JOHN 15 (1)
JOHN 15 (1)
FER What we really get here practically is that the testimony for God was limited to one Man. God had left a nation here, but the nation was no longer a testimony. Now it was one Man that was the testimony.
Rem As He says here, “I am the true vine” — the “I” is emphatic.
FER Yes; they might be the branches, but the testimony had to begin with the Vine; there could be no branches if there were not a Vine. There had been a nation, Israel had been the vine, God had brought a vine out of Egypt and planted it in His vineyard, but there was, at all events, no fruit-bearing there, and now we get the truth, and the truth is that one Man is the Vine — “I am the true vine”. I do not quite think that one could say that Christ bore fruit in that way, that would not be quite the thing, but He became the source of all fruit; in becoming the Vine He became the source of all fruit.
Rem The fruit really came out of the branches.
FER Yes; but He was the stock, and the source and root of it.
Rem Psalm 1 speaks of “bringing forth his fruit in his season”.
FER Yes; that is a godly man.
Ques You speak of the godly man in an abstract way?
FER Yes; it is typical of a class.
Rem There would be that which was fruit for the Father in Him as a Man here?
FER Yes, I think so; but, in the gospel [p. 309] of John especially, He is not quite spoken of as bearing fruit.
Rem In the actual vine neither the root nor the main stem ever bears fruit.
FER No; I think the Lord here takes the place of source of everything.
Ques “He brought a vine out of Egypt” — what is that?
FER Well, I think the vine ought to have produced fruit, but it did not produce fruit.
Rem It brought forth wild grapes — fruit to itself.
FER Quite so; there was no fruit to God; and then Israel was no benefit to anyone, neither to themselves, nor to the nations, nor to anyone, and the name of the Lord was blasphemed through them.
Ques And they were really set here in testimony that God should be made known by them?
FER I think so; and if Israel had held to their place of faithfulness to Jehovah, they were to have been a testimony to Jehovah, and it would at the same time have ensured their own blessing and prosperity.
Rem The church now is the vessel of the testimony, and Israel was to have been that on their own line.
FER I do not think you can speak of Christ bearing fruit exactly, but if there is any fruit at all for God, Christ is the source of it.
Ques And the thought of a vine is for earth?
FER Well, there would be no meaning in a vine in heaven. Of course this primarily applied to the disciples, but afterwards I think the chapter widens out a little. They were at the moment specially in view, but I think there is room left for the circle to widen; the mind of God was not limited to the disciples. I think they were representative in that way.
Ques What do you understand by fruit?
FER I think fruit is that which is agreeable to God; it is not just service rendered to Him, but [p. 310] what comes out spontaneously. There is nothing artificial about fruit — it is spontaneous. A tree under healthy conditions naturally brings forth fruit; supposing the conditions to be favourable and healthy, a vine must bear fruit, it is always fruitful. It is a most remarkable thing in regard to the vine that, except for the fruit, it is the most worthless of things, you cannot get even a rod from it.
Rem Only fit for the burning?
FER Yes; fruit, in a certain sense, becomes testimony; there is, first of all, fruit, then testimony — testimony to man, if you can understand me. Supposing that the fruit of the Spirit was really being produced by the saints, “love, joy, peace”, etc., all that kind of thing — if saints were really producing these things there would be testimony to mankind. It is testimony to man in the very fact of its being fruit for God. Supposing Israel had been filled with praise and thanksgiving to God in the sense of His goodness and so on, they would have been a testimony to men in the very fact of their bringing forth fruit for God. I think the mistake has been made sometimes of limiting the testimony to preaching, and all that kind of thing, instead of its being all that is moral. It is fruit for God, that is the testimony for man, it is the testimony, the proof of vitality.
Ques “My Father is the husbandman”, what is that?
FER I think that discipline, and all that kind of thing, is the work of the Father in view of the fruit-bearing, He disciplines us to that end.
Ques Is it in any way akin to Hebrews 12?
FER Yes, I think so.
Ques And what is the end of His discipline in Hebrews 12? That we might be partakers of His holiness?
FER Yes; but also to prove to you that you are Sons.
Ques What about “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away”?
FER Well, that is an extreme case; but every fruit-bearing branch He purgeth that it may bring forth more fruit.
Ques What do you take that to be, “Every branch in me”?
FER I take that to be association; it refers to the association, association with Christ for the moment; He was divine, He took that place on the earth, and there might be association with Him where there was no vitality, and although in a certain sense that one was a branch, he would be taken away.
Rem It has been spoken of as profession.
FER They walked no more with Him — they could not stand the pressure and all that kind of thing.
Ques Fruit is really Christ coming out; there could not be anything in the vine but Christ, and the source of everything was in the vine, and nothing could come out as fruit but what was in the vine.
Rem What comes out now in the saints is the knowledge of the Father, His Father.
FER Yes; everything now is in relation to Christ. Note that He says, My Father, not the Father, the Father does all in relation to Christ, and He does it as “My Father”. I think the object of the Father’s discipline is that we might be partakers of His holiness, that we might be here more truly representative of Christ — the purging and all that kind of thing, so that the saints might be here really representing Christ. All the Father’s dealings have reference to Christ.
Ques Would you connect “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away” with the latter part of 1 Corinthians 11?
FER No, I would not; that was referring to the Lord’s discipline of Christians, it has reference to [p. 312] those who were really saints. I think that Christ takes account of the misuse of the body; if you do not use your body aright, I think Christ takes account of it. If a Christian gives licence to his body, becomes drunken, or anything of that kind, my impression is that Christ will take account of it, and will deal with the body; that was the case with the Corinthians themselves, “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep”. But I should imagine they were really saints; I think, too, it is a proof that there is no vital connection if a branch is taken away, it is cast into the fire and burned. If there is vital connection, there must be fruit. I think the great point was that there should be nothing there but what was vital, and every branch which did not bear fruit, useless branches, well, the point was to get rid of them, and then with regard to branches which did bear fruit, it was important that they should increase in fruit-bearing. In chapter 14 you get the Lord’s side, but here you get our side; it is the subjective side here all through the chapter. In chapter 14 it is the objective side, “I will come to you”.
Ques John’s line is subjective?
FER Yes; fruit-bearing is the evidence of life. The question of life is taken up in the early part of the gospel, and now you come to the effect of life, that is, fruit-bearing.
Ques Has not verse 2 been used to show that even saved persons may perish?
FER Well, I do not see that there is much comfort in that. I cannot conceive what comfort it is to hold the possibility of perishing. I do not see that it can minister happiness to anyone. As a matter of fact, the whole point in this chapter depends upon life, not salvation, and it must be evident that only those who have life can, in the very nature of things, be fruit-bearers for God. Many people have no idea of anything beyond salvation.
Ques Is there a connection between “He purgeth it” and “Now ye are clean”?
FER I should not myself have put the two thoughts together; as to “Now ye are clean” — a thing that is clean, is clean in the very nature of it.
Rem It should be “already clean”.
Ques They had been born of water and of the Spirit?
FER Well, it goes even further than that. I think the Lord refers to the word that He had spoken to them; it was not only that they were born again as the work of the Spirit; they were clean by the word which He had spoken to them, it is a further thing. “I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them”.
Ques But that is where it began in new birth?
FER Yes; it was, in the very nature of the thing, clean. You see, “holiness by faith”, and all that kind of thing, is really wrong at the root of it. The great point in Scripture with regard to holiness is that there is something from God which characterises the very nature of it. I cannot possibly be holy except there is that which is clean in the nature of it. “And you ... hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight”. Well, but that involves two men; it is not one man but two men: in the body of His flesh — that is one man, the distance has disappeared through the removal of the one man; but that is effected in order to present another man, it is not the same man. It is not the man that went “in the body of his flesh through death”, but another man brought in. It is “to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable” — it is clean in that sense. So with the passage spoken of in Hebrews 12, you are to become partakers of the divine nature, but it would not be possible unless there was the root of the thing [p. 314] there. You may grow to it, of course; it has to do with the individual.
Rem It is so contradictory even in its name; my believing that I am holy will not make me holy.
FER Yes, and there is another thing, what is the object of the faith? If you speak of having things by faith, it is the faith of something; in this case you are obliged to have the object in yourself. I cannot see that we have anything revealed in that sense.
Ques Not an object, you mean?
FER No, not in connection with holiness, so far as I see. You believe in God, but then it is God that justifies — you are justified by faith. So too you are risen together with Christ by faith; and the Christ dwells in your heart, too, by faith — but you cannot have the same thing in holiness that I see. My own impression is that holiness is the outcome of love, it works in that way. I see that in the epistle to the Thessalonians, they were to “abound in love one toward another ... to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father” — it works in that way.
You see the figure of the vine carried on down to the end of verse 6; then in verse 7 you get, “If ye abide in me” — it is no longer a question of the vine. I think verse 7 indicates a change; I think it refers to the position which the Lord had taken down here, and to their connection with Him in that position. I think the thing began very small; everything of God begins very small; the beginning of His intervention in grace was a Babe laid in a manger because there was no room for Him in the inn. Then here fruit-bearing begins with the Man. He was the Vine; it did not begin with the nation. Christianity itself began with one Man, but Christianity has become a very great factor in the history of the world. It may be the greatest imposture, as far as they can see, and yet, after all, it has been a very great factor in the world [p. 315] and in the history of the world. It has produced very great results, there is no doubt about that for a moment, and yet if you come to the outset of it, it began with one Man.
Rem “Cast forth as a branch” — that could not be seen now practically.
FER No, not in the same way, but it will be in the future; we have such an anomalous state of things now, but we never get this state of things contemplated in John, at any rate in the gospel. He does warn you about deceivers and antichrists in his epistle.
Ques Would not Ananias and Sapphira have been instances of branches cast forth?
FER Well, I think it is just possible that Ananias and Sapphira might have been Christians; I could not positively say they were not, but they were taken away most certainly.
It is striking to see that in chapter 14 you have the Comforter continuing with you for ever, and then, when you come to chapter 15 the company must be suitable — clean and morally representative of Christ — that is what comes out in this chapter. They were to continue in His love, even as He had kept His Father’s commandments, and abode in His love. They were to be here morally a continuation of Christ; and one thing is certain of all of us, that we cannot possibly surpass Christ. “Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples” — “if ye abide in me”. Continuance was to be the test; I think that is the idea of continuance in John, it is the test. Many people may attach themselves to Christ and Christianity, but continuance becomes the test of their reality.
Rem It is the test still.
FER If you continue — it seems to express more than abide.
Ques Has it the same meaning as in Hebrews?
FER Well, an “if” always paves the way for some necessary consequence. “If ye continue in me, and my words continue in you, ye shall ask what ye will” — it is the necessary moral consequence.
Rem It is similar to that verse you were mentioning in Colossians. “You ... hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh ... if ye continue in the faith”.
FER Yes; I think the great point with the Colossians was that they were being beset with philosophy; now the antidote to philosophy is faith and love; they were to continue in faith, and they were not to be moved away from the hope of the gospel. Faith brings in the mind of God, and hope connects itself with the intervention of God; these are the two principles that connect a person with God. Well, if you have got faith and hope, you will not go in for philosophy, which shuts God out. It excludes God, it excludes anything like the intervention of God. It may allow the existence of God, but philosophy depends entirely on reason in man becoming predominant, everything is to be ordered by reason.
Rem And yet many true Christians have fallen into it?
FER Yes; I do not think the Colossians had fallen into it, but they were liable to do so, and so he brings in the “if” — “if ye continue”. I am sure the real test is continuance.
Ques What is the asking in view of here?
FER I cannot conceive the idea that it could be asking for anything but that which would have reference to the promotion of Christ. I cannot conceive any other kind of asking coming into the chapter.
Ques Not at all what we stand in need of in our daily path?
FER Oh, no, not at all; the point in the chapter is the continuance of Christ here, and the state and condition of the saints, so that they could be here really in fruit-bearing and testimony. The asking could only have reference to the promotion of Christ.
[p. 317] You get the same kind of thing in Ephesians, the heart there is governed by the Christ; if the Christ is dwelling in your heart then you could have no object to ask for but Christ. He is to dwell in your heart by faith — the Christ in all His fulness.
Rem “Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart”.
FER Quite so; that is the spirit of it. If the Christ is dwelling in your heart by faith you are delighted in Him, and He is the desire of your heart, and you get it too.
Ques What is the continuation of Christ here?
FER You would not have anything else than Christ here, and it must be Christ in continuation. You could neither have anything less nor anything more than Christ here. Now the church “is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”, and the body is that in which He Himself is expressed. My body is that in which I am expressed; you cannot see me, no man can see me — you can see my body.
Ques. What is “me”?
FER Well, supposing I die, what do you see? Why, my body.
Ques But you would not be there?
FER No; a man’s body is that in which he is expressed, and so with the church, it is that in which Christ is expressed. You get the same principle coming out here in this chapter, it is the continuance of Christ down here; they were to be His disciples, the world would have to know they were His disciples because they were so like Him that it was manifest they had learnt of Him.
Rem “They took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus”?
FER That, I think, was more recognition, it is not moral there; here, the thought is entirely moral all through the chapter, they were to be morally representative of Christ. “If ye keep my commandments,
[p. 318] ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full”. This is a great chapter in that way, because it reveals to us that the Lord had joy here — “that my joy may continue with you” — the thoughts in the chapter are perfectly wonderful. The sad thing is that there is so much that is obstructive in us. It is a great grief to me, one seems to get baffled almost at every turn. It seems to me that it would be almost impossible for the Lord to have been with the Father and yet not to have had joy.
Rem “In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father”.
FER Yes; “in thy presence is fulness of joy”, I think that must have been the joy of the Lord down here, He could not have been with the Father and not have had joy.
Ques It was His own personal joy with the Father?
FER Yes; He had grief enough on this side, but on that side it must have been always joy — nothing to cloud it in Him, nothing to baffle Him in that way. The Lord could enter into a thousand things down here, the sorrow and the wickedness of man down here, but certainly there was another side to Him, a side where there was unclouded joy. “That my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full”. I suppose that the Lord took things moment by moment, but however that might be, there must have been the anticipation with Him of what lay in the end of His pathway — the disciples could have no part in that; everything was clear for them. The Lord had anticipated everything for them, but when the moment came for Him to look the thing in the face, there was something very different from joy for Him.
Ques Is it really the joy which He had that is to [p. 319] be ours?
FER Oh, it is personal, it is His joy. Here He was anxious to bring it out, and to manifest it. I think nothing can be more wonderful than the extraordinary patience of the Lord to them down here, when you consider how dull they were, and how incapable of entering into His mind.
Rem He said, “I have a baptism to be baptised with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished”. He was anxious in that sense to clear the way.
FER There are two things which come out in this chapter — two principles — love and joy. There is not much else in the chapter than that they had a sphere down here where it was possible for love to be in exercise, and they were His friends. But the two things in the chapter are love and joy, and then you get fruit. I think we cannot be sufficiently thankful to God for being in any way set free from things that would hinder our association together, that we should be set free from associations and influences which are incompatible with being in the Christian circle. It is immense deliverance really when we are free for that circle; but what I feel, at the same time, is that one has to be thankful to be brought into a fellowship which is not inconsistent with the truth; not that I would make much of “brethren” at all.
Rem He speaks in chapter 17 of “my joy”. “That they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves” — the Lord counts on our having joy. “That your joy might be full” — nothing to cloud it in that sense.
FER You know, I think we have very little touched life, people have not travelled the right road to it, and therefore it is but little known. It is much talked about, I know, but very little known.
Ques What do you mean by the right road?
FER We do not see the great importance of the kingdom, and you cannot touch life without the kingdom.
[p. 320] It is the kingdom that leads you to life — people want the kingdom. I do not know whether that makes things much clearer.
Rem You must open that too a little.
FER What I see is that the first effect of grace is to bring you into the kingdom, where you get two things: direction from the Lord, and the support of the Spirit — that is clear, I think. The Lord is the source of direction because He is the object of faith, but the Spirit is for support, you get “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”. The effect of the direction of the Lord is to lead you into the Christian circle — there it is that you come into life; if He directs you He must direct you into the will of the Father, into the church, and that means you are completely delivered from the world; the will of the Father is put in antithesis to the world. The will of the Father is the church, it is nothing else that I know of. The direction of the Lord leads into the Christian circle, into the church, and that is the road that people have to go; and if they are not going that road, it proves that they have not come to the Lord, they are looking to their fellow-men for guidance, and that sort of thing. When trouble comes they turn to men, that is too often the condition of people. Why have they not got direction from the Lord? The Lord can direct under any circumstances whatever.
Ques You do not speak of direction as to our own circumstances down here, business, and so on?
FER No; it is not a question of temporal circumstances. If you were in faith your circumstances would not trouble you. You have everything through the Lord, and then the direction comes through the Lord — the Lord is supreme in the kingdom. He is there, and He directs and guides the saints, and you have everything through Him — you cannot touch anything save through Him. He directs you that you may be brought into the church, you have to get it [p. 321] that way, and where people do not come into the church (of course, I am not speaking of the outward thing, the shell — but in their souls), you may be sure they are defective with regard to the kingdom.
Ques What scripture would you give us for that?
Rem Paul was preaching the kingdom.
FER Yes; whatever does the kingdom exist for — what is the meaning or application of the kingdom, if it is not for the saints? There is the support of the Spirit, but then, on the other side, direction. The fact is the kingdom is simply there for the church — the kingdom is subsidiary to the church, that is as plain as possible in Matthew 16 . In chapter 13 the kingdom is looked at as a pearl of great price — that is a similitude of the kingdom, but the keys of the kingdom are committed to Peter, the kingdom is to be there for the church.
Ques Is Moses, as “king in Jeshurun”, a type of Christ?
FER A type of the authority of Christ. It is a most wonderful thing that there is a point in heaven from which you can get your guidance, so that you need never fear a single thing; you are perfectly certain to get guidance from there, and it will direct you into all the will of God. When you reach Ephesians, “the Christ” (that is how it should read) dwells in your hearts for testimony, you come out in testimony here; “the Christ” dwells in your heart by faith — it is the testimony of “the Christ” Romans is the light of Christ, Colossians gives you the substance, and in Ephesians you have the fulness of the testimony.
Ques Is there a difference between life and eternal life?
Ques Do you get the thought of eternal life in connection with the company?
FER Yes; the flock — “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish”, chapter 10.
[p. 322] Ques But is not that the assembly, or necessary to the truth of the assembly?
FER The Lord is leading them on to that, but if you talk of the assembly, you must come on to chapters 14 and 15 but of course it is not the same company literally. The Lord shows the dimensions which the company was going to take in chapter 10, “Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring” — the dimensions of the company were to be greatly enlarged. Of course these chapters are applicable primarily to the disciples, but at the same time you get the assembly, “I will come to you” — that is the assembly. Now when you come to this chapter it is the other side, it is the characteristics of the company. If everybody in fellowship were to be greatly exercised to see that they were really in the truth of this chapter, it would have a good effect. As to social classes among the saints, and business relationships, and happy parties, and cliques, I would like to see them all completely smashed up.
There is one thing about the commandments of Christ which we specially value, His commandments are the expression of Himself. I think they are the expression of His pleasure, and if you do not keep His commandments, you do not know His pleasure. The Father’s commandments were the expression of the Father’s will and pleasure. I think love delights in the thought of being here for His pleasure. I want to be here for His pleasure, and His commandments are the expression of His pleasure. “I know that his commandment is life eternal”, that is what the Lord says of the Father’s commandment, and His pleasure was to do whatever the Father commanded Him. It is a very great thing to be conscious of the extent and end of the commandments; the end and extent of the Father’s commandment was life eternal, and so, too, the end and extent of every commandment of Christ was our well-being and blessing, that is His [p. 323] commandment. We are to be to one another what Christ is to us, and we cannot be that unless we appreciate in some measure how indispensable Christ is to us, otherwise it would be just legal, instead of being our pleasure.
Rem Separation from associations would come in?
FER Well, I think that comes in in connection with the purging. We are chastened that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Ques Speaking about the Lord’s direction, we should not get that without dependence?
FER No; you must have a single eye, you must be looking to the Lord and to no one else.