reading 5

Judges 13: 1-5, 11-21; 14: 5-9; 15: 14-20; 16: 21-31

A.J.G.      Samson is the last of the judges, at least, he is so regarded. Samuel was a great judge, but he is not reckoned among the judges; he is rather regarded by the Spirit of God as the first of the prophets. So that Samson represents, I think, the final features of the recovery of the truth in days of general departure such as we are in, and the characteristic feature of Samson, of course, is his power so long as Nazariteship is maintained. There is a good deal that is in a sense mysterious about his history, much that is mixed; answering in that way, I suppose, to the public position at the present time; but through it all this thread of power and recovery of the truth, the Spirit of God being specially prominent, for we read in the last verse of chapter 13, “the Spirit of Jehovah began to move him”, not simply that He came upon him, but He began to move him. And then, in several incidents we find that the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him; so that his history visualises the Spirit having a special place, and powerful ministry in the recovery of the truth by the Spirit. But what it ends with is not so much the Spirit of God upon him, but rather power developing in him, you might say, in the way of normal growth, the hair of his head growing again, which is perhaps what we have to come to now. Not so much powerful spiritual ministry, although we can thank God that there is something of that, but spiritual power developing amongst us all; in the body of the saints. That is, I believe, is to be characteristic feature of the close of the dispensation. But what is important is the emphasis on Nazariteship. So that we find that the angel of Jehovah appeared to Samson’s mother, Manoah’s wife, and says, “beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine, nor strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son, and no razor shall come on his head; for the boy shall be a Nazarite of God from the womb; and he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines”. The Philistine element is what is all around us in the profession, in the clerical system especially, where the Philistine represents the mind of man, working in the things of God; but it applies closer home, for each of us has to beware of that element working in ourselves. But stress is laid on the importance of Nazariteship, and accompanying it, room being made for the Spirit, so that when Manoah asked the Angel when he appeared the second time, “what shall be the child’s manner and his doing?”, the Angel does not answer the question at all, but simply says, “Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware: she shall not eat of anything that cometh of the vine, neither shall she drink wine nor strong drink, nor eat anything unclean: all that I commanded her shall she observe”, as though to stress that the great thing is to maintain Nazariteship, go in for it and maintain it, and that everything else will follow if that is done.

W.G.L. Would the selection of the tribe of Dan suggest that Nazariteship can be taken up by anybody?

A.J.G.      I suppose so. You mean Dan is not as a rule one of the best of the tribes.

W.G.L. I was thinking that. Sometimes Levites are chosen, or priests.

A.J.G.      It just shows that God is sovereign, and that the principles of God remain, whether it is Dan, or whether it is Judah. The principles remain that power comes where there is real separation to God, and consecration to God.

M.S.S.      This matter of Nazariteship seems specially entrusted to the woman, why is that please?

A.J.G.      Well, the boy who was to be born would have his character formed by the woman.

A.B.      Would discipleship today correspond with Nazariteship?

A.J.G.      I suppose in effect that is so. Would you say what you have in mind?

A.B.      I was thinking of the Lord’s words, “If any one will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me” and so on.

A.J.G.      Discipleship is more a public matter, Nazariteship is perhaps rather more a secret matter, consecration. It will work out of course in what is public, but it involves, I think, the refusal of what is natural so as to make room for the Spirit of God.

L.V.V.      And the secret of it to be jealously guarded?

A.J.G.      That is the whole point.

R.H.      Would you say something about this principle being applied in the home before the child is born.

A.J.G.      It would affect the outlook of the parents, and the kind of thing that would mark the home; so that the child would grow up in an atmosphere of consecration to God.

H.M.A. Does the fact that the Angel says, “I pray thee”, suggest that it is a matter of feeling, and committal, of devotion, rather than what might be legal? “now beware, I pray thee”, v 4.

A.J.G.      “And drink not wine nor strong drink”. Yes I think so. It shows that He is stressing the importance of the matter, I think,

J.C.      Would you say something as to the setting of Nazariteship in Numbers. I was thinking of the blessing of Jehovah coming at the end of that chapter; and in the following chapter we have the princes bringing their offerings.

A.J.G.      That is very interesting, it follows on chapter 5, where there is typically the unfaithfulness of the church publicly, and then the answer to that is Nazariteship taken up by a man or a woman; and then, there is the suggestion that consequent upon that there is power to serve God in great fulness. Is that what you had in mind?

J.C.      I was wondering if that was in your mind, too, in regard of this feature of Nazariteship being brought in now with Samson.

A.J.G.      Well, whereas in Numbers 6 it was apparently presented as something that could be taken up for a specified period, here it is to be characteristic. It says, “For lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son, and no razor shall come on his head; for the boy shall be a Nazarite of God from the womb”. So it is to be characteristic of Samson’s whole life. And it is noticeable that Hannah, Samuel’s mother, took that up as the result of her own exercise. Here the Angel prescribes it to Samson’s mother; but when you come to Hannah, Samuel’s mother, she says, “if thou wilt indeed look upon … thy handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thy handmaid, but wilt give unto thy handmaid a man child, then I will give him to Jehovah all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head”. So that she herself took it up as an exercise that Nazariteship should characterise her son from the beginning.

G.W.C. And she answered Eli with that. She said, “I have drunk neither wine, nor strong drink”.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

W.G.J.      Why is the distinctive title, “a Nazarite of God” used? Is it to stress the sovereignty of God, and God justified in His selection?

A.J.G.      And I think to stress that it is God that is before him in his activities. He is to be a Nazarite of God. It is not to make something of him but he is to be here as on God’s behalf, for the deliverance of God’s people.

L.V.V.      Does not the Angel enforce the same thing in relation to John the baptist, in Luke 1?

A.J.G.      Quite so. It is an important matter, I am sure, that we should maintain in our souls that there is no power spiritually, save as true consecration to God is maintained.

E.J.B.      Does the darkness of the day call for the special devotedness of Nazariteship now?

A.J.G.      I am sure it does. I think it is very significant that in the original institution of Nazariteship it was proposed for a limited period, or a specified period, when you come to Samson and Samuel it is to be characteristic of them all their lives.

A.E.N.      It says here in the end of verse 5, “he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines”. I wondered whether there was the suggestion of the necessity of the continuance of this feature of Nazariteship down throughout the dispensation, in view of the Philistines being dealt with continually.

A.J.G.      I am sure that is so, for the Philistine is that which operates against the Spirit of God. It is the mind of man working in the things of God. And it is a question of overthrowing that completely, so that what is spiritual might alone have place with us.

J.B.S.      Would the fact that it mentions his being a boy show the importance of early youth in relation to this?

A.J.G.      Yes it would. But the Philistines are a most deadly enemy. In Genesis 26, which is a chapter full of Isaac’s movements, as the heavenly man in testimony here, you find that the Philistines are dogging his footsteps all the time, until at last he arrives at a point where they are powerless, and that is really what we have got to be on the watch against all the time, ourselves.

R.D.H.      Would you tell us how this applies today? No razor coming upon his head, and not drinking wine, nor strong drink?

A.J.G.      Well so far as the latter is concerned, I think it is that we are concerned not to come under the power of natural influences, we do not, of course, disallow nature, it is not a question of being dead to nature, or anything of that sort; nature has to have its place in a proper way. But you do not allow yourself to come under the influence of the power of natural influences. So far as the razor on the head is concerned, I suppose it means that no razor coming on his head would result in his being under reproach. He would not look manly at all. For a man to have long hair is normally a shame to him. For a woman it is glory, as God says, it is glory to her, a woman’s long hair. But for a man to have long hair normally is a shame to him; and hence it means that a true Nazarite will come under reproach amongst men.

R.H.      Is it not called his strength later on?

A.J.G.      Yes.

J.C.B.      Do we see the truth of Nazariteship come out in Daniel, he purposed in his heart that he would not pollute himself with the king’s delicacies, and so on?

A.J.G.      Yes. Daniel and those with him purposed in their hearts that they would not defile themselves with the king’s meat. There was real consecration to God there, not exactly in a formal way, but in a real way spiritually.

A.C.      Do these features of true Nazeriteship underly the position at Philadelphia in church recovery? “Thou … hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name”, and then additionally, “thou hast a little power”.

A.J.G.      I think so. I think the little power in Philadelphia lies in the recognition of the Spirit practically. And that is what Nazariteship has in view, that conditions characterised by the Spirit having place, are secured and maintained.

A.B.      So that it says of the Lord when He came from the wilderness, that He returned in the power of the Spirit.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

B.S.      Would you say another word as to this preceding his birth? Do you think all this that she has been warned against, the beware twice, is going to have a great effect in his life, and the power that marked him?

A.J.G.      Yes I would think so. It seems to me to be important that the young amongst us should grow up in conditions that speak of devotion to God, because they will much more readily take it on than if they have to begin young to overcome things in their home.

B.S.      Do we not view it differently if we understand what has preceded in that way?

A.J.G.      Quite so.

K.S.      The Angel adds, “and eat nothing unclean”. Is not that an additional feature that is brought in in connection with Nazariteship here? I wondered if it had a link with the feature of freedom from associations that the Spirit of God is stressing, bringing all the saints into Nazariteship.

A.J.G.      I think it has, definitely. Because, in involving ourselves in association of any kind with others, we really appropriate those others. The eating is very much a question of our companionship or associations; and therefore the word in 2 Corinthians is so strong, “touch not the unclean thing”. Not go as near to it as possible, but, “touch not the unclean thing”.

H.C.      So that the woman would catch up the spirit of the word of the Angel, “no razor shall come upon his head: for the boy shall be a Nazarite of God from the womb to the day of his death”, v 7. It was continuous.

A.J.G.      Yes quite so. She seemed to add in that way to what the Angel had actually said to her in verse 5, as though she had fully taken it in; and was determined, so far as she was concerned, that it should be carried through.

G.W.C. Why is all this warning given before Samson is born?

A.J.G.      Well he was to be so mighty, and to effect such results for the people of God, that I suppose a good deal of preparation had to go on beforehand. Do you not think we need to recognise that in our day, there has been in previous generations a good deal in the way of the work of God preparing the ground for what is current now?

G.W.C.      Yes indeed. It is not arrived at in a day.

K.S.      May we not regard ourselves in that way as the product of the exercises of those who have gone before?

A.J.G.      Yes I think we could. Because the work of God goes on over succeeding generations, and He prepares the ground carefully step by step, so to speak.

A.B.      Other men have laboured, and ye are entering into their labours. Is that it?

A.J.G.      That is the principle.

Ques.      Should we therefore value the ministry which is past, and associate it with what is current, so that we might have what is basic in our souls, to take on what is current? I was thinking of the reference to this matter of Nazariteship bringing us into suited conditions for what is current; and you were speaking of the position testimonially today, and also in relation to the truth, that what has preceded might be taken on in our souls.

A.J.G.      Yes. I think in general the important thing is to take on the truth that the Spirit is ministering at the time. Previous generations, if they have been going on with God, have paid attention to what the Lord was giving distinctively at that time, and it has been made good in their souls, and handed down to succeeding generations, so that there is something that the truth can be built up on. I only say that because it is not necessary that young people today should think that they have got to read up all the ministry that has preceded, (that is putting a task before them that probably they cannot manage), though by all means let them read what they can. The great thing is to follow up the truth at the time it is given; and see that it gets a place in your soul. And that will take form and effect in the local meetings. If the elders have followed up the truth till now, you will find that the local meetings will get the truth ministered by Mr F E Raven and others that have gone before, as well as Mr James Taylor’s ministry, which is so important as being, in principle, the Spirit’s present voice to the assemblies.

G.E.E.      Does that bear on the repetition of the Spirit’s place in relation to the addresses to the seven assemblies in Revelation, what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies?

A.J.G.      Yes quite so.

S.C.      Would teaching bear on what you have been saying, that Manoah asked the Angel that he might come again “and teach us what we shall do unto the child”? I wondered if teaching would come in as well as instruction.

A.J.G.      Teaching is certainly necessary. But it is very striking that when the Angel does come the second time, all he does is to emphasise what he had already said to the woman, as though to stress that the great matter is Nazariteship.

R.H.      You spoke this morning about the principle of headship in the wilderness. Is there some carrying forward of that thought in the way that Manoah is brought into this matter?

A.J.G.      Yes I suppose there is. You mean that the woman was first appeared to by herself, but she immediately brings her husband into it.

R.H.      Yes. I was wondering if it is not really a matter of the households that have to be brought into view; the household complete.

A.J.G.      I am sure that is important. Because the households of the saints regulated by the truth are a great support to the testimony.

L.W.T. Does the last verse of the chapter show how the woman’s exercises were answered, the Spirit of Jehovah began to move him? Should our exercises in regard to our children be that the Spirit of God may move them themselves?

A.J.G.      Yes quite so. They have got to come to things themselves; although they may learn much, of course, and should learn much from their parents.

E.J.B.      You made some remarks earlier as to the difference between the Angel here, and the earlier instance. Would you say a little as to the Angel here, and what he represents?

A.J.G.      It seems to me that in connection with this incident with Manoah we get a suggestion of the highest features of the service of God being in view, because Manoah proposes to detain the Angel, and “make ready a kid of the goats for thee”, he says, “And the Angel of Jehovah said to Manoah, Though thou shouldest detain me, I will not eat of thy bread; and if thou wilt offer a burnt-offering, thou shalt offer it up to Jehovah”. That is, he is suggesting that there is something more beyond serving Him. I do not know whether you catch my meaning? The Angel here is really, I suppose, the Lord, because of his name, and yet at the same time, he is suggesting that there is something beyond what there is for Himself. He is directing to God as the ultimate Object in the service.

E.J.B.      That is very helpful.

G.W.M. Is that why He is spoken of as the man? He is referred to as “the man”.

A.J.G.      Yes quite so.

-.B.      In that regard, do we need spiritual discernment to understand who is speaking to us, and to name Him? Are you suggesting what is subjective here, in the house? I thought of the interchange from the man to the Angel, and so on.

A.J.G.      I expect we all feel our need of help as to being able to distinguish more definitely between the Persons of the Godhead, if that is what you had in mind.

W.G.L. Is there an Ephesian touch in the ascending? Does that refer to Ephesians do you think, the Angel of Jehovah ascended in the flame of the altar. It is in Ephesians we get the thought of ascending, is it not?

A.J.G.      Yes, I have linked it in my own mind with the gospel of John, but of course, Ephesians comes into it as well. But you see we have the glory of the Person, “How is it that thou askest after my name, seeing it is wonderful?” That is the glory of the Person of Christ according to Isaiah 9, His name shall be called Wonderful, Mighty God. And then it says that Manoah and his wife looked on. And then it says a second time that they looked on. So that it is presenting the idea of contemplation, which is a great feature of John’s gospel: “we have contemplated his glory”. It is a question of the glory of the Person of Christ, “the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us”, and then you contemplate His movements, and then you find as you contemplate His movements that they culminate in this, “I ascend”. He says, “to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God”. So that there is a wonderful scope of things opening up as we take account of the Person of Christ, who He is, and His movements.

C.W.M. Is that the significance of verse 11, “Art thou the man that didst speak to the woman? And he said, I am”.

A.J.G.      “I am”. You are linking that with what we have in John 8, the Lord saying, “before Abraham was, I am”. That is very suggestive.

L.V.V.      Is our difficulty that we seek to detain the Lord on our side of things, where He would have us reach to higher levels? The question of the bread on his side, would it be detaining the Lord here?

A.J.G.      I think there is something in that. Manoah says, “I pray thee, let us detain thee, and we will make ready a kid of the goats for thee”. And the Angel says, “Though thou shouldest detain me, I will not eat of thy bread; and if thou wilt offer a burnt-offering, thou shalt offer it up to Jehovah”. He is not exactly saying that it is wrong to be detained, as long as he does not detain him too long; but he is indicating that there is something more.

L.V.V.      And would it be an incentive to him to go forward with it?

A.J.G.      Yes exactly.

B.S.      The word is added, “For Manoah knew not that he was the Angel of Jehovah”. Does that link with John as you say, I mean there is sitting and learning, and he comes into it, does he?

A.J.G.      Yes. I think it is very striking how twice over it says, “Manoah and his wife looked on”. As though there was something before their eyes that was a subject of contemplation for them, and as they are contemplating they get led into the truth.

B.S.      It would all link with John’s gospel, as you said, would it not?

A.J.G.      I think so.

A.E.N.      All that we shall ever know of God, and all that we shall ever see of Him is in that Person, is it, in Christ?

A.J.G.      Exactly. It is an immense thing to take account of His having come from God, and going to God. God, so to speak, was the origin from which His movement commenced, and the ultimate is God.

B.C.      Do you think that the Angel indicated the line he was on when he says in verse 16, as to the burnt-offering, “thou shalt offer it up to Jehovah”, which means ‘cause to ascend’.

A.J.G.      Are you thinking of what is acceptable in that way, or what is in our mind?

B.C.      I wondered if the Angel would indicate to them the line that he had before him in this matter of the burnt-offering, he had God before him, in causing it to ascend.

A.J.G.      Yes, causing it to ascend. And hence the Lord says “I ascend”. And what fragrance for God there would be in that, the ascension of Christ, His going upward to God. He came from God, and was going to God. And He says, “I ascend”.

M.S.S.      Do you think that this contemplation must precede the development of power?

A.J.G.      It is a question I think of being led into the fulness of the service of God. When the Lord came in it says they contemplated His glory—His glory. It is a question of the glory of the Person whose name is Wonderful. And that sheds its lustre on all His movements, including His movement into death, and then His resurrection and His ascending; and all that is involved in it, “my Father and your Father, my God and your God”.

R.H.      Is it interesting that it speaks of Manoah offering it up to Jehovah upon the rock, but then afterwards it speaks of the altar, as though the conception of the rock had changed?

A.J.G.      Yes, the rock becomes the altar. That is very interesting. We remarked yesterday about the rock in connection with Gideon; and now we get the rock again here. It speaks I believe of the faithfulness of God where the truth is being answered to. But then as you say, it becomes an altar.

R.H.      Would that have in mind that all these ascending ideas that you have been speaking of are all based upon the death of Christ?

A.J.G.      Quite so.

D.W.G. I think we should like a touch further on the question of ascending. Here he ascends in the flame of the altar.

A.J.G.      I suppose it shows how fully acceptable the ascension of Christ is, he ascended in the flame of the altar. The flame usually speaks of the way that the offering is accepted by God, it is pleasing to Him.

A.Br.      Did the Lord ascend in virtue of His own offering?

A.J.G.      Yes, and in the value of His own Person, too. “On this account”, He says, “the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again”. How much there is involved in His taking it again. It means that He is able to bring in in His own life those that are to be before God in relationship with Him eternally.

W.H.S.       Is it in contemplation that matters become clearer to us?

A.J.G.      I am sure that is important. We have contemplated His glory, it says, a glory as of an only-begotten with a Father. Now that was written by John many years after they actually companied with the Lord down here, and I have no doubt that as a result of contemplation, things had increased in his soul; and therefore he was able to write such a gospel as the gospel of John.

W.H.S. Is it in your mind that contemplation is a feature that ought to mark us more characteristically?

A.J.G.      Quite so. I think what encourages us to contemplate is to get an impression of the glory of the Person of Christ. Here it is someone whose name is wonderful, the mighty God. And yet He is a Man, became a man, and has been through death, and ascended as man. Well what does it all mean? The more we contemplate it, the more we shall be impressed with the way God has come out in Christ, and the way we go in in Him.

L.W.T.       Does chapter 17 of John’s gospel particularly set forth the matter for our contemplation, the Lord says, “and I come to thee”, verse 11.

A.J.G.      Exactly. It is striking that that remarkable prayer of the Lord should be given in the presence of the disciples; so that they are allowed to see Him in immediate relation to His Father, and to hear Him speak in a way that covers the whole scope of the period of testimony.

G.E.E.      Would you say along with the spirit of contemplation there should be a worshipful spirit too, the addition of this word here that they fell on their faces to the ground?

A.J.G.      I think that would follow. If there is real contemplation, I think worship is sure to follow.

E.J.B.      Does this link on with the beginning of Hebrews 8 at all, “We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle”, as though the whole scope of the service is in mind as Christ is apprehended in that light?

A.J.G.      Yes I think so.

J.B.S.      Would you say in regard to what you have been speaking of as to the Lord’s Person, the Lord speaks of John abiding till He comes; is that kind of rock-like character to go on till the end of the dispensation? What is presented in John is to continue until the coming of the Lord.

A.J.G.      Yes I think that is right. John presents things not formally or officially, but he presents things in life; when things break down publicly and outwardly, still they go through in the power of life.

M.S.S.      It says here “And the Angel of Jehovah appeared no more”. Is that the inauguration of the dispensation of faith, like the beginning of Acts?

A J.G.      I suppose it is. It is a dispensation of faith. God’s dispensation which is in faith.

Ques.      Mr Darby connects the word “wonderful” at the end of verse 18 with the title “Wonderful” in Isaiah 9. Would you say something as to that.

A.J.G.      I think we have already been touching on that. It indicates the greatness of the Person of Christ. Because that verse in Isaiah 9 says “his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace”, v 6. So it brings in that He is God, and yet it is a man that is in question. So that it is a question of our being impressed with the greatness of Christ, and what is in view in His movements, His coming from God and His going to God. And going up as ascending, that is going up in His own right and power.

H.M.A. In the ascension of Elijah it is stated that Elisha saw it, and he says, “My father, my father”. Is there any link there? I was thinking of the matter of contemplation, the double portion was dependent upon his seeing it.

A.J.G.      Yes. I think what he saw was that there was abundant resource for the continuance of the testimony, but it was of a spiritual character. So he says, “the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof”. There was abundant resource for the continuance of the testimony in the light of the one who has gone on high, but he was to understand that these resources were spiritual.

J.C.B.      Is the spirituality of the wife seen in verse 23, as over against Manoah in verse 22?

A.J.G.      I think that is so.

L.W.T.       Should we have an impression in the service of God that what we have brought has been accepted?

A.J.G.      I think we should. I think we do sometimes. Have you something in mind specially?

L.W.T.       No. I believe we do get that impression, do we not?

A.J.G.      Well it is a question of the Spirit. If we do get that impression it is by the Spirit. The importance is that the Spirit should be fully in control, and I believe if He is recognised by us in some word of thanksgiving, or worship being addressed to Him, we usually find that there is increased power brought in. Is that your experience?

L.W.T.       I think so, a little.

E.J.B.      We would make way for that early in the service?

A.J.G.      Yes I think it is right that it should be done early in the service.

G.W.C. Does our response to God depend upon our knowledge of God? I was thinking of the way Manoah did not know, then he does know, and his enquiry to the Angel; his knowledge is increased; hence he acts accordingly.

A.J.G.      Yes quite so. That is good. And in the other two chapters, 14 and 16, it is a question of the recovery in power of certain features of the truth. So that in verse 6 of chapter 14 we have the Spirit of Jehovah coming upon him; and then again in chapter 15: l4 we have “the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him”. This first incident about the young lion, and the way that Samson rends it as one rends a kid, nothing in his hand, would impress us, I think again, with the glory of Christ, and His power as entering into death, having in view the object of His affections. But it results in a fellowship that is committed to His death. He “turned aside to see the carcase of the lion; and behold there was a swarm of bees in the carcase of the lion”, which seems to point, I think, to the saints being committed to the fellowship of Christ’s death, they are together in it; and a very important matter, because it means we are preserved from coming under the influence of the world, and we find support in one another. We find all the support we need in the fellowship.

D.W.G. In saying that, have you 1 Corinthians 10 in mind, rather than 1 Corinthians 11?

A.J.G.      Quite so. It is important that as we appreciate the death of Christ, we should realise that we are committed to it, we do commit ourselves to it, every time we take the bread, and drink the cup. But it is a question of what is preservative. That is what is in mind in 1 Corinthians 10, that we are preserved from what is around us through being identified with the death of Christ publicly. But then, as identified with it together, there is a fellowship in which we find support. So that there is a swarm of bees in the carcase of the lion, and honey.

B.S.      You were speaking earlier of what we cannot eat. There is something here that we can eat. He ate, and he gave to his father and mother and they ate.

A.J.G.      Yes. Quite so.

M.S.S.      Why does it say “he ate” first? The Lord ate, did He not, in Luke 24, He ate of the honeycomb?

A.J.G.      Yes. He took it and ate before them. He was concerned that they should be really established in the reality that it was Himself risen from the dead. So that He took it and ate before them. And I think we can apply that to the occasions of our coming together, that there should be something that the Lord can appropriate to Himself. He says there, “Have ye anything here to eat?” And they gave Him a part of a broiled fish and of a honeycomb.

L.W.T.       Are we experiencing now, in these closing days, the sweetness connected with the fellowship?

A.J.G.      I think we are.

K.S.      Do we only get it by going in the Spirit’s power straight for the adversary?

A.J.G.      What are you referring to?

K.S.      The young lion roared against him.

A.J.G.      Well of course it is the Lord that had to meet the lion. I suppose the lion is Satan as wielding the power of death, and the Lord has met it completely, there being nothing in His hand; it is a question of the inherent power in Himself.

C.W.M. Do you think we have to understand the riddle? I wondered if we have to understand what the death of Christ has really brought about, the sweetness, that has resulted from it.

A.J.G.      I am sure that is important. So that we are intended to find all the support and refreshment we need in the fellowship. We do not need to go outside of it for anything.

L.G.B.      So that there is not only the swarming, but the mutual working together?

A.J.G.      Exactly.

F.C.E.      The Philistines were ruling in the land, and Saul would not have the people eat of the honey; but Jonathan was concerned that they should. Does that link on?

A.J.G.      I suppose it does. Would you mind enlarging on it a little.

F.C.E.      It was just the thought of the Philistines ruling in the land; and yet there is this joy and sweetness of the fellowship that is available in such conditions. Saul, the Philistine in us, would deprive the people of God of this sweetness.

A.J.G.      Yes. And I think that incident rather goes along with what we had yesterday as to Gideon. The three hundred men that did not abandon the position of good soldiers of Jesus Christ, they did not go down on their knees, they just lapped with their hands; and so Jonathan just took a little of the honey on the end of his rod, the end of the staff, did he not? He was a good soldier in that way, he took up what was at hand, what God had provided for their refreshment without becoming immersed in it, or overcome by it.

B.S.      Why do you think that it is recorded that he did not tell them where it came from, Judg 14: 9? How would that apply? There is a certain secrecy maintained, is there?

A.J.G.      Yes I think that should be so. The secrets of the fellowship, and the joys of the fellowship should be kept within the circle of the fellowship.

B.S.      Is that not important, do you think, that we do not tell all we know?

A.J.G.      It is important. Especially that we do not talk about things that belong to the fellowship to those who are not in it. It is most important.

J.T.S.      In 1 Corinthians 11 the Lord says, “This is my body, which is for you”. In chapter 10 we have “we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf”. Do we get the two sides there?

A.J.G.      I think we do. You mean that Samson meeting the lion is like “This is my body, which is for you”; and then this matter of the honey in the carcase of the lion is like “we, being many, are one loaf, one body”.

G.W.C. Is it good to see that honey is the product of life? I was just thinking that all the sweetness that we enjoy is the result of the Lord being in resurrection life. We are touching what is eternal, in new creation.

A.J.G.      Yes.

L.V.V.      And do we taste the sweetness in the power of Nazariteship?

A.J.G.      That is important. Because if we surrender Nazariteship we lose our taste for spiritual things at once.

A.C.      Referring to the roaring of the lion, is it in a certain sense carried on now, that intimidation has to be faced. In the unions and associations, it is there. Peter refers to the enemy as a roaring lion, does he not?

A.J.G.      Yes. I think that is so. The character of intimidation is there in the world in opposition to the testimony. But let us bear in mind, as we have said two or three times in these meetings, it is the assembly that is the great thing in the mind of God, and that is the great object of attack. In all these things, it is the assembly that is the object of the enemy’s attack.

D.W.G. Much has been said in these meetings about associations. Does not the contemplation of this, the swarm of bees, and the honey, give us some sense of the sweetness of fellowship one with another, as we go on in the fellowship of Christ’s death?

A.J.G.      Yes it does, and it is all that we need. So when the apostles in the early days of the Acts were threatened, being let go, it says, they went to their own company. And they found all that they needed there.

R.D.H.      So Peter speaks of the brotherhood. “Your adversary the devil as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour. Whom resist, steadfast in faith, knowing that the self-same sufferings are accomplished in your brotherhood which is in the world”. Would there be an encouragement in the brotherhood, do you think?

A.J.G.      Yes I am sure. And if there is suffering anywhere in the brotherhood it should bind us together in feelings of sympathy with our brethren.

K.S.      What is the thought of the carcase of the lion?

A.J.G.      It just speaks of death I think. It is the fellowship of Christ’s death. There is a swarm of bees in the carcase of the lion, and honey.

R.S.W. Is that the way the sweetness has reached us, through the death of Christ?

A.J.G.      It is. Exactly. Well then this subsequent incident as to the jawbone of an ass. Mr Taylor referred to it years ago⁷ as really linking on with the way the truth and power of prophetic ministry has been recovered to us. We have what we call the meeting for ministry, it is a question of a fresh jawbone of an ass. Something fresh, and something that suggests mastication, something that has been made your own first. But it is a fresh jawbone of an ass, and it is very powerful. It says “the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him ... and he found a fresh jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand and took it, and slew with it a thousand men”. It is an important matter that we should not only arrange for meetings for ministry, as the Lord has helped us to do, usually once a month, but that there should be exercise as to the meetings. Not that we exactly come with something prepared, but that we are to be exercised that there should be something in freshness in the power of the Spirit that will meet whatever has got to be met, in opposition to the truth.

B.S.      If we are exercised in that way, we shall find something. It says he found it.

A.J.G.      Yes exactly.

E.J.B.      This is the Spirit’s answer to the shoutings of the Philistines, is it?

A.J.G.      It is exactly.

G.E.E.      Would this touch of freshness specially bear upon the word in 1 Corinthians 14 that if there be a revelation to another sitting there, as though there is something distinctive and fresh coming forward?

A.J.G.      Yes I think it would.

C.R.B.      I should like help. Those of us who are brothers, and who come, we trust, in exercise, to the meetings for ministry, to what extent might we expect to have impressions before the meeting; or on the other hand, get a fresh impression as we are sitting there, waiting on the Lord?

A.J.G.      I think both hold good. I would not rule out having impressions before we come to the meeting, by any means. On the other hand, I think it often takes place that an impression is received while we are sitting there.

C.R.B.      On the line of the verse that our brother has just quoted?

A.J.G.      Yes exactly.

L.W.T.       Does Samson’s poetry here confirm the suggestion that we might have a hymn during the course of a meeting for ministry?

A.J.G.      I would not rule that out.

L.W.T.       In 1 Corinthians 14 we have “each of you hath a psalm”.

A.J.G.      Yes, I think we have to leave liberty for the Spirit to express Himself in whatever way He thinks well, sometimes a hymn might come in usefully, as given out in the Spirit, as binding the saints together, as long as we do not make it an occasion for hymn-singing. We come there to hear the mind of God, do we not?

J.T.S.      Would you consider that “whenever ye come together, each of you has a psalm” favourably? I am thinking of our brother’s question.

A.J.G.      I am not sure how to regard that verse. I am inclined to think it may be regarded in two ways. It is quite right that each of us should have something in the way of substance in our souls, and then there is something that the Spirit can draw upon. On the other hand, it may suggest that with the Corinthians there was too much activity, and of a sort that was not spiritual. Is that what you thought?

J.T.S.      I had thought that it would leave us at least in exercise that we should have something, not of necessity that we are going to say something, but have something.

A.J.G.      I think that is right.

A.Bn.      Two things are said about the jawbone, it says that he found it, then he stretched forth his hand and took it. Does that emphasise what you are saying? The exercise does not only start at the meeting, it precedes it, it is there with us as we come. Then he put forth his hand and took it, it says.

A.J.G.      I think it is important that there should be substance in the souls of the brethren. Therefore the jawbone, suggesting mastication, what has been made our own. And if we are together and there is substance in the souls of the brethren, it means that the Spirit can call upon it, using whom He will. Sometimes you fear that because the meeting is announced we just come as a matter of course without much exercise.

H.B.      That would create an atmosphere for it, would it?

A.J.G.      It would indeed.

A.Bn.      How does the thought of the anointing apply here? It says the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him. Perhaps you would help us as to the anointing.

A.J.G.      I think the anointing should enter into everything that is done in the assembly. It is not a question now of the Spirit of Jehovah coming upon us exactly, it was that in Old Testament times; but the Spirit of God is upon us now, for we are anointed; He is the anointing. But I think it is evident from scripture that the anointing should characterise all that is done in the assembly.

A.E.N.      Is the matter of the facing of the feature of death brought forward in the jawbone of the ass, too, in meeting the Philistine?

A.J.G.      Yes I suppose it is.

L.V.V.      So that in the meeting for ministry, you would expect things being done in dignity and power, would you?

A.J.G.      That is what is involved in the anointing.

W.G.L. Does the word in Corinthians bear on it, “the weakness of God is stronger than men”, seen in the jawbone of an ass?

A.J.G.      Yes, I think that is right.

Ques.      Would you say a word on the casting away of the jawbone of an ass?

A.J.G.      Well it means that you are leaving room for what is fresh on the next occasion. You are not going to use the same over again. Of course, if you get a spiritual impression it may enlarge, so that it is capable of being used a second time in a fresh way. But you are not going to just give the same word again, on the next occasion.

W.J.T.      The Psalmist says, “I shall be anointed with fresh oil”. Is that the thought?

A.J.G.      Yes.

Ques.      Does it stress the need of the constant recognition of the Spirit? You spoke of it at the outset of the meetings?

A.J.G.      Yes, it does indeed, and so Samson having cast the jawbone away, it says he was very thirsty. He has got to experience in himself the need of being renewed spiritually, and so he cries to Jehovah, and God clave the hollow of the rock which was in Lehi, and water came out of it. Therefore its name was called En-hakkore, that is the caller’s spring. It is very encouraging that you can always, in that way, call upon the Spirit, because He is always with us, and in us.

J.B.S.      Is it interesting that in speaking to Jehovah, he refers to himself as “thy servant”? Would that suggest that there would be power given in relation to the service, the refreshment given to sustain.

A.J.G.      Yes I would think that.

B.S.      The word here says it is there to this day, the caller’s spring. What a mercy that is, is it not?

A.J.G.      It is indeed. So that every time when we come together we can rely upon this.

B.S.      We prove that, do we not? Is it the Spirit as ever available, just to be called on? It seems a beautiful suggestion, does it not?

A.J.G.      It is. It is like the well in Numbers 21. It says they come to Beer, and “that is the well of which Jehovah spoke to Moses, Assemble the people and I will give them water. Then Israel sang this song, Rise up, well! Sing unto it”. So that it is a question of our assembling, and the Spirit always being available to be called upon,

L.W.T.       You referred at the beginning to Genesis 26, and the Philistines there; their activity had been to stop the wells, had it not? Is there a peculiar triumph here in the rock being cleft, as over against the activities of the Philistines?

A.J.G.      Yes I think so. God does this. Isaac or his servants had to dig the wells, which speaks of exercise on our side; but here God sovereignly intervened, and clave the rock.

A.B.      Could we have something said as to the end of this history? Samson being brought out for sport.

A.J.G.      It follows on his surrendering his Nazariteship, that the Philistines seize him and put out his eyes, and brought him down to Gazah, and bound him with fetters of bronze; and he had to grind in the prison-house. But the hair of his head began to grow after he was shaved. That is the turning point. It is gradual growth, it is not now the Spirit coming upon him, and acting mightily as having come upon him; but it is gradual growth, the hair of his head began to grow, after he was shaved. That is power began to develop. Not now in a sudden way, like a powerful address, or something of that sort, but inward power developing among the saints.

L.G.B.      Is it something like the increase of God? I was thinking of the reference to inward power in Colossians.

A.J.G.      Increases with the increase of God you are thinking of. Perhaps so.

G.E.E.      Would it specially bear upon the evidences of life appearing at the end?

A.J.G.      Yes I think it would, and that the last days are to be particularly characterised by this feature, that there is inward spiritual power marking the saints in general, rather than a few particular ministers in power.

A.B.      You referred to the caller’s spring. But now we find him calling upon Jehovah, and there is a ready answer. He called upon Jehovah to answer him this once.

A.J.G.      Yes.

W.G.L. May I ask if chapter 16 is an appendix in Samson’s history, illustrating the last days, because the last verse of chapter 15 is really a summary, “he judged Israel in the days of the Philistines twenty years”. And that is repeated at the end of chapter 16.

A.J.G.      Yes it is. He had judged Israel twenty years. I think so. It seems to show how things break down publicly, in this terrible unfaithfulness on Samson’s part in chapter 16; first with the harlot, and then with this woman—Delilah. You wonder that he went so far as he did. But he did, and lost his power, but then he is recovered in this way, on the line of the hair of his head beginning to grow.

R.H.      Would you say something about that, and the application of it, that he is recovered in conditions of captivity.

A.J.G.      Yes, and his power really is at its zenith when he dies. Death becomes the secret of power with him.

D.W.G. And is it striking that it is not now the seven locks that begin to grow, but the hair. Things are not outwardly the same; but characteristically there is the power. Is that the point?

A.J.G.      That is the idea, I think. And then it says in verse 26, “Samson said to the lad that held him by the hand, Let loose of me, and suffer me to feel the pillars upon which the house stands”. Just a lad, the last thing that is holding him. The last thing that is linking him to the world in any form whatever, just a lad. You get rid of that.

R.S.W. Does that correspond somewhat to the second epistle to Timothy? The power that the apostle suggests is open to anyone in separating from iniquity in the last days.

A.J.G.      Quite so. There is no power without it.

E.M.      Could you say why it says that he had to grind in the prison-house, and then his hair began to grow.

A.J.G.      I suppose it is stressing what is governmental.

A.C.      Is there not a salutary lesson to be learned in this, that in surrendering a principle we shall suffer far more than if we maintain a principle?

A.J.G.      Yes I am sure that is so. But it is encouraging that God gives recovery, even though it be in humbling circumstances. So the hair of his head begins to grow, and then he gets free of this lad, the last thing that is holding him, and then he is able to bring down the whole system. But he dies himself.

C.H.T.      Is the thought of the two pillars here that Samson pulls down—is the whole structure of Christendom to come down, as we get in the two pillars here?

A.J.G.      Yes. I think it is a question of discerning what the Philistine system is upheld by, that is to say, all that is opposed to the Spirit. I think it may refer to the mind of man on the one hand, and the will of man on the other. Those are the two pillars, I believe, that support the whole Philistine system, and they have got to be overthrown in the power of the Spirit in every one of us.

A.Bn.      Is Nazariteship the quality that goes through? It is basic in the thoughts of God.

A.J.G.      Yes exactly.

G.E.E.      And does the hair beginning to grow in that way bear upon the fact that the point of departure really is the point of recovery? We have to get back to that, as the great power by which the world system is overthrown.

A.J.G.      That is a great principle, that the point of departure has to become the point of recovery.

R.S.W.      Is there something peculiarly distinctive about Philadelphia, “thou hast a little power”? Does it correspond with this?

A.J.G.      I think it does correspond with this very much. It is a little power, it is not weakness, but it is a little power. That is, the thing that is there is power, even though it be here, only in a small quantity.

A.E.H.      The two hands are brought into this matter. We have had several references to it, during the three days; there is no admixture, he is wholly committed to this matter now, he is separated to God fully, do you think?

A.J.G.      Quite so.

R.H.      Would this “only this once” reference suggest that Samson now is really taking up and carrying through to the finish the principle of Nazariteship?

A.J.G.      So that he is prepared to lay down his life.

W.J.T.      Would you say a further word as to the lad? You spoke of human resources, did you not?

A.J.G.      I was quoting what Mr James Taylor has said⁸, that when he says to this lad, “Let loose of me”, Samson was getting rid of the last thing that held him, just a lad, it was only a little thing, but it was holding him to the world.

W.J.T.      He would be a Philistine lad, would he not?

A.J.G.      Exactly. He would.

K.S.      Is it interesting that it goes almost back to the beginning of his spiritual history, he is buried between Zoreah and Eshtaol; that was where the Spirit of Jehovah began to move him.

A.J.G.      Quite so.

J.M.D.      Samson said “I pray thee ... O God, that I may take vengeance on the Philistines for my two eyes”. Will you say a word about that, please.

A.J.G.      I suppose it shows that he was accepting the government of God; it was governmental that his eyes were put out.

H.M.A. Does the fact that he had previously been able to disengage himself, and power had come in, show the patience of God, God is determined that he should be entirely free from the influences that he was conscious that he needed to be disengaged from?

A.J.G.      Yes. I think it is clear that if the hair of our head begins to grow again, that is to say, if spiritual life really develops with us, we shall become sensitive as to the least thing that is holding us that is contrary to the truth.

 

SHEFFIELD

22^nd April 1957

____________________