THE RESPONSIBLE AND THE SUBJECTIVE SIDES IN THE ASSEMBLY
[p. 423] THE RESPONSIBLE AND THE SUBJECTIVE SIDES IN THE ASSEMBLY
Matthew 1:20 - 24; Matthew 2:13-15; Matthew 2:19-23; Luke 1:46 - 55
JT It is in mind to compare a little the beginnings of these two gospels, the first having reference to the governing side in the assembly, the male side; the other, to the affectionate, subjective side; both combining according to the teaching of the Lord in our souls. So that we have three communications made to Joseph in Matthew and none to Mary, whereas Mary is more prominent in Luke. The instruction would be that the believers in a locality are taken account of responsibly; and in Joseph we have an example of entire submission to divine communications, and to divine indications too; without such we shall have derangement and cleavage. So that it says of Joseph in the passage read in the first chapter, that he “having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him”, and then in the next chapter: “And, having arisen, he took to him the little child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt”, and then: “And he arose and took to him the little child and its mother, and came into the land of Israel”. He is thus representative, it seems, of the more responsible element, whereas in Luke 1:38, Zacharias who represents this, fails; and Mary not only says: “Behold the bondmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to thy word”, but she has a composition; she immediately adds to the service of God. If the responsible, ruling side is subject and trustworthy, the subjective side will come into line, so that the service of God is continued in obedience and trustworthiness in those that are responsible.
FSM Is it significant that Joseph is referred to in Matthew as a righteous man, at the very introduction of his [p. 424] name?
JT Well, I thought of that; “being a righteous man”, it is said: and would you not say that the word of the Lord to John the baptist later, “thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15), is also significant?
F.S.M. Yes, indeed!
JT The assembly, having in view its government and order and conflict too, makes much of righteousness and the dominance of the Lord so that there is no room in it at all for man’s will. Those here mentioned are representative of the line from Abraham down, and in verse 16 Joseph is brought in: “and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ”. So that he has an outstanding place, and as a righteous man he is morally entitled to it.
JCE Why do we get these references to a dream?
JT It is an established means, a condition of mind that God takes advantage of to speak to man. It would seem as if his will is out of the way, as if there is more room for God to operate. We have, for instance, the Lord came to Ananias in Acts 9; it was not in a dream, and Ananias questioned the Lord.
JCE It is only Matthew that gives us that Pilate’s wife suffered many things in a dream (Matthew 27:19).
TH Would you say that whenever the Lord has anything on hand, He will indicate it to the responsible element?
JT That is good. He will not go past any of us in the position of responsibility except there is a moral reason for it. Joseph was obviously the responsible person; the Lord took him on. “An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream” and in the subsequent appearings, also it is angelic: that is, he is capable of receiving communications through another.
TH Even if those communications came in a providential way, not necessarily [p. 425] of the Spirit?
JT The idea I think is representation of God as in Revelation 1:1, God “sending by his angel, to his bondman John”. I think it is the idea of representation, that you can receive from God through another; it is a very important matter in assembly services that we receive testimony from others.
FSM So is trustworthiness evidenced by his implicit obedience? In the first instance, he did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him; and in the next two he took to him the little Child and His mother. There is absolute obedience to the word.
JT Quite so: that is a good point, because, were he governed by his natural affections, he would put the mother first. He puts the little Child first according to the word of the angel. That would show he is spiritual too; the instructions he is obeying are spiritual. To place the little Child before His mother is a spiritual touch. Those who are responsible in the assembly must progress and learn to be spiritual, and put the Lord before anything, oneself, or one’s wife or children, whatever it may be.
WW It says, “While he pondered on these things, behold an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream”.
JT That is good. It is important to ponder things. Mary, we are told by Luke, kept these things in her mind and pondered them in her heart; so that they were both suitable. It is better to do that than to take counsel with another immediately. There is a good deal of taking counsel with others which is right to a point, after we have been to the Lord. I believe it is much better in a crisis for brethren to go to the Lord, because, if it is a crisis, the moral condition is to be tested. We do not go to each other, we go to the Lord first; then come together. “In the multitude of counsellors there is safety” (Proverbs 11:14), and then each of the brethren will be able to speak of his impressions from the Lord.
“While he pondered on these things”, as if the Lord were to honour that matter, the pondering.
TH This would be a very exercising situation, would it not? That is, the issue was in doubt in Joseph’s mind, whether it was of God or not; and I think what you say is very important as to seeking the Lord in regard of a matter, being with the Lord as it presents itself, and not seeking counsel with one another.
JT I am sure it is. Counsel with one another comes in in its place because we are told: “In the multitude of counsellors there is safety”, but to apply to a brother as soon as something happens is a doubtful procedure. Get to the Lord first and let the other brother get to the Lord.
FSM Is that how we become of one mind in the Lord?
JT Very good: quite so. We may be sure that Joseph and Mary took counsel about all these things in time, and how sure they would both be, each having to do with the Lord about it!
FAW Is it suggestive that there is a quotation from Scripture before Joseph’s awakening? Would it suggest that the scriptures would come in to confirm?
JT Yes, the quotation from Isaiah; it is remarkable that the Spirit of God puts that in before He tells us about Joseph awaking. It is a very interesting bit to heaven. The composition of this bit must have been of the supremest care in heaven; so much entered into it. The natural mind, and Satan too, would be so ready to take advantage of it; the natural mind is shut out so effectively. Before Joseph’s obedience is stated, the scripture from Isaiah is brought forward to assure our hearts that all is well. Many things of this kind come up, of lesser importance of course, designedly obscure, to bring out what there is to bring out, the work of God in the saints. The thing happens and you are ready for it, you know what to do; so that it is [p. 427] always a question of state. If people get wrong thoughts it is a question of state.
JHT Would you say that the interpretation of Emmanuel would suggest the state with him? It was not interpreted to Ahaz in Isaiah 7, was it?
JT Does he not act accordingly? Trustworthiness seems to be the next point after the man’s integrity is shown. He is an example for us in all assembly matters. His personal integrity is brought out first; then he is worthy of the trust. If a man behaves well in a crisis, the Lord will trust him with something. Do you think so?
JHT I wondered whether the interpretation would strengthen his confidence enabling him to go forward: “God with us”.
JT God was certainly with him: quite so. Did he not know it? For it is always really a question of a spiritual lead given — how one needs God with him! A step on the way may be so momentous. How serious it would be if Joseph awaked doubting, for in truth he was immediately in charge of the matter as the husband of Mary.
FSM Is the prophetic word valuable in a crisis? I was thinking how it is put here, a word by the Lord through the prophet, both in chapter 1:22, and in chapter 2:15, words by the Lord through the prophet. Is there significance in that?
JT I think there is; tell us a little more.
FSM I was only thinking that the inspired scriptures in a given moment, in a crisis, come in in such power as to confirm the brother who is to take responsibility.
JT And then the person through whom it comes, the prophet. One has often noticed how the persons used by the Spirit of God in the Old Testament are brought down to us, showing how God brings His servants, those who have served well, forward in any current matter. I was wondering whether you had in mind the Spirit’s lead now amongst us in prophetic service: Scripture shows that we are in difficult times, perilous times, and is the prophetic service not provided to meet the situation as it is?
FSM I wondered whether that might be involved in this suggestion by the prophet.
JT Ahaz was a miserable leader: he was really in Joseph’s position, was he not? In Isaiah 7, he was head of the house of David, and the passage speaks much of headship. He would not ask for a sign; he was too pious, a kind of fleshly-mindedness: and Jehovah says, I will give you a sign — as if to say, you are not to have anything to do with it, it is outside your ability. “The virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son” (Isaiah 7:14). That is, it would all be the subjective side, the ruling side being altogether in failure; and that is often how the testimony is carried on. There is nothing said as to divine power in Isaiah 7; all the credit is to the virgin. That is a very suggestive thought for us. Even though there may not be distinguished gift or ability amongst the leading brothers, “Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:8). Christ is brought forth nevertheless. Very often the leading ones stand in His way, as Ahaz was doing.
HHW Would it encourage Joseph to be addressed as “son of David”?
JT That is another point of importance. He is shown in his full place of genealogy, showing he is on the line of rule, for that is the principle. The chapter begins with that, “Son of David, Son of Abraham”. David is the prominent thought. Each brother ought to take that to heart, you know, as to whether he belongs to the line of rule. The man from the outset is in that place. How apt it is to Christ, the Son of David, gathering up in Himself all that David stood for, that principle! But here, Joseph is his son in the sense of being righteous, a man who pondered things and [p. 429] became spiritual, putting the little Child before His mother according to instructions.
Ques Why should it be “Son of David, Son of Abraham”?
JT It is to link on the genealogy with Abraham, but it is the ruling thought, the royal line. It is a peculiar word, it is the genesis really of Jesus Christ; so that it begins with David, because it is a question of government: Matthew has government in mind.
TH So would you say that in every locality as that rule is in evidence, the little Child should appear, what is of God should appear?
JT Exactly. It is not the Infant as in Luke, it is a little more developed thought. Christ has a place more quickly in Matthew.
TH There is something to which God can commit the Child.
JT Quite so. Even the Child is under his care.
TH This would be largely a protective matter.
JT Exactly. No charge could be greater, and the passage shews he was equal to the responsibility. So that where you have the ruling class, the brothers, in other words, with God in the matter the spiritual position will soon come to light. The magi coming in in the beginning of chapter 2, bring in an element that enhances what we are speaking of. They were looking for the King: “Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?” (verse 2). They have a great thought, the King; He is that already.
JSE Does that not show the continuance of this thought of a righteous man? It is emphasised that Joseph was righteous, and I was wondering whether that is the great principle in the rule of the heavens, the word ‘heavens’ being very prominent in Matthew’s gospel. These magi seem to be the connecting link with Joseph. Does it tend to encourage us in the fact that the heavens rule? Cannot we go through in spite of all the opposition in the religious leaders, as seen in [p. 430] Herod, if we place ourselves under heaven’s protection as seen in the little Child?
JT The magi, even if they were astronomers as we suppose, would not regard the star that was appearing to them as a lawless star. Astronomers generally might think it was. No star of Jesus could be lawless; it must be the supreme star of the universe; the whole position must be dominated by it.
JSE I thought that is why the emphasis as to righteousness is by itself; Joseph is righteous, he is in keeping with the star, definitely moving under the influence of the heavens. Is not that the great secret in our administrative matters?
JT I think it is; it brings in heaven strikingly at once as having to say in these great matters. The magi, too, are amenable because the star to them is equal to the angel to Joseph.
FSM It could never be said of a lawless star that it “stood over the place where the little child was” (verse 9).
JT “Where the little child was”, the embodiment of all righteousness.
Rem Balaam spoke of a star that should arise; a lawless star is one that falls.
JT Well, Christ, I suppose, was the Star there; He is said to be the Morning Star. It is an allusion to Him arising. The introduction of the astronomical side in this section is very striking, bringing in the idea of the position and rule of heaven, the idea of righteousness down here.
AAC Does the principle of holiness also enter into it? “the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God” (Luke 1:35); subsequently Mary speaks of “the Mighty One ... holy is his name”.
JT Well, it would: it must enter into it. Luke stresses that side, the priestly side; so that the one into whose hands the Child comes is Simeon. Here, of [p. 431] course, Joseph must be priestly to be used; but the point is, he is a righteous man, and being obedient, a communication is sent to him mediately. He is able to take it from a representative of God; and therefore he is entrusted with the greatest thing, the little Child and his mother. The charge is Joseph’s.
WW What is involved in naming the Child? In Matthew 1:25 it says, Joseph “called his name Jesus”; but in Luke 1:31 the word is to Mary: “thou shalt ... bear a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus”.
JT That is the instruction given to his father here; it is given to the mother in Luke; quite so.
TWN What is contained in the word from the angel to Joseph, “Take to thee”?
JT “Take to thee the little child and his mother”. It could be similar to the passage in Genesis 8 which says Noah took the dove in to him, into the ark; there is an affectionate link there, not simply take, but take the Child to thee, into thy bosom, as it were.
JSE Is it an extension of the astronomical idea which you referred to? I was thinking of the star with the magi and the angel with Joseph; he is now suggesting additional features on the astronomical line, and the governing feature now is what is suggested in this little Child, and he is to move in relation to it.
JT I think it must be an affectionate link that is in mind. If you really take the person in affection, as you would any divine thought, as Simeon took the little Child in his arms, it means I think, that you take it to yourself.
FSM Is it an additional thought in relation to Joseph? We have already seen him as righteous and spiritual, and now he is developing affectionate features?
JT I think you can see that, the feature that was there: “having arisen, he took to him the little child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt”. What a charge he had! We know he had a long way to [p. 432] go; and no doubt a dangerous way to go to a foreign element. What exercise he would have! Scripture only gives us enough to set our minds at rest by the Spirit; and so it applies in a lesser way in how you regard any divine thought that is committed to you. It is to be kept with the greatest care.
WJT Would you say it was quite right for him to be afraid in verse 22?
JT Quite so: a suitable exercise I think: “having heard that ‘Archelaus reigns over Judaea, instead of Herod his father’, he was afraid to go there”. Why should he not be?
Ques Is there anything in relation to His name being called Jesus; it is the individual. In relation to His name being called Emmanuel, it is “they shall call his name Emmanuel”.
JT I suppose Emmanuel is hardly a title that a parent could give, it is more what is experimental, I suppose. What came out in Jesus, His testimony, brought out what He was. In Luke it says: “Shall be called Son of God”, meaning that it should come out in Him that He was that; and so I suppose here, “they shall call his name Emmanuel”, would mean that came out in Him, as we see in the gospels constantly: “God has visited his people” (Luke 7:16).
Ques What was the thought: “Out of Egypt have I called my son”?
JT It is to bring out another great prophetic thought; the Spirit of God had said that earlier through Hosea. It only adds to the greatness of what Joseph is doing, carrying out prophetic thoughts. If God gives you a thought, and you care for it, you will be honoured.
Ques Does it give the thought of the history of the children of Israel begun over again?
JT Well, all that has been said has been fulfilled; the real thought was this. See the magnitude of Joseph’s work now! We are only making an application; not to detract from the magnitude of what is here: any divine [p. 433] thought that is entrusted to you is linked up with other thoughts; it is not isolated. How necessary to be true to anything you get! It belongs to a chain of things.
FSM Would it encourage us to see that any spiritual movement is supported by Scripture?
JT Exactly: you soon find that; if you get a thought and ponder it, as Joseph did, you find that there is a scripture that supports you, and you go forward. You are not so sure as to the application, and presently the Lord gives you the support of it. You marvel at the resources which are in Scripture, resources for ministry. Presently something comes up that assures you that what you have in mind to speak about is right. Every verse here is supported right through by prophetic testimony, shewing what sure ground we are on. The fact is that chapter 1 is to teach us the legality of any given position we are on. If a judgment be of God, the Lord will come in and shew you that it is supported by Scripture: you are on sure ground.
AAC Has this position to be faced today?
JT That is another thing. Of course Joseph is used to take the little Child out of the way; in the book of Revelation He is caught up into heaven, but here He is taken into Egypt. So Joseph is used in the same sense; Joseph is the instrument used now. The more you think of it, the more dignified our position is; if we are going on with God, we are linked up with the whole testimony of God.
TWN Is every move of the testimony definitely regulated? “Be there until I shall tell thee”.
JT That is good. You speak of the word to Joseph: “Be there until I shall tell thee”; that is, he is under orders. To return earlier than he should do, to disobey instructions, would be to expose the little Child.
TH Would you say that that is a great thing for all the brothers who exercise responsibility to have in [p. 434] mind?
JT If you get a thought and it is effective, you go on. Joseph did well to act on it; but now he has to wait for more orders. That is good. Indeed, he acted on fear in verse 22, and then, “having been divinely instructed in a dream, he went away into the parts of Galilee”. That is, God respected his fear. It was a wholesome, right exercise. Why should I not be afraid of a man I have known to be opposed to Christ? And then God helps me further.
JHT Was Paul under orders in Acts 18:9? Having made one move in the way of separation, the Lord appeared to him in a vision and says: “Fear not, but speak”. He does not rest until he has implanted the testimony in Corinth. Does that go with Matthew?
JT That is good. We have often been struck by the perturbation of the apostle there. The Lord must have taken account of His servant, and assures him in a vision that he is not to be afraid to go through. It is very encouraging; and I am sure we realise corresponding things now in our service.
CHH Did the further manifestations come in in consequence of the first one?
JT It is all one piece, including the wholesome fear that he had as regards Archelaus reigning in Judaea: he received an instruction on that, as if he is honoured in that fear.
Then, as regards Luke; of course, we can only say a few words, but it is to bring out what is concurrent with us. In the history of the testimony, or in any locality, where the ruling side is right, the subjective and affectionate side will come into line. Mary is outstanding in the first chapter for subjection. Zacharias fails: his wife is more or less right, but still, she is his wife. But Mary appears in Luke as a peculiar vessel, and she receives the great messenger, the same angel, indeed, that had come to Zacharias; she receives him in a sober way. At first she was troubled at his word. “Hail, thou favoured one! the Lord is with thee”
([p. 435] verse 28): that is, undoubtedly, taking account of the work of God that was there: “blessed art thou amongst women. But she, seeing the angel, was troubled at his word, and reasoned in her mind what this salutation might be”. And the angel said to her, “Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God” (verses 29,30). And then it goes on after his speaking, Mary says: “Behold the bondmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her” (verse 38). I think we ought to note that it is an allusion to her trustworthiness, that she can be left. She is a subject person, and the principle of pondering must have gone on; so she has a composition now in verse 46. It says of Elizabeth that the Holy Spirit came upon her, but not so of Mary. As Elizabeth speaks to her she says: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he has looked upon the low estate of his bondmaid; for behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For the Mighty One has done to me great things, and holy is his name; and his mercy is to generations and generations to them that fear him. He has wrought strength with his arm; he has scattered haughty ones in the thought of their heart. He has put down rulers from thrones, and exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things, and sent away the rich empty, He has helped Israel his servant, in order to remember mercy, (as he spoke to our fathers,) to Abraham and his seed for ever”. She speaks as a person who has a psalm; that is, she speaks of things having been done: she, herself, a testimony to what has been done. She has experienced the power of God.
CRB She gets this intelligence in the hill country; is there anything in that?
JT I think there is. I have often thought of it as the sphere of fellowship. She went to Elizabeth in the hill country: “And Mary, rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste” (verse 39). As [p. 436] much as to say: The Lord has had communications with me, and I have taken the ground of being obedient; now, I need the help of spiritual persons. She sought out the brethren in the hill country. Not, as we were saying, seeking them first; but the angel of the Lord has departed and has left her. She would say, I need all the help I can get, do you not think?
CRB Yes, quite.
JT She was greatly confirmed because of the joy in the unborn child in Elizabeth.
CRB We need to get in touch with the spiritual.
JT Exactly. Evidently she had a composition of her own. Not as though it came out just then, but going into the meeting where there are spiritual elements, you are able to speak better; and that is what happens here.
FSM Not only does she speak of the things God has done, but as if in the coming in of Christ, everything is secured as to the future.
JT I think that is wonderful, that a young woman like this should have such a psalm! It is experience, experience of the power of God.
Ques Would you say a word as to all generations calling her blessed and the thought of to ‘generations and generations’?
JT It is not a local matter; we are often too local, both as to place and time. It is right to be local as to place and time, but it is not right to stay there. The more spiritual we are as to any given matter, the more we shall be enlarged. Generations would mean that the idea is going on; not simply in the Bible, in God’s book, but in persons.
JSE Like Noah “a just man, perfect amongst his generations” (Genesis 6:9)? Would it be out of the way to ask for a word as to this great term Jehovah Elohim in this connection?
JT Please tell us more.
JSE It says: “the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father” (verse [p. 437] 32).
JT The name is Jehovah Elohim, you mean; quite so. I think it is always a spiritual term: of course, God is too; but the Lord God, as you know, comes in first in Genesis 2; it is found more frequently there than anywhere in the Bible; and it is to introduce a spiritual thought I think, added to creation. Creation is a great general thought in Genesis 1, the great general thought of God. He has established a link, in chapter 2, with His creature man; so it brings out a covenant really, and it looks as if it carries that thought through, that it involves personal relations: not only relations in creation, but personal. Perhaps you have some further thought.
JSE I only wondered whether the real secret as to the apprehension of any composition lies in the thought conveyed in this great name, Jehovah Elohim.
JT Well, I think Genesis 2 gives light as to its use subsequently. It is not a new thought, and, of course, it could apply nowhere more than here where it is found: “He shall be great, and shall be called Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end” (verses 32,33). There are two personalities there, David and Jacob, besides Messiah Himself.
FSM Would you say a word as to how sisters today have the privilege of making such a contribution as Mary’s psalm?
JT Well, I think Mary is a model for sisters as Joseph is for brothers. Mary kept things in her mind and pondered them in her heart. I think she refers to the way sisters want to take things in and ponder them, and work things out from them. The more wealth they have in that way, the more the service of God will be added to. Because, here it is an experimental matter too; what God had done. She, herself, is a testimony to the great power of God in the most inscrutable way. It evidently alludes to spiritual formation and works [p. 438] out here in the readiness in which she has her part as seen in her composition. Elizabeth had hers too; the Holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth.
Rem It says: “Blessed is she that has believed” (verse 45).
JT Quite so. I was remarking that the Holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth and she speaks accordingly, as if it was an immediate thing, something that arose at the moment; as in the meeting for ministry, there is something that is revealed to one sitting by; something which is appropriate has come in immediately. It is the leading thought now, an immediate revelation; and I think Elizabeth is like that; and when she has finished, Mary is to speak; but not as one on whom the Spirit of God has come, but as if the Spirit was a known thing and this is the product of it.
FSM Things said in holy conversation.
JT Well, it is remarkable there are three persons in it; Mary, Elizabeth and John the baptist. I think it is a foreshadowing of the thought of the body; the wonderful delicacy of the organism. Luke, I think, has that in mind.
JHT Has Paul that thought in mind in Philippi? Would his remarkable submission to the will of the Lord in going immediately to Philippi lay the basis for the discovery of Lydia, and then the jailor, and the composition of God in the prison?
JT And a remarkable formation that followed too; Philippi is remarkable in that way.
TH Would you agree that the composition always comes from the experimental and subjective side of things? It comes that way; we might know what is current amongst us, but I take it the composition comes that way, by what is experimental.
JT A purely mental composition is usually borrowed from other things.