PROPHECY

Reading with E. C. Burr

2 Peter 1: 19–end; Exodus 7: 1; Genesis 20: 7

ECB I have felt for a little while that the Lord would engage the saints increasingly with what is prophetic. What is historic tends to engage us, I venture to say, a little too much; what is prophetic probably not enough. What is prophetic is not always divorced from what is historic. The books in the Old Testament from Isaiah to the end would show that very clearly; but the service of those prophets is to draw out from history lessons that God had to teach with a view to engaging the people to whom they were speaking with the things that, as Paul says, are “before”, “stretching out to the things before” (Philippians 3: 13), I wondered if it would be profitable to us to consider this a little and in particular what enters into prophetic service. We could have read in 1 Corinthians, of course—the scriptures are familiar to the brethren—but I would like to touch on one or two things in these scriptures.

Peter says “prophecy was not ever uttered by the will of man”. Things which purported to be prophecy have been uttered by the will of man and we have finished with them, but the plain word of the apostle would help us to be guarded against that. He then says, “holy men of God’ and this seems to me to be the first necessary character if what is prophetic is to be brought in. I do not exclude that the Lord was able to use for prophetic purposes men in the Old Testament and in the New who were not holy men of God, but normally you look for holy men of God. They spoke, as the note says, “as borne by” the Holy Spirit. Now that connects with what the Lord says of the Spirit in John’s gospel, that “He will announce to you what is coming “(John 16: 13). The Spirit has no need to announce to the saints what is past—He has been through it with them—but the Spirit announces what is coming, and the prophets, holy men, spoke “as borne by” the Holy Spirit.

Many other characteristics could be touched on, but we are here for a limited time and I therefore touch the verse in Exodus because the Lord there says to Moses, “Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet”. That brings out two things, one is that the prophet, as the footnote says, is the spokesman. Moses was coming into a mediatorial office here, but Aaron was the one who would communicate the words to the people. He would be the spokesman, but then what is said about Aaron is that he is “thy brother”. That takes our minds to the Revelation, “I John, your brother” (Revelation 1: 9); the last prophet is a brother. I think it would be right to say that in the mind of God Aaron was already a priest, and that would enter into prophetic service as well.

I have read the verse in Genesis because it brings in what to some of us may be a new approach to prayer, that is that it is the prophet that prays. This involves ability to pray in the will of God, but prophecy involves the knowledge of the will of God, and I wonder whether our prayer might not be more effective if the character of what was prophetic entered into it.

FCM I think we are feeling that the entrance into our meetings of what is prophetic is something about which we need to be more and more exercised, because, as you say, we are familiar with what is historic and we know what has been said in ministry which is so precious, but the Lord’s word would take the character, would it not, of what is prophetic at any time?

ECB Yes, so that you could never exclude that the Lord might say something new, that is, something fresh. We would not expect it to be out of accord with the ministries which the Lord has accredited but we look for what is fresh, or even in a sense for a fresh colour on what we have already, because the years have passed and we are here now towards the end of 1972. I think that a desire for what is prophetic (and Paul refers to that in 1 Corinthians 14) will help us to sustain meetings in the life which comes from God. It speaks in Revelation of “the spirit of life from God” (Revelation 11: 11); we would look for that and it would be something that would engage the saints with what is prospective to them. I was struck a little while ago that both Simeon and Anna really took character from what they were waiting for; they did not take character from the past. I think what is prophetic would help us in that, that we would become characterised by what we are waiting for, and I venture to say that even in the weakness and breakdown of our day, there are yet greater things open to us than we have perhaps yet touched.

FNS “The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 19: 10). Would you think we could say the prophetic word is the word of God for the moment?

ECB That is right. You might have to say a good deal more to fill that out because you need to discern what is the word of God. Our past experience should have increased our sensitivity to the word of God. The word of God for the moment is not always corrective—it might be illuminating as to what yet lies ahead of the brethren. There is so much truth already enshrined in the ministry that the Lord has given through the recovery which we have not yet had opened up. For example, Mr. Raven’s ministry is pregnant with unexplored meaning, and it suggests to me that the Lord has yet much to illuminate to us as we approach prophecy somewhat in the spirit of these scriptures.

FCM Does this shine, for example, in Paul’s approach to Corinth? He was thoroughly aware of current history there but his prophetic ministry illumines the whole scope of God’s ways right to the end.

ECB So that even the corrective remarks that he has to make in Corinthians illuminate truth for us. When Paul puts a matter right he does not just leave the matter put right, although he would do that, but he opens the minds of the brethren to the things that are before them. The best example of this is his teaching as to the Supper, which is really brought into 1 Corinthians correctively but has become the basis of the opening up in the recovery of what the Supper is in its truth, and that has led us into the service of God as it is now established. I doubt whether the service of God is established more according to God anywhere in christendom than it is amongst the saints with whom we have the privilege of walking.

GWE Did not J.T. speak about anticipative ministry?

ECB I do not remember that, but that would be right. The power of the Spirit to show us what is coming would be of that character; it would not only illuminate what is coming but prepare the minds of the brethren for what is coming. Every meeting we are at should be paving the way for something greater yet to be touched.

EMW Is not that the setting in your first scripture, “the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1: 16)? Would that not give character to Peter and those who were affected by his ministry?

ECB It is helpful to see that because I have felt very much that if we were more characterised by the fulness, of what the Lord is yet going to bring us into in actuality, we would, find that there was more life and more character amongst us in the present truth. I was struck some years ago now by a remark by Mr. McCallum that Genesis is a book of the lifting up of the eyes. I think that we need ‘a book of the lifting up of the eyes’ at the present time, and that the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is directly of that character.

GWB Peter had not exhausted the impressions he had on the mount.

ECB No, he had not, and he had carried them here for some years. He writes down what the Spirit felt sufficient for his letter, but then the Spirit has taken what Peter wrote here and used it further in our day to expand us as to what was there on the mount.

RL You spoke of those who were governed by what they were waiting for. Would what Paul says of those “who love his appearing” (2 Timothy 4: 8) be a main thing governing us in all this?

ECB I think so. The things we are waiting for and have as our objective fairly quickly begin to form character in us. If your objective is His appearing, or His power and coming, you become a different person from what you are if you are merely waiting for the world to be put right. The introduction increasingly of what is prophetic amongst us is not only what the Lord would have in view for us but it would have very distinctive effects in formation among the brethren.

CCI Does the glory of the Person of Christ enter into the enquiry? “I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1: 8)—the present moment, what is historic, and what is immediately in view, the Almighty.

ECB Yes, it is a great thing to gather up from the beginning of Revelation the way things proceed from the point of view of “who is” being put first, because God is at any time.

Things fall into the past for us, and they are future for us, but for God everything is present. It is a question how far we can penetrate into that eternal character of things in our spirits, being creatures and finite. This comes in at the beginning of the ministry of the last prophet, John, in which he is going to reach out, into eternity. He goes into what is yet to be done on the earth in great detail, but his objective, you can see, is eternity. If our objective was eternity, we would be lifted out of many of the things that take up so much of our time.

JM In days of breakdown, there seems to be an increase in prophecy.

ECB I think that would he expected. Whether it is actually so or not, depends somewhat on whether saints are prepared for a prophetic line, and prepared to be available for it. The availability of what is prophetic is often manifested amongst us on Tuesday evenings, when we may sit a long time and wait for a word. That is not necessarily wrong, but it tests us as to how far we are ready for what is prophetic.

JM Does this not raise the question you mentioned earlier, as to certain references of Mr. Raven being pregnant with thoughts? Do we pass these things over, or are we sufficiently interested in what God is saying and doing to follow things up, and then He adds to it? Is that not the way that prophetic ministry proceeds?

ECB I think that is the way in which things are accumulated in the souls of the brethren. The prophetic word is not merely a matter of knowledge however, and it is not merely a matter of reflection and of thought. The prophetic word is, as Mr. Stickland said, the word of God coming in for the moment, but I find that if I am to be engaged in that and serviceable for it, I need a good and well-taught foundation in myself.

HAH Do the many references to the thought of quickening in Psalm 119 link on with what you have in mind? It is a psalm which is full of the thought of God’s word.

ECB I think that is very helpful. The psalmist is looking for continual refreshment in relation to the word of God coming to him … He says, “Quicken me according to thy word”, (Psalm 119: 25). I think that would be a characteristic experience of the prophet and, being quickened according to it, he would have something that would communicate life to those to whom he ministers it.

FCM This immediate matter of what you spoke of as availability for prophecy is so important. Did not Moses say, “Would that all Jehovah’s people were prophets” (Numbers 11: 29)?

ECB Yes, Joshua wanted some of them to be kept quiet, but Moses says, “Would that all Jehovah’s people were prophets.” Paul has the same thing in view, “Whenever ye come together, each of you has a psalm” (1 Corinthians 14: 26) and so on, as if he contemplates that brethren come together in readiness. I think if we are going to come together in that way, we need to pursue holiness. Now holiness is not just something that is acquired by some kind of monasticism. It tends to be separating, but I think it means that you are held in the presence of God. You can easily see that a state of holiness is a very good state for acquiring the present mind of God.

EP Does it involve the enjoyment of His love?

ECB Well, certainly. I think we need the experience of getting into the knowledge of the love of God as absorbed in it, and losing sight of ourselves in it. In a reading recently, we referred to being in it, as part of it. “Holy and blameless before him in love” (Ephesians 1: 4) means, I think that I have ceased to think of myself as the object of love, but I am held in a sphere where everything is love; in that sphere everything is also holiness. In that sphere, I think I learn the mind of God.

GWB Would it be right to say that holiness is not something special—nothing else is contemplated in the assembly or in the individual?

ECB No, that is right. It helps us to get hold of some of these thoughts of normality. As you say, holiness is not something special, nor is it reserved for the few, although it may be that in practice few may be marked by it, but the divine intention is that this should characterise every one who has to do with God. “Be ye holy, for I am holy” (1 Peter 1: 16).

WTA Was that difference seen with Jacob and Abraham? Jacob wrestled in relation to himself, but Abraham is entirely free and is interceding for others. A little while back you referred to being borne of the Spirit. Perhaps you would open that up a little bit.

ECB Abraham speaks to God in the intimacy of the relationship with God that he knew, but that too is not intended to be beyond us. “Holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit”. The first thing you would draw out of this is that the will of man has been excluded. Now if the will of man is excluded, is there just a vacuum, or what imparts power to a man when his own will is excluded? The only thing that should impart power to the believer is the Holy Spirit. Mr. Darby actually uses the word, they “spake under the power of the Holy Spirit”, but in his note he says “spake as borne by” the Holy Spirit, almost as if the Holy Spirit was carrying them along. We may think that is a very high and refined spiritual experience. Peter is saying it to sojourners of the dispersion and that is pretty much like us, but Peter is expecting that they will understand this, and I think not only understand it in relation to what is past, but that it is still possible for them.

R.H.H. Paul uses the expression “spiritual manifestations” when he speaks of prophecy to the Corinthians, and he says the brethren were not to be ignorant as to them, but rather emulous of them. Does that expression convey what is in your mind?

ECB I think that is right, and that is the direction in which the Lord might set us now.

I have the impression that after some disorientation as a result of the conflicts which we have been through in which the Lord has preserved some of us through His mercy—He would now bring in a sense of direction which is essentially forward, and if the brethren get into that I think we will find that there are profound things available to be opened up to us, and the feeding on those things will draw us the more into them.

DER 1 Corinthians 14 also shows us that prophecy has a testimonial bearing. The testimony is the manifestation now of what will be displayed in its fulness in the day to come.

ECB Yes; I think Mr. Taylor pointed out that you will not get any more in the meeting for prophetic ministry than you will get in eternity—“God is indeed among you” and “the tabernacle of God is with men” are pretty much the same thought. How often does the prophetic meeting take us as far as an experience of eternity? I do not refer to eternity merely as the end of time, but as an order of things which is outside the range of time. In that sense we do not have to wait for eternity; the Spirit will lift us at the present time into a range of things which is outside of the sphere of time.

DEB As to the question of prophecy not being uttered by the will of man, I find that one of the most difficult things is, if you are wanting to speak in a reading of this character or in the ministry meeting to be sure and convicted as to whether what you want to say is the will of man, or whether God really has something that He wants you to fit in. Can you help as to that?

ECB I think we would all acknowledge that. But one way in which whether it, is the will of man or the power of the Spirit of God is discerned, is by the others who judge. It is not long before what is uttered in the will of man falls to the ground. What is in the power of the Spirit of God remains and develops in relation to the work of God which by the Spirit is already in the brethren. I think if we all became governed more by the pursuit of holiness and the enjoyment of the presence of God, even the pursuit of brotherliness and priestliness, we would find that our thoughts became somewhat more winnowed, so that the will of man was excluded as being unsuitable to the circle in which we were speaking.

WTA Would you say that much of the prophecy that comes through John came when he was in Spirit and outside the realm of things here?

ECB Well, that is right; that appears to be so from the book. I think he would know what it was to be speaking in the power of the Spirit of God, because he became (you cannot quite say in that condition, because of the way it is put) in that Person. He became in (the) Spirit. Now that is more than a condition, it almost involves some assimilation to the Holy Spirit Himself.

CB If the word you gave in the meeting came to pass, that would prove that it was prophetic, but if it did not come to pass, it would not be of the Lord.

ECB Well, that is right, but when we touch spiritual things we are tested as to knowing whether they have come to pass. I suppose the saints are illuminated by what is prophetic in relation to the answer to God in His service; that is, the prophetic service as intended to enrich the service of God. How would you discern whether that had come to pass? You might say, We are having better times at the Supper. I suppose that would be right.

But then, that might not be, and the failure might not be in the prophetic word. It might be in the state of those who were available for the service of God. I think that word in the Pentateuch as to “the thing followeth not, nor cometh to pass” (Deuteronomy 18: 22) is fairly closely related to the prophesying of particular events, much more than the bringing in of the mind of God as that intended currently for the education and advancement of the brethren.

GWB Would it not be a good thing not to be thinking about oneself, but to be thinking about the saints?

ECB That is why I thought that the reference in Exodus 7 that “Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet” would help us, because it lifts us away from ourselves into the circle in which we move.

I thought there was a direct connection with John, “I John, your brother”. The whole book of the Revelation proceeds from one who identifies himself as a brother, therefore you would not expect anything injurious from him.

FMK Is that resulting from holiness?

ECB Yes, have you something more in mind?

FMK If there is holiness with us, we shall be on right terms with our brethren, and we should soon be told as to a wrong word coming in.

ECB Well, we would. It is abnormal for someone to have to be told of something wrong coming in. The practice of holiness, I think, holds us very much in relation to God in a setting where we increasingly lose sight of ourselves, and I think that is the important side.

What Mr. Brown says, is right. It is losing sight of yourself that makes you fully available for this kind of service. It goes with what was said as to how you touch what is not of the will of man. I think the way to get outside the will of man is to get in to God.

JT So what Mr. D. Burr has said is very safe, and you soon find in yourself, as you go on, whether you are getting support or not. The brethren, after all, judge, do they not?

ECB Yes, the brethren do judge, and their judgment is very subtle and accurate as to what is of the Lord and what is not. What I long for is the prophetic word that goes beyond the adjusting side into illuminating the brethren with what is in the divine mind. Unless we have that, we shall perish, I think.

CCI It is the illumination of the Person of Christ that is particularly in the mind of the Spirit. “He shall bear witness concerning me” (John 13: 26). That was then future. Do you think we should be ready and alert for fresh unfoldings of the glory of Christ to our hearts as the rapture approaches?

ECB I think we should, but I think that that is, in a sense, only part of the Spirit’s service. I think in John when Jesus says to the disciples that the Spirit would bear witness concerning Him and He tells them how much the Spirit would still be engaging them with Himself, that was especially in relation to the comfort that they needed, Jesus being about to depart. What He is saying is that ‘In relation to Me, you will not lose when I have gone away because you will have the Spirit who will continue to serve you in relation to me. But He also said, “Greater than these because I go to the Father” (John 14: 12), and we need to be free to seek illumination and light as to the things that belong to Christ, and that belong to the Father, and indeed, the things of the Spirit Himself.

EMW To refer again to your earlier remarks as to Corinthians, Paul presents the truth positively and, as you have said, it enlightens. Is it not right to say that as the truth is brought in positively and enlightens us, if correction is needed, it will bring that in? It will apply itself thus.

ECB Yes, in that sense the correction takes place almost naturally. It is as if a proper healing medicine had been brought in to the local company and the sick state recovers by what has been brought in. I feel sure that the best medicine for localities is positive engagement with things that yet lie ahead. I think we do ourselves injury by feeding on the past, either in the meeting or privately. I venture to underline to the brethren that it is time to become disengaged with what is happening here, there, and everywhere. That is not the conversation of the hill-country. It is very interesting and very political, but it is not what will take the saints into heaven, and I think we need to be engaged more in the direction of His power and His coming.

Is the Spirit the safeguard against the activities of man’s mind in the things of God? The Lord says He did things by the Spirit, and it was opposed to the activities of man’s mind. James gives practical christianity, and that is that all man’s glory is faded as the grass.

ECB Yes, that is right, but the difficulty that we have is in distinguishing what is of our own mind and what is of the Spirit. The experience that is brought in in Galatians, as to the conflict between the flesh and the Spirit, is intended to help us in discerning what is of the Spirit. It has in view the putting of the flesh in its proper place, but it is to help us in discerning what is of the Spirit, so that we can live by Him and walk by Him; in that case, we shall speak by Him too.

FCM Paul has that striking expression in Corinthians, “not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit” (1 Corinthians 2: 13). That would reflect his experience of being borne by the Spirit as to the very words he used, would it not?

ECB Yes. Those words are in the latter part of 1 Corinthians 2, but the first part of 1

Corinthians 2 is the brazen serpent, and the brazen serpent has ended what belongs to man’s mind and man’s will. There is now free course for the Spirit, so that spiritual things can be communicated by spiritual means.

JM It is a striking thing that Ephesians 3 refers to what has been hidden but “has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit” (Ephesians 3: 5) . Do you think that the great scope of what God has found in Christ where He now is ought to come more into our affections and our conversations, and more into our prophetic words?

ECB Yes, I do, and hence, to pick up what you were saying before, more into our study. Sometimes brethren look round at brothers in the meeting and say, He takes a lot of part, or He has a lot of ability, or that kind of thing; but if you study the man privately you might find that the substance he is expressing has arisen because whenever he has any spare time, he applies himself to divine things. If he is free, even for a moment, he is wondering about something in the divine sphere. If when our minds are free, we are ranging over worldly things, we are not acquiring the state and the substance that will make us available for what is prophetic. That is why I said earlier that the prophetic side proceeds from a great deal of education, and hence development, in us. It does not proceed from knowledge, but from what has been acquired by way of applying ourselves to the truth.

EP Is what you are saying confirmed in 1 Peter as to the prophets? He says, “Concerning which salvation prophets, who have prophesied of the grace towards you, sought out and searched out; searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which was in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which belonged to Christ, and the glories after these” (1 Peter 1: 10, 11).

ECB I think that is helpful. I do not think that a man—and we are speaking of what is normal, not of what the Lord may do in abnormal circumstances—is fully available for what is prophetic unless he is applying himself to seeking out and searching out and considering and reflecting. The substance that has been ministered amongst us in the past has come largely through men whose lives were devoted to the things of God; not that they were unpractical in their business, and they had families to bring up, but if they turned aside from ordinary occupations, it was always into the things of God. That seems to me to be a good basis for what is prophetic growing amongst us.

PC As to the manifestation of the Spirit given for profit, I wondered (linking it up with faith in Hebrews 11, “the substantiating of things hoped for”) if that is the building up of the saints by faith, because they hold everything in faith now, and by the Spirit we are moved into activity, so that which is for profit comes to us on Lord’s Day morning, and will be substantiated in us because it is things that are hoped for.

ECB I think that goes along with what we are saying, because faith is light in the soul, and it is the Spirit who makes that substance in the soul; therefore we become furnished for whatever, the Lord may desire to use us for. If we think of what is prophetic and the prophetic service, it would be worth enquiring what we are thinking of. What is prophetic has for too long been related to what is adjusting, but actually what is prophetic, I believe, is the Spirit illuminating the great things of God for the saints. Now the greatest prophetic occasion was, I think, immediately the Spirit came. Everyone heard in his own language the great things of God. There could be nothing more than that. People did not understand it; people did not know what the fulness was; some did not even know what had happened, but the Spirit being there, “the great things of God” were now available to men. I think that it is the sphere of things that the prophetic service is to engage us with.

AHM Would David be a man such as you are speaking of? He prophesied, I would say, more than anybody else as to the sufferings of Christ.

ECB Yes, that is very interesting, because the psalms which he writes that bear on the sufferings of Christ must, I think, in some sense at least, have had a foundation in experiences of his own. Not that he rose to the level, we would have to say, or went down to the depths, that Jesus went to in fulfilling the psalms that David wrote, but somewhere there must have been something in David’s experience that provided a point from which the Spirit could take him into those things that have become so valuable to us.

GWB Then he said, “The Spirit of Jehovah spoke by me, and his word was on my tongue” (2 Samuel 23: 2).

ECB That is the prophetic word.

DEB In Psalm 105, where the history is reviewed, in the early part where we are still dealing with Joseph, the writer says, “Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm” (Psalm 105: 15), as though God from fairly early in Genesis was guarding the prophetic line, and if He is doing it, He is committed to seeing it through.

ECB Yes, I think that is right. I believe that Abraham is the first one that is spoken of as a prophet, in the scripture that we read. But God is going to preserve the line of the prophets. I do not think it is now an office. I have been wondering lately whether we could speak of any of the specific gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4 in men after Paul. The character of them is here, but I think we would be slow to identify anyone since Paul as an apostle, or a prophet, or an evangelist, or a shepherd and teacher in that distinctive sense of gift. We have those who manifest the qualities, but what is prophetic continues amongst us right down to the present day, and I am sure that the Revelation shows that it will go on to the end.

JM You would actually be in error if you did, and disregarding the breakdown, would you not?

ECB Yes, I think that. Some of these things you can just spend a sentence on, because they reaffirm truth that would be known amongst us, which has been diverted from. The prophetic line, proceeding from what is wholly in the power of the Spirit, must, it seems to me, come directly from the presence of God.

JM The thing goes through in character, does it not, in persons who are morally able and suitable for it? I was wondering as to your reference to Abraham and his prayer. Do you think perhaps on a more exalted level you get the prayers of Paul in Ephesians 1 and particularly Ephesians 3. Would they be the character of a prophet who prayed?

ECB Yes, that is right. In one sense prophetic prayer on its highest level is John 17 because that looks at the course of the testimony, certainly down to our day, and I would think the Lord there has in view the testimony going on to the end, the most prophetic and indeed priestly prayer that we have a record of. I think that the best preparation in us for bringing in what is prophetic amongst the brethren is to go in to God and commune with Him; not to go in and pray to Him, but to go in and commune with Him.

CCI It says of Enoch that he walked with God, and the apostle Jude refers to his prophesying and the old world being convicted.

ECB Enoch had a view as far as our view would be, I think. “The Lord has come amidst his holy myriads” (Jude 14) is very much like “the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, and that rather suggests to me that those who were prophetic have always been characterised by the end to which they were moving; not the past from which they were coming, but the end to which they were moving. I think that the power of what is prophetic is the communication of what is before God at the moment to the brethren.

CM There is a striking word in Jeremiah 23, “Who hath stood in the council of Jehovah, so that he hath perceived and heard his word?” (Jeremiah 23: 18).

ECB That helps, and I think that holiness involves that we are in the presence of God as suitable to be there. Speaking in the power of the Spirit involves that we are in a state in which the Spirit has control of us; we are beyond the control of man, and in the control of the Spirit. This seems to me to show that the prophetic word proceeds directly from the presence of God in the power of God and it must illuminate the brethren as to what lies ahead of them.

GWB Is Mr. Raven’s remark illuminating when he says, “I get most of what I put out on my feet” and then he adds, “Of course, I would not think of attempting to serve the saints without giving some thought to the matter beforehand.”

ECB Yes, I would think that anyone who has served the Lord in preaching the gospel or in speaking in a reading, (I am not speaking of any other services, that brethren sometimes think are greater) will have found in experience that there comes a time when the Lord takes over, or the Spirit takes over, and things flow in a different kind of power from that point.

Now I would just like to get some impressions from the brethren as to what they feel that the Lord would engage them with, because if things are to proceed from the presence of God, and we are going to be helped and set forward by that, we would be looking for the Lord and the Spirit to be showing us now His way. “Make me now to know thy way”, Moses says (Exodus 33: 13). The prophetic word will proceed on the line that is well marked out. Mr. Darby’s hymn says—

“For the Lord has Himself gone before;
He has marked out the path that we tread”

and He continues to mark it out from His position in glory until the end of this testimonial time.

EP The prophets are referred to in 1 Peter 1: 11: it says that they testified “before of the sufferings which belonged to Christ, and the glories after these”. Does that touch the character of what you have in your mind?

ECB Yes it does, especially the “glories after these”. I am sure that the Spirit is yet capable of helping us further as to the sufferings of Christ. It is a field in which we would tread with the greatest care, feeling that most of what is in that field the Lord has given us through Mr. Darby, but how one longs to apprehend more of what those sufferings were. It is interesting that there was a time, (Mr. Raven’s ministry shows this) when the brethren were even diverted from the service of God by thinking about the sufferings of Christ. You can see from some readings on Corinthians in London that brethren were hesitant even to give out a hymn before they broke bread, because they were so oppressed with the sufferings of Christ that they did not feel they could sing (F.E.R. New Series. Vol. 10, p.301). I think that the Lord has helped us to understand the profundity of the sufferings of Christ, and yet to see that the service of God can proceed immediately in liberty, because we are engaged with “the glories after these”. Do you think that Mr. Walkinshaw?

EMW Yes, I think it is helpful. So that the sufferings of Christ, as you feed upon them, would give a character to the service of God. I have thought as you have been speaking of the need for what is characteristic, so that holiness and the setting aside of the will of man is characteristic; it is not that I become holy or my will is set aside, and I am going to prophesy, but if I am, I am that all the time.

ECB Yes. Hence Peter is really speaking of what is normal to a christian, that is, he would be held in holiness, and he would be held in the power of the Spirit of God. We lose a great deal by not grasping what is normality in christianity, and many think that what is normality to a christian is on such a high level that we shall never attain it. If we think that, I do not think we ever will attain it. God having taken us up and called us through the gospel, we being converted and having received the Spirit, there is power for christianity on the level of what is normal to it. The fact that we have fallen from it so often and so much should make us long to have it and to treasure it in the very weak days that we are in now.

DEB A little while ago you said something about the advantage of being in the presence of God for communion rather than prayer. I do not know if you had finished all you had to say about that.

ECB I think we often go into the presence of God to pray. Supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, are acceptable to God, but there is more to be acquired in the presence of God than an answer to our requests. There are things to be gathered up in the presence of God in the spirit of David, who went in and sat before Jehovah. As far as I know, he asked for nothing. He went in and sat before Jehovah, and the enjoyment of what God is in His own sphere—known to us, of course, in Christ, because we cannot do without what is mediatorial—is, I think, the normal sphere of the christian’s enjoyment. We would think of this even in natural relationships. You do not say, I am very fond of So-and-so and I am always asking him for something. No, I am very fond of So-and-so and I enjoy my relationship with him. That is what we want to be with God, in the spirit of enjoying a relationship that is beyond any sense of need.

FNS When we think of Moses going in and speaking with Him, and He with him, as it says (Numbers 7: 89)—we are perhaps inclined to think that that is reserved for great men like Moses, but is it open for all of us to have that wonderful privilege?

ECB Yes, I think it is. It is sad that we know as little of it as we do, but that verse in Numbers 7 is the confirmation of the tabernacle system. In one sense, the confirmation is in Exodus 40, where the glory filled it, but the real confirmation to Moses was in Numbers 7.

FCM Do you think the promise to the Philadelphian overcomer, that has been so much before us, would indicate three specific lines on which the Lord would help us through prophecy, “the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, new Jerusalem, and my new name” (Revelation 3: 12)?

ECB Yes, I think that all those things suggest to us things that the Spirit might yet help us to understand more of. One thing I would say is that if we think of those things in that light, let us not be too narrow in our thoughts. If we think of “the name of my God”, let us not try to think of it from the point of view that something very great is brought down to a point that we can understand. Let us think of it as something mentioned in a few words that is going to expand into what is, to our apprehension, infinite. Let us think of those things not as if we could by analysis define them, but as something which is stated, as something which we can grow into the fulness of.

DER Do you think that the Spirit’s bent at the present time is very much on the line of Abraham’s service here, “That thou mayest live”? Life is really what the Spirit has in mind, eternal life. We know a lot about eternal life as a doctrine, and there was a conflict about it 80

years ago, but it is something to be known and enjoyed and experienced among us; I think we are beginning to touch it.

ECB Yes, we are beginning to touch it. Abimelech in Genesis 20 was someone who was out of the way of God’s thoughts for the moment, and there are a lot of people who are out of the way of God’s thoughts for the moment at the present time. I feel that the way of recovery would be if there was the ability to touch prophetic prayer as to them. That is, can anyone see far enough in relation to the mind of God to be able to pray in accord with that mind, in regard even to the recovery of those who are out of the way of life for the moment?

JM As divine thoughts get greater to our affections, and we are introduced into something of the scope of them, we see the saints as essential to them. Do you think this promotes this kind of exercise that you are referring to?

ECB I think that is helpful. I think that helps us in our view of the saints, helps us from the point of view of the brother. “Aaron thy brother” filled out far more than a natural brother would be to Moses, he was a reinforcement and an addition and a strength to Moses in virtually every respect. I am not speaking of his failure, because he did fail, but then Moses failed too. What I am speaking of is what is contemplated in Exodus 7, and if you think of the way Aaron was alongside Moses, he was there as an addition of power in almost everything Moses did. That is the function of the brother. We want to get beyond just thinking of “a brother is born for adversity”. I need a brother in order to help me into the truth of God.

TB Is that the force of “I John, your brother”? I was thinking of the way that he can communicate things to us.

ECB We might have thought, Here is John with all this light and all this knowledge, here is a man who can tell you about the end of the secular history of the world, how can I stand alongside him? But he says, “I John, your brother”, as if to say, What I have is for you. He might also say, What you have is for me. That is the line of the prophet that is reinforcing what there is amongst the saints, and I am sure that the spirit of prophecy has the most liberty in an atmosphere where the brethren are together in brotherly affection.

FCM I am glad you stress this, “and shall be thy prophet”. How thankful I should be for my brethren who convey the word of God to me. They belong to me in that sense.

ECB Yes, and it gives you this sense of a circle of divine affections where the relationships are such that the mind of God has free course. I think he could have said the same about Miriam; he would not have put it quite this way, but there was a long time when Miriam was also available. Her service in Exodus 15 shows that she was in line with what was prophetic. She did not have the expansion into it that Moses had in the length of the song, but she was caught into it, and I think that would help us, that the sisters provide reinforcement in this sphere of relationships which I am sure is needed if the prophetic word is rightly to be amongst us.

RHB That song of Moses had outlook, as you say, and length of vision. He saw the people right through, as planted in the land.

ECB I think that the Lord would help us to be exercised as to what lies ahead of us so that we may be advanced in our understanding and ability to go forward into it. In one sense, the Lord will Himself bring some through who are able to take these things on. But what I would long for would be to be among them as one who has learned to love what is prophetic coming in amongst the saints.

CB Peter himself could say, “Our beloved brother Paul” (2 Peter 3: 15).

ECB Yes, that is right. He is standing in good relationships now. There was a time when he had been withstood to the face, and he says that Paul had written many things hard to be understood, but he is our beloved brother. I have been thinking lately how Peter coincides with what Paul says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1: 3). That Peter should say that is something that we often overlook; we think that is the level of Paul’s ministry, but it was the level of Peter’s, too.

GWB When about to depart, he was concerned that when he had gone, the saints should have in their “power to call to mind these things” (2 Peter 1: 15) that he had ministered to them.

ECB Yes, all these things are to help us in what has come down to our own day, and to discover whether there is the desire sustained amongst us to explore things which have been untouched for a long time, but which the Spirit will delight to bring to us.

Redbridge
9th December 1972

KEY

WTA       W. T. Abbott, London

CB       C. Beale, London

DEB       D. E. Burr, Redbridge

ECB      E. C. Burr, London

GWB      G. W. Brown, Barnet

RHB      R. H. Brown, Barnet

TB      T. Broughton, Richmond

PC      Cooper, Redbridge

GWE      G. W. Easton, Redbridge

CEH       C. E. Hill, London

HAH       H. A. Hutson, London

CCI       C. C. Ikin, Southend-on-Sea

FMK       F. M. Knappett, Maidstone

RL       R. Lawrence, Maidstone

AHM       A. H. Martin, Redbridge

CM       C. Middleton, St.Albans

FCM       F. C. Mutton, Redbridge

JM       J. Mitchell, Bromley

EP       E. Palmer, London

DER       D. E. Remmington, St.Albans

FNS       F. N. Stickland, Redbridge

JT       J. Thomson, Kingston

EMW       E. M. Walkinshaw, Gillingham

 

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