JOHN 9,10
JOHN 9,10
Rem It appears as if there had been a spiritual work in this blind man as well as his natural eyesight being given to him.
FER I should almost think so.
Ques Would you say he was a kind of typical man in relation to the new company?
FER Yes, I think so. The point is in what the Lord says to him, “Dost thou believe on the Son of God?” Not “the Christ”, but “the Son of God”. Then the man answers, “Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him”.
Rem I can see the new company in chapters 13 and 14, but I do not quite see how it is brought in [p. 147] here. I would like to have the idea of these chapters.
FER Well, I think what you get here is the formation of the company. I do not think you get quite that in chapters 13 and 14. There the company is assumed. It is not quite the flock, as here. Here you have the one flock and the one Shepherd, answering to Jew and Gentile builded together. The point in chapter 14 is what is preparatory to their being a witness for Christ.
Rem Here it is proving His own suitability to be Shepherd.
FER Yes. In chapter to you see the Lord coming definitely into the fold to lead out the sheep. The whole chapter is not occupied with the great point that He was to be rejected, but He comes into the fold in order to lead the sheep out. Then when the sheep are led out — and they are the elect of God — there is the election from among the Gentiles brought in, and one flock is formed, with one Shepherd.
Ques What is the moral link between this chapter and 1 Corinthians 10 as to separation? The man here is brought into separation from all but Christ, and so, too, the man in 1 Corinthians to has to be separate from everything here.
FER Yes. But then in 1 Corinthians to the separation is the man’s own doing — I mean it is fellowship in the death of Christ, he takes that ground; but the point in John 9 is that the man is cast out by the Jews.
Rem But they both reach the same point.
FER Yes. You see, the Lord allowed them to cast the man out really in order to break the links which bound him to the Jew. The fact is, if they had not cast him out, you would find it extremely difficult to understand how he could have broken with them. The Jew, by his own perverseness and contrariety, brought in the counsel of God. It is difficult to understand how the church ever would have been [p. 148] formed if not for the perverseness of the Jew. I really think that those who were converted in the beginning of the Acts would have been quite content to remain where they were — to be identified still with the temple-worship. You read that “a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith”. It was just the perverseness of the Jews that forced them out.
Rem The great point in this passage is the giving up of man down here, the being characterised by having reached the Son of God.
FER Yes, I think so.
Rem But the Lord Himself goes out through death.
FER Yes, literally He did, but all through the chapter He never attributes His death to man. He says in chapter 10, “I lay down my life”; and again, “I lay down my life for the sheep”. You do not see the hand of man in it at all.
Rem And it was for His own flock.
FER Yes; for the sheep.
Rem And His death was the door for them to go out.
FER Yes, quite so.
Rem His love for them was proved in that way.
FER Yes. And “therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father”.
Rem It is His love in this sense that is presented in the Supper.
FER Yes. What is presented to us is His death, and His love in His death. You see, it is all His own act — “my body, which is given for you”, “my blood which is shed for you”.
In chapter 9 the one who is forced out really goes out before the Lord. It is in chapter 10 that the Lord [p. 149] reveals that He Himself is going out of the fold; He was about to take that course Himself. I do not think the Lord ever took any particular course consequent upon the rejection of Himself by the Jew. He only takes it as an occasion to reveal the character in which He had been acting all along. When things come out and are developed in their true character, He then reveals what had been before Him from the outset. Take, for instance, the parable of the sower; you might think that that came out consequent upon His rejection by the Jew. But no, He only reveals the character of His acting all along; He had been sowing from the outset. So here, He had been the Shepherd of the sheep all along, though He does not bring that out at first.
Rem He had really been the Shepherd of those who were His own, but it was not brought out.
FER No. The Lord really reveals what was the true object of His coming here when rejected of the Jews. You see, the Jew was tested — the very presence of the Lord down here tested him, he was bound to be tested by the presence of the Lord — but, for all that, He had really come here with a very definite object before Him.
Ques An object only known to Himself, I suppose?
FER No one knew anything about it. It could only be known by His speaking about it.
Rem And yet it was testified to in the Scriptures.
FER Well, no, I do not think that. They did not testify to the church, and that was the object for which the Lord really came. You get that coming out in the parable of the merchantman in Matthew; “one pearl of great price” is the church.
Rem What comes out in this chapter is a great advance on chapter 4, where they say, “We believe ... that this is indeed the Christ”.
FER Yes, quite so. Here it is, “Dost thou believe on the Son of God?”
[p. 150] Ques That is His title as on the other side of death?
FER Well, I think it was a title which was evidenced and confirmed in resurrection; Romans 1.
Ques And is not that the basis of the new company?
FER Yes, I think so. That is Paul’s testimony. “He preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God”.
Ques Does not that, in fact, give the nature of the blessing into which the company is brought?
FER Yes. “When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons”. That was the object for which the Son was sent forth, that we might receive sonship.
Rem Not simply that He might bring in the kingdom of God.
FER Oh, no. The kingdom of God comes in by the way, but the definite purpose of God lay underneath that, it had reference to the church.
Rem It would appear so from the passage, He “loved the church, and gave himself for it”.
Ques When the apostle preached the kingdom of God, had they to come into the church through the kingdom?
FER Well, as a matter of fact, a man must begin with the kingdom of God. He certainly could not advance one step farther if he did not accept the moral sway of God; but then I think that is only the beginning of things, and he then gets instructed as to the purpose of God.
Rem He is then in a condition to enter into the purpose of God.
Rem His coming here with a definite object before Him really invests the path of the Lord with a peculiar dignity.
FER Yes. The kingdom of God really [p. 151] belongs to this order of things, but the church belongs to the order of the new creation. The kingdom of God in itself does not consist of the new heavens and the new earth — it does not belong to the new creation. It is God assuming the reins of government, and ruling in this order of things. It is the seventh day. But that is not so with the church, which belongs to a new order of things altogether, to new creation.
Ques Are not both touched on in what the Lord says to Peter, “On this rock I will build my assembly”, and then, “I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven”?
FER Yes, I think so.
Ques In what way would you say He came into the world for “judgment”?
FER Well, in chapter 9 they excommunicated the blind man, and why? The only possible ground they could have had for it was that he had made a kind of confession of the One who had opened his eyes. But what sin could there have been in that? The Lord fully exposes their motives. He was the Light exposing everything contrary to it. The Lord was the expression of what was in the heart of God towards man, and they were not affected by the light in chapter 8; and hated what was God’s work in chapter 9. Both the light of God and the work of God exposed them fully, and things were brought to an issue: “Now is the judgment of this world”.
Ques And is not that true still?
FER I think so. In Christendom things are mixed up again, but then, I think, we have to retire from all that to realise that things have really been brought to an issue.
Rem Morally settled before God.
FER Yes. The Jew has been completely tested, and his position exposed.
Rem And that would include man generally.
FER Yes, I think so.
Ques If man under God’s culture was so completely exposed, where could other men come in?
FER But do you think that man in the present day would care for God to come near him, to come close to him? No; what I see is that they try very carefully indeed to keep God at a distance; they do not deny Him, but keep carefully at a distance.
Rem But they often speak of God’s love.
FER Yes. But their idea is that God will let them do what they like and never bring them to account. They do not understand divine love a bit. To let them run their own course, and never bring them to account, is their idea of love.
Rem It is a wonderful step onwards for this man to be placed in the company of the Son of God!
FER Yes. But that could not come to pass until that which stood on the ground of profession had been completely exposed. The coming in of the Lord had that immediate effect.
Rem And there was nothing in man.
FER No. He is affected neither by the word of God, nor by the work of God. The word of God did not subdue him in chapter 8, nor the work of God in chapter 9; they refused both.
Rem I suppose, in other words, the fig-tree has to be cut down.
FER Exactly. Man, as such, is not affected either by the word or the work of God. He is hopeless.
Rem He knows nothing more about the work of God today than at the time we are occupied with in the chapter.
FER Quite so. He may see it, in a way. Supposing a man is converted, other people see it, but they only laugh at it.
Ques What do the disciples mean when they say, “Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?”
FER They were looking at him as born in sin [p. 153] because he was born blind, it was the common Jewish idea; but the Lord tells them it was neither the man himself nor his parents.
Rem But he is brought to the front as a special object of the work of God.
FER Yes. But he had not sinned, if I may say so, absolutely or finally. “Sin” in John is the rejection of Christ. “Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father” — that is the character of sin in John, and this man had not in that way sinned nor his parents. The Jew was in danger of sinning absolutely, and in fact they had done so when they refused the light.
You get the same thing in regard to the gospel, which is “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”. When it came to man, he refused it. That is sin absolutely; there is no forgiveness for it.
Rem One experiences great difficulty in reaching the Lord in this outside place.
FER Well, in order to reach Him there you must pass through the process given in these two chapters. There is no affinity between the natural heart and God’s word and His work, and you must go through the experience presented here.
Ques Is it analogous at all to Peter’s leaving the boat?
FER Yes, it is in a way. Leaving the boat is, to some extent, analogous to leaving the fold, as here.
Rem Only now there is no boat.
FER No. But you have come to the apprehension of Christ in the character in which He came.
Ques. As “good shepherd”?
FER Yes. But He came to lead the sheep out, not to leave them in the fold. He puts them forth. They had to be led out of the system of ordinances in which they were found as Jews, and they had to be relieved from the judgment of death that rested on [p. 154] them. These two things were essential to the sheep; they were to be saved, and to go in and out and find pasture.
Rem How very little we have touched the Son of God outside of everything!
FER Yes. But the moment we touch Him in that way, reach Him in that way, we reach the church.
Ques Is it that you live by faith of Him, as in 1 John 5: 5, “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?”
FER That is touching Him by faith; but here it brings in quite another thought. You reach Him in His nature, and that is where the truth of the church comes in.
Rem I suppose the character of a sheep is indicated by his partaking of the divine nature: “I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father”.
Rem That is a most wonderful statement.
FER Yes. It is something like what is in Galatians, “When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law”; they had to be redeemed out of that position in order that they might receive sonship. That is very analogous to John 10.
Ques What is the force of His entering in by the door into the sheepfold?
FER The answer is in what has just been quoted. It is not simply that He was made of a woman, but He was made under the law, and that in order that He might redeem His sheep out of it. They were brought into the new position, and because they are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into their hearts. It is the power of the Holy Spirit which qualifies for the new position. Therefore the Lord, as in this chapter, comes into the fold — He is made under the law — so that He may lead out the sheep, and when [p. 155] that is done He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him.
Ques Would you compare that with what you get in chapter 5, the voice of the Son of God in death; they know His voice?
FER Yes, quite so. But then He has come into death that we may be relieved from the pressure of it.
Ques “To him the porter openeth” — what is that?
FER Well, the great point in that is that He came into the fold legitimately, and therefore the porter opened to Him.
Ques It has been said that the porter is the Holy Spirit?
FER I do not see that that is the idea. It is a figurative expression, and is used to convey the teaching that He came into the fold in a legitimate way that He might have access to the sheep. He came after the divine order.
Ques Is there not a good deal the thought in people’s minds as to following the Lord down here without death?
Rem They think they can follow Him naturally.
FER Yes. There are sentimental books by the score putting Christ as an example. It is a very remarkable thing to see in the gospels that the Lord never gave much encouragement to volunteers. He called a man to follow Him, but if a man volunteered to follow Him, He put the difficulties before him. You see, if a man sets out to follow the Lord without invitation, he follows Him as long as it pleases himself; but what is the good of that?
Rem Self-confidence must be broken down.
FER Yes; and all that kind of thing is a secret between oneself and the Lord, and one does not care to talk much about it. A man may be tested by the difficulties, but if he has really counted the cost he is prepared for them.
Ques “That they which see might be made blind” — what is that?
FER I suppose He is referring to their self-confidence. Jesus had said, “For judgment I am come into this world”. He would judge the people who “see”, who claimed to be competent to judge.
Ques Do you think it is when the Lord is gone out of the fold that He becomes the door into a new world?
FER I think so. He takes up another figure, it is no longer a fold. The idea of a fold is dropped.
Ques I suppose the going “in and out” would indicate liberty.
FER Yes, quite so. He came into the fold to lead the elect of God out of the legal system of things, and to relieve them from the pressure of death which was upon them. You get the idea of it in Colossians 2, “Having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us ... and having spoiled principalities and powers”. “And you ... hath he quickened”, having done all that.
Rem And in the assembly we are in a position outside of all that has to do with our responsible life here.
FER Quite so; you appreciate the good of the “one flock” and the “one shepherd”. Christ has come into this scene in order to lead us out of it.
Ques “Risen with Christ” really applies to the assembly, not to the individual?
FER Yes. The moment you come to Jordan, you properly drop all that is individual to become identified with the ark of the covenant, and then you come on to what is corporate and collective; and therefore the manna ceases, because it is connected with the individual path, and you come to the “old corn of the land”. That is not for us individually, but collectively in a certain sense.
Ques Do you not think that the individual line so [p. 157] often detains us that we do not get on to the line of God’s purpose?
Rem But we have a good deal to learn individually.
FER Yes. We have to learn everything individually; and Scripture always takes up the part which is individual before it touches what is collective.
Ques And the brazen serpent is individual?
FER - Yes. The brazen serpent is properly for the land — it closes up the ground of responsibility, and they enter the land in virtue of a new life. Life is individual, and therefore the truth of it comes out in the wilderness, but you do not get the sphere of life until you get through Jordan. There are a vast number of Christians who know and enjoy life individually, but who never will know what the land is this side of heaven. The secret is that they give the preference to social life. They want piety in their social life. But if you cross Jordan, you are brought to the assembly, and then the social thing becomes quite secondary. You are identified with the ark of the covenant, and the prominent point is not death, but resurrection. By the light of Christ and the assembly you know how to carry out the social relations; and that is why the natural relationships are brought out in Colossians and Ephesians, to put them in their proper place in relation to the assembly, or rather to Christ. The assembly is collective, and everything is to be carried out in the light of it, and the relation of Christ to the church becomes the standard even for man and wife.
Rem I do not come to Him as “Lord” in the assembly.
FER But you come to Him as the Living Stone. You come to Him in His identification with us. As Lord He is not identified with us. “Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well”. He is that to us individually, but as the Living Stone He is [p. 158] identified with us and we with Him. It is of all moment, if you want to understand anything at all about the assembly, to see His identification with us, and ours with Him. “He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one”.
Rem That is beyond the thought of the Saviour.
FER Yes. You have tasted that the Lord is gracious, and then “To whom coming, as unto a living stone”, etc.; that is the next step.
Ques Does it not all hang upon verse 10: “that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly”?
FER They could not be in it at all except as relieved from death.
Ques What is “more abundantly”?
FER Certainly not the idea of two infusions of it. It is the character of it.
Ques Alluding to the Spirit’s coming, I suppose?
FER Yes, I think so.
Ques In its full character?
FER Yes, the “well of water springing up into everlasting life”. They were to have it in its fulness, not in any stinted way.
Ques What is the force of the verse in chapter 14, “Because I live, ye shall live also”?
FER You live in correspondence to Him, in concert with Him.
Ques That is more than mere dependence?
FER Oh, yes. You are completely outside the whole course of things down here. He goes on to say, “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”. It was what separated Him from the world. He never was in the world; He was in the Father, and then you are “in me”. Even when He was in the world He lived because of the Father.
[p. 159] Rem In chapter 16 He lives in another sphere and He associates us with Him in it.
FER Yes; and He says, “I will come to you”. Everything was so clear that He could come to them. They had no comfort in the world, but He says, “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”, and “because I live, ye shall live also”.
You may depend upon it there is nothing less known than Christianity in the full power of it.
Rem And we are conscious of how little we have entered into it.
FER Yes. I feel how little I know what it is to have the Lord on our side. I have been greatly encouraged lately, in connection with Philippians, to see how the Spirit of God by the apostle insists upon it, when everything had come to confusion in the church. What is depicted in chapter 1 is not a very exhilarating state of things: they were preaching Christ of envy and strife; even the apostle himself was under the world-power. It was a state of things very like the present time: the church today is under the world-power. But when you come to chapter 2 you find him exhorting the saints to be “blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation”. The Christian company at Philippi was to come out in all its brightness: “among whom ye shine as lights in the world”. It is very encouraging at the present time, even if you take into account the ruined state of the church. You can see a company coming out in the proper brightness of the church.
Rem That is very encouraging. And that is the special point for which the Lord is working at the present time.
FER Yes; because He is coming. I think there is the energy of the Spirit of God working down here, and you are encouraged in God — you do not look at man.
[p. 160] Paul was under the world-power, and that is where the church has been ever since. They have tried to govern the world-power — that is what Roman Catholicism has tried to do — but, nevertheless, it has turned the other way. Even in this country the head of the church is the queen. At the beginning of the Acts the church was opposed, not by the world-power, but by the religious power: the high priest and the council; but all that religious power was scattered to the winds. And then the effort was to corrupt the truth by introducing a Judaising element — that was at Corinth — and then it comes under the world-power. The apostle was bound at Rome.
Rem “With the soldier who kept him”.
FER Yes. He was the symbol of the world-power. But the word of God was not bound, and so he wanted the Philippians to come out in all the first brightness of the church.
Rem Her shining “was like unto a stone most precious”.
FER Yes. As he says here, “among whom ye shine as lights in the world”.
What comes out in John 10 is John’s peculiar way of presenting the church. Paul would tell you of the body and the Head, but John tells you about the sheep and the Shepherd. It is the same thing, the same persons are spoken of — they present the same thing in different lights. The Lord is speaking here to those who had the idea of the flock; Israel was Jehovah’s flock, but now the Lord is revealing a flock and a Shepherd of a new character.
Ques Is it the same as the true Vine?
FER Oh, no; that is a different idea altogether. He speaks there of the professing thing. Israel had been the vine, but the moment Christ came here, He was the Vine, and then fruit-bearing depended upon their being identified with Him. Here He is the good [p. 161] Shepherd. He does not speak of Himself in that character at the beginning of the chapter; the proof and evidence of His being the good Shepherd is that He gave His life for the sheep. They were to be relieved from the pressure of death, they were to be saved, and to go in and out, and find pasture.