CHAPTER 13: 53 TO CHAPTER 16: 5
CHAPTER 13: 53 TO CHAPTER 16: 5
FER I think this is all one subject, and the whole passage brings out the completeness of the break with the existing state of things, and the new place which the Lord takes. You see, for instance, when He had finished the parables “he departed thence” (verse 53), then He goes into the “desert place apart” (chapter 14: 13), in the next chapter He goes into “the coasts of Tyre and Sidon” (verse 21), and in the following chapter (16: 4) “he left them, and departed”. It is all indicative of the break with the existing order of things, and then in connection with Peter in chapter 14 we find the new place which the Lord has taken; it is really what marks the present time, and Peter has to go to where He is. All that has to come out in a certain sense before the Lord could speak of the new thing, that is, the church. We could not understand anything about the church if we did not see how complete the break was with the existing order of things, and the new place the Lord has taken. It is a little difficult to follow, in a certain way, because there is an overlapping; we get the Lord still ministering to the poor of the flock, and yet at the same time the circumstances indicate to anyone who has the least spiritual judgment the break which now existed with the established order of things.
Rem But then it was no longer the nation, as such, but the poor of the flock.
FER Yes, they sought Him. It is what comes out in Zechariah. He breaks the covenant and feeds the poor of the flock. That is what He is doing in these two chapters. He proves the boundlessness of the resources that were there outside the existing order of things. As to Himself there are two great things, He goes up into a mountain to pray, and He walks on the water; both indicate the place which Christ has taken outside the Jewish order [p. 104] of things.
Ques. Gone up to heaven?
FER Yes, gone outside all human order, flesh cannot walk on the water.
Rem And that is what He is doing now.
FER And that is where we have to find Him, we cannot find the Lord in the boat now. He will be found in the boat by-and-by. The boat is the Jewish order of things. Christendom, in a sense, has become the boat.
Rem But you cannot get out of it.
FER Well, you can and you cannot; you can go forth without the camp though you cannot get out of it dispensationally; I quite admit, you cannot go out of the great house.
Rem The boat is something that you can look to for support. Christendom is really a religious system in which a man can settle down as a Jew could in his.
FER It is all set up on the pattern of Judaism. Of course, you have to remember that there is this difference, that the Lord comes to the boat (to the Jewish remnant) by-and-by, and they own Him.
Rem That is, He resumes connection with Israel.
FER Yes, and then they own Him as Son of God, but they do not walk on the water. It is as plain as possible to me that a Jew will neither go inside the veil nor outside the camp. Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 13 have no application to the Jew. If we come in as companions of Christ within the veil, our place is to go forth to Him without the camp; but the Jews will not have the same open to them.
Rem The disciples in the boat really set forth the Jewish remnant.
FER Yes, the boat was the proper place for them; but the important point is that the Lord does not go with them, but up into the mountain. I suppose it is coincident with John 6. He goes up into a mountain there after feeding the multitude, only Peter does [p. 105] not walk on the water, there is that difference. I think it is a pretty good proof of the break with the existing order of things. That is the reason Herod is brought in here. The Lord leaves things in that state, in the hands of the lawless Edomite. He goes out to the desert place, and ministers to the poor of the flock; but He shows to the disciples the new place which He was about to take. The important point about it is, that it is a place that the natural man has no power for at all, only the spiritual man can reach it. I think it is a great thing at the present time, for I do not know a greater lesson for any one of us to learn than to cease to bring the Lord into our things, but to leave our things and go to the Lord’s. He came to the boat ultimately, He will come to man’s things; but we have to leave the boat, and it is only faith that can do that.
Rem It is a comfort to see that the Lord sustains all who are willing to go to Him.
FER I think there is a certain exhilaration about going outside the boat, that is, going where we are entirely cast upon the Lord. Peter began to sink; it was all a pattern; Peter could not walk on the water until the Spirit was given, until he was supported by the divine power. As long as the Lord was here He did in a way what the Spirit does now; for example, He was the expositor of Scripture; many things for which we are dependent upon the Spirit the Lord did when here.
Rem And yet I suppose the Spirit does what the Lord did not do.
FER Oh, yes, quite so. All these scenes are more or less typical.
Ques When you speak of leaving the boat and going on the water, do you mean people leaving the sects and systems and coming into fellowship?
FER No, I do not; I do not believe in that. I want people to leave their sects and systems and go [p. 106] out to Christ. I have seen the bad effect of what you refer to.
Rem They merely leave one boat for another.
FER It is poor work to leave one body of Christians for another, the point is to come to Christ. I know what it is, I had the errors of the Church of England exposed to me, and I was attracted to brethren; I think I had but a poor sense that I had to leave the boat and go to Christ.
Rem You have learnt that since, and you leave others to learn it.
Rem Still it is a great thing to start with it, and why should not we start with it?
FER Yes. It is to be found in 2 Timothy. You cannot read the epistle without seeing the prominent place the Lord has. “Let every one who names the name of the Lord”. “The Lord knoweth them that are his”. “The servant of the Lord must not strive”. It is all the Lord. You must have a boat unless you have got the Lord. It is a great thing for those who have to do with people to put it before them rightly.
Rem Else it is merely a question of getting out of an unsound boat into a sound one.
FER I think I felt that if I got among brethren I should get to where I would be supported; but if you would be supported by the Lord, you must leave the boat.
Rem Otherwise you get nothing that will stand any test; if a test comes along you are on your beam ends.
Rem What makes it difficult is that it is intensely individual.
FER Yes, for although the church is here, the church is in ruin, and things must be individual. You cannot have a church within a church, that is not the divine thought.
Rem We look for support and encouragement [p. 107] from the brethren rather than from the Lord. The time comes when the boat gets a good shaking.
FER Yes; but then in all the troubles the Lord has been somewhere.
Ques I suppose it was affection for the Lord which animated Peter?
FER Yes; in 1 Corinthians 16 the apostle says, “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha”.
Ques What do you mean by a church within a church?
FER The idea might come into the mind of setting up a model of the church, then you would have a church within the church. Matthew 13 brings out the place the Lord had occupied here, from the outset really. Matthew 14 brings out the new place He was going to take, and in connection with the new place comes out the whole system of heavenly administration.
Ques What do you understand by receiving the Lord into the boat?
FER He comes to the Jewish remnant by-and-by.
Rem But is it not clear that the Lord has not come into the boat yet and does not it follow that the Lord is now supporting those whom He has called out?
FER Peter is a representative man here, he is not viewed as an apostle, he indicates the necessity of the moment if you are to be where the Lord is.
Ques Did you say the Lord was supporting those whom He had called out?
Answer. Yes. He has called out the assembly while He is away, presently He is coming into the Jewish boat.
Ques Do you mean He has called the assembly out of the boat?
FER Strictly it is the calling out of those who formed the remnant, but practically it includes the Gentiles.
[p. 108] Ques Does it answer to the calling out of the Jewish fold as in John 10?
FER It is something like it, but the connection is different.
Rem You get Peter’s energy and affection, he says, “Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water”.
FER If you get the realisation of the Lord as is evident in Peter’s question, you find that Peter got assurance of heart in taking the step.
Ques Is Christendom a system like Judaism?
FER In Christendom they have gone back to the boat principle, that is a great system that supports people. We all confess the Lord, but I think there is a point beyond that, when the Lord is known individually to affection. You are not very effective unless you know the Lord in affection, so that you are prepared to leave everything and go to Him.
Rem I suppose the character of Ephesus was that at the outset, first love.
Ques We should all be prepared to admit that there are many with affection for the Lord in what we should call the boat?
FER Yes, but it is a pity they do not leave it and go out to the Lord, not to the brethren but to the Lord; surely we should be prepared to leave everything so as to get to Him.
Rem It is important to notice that Peter has the Lord’s word.
FER He would not have taken the step otherwise; the idea is first with Peter, and the Lord encouraged it saying, “Come”. The Lord had gone up as the Priest and now He comes out as Lord, supreme in administration. We have to go out of our things to Him, but are not people very much disposed to bring the Lord into their things and not to go out of them to Him?
Rem I think that is just the difference between [p. 109] what we are talking about and the very true piety among the sects and systems.
FER I think that ‘Lord’ is the title of administration, and that the administration is wholly limited to the will of God. He does not administer in the things of this world, and what I argue from that is that you must leave your things to find Him. The will of God is the body of Christ, and if you are set on that you will be with the Lord and the Lord will be with you. I do not undervalue piety. I do not say it is not right to make your wants known, I most heartily go with all that, but the administration of the Lord is another matter. The will of God is to gather up all things in one in Christ, but at the same time is made known the mystery of His will, the body, that is what God is working for. The principle comes out in the parables of the kingdom, the field is bought for the sake of the treasure, and it is one pearl of great price. God’s will was revealed in the Old Testament, Psalm 8; but now in addition to what was made known there we have the mystery of His will, that is the body. “That they who are of the nations should be joint heirs, and a joint body, and joint partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus by the glad tidings”. That is what has come to light now.
Ques Is it that the great thought now is the body, and ultimately it will be the heading up of all things in Christ?
FER Yes, the body is Christ’s fulness. God is forming the vessel which is to be perfectly expressive of Christ.
Rem So that the will of God is expressive of what God is doing.
FER Yes, and it is in that sphere that the Lord administers. There is no novelty about the will of God, it was made known in Psalm 8; everything is to be under the Son of man, but now He has made known the mystery of His will.
[p. 110] Rem And that is something that is known only to the initiated before the public display has come, and the great thing is to be in the truth of that.
FER The first great act of administration was the sending down of the Holy Spirit to form the body. He ascended up far above all the power of evil, above all heavens, and the first great act was the gifts to men, and these are all for the work of edifying the body.
Ques What is the difference between Lordship and Headship?
FER Lordship is supremacy and administration. Headship is that He receives everything for the body so that the body is formed according to the Head. I should not say the body is formed according to the Lord but according to the Head.
Rem The Lord, too, is individual, not so the Head.
FER I think the Lord will be known more as Head by us when in heaven.
Rem But you have to bring the Lord into your things so as to do His will in them.
FER You are tested in your things, you have to consider whether you are acting for the Lord’s will; for instance, do not take a house in a pleasanter place than the one you are living in or I shall doubt if you are doing His will; do not bring up your children to occupy a better position in society than yourself, or I shall not be disposed to think you are acting for the Lord’s will.
Rem Well, but that is bringing the Lord into your things.
FER All these things test you, they test where you are, you are to do all in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Ques What is the difference between doing everything in the name of the Lord Jesus and holding the Head?
FER They are two totally different things. Holding the Head is wholly in connection with the [p. 111] body, the other enters into all my individual everyday things. I think the will of God has its own specific character.
Ques Do you think the difficulty comes in because we do not recognise that we are here for the will of God?
FER Yes. Now is the judgment of this world; but the will of God is another thing; and I think everything comes in to test a man.
Ques Is that what is meant by Lydia saying, “If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord”?
FER That refers, I suppose, to the baptism. I think that she put everything into death, not herself only, but all that belonged to her. If you have taken that place I cannot understand how you can be seeking great things for your children.
Rem In the millennium blessing will be in connection with things down here, but now it is just the opposite.
FER Yes; now you have to leave the boat.
Rem A good many seem to be surprised to hear that they have not reached the Lord, as such, at all.
Ques Suppose they have only one bit of light, what would you do with them?
FER Cherish them.
Rem Well, that is a good thing.
FER The fact is, that if you have not much affection for the Lord you cannot do much. If we look at Matthew 15 the light has left the Jew and gone to the Gentile, and then in chapter 16 we have the sign of Jonas, it all marks very clearly what the moment was. The Lord says in regard to the scribes and Pharisees which were of Jerusalem, “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind”. Then the light goes to the Gentile woman, and she appeals to Him as the Son of David; the Lord would not listen to her until she took lower ground as to herself, then He answered her. To me it is a most solemn chapter,
[p. 112] whatever light there was had left the Jew, light was with the Gentiles. The Lord had exposed the fallacy of the whole system of the scribes and Pharisees, they were properly the custodians of the light, but they had turned the light into darkness. It was religion and false religion. The light goes to the Gentiles, it is outside of the scribes and Pharisees. In chapter 16 there is no sign but the sign of Jonas, and Christ leaves them and departs.
Ques What of chapter 15: 30?
FER The Lord still goes on ministering to the poor of the flock who sought Him, but what becomes evident is that He is taking another place.
Ques Is it the same as in Luke 14, there we find first those out of the streets and lanes are sought out, and then in the highways and hedges?
FER In Luke the point is the transition from law to grace, in Matthew it is the change of dispensation. Seeking a sign indicated terrible perverseness in reference to all that the Lord had done, you could not have a greater proof of wilful unbelief, it was an awful thing, the very worst thing in the eye of God. The sign of Jonas was a sign of judgment. Jonas goes to the Ninevites as a man that had been under the waves and billows, and tells them that judgment was coming upon them. The Lord condemns the generation as a wicked one. It strikes me as very beautiful to see the Lord going on ministering to the people. He does not cease, but still goes on, and yet makes evident how complete the break was with the existing order of things. I think it is wonderful to get in a few verses a showing forth of the place the Lord had.
Rem We cannot understand the true force of the gospels unless we understand the epistles. They are the last part of scripture we can make much of.
FER Yes, because you find perfection there; the epistles often deal with the saints going on badly, and we can understand imperfection better than [p. 113] perfection, because we are imperfect ourselves. Nothing is more marvellous than the gospels, you come there into the presence of perfection; of course, there was imperfection all around the Lord, but in the Lord Himself there was divine perfection in a man. I think it is interesting to see what has been before us tonight, that is, the completeness of the break with the existing order of things, and the new place the Lord takes, because it all leads on to the new thing, to what comes out in chapter 16, that is, the church.