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CHRISTIANITY AS CHARACTERISED BY MYSTERY (1)

AJG It is clear from this chapter that the thought of Mystery enters into Christianity, the Lord saying to His disciples that it was given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to others it was not given. There is a certain element of what is judicial in the blinding of the eyes of those who reject the testimony, so that divine things are hidden from them, but to those who are subject to the Lord, and truly disciples, the things of God are presented in a way that is comprehensible to them, but not to others. That really involves the Spirit, so the Lord said, speaking of the Spirit, that He would beg the Father and He would give us another Comforter, “that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you.” John 14: 16, 17. So that the presence of the Spirit involves that there are certain things known to believers which are entirely unknown, and impossible of being known, to others. That brings in the thought of mystery as properly belonging to the saints, something that we should particularly cherish, that it is given to us to be initiated into the thoughts of God which are hidden from men in general.

I think Matthew 13 presents things first of all from the standpoint that, if there is to be anything for God, there must be a divine sowing, as in the parable of the sower, but even that brings to light that there are certain adverse influences, the wicked one catching away the seed sown by the wayside, and tribulation and persecution, and thorns, cares of life and so on. Then there are the six subsequent parables, which are definitely called similitudes of the kingdom, divided into two threes, the first three giving the position of things publicly, and being intended to open our eyes as to the way that Satan is acting in opposition to what is of God. The last three give us what is really of God and are intended to give us to understand the true features of it, and I think as the Lord may help us we shall see that the features which are found in the first three similitudes of the kingdom all find their answer in the last three.

EAK Does the apprehension of the element of mystery, as you are calling attention to it, as laid hold of by us in the power of the Spirit, greatly help us practically in realising the true greatness of what Christianity is, because all that is connected with it outwardly, and particularly the position of reproach in which we are, is rather small and insignificant?

AJG Yes, I think that, and therefore it is of particular value for all of us to get a sense that to us it is given to know divine mysteries. It sets us apart from the whole course and outlook of this world and gives us the consciousness that we have part in and entrance into a system of things of God that the world has no part in and cannot possibly apprehend at all.

JWH Does the matter of doing the will of His Father enter into the side of understanding the you that you have referred to?

AJG You are referring to the end of chapter 12. Yes, I think that greatly helps, that the Lord repudiates His brother and sister and mother; that is, His brethren after the flesh, and indicates that He recognises and identifies with Himself those who do the will of His Father who is in the heavens. Those certainly become the disciples; in fact, they were the disciples.

JE Is there a general correspondence between the scope of things covered in this chapter and the letters addressed by the Lord to the seven assemblies in Revelation chapters 2 and 3?

AJG I think there is, but would you say a little more what is in your mind?

JE I was thinking of what was inaugurated originally, and then the finish of things. What is of God carries through, does it not? I was thinking of the public side in Laodicea, but the vital side of things in Philadelphia answering somewhat to the last three similitudes.

AJG I think that entirely. I believe it is of great importance to be given to see how God views things as they are on the earth at the present time in Christendom. The kingdom of the heavens, I take it, specially refers to Christendom; that is, that part of the earth which publicly acknowledges the name of the Lord Jesus; but these parables will help us to see that the public condition of things is the result of Satan’s work, so the true character of it is exposed to us in order that we should not be deceived by it. On the other hand, the last three parables will show us what is vital and precious in the sight of God, and one thing that will be noticed in relation to the treasure as it appears in the first of the three last similitudes, is that the character of being hidden is impressed upon it. The treasure is found hidden in the field and when the man finds it he hides it; that is, the character of being hidden is particularly - impressed, deliberately impressed upon what is really of God in the world, and it is a great safeguard to see that, because then we become content with the hidden position.

JM Is there a militant aspect of the matter in the way the full position is secured in this element of mystery?

AJG What do you mean by militant?

JM Well, it may not be active, but divinely the position is guarded, so that those who have no part in it do not have a part in it; and yet it is open, as you have suggested, to those who are initiated and there is liberty to move as recognising that it is in mystery.

AJG Well, I think that is implicit in the presence of the Spirit, “whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him,” the Lord says. So that in that way, by the gift of the Spirit, the Lord introduces His own into the things of God and excludes those who have no part in them. It is very important, I think, to see that the Spirit of God involves ability, capacity to enter into the thoughts of God fully, and it also involves a deliberate exclusion of those who have not the Spirit; the mind of man cannot possibly compass divine things.

WCB Does it show how God is carrying things through while still allowing Satan’s power to be active in certain directions?

AJG That is what I thought was one great value of these parables, and hence, if we take up the parable of the tares, what is clear is that an enemy is at work; the Lord definitely says so, and he is at work in introducing publicly those who have the appearance of the true thing, for the tares resemble the wheat in outward appearance, but actually they are sons of the wicked one. The word is to let them both grow together; that is, God is not intervening publicly to alter that position. Then in the next parable of the mustard seed, that which commenced in what was very small has now become outwardly very large, what we speak of as Christendom. It becomes such that the birds of heaven come and roost in its branches; that is, there is room in it for every kind of evil doctrine; the whole position, so to speak, being discredited, but that is the position publicly. Then finally in the parable of the leaven there is a certain element introduced into Christianity which pervades the whole thing, and that, I believe, is that the first man, whom God has set aside judicially in the cross of Christ, has been re-introduced, so that what is of man instead of what is of Christ pervades Christianity in its public aspect. Those, I believe, are the three outstanding characteristics of those three parables, and I believe we shall see in the other three, although not necessarily in that order, that all these elements are met in the vital thing.

JSB I was wondering if the importance of the thought of what is to be known in mystery is not emphasised, seeing the enemy has his counterpart? In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 “the mystery of lawlessness already works,” and in Revelation 17 the name in the forehead of the great harlot is “Mystery, great Babylon.”

AJG I think it is important to see that, that there is mystery connected with what is evil, and these parables are intended to open our eyes to it. Evil is working systematically, but in such a way that the world does not recognise that it is evil, but the saints’ eyes are to be opened to it, to see that God is Master of the situation and that in His own hidden way He is working among the saints the complete answer to all that Satan seeks to introduce.

JE Would you say that these three elements or principles are working at the present time, the principle of admixture which is always foreign to the work of God, then the tendency to assume proportions never divinely intended, then the subtle, secret working of evil as seen in the leaven? Are we constantly facing these principles in assembly matters, assembly sorrows and so on?

AJG I am sure that is right, and I think it helps to see that in the divine thought of the assembly, these evil principles are completely renounced and the opposite to them is established. So that, for instance, it seems to me that the parable of the treasure hid in the field is the answer to the parable of the mustard seed; that is to say, in contrast to that which assumes great proportions, the saints understand that the divine idea is that what is of God should be hidden, and we accept that position that our life is hid with Christ in God. The affections of the saints are bound up with Christ, and He being hidden we are content to be hidden. Then the parable of the leaven finds its answer in the pearl, because the leaven is the reintroduction of the man whom God has set aside in the cross, whereas the beauty of the pearl is that the assembly is for one Man only, for Christ. “I have espoused you,” the apostle says, “unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ,” 2 Corinthians 11: 2, and as the affections of the saints are held by the one Man, they refuse the re-introduction of the other. Then finally, the parable of the tares finds its answer in the net, the last of the similitudes, because there is the principle of discrimination between good and evil in the assembly, “They... sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away,” thus good and evil are to be separated. It is very important to see that in the assembly there is to be the complete answer to all these elements of evil introduced in the public systems.

EAK I was thinking that what was said might suggest that in the idea of the treasure our minds would be directed to Colossians, whereas in the similitude of the pearl, would we not have the great divine thought of the assembly as in Ephesians?

AJG I have no doubt that the treasure links on with Colossians, as you say, and the pearl is peculiarly the beauty of the assembly as wholly for Christ, so that is no doubt before us in Ephesians, and I believe works out in a practical way in the exercises of the testimony. So that Paul in the 2nd epistle to the Corinthians insists on the fact that he had espoused them unto one Man. I believe that is wherein the beauty of the pearl lies; its oneness, undivided affection for Christ.

RLH Is there any significance in the fact that the first three parables are spoken by the sea, and the last three in the house?

AJG I think that is significant, because the first three are dealing with the public position, whereas the last three, as you say, are spoken in the house, and are the result of the disciples having come to Him and said, “Expound to us the parable of the darnel of the field.” The parables are intended to induce a spirit of enquiry with us and enquiry which would lead us to the Lord to ask Him in the house, so to speak; you might say when together in the assembly, when together as we are at the present time, or, of course, in private; the idea of the house being private in contrast to what is public.

WHG Is it in divine wisdom that these evil principles have been allowed to operate in their intensity at the present time to bring out the glorious lustre of the assembly?

AJG I think so, and to see that God is always victorious all along the line. Outwardly. Satan may appear to hold the position, but then as our eyes are opened to what is in mystery we see that God is working triumphantly all through, though in secret, and using the very presence of evil to develop what is of Himself. I mean as the saints see false elements in the church they repudiate them in faithfulness to Christ and to the truth, and that strengthens what is of God.

JM Would it be right to say that if we only take account of the public position we will lose our way, we will not be able to find our bearings? We need some instruction as to the inside position; that is connected with the house.

AJG I am sure that is right, and hence the value of these parables, and the Lord’s instruction that to us, to the disciples, it is given to know the mysteries. It says in Proverbs 25, “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing,” verse 2. God loves to hide what He is doing because that shuts out man. But then it says that, “the glory of kings is to search out a thing.” The kings are the saints in their dignity and it is to our honour to search things out, that is, things ought not to remain a mystery to us but we ought to have understanding in regard to them.

LGL Is there a sense in which things need to be maintained in mystery as suggested in Hezekiah’s action in regard of the enquiries of those from Babylon? He lost his power once he opened things out in a public way, so that there seems to be a necessity for things to be retained in a sense in a hidden way in the soul, rather than to be affected by what comes from the outside place.

AJG I believe the secret of retaining things in secret is our links with Christ; that is, our understanding that the assembly is bound up with Christ, as we were singing in our hymn. The more we get the sense that the assembly is for time and eternity bound up with Christ, as a wife is to her husband, the more we shall be prepared to accept a position of being hidden and being out of this world because that is in keeping with Christ’s present position. He is out of sight as regards this world.

JST Is all this we are speaking of together dependent upon the Spirit and our spirituality, and is it all covered in the expression, “God’s dispensation which is in faith”?

AJG Yes indeed, the dispensation which is in faith. Quite so. It is in faith on the one hand, so that the angels spoke to the disciples as the Lord was taken up into heaven and they said, “why do ye stand looking into heaven? This Jesus... shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven,” Acts 1: 11; it was now a faith period and the Lord was removed from sight and they were to accept that because it was a faith period. But then the Lord said, “ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you,” Acts 1: 8, it is also the period of the Spirit, and in the Spirit the things of God can be entered into and the position accepted because we see that God is in it.

JST So we do not wait until the harvest. He said “Suffer both to grow together unto the harvest.” Our spirituality would detect things incipiently, I suppose, at the outset, would it not?

AJG Yes, we have to leave things to the harvest so far as the public position is concerned, but privately we accept separation from evil, in faithfulness to the name of the Lord, and in that position the whole truth regarding the assembly in its proper features can be worked out.

JE Do you feel that, having the Spirit in the way the Spirit is available in this dispensation, we have the means of understanding all that can be understood by the creature? Paul speaks of completing the word of God. There is nothing to come, is there?

AJG No, there is nothing more to come, and I believe what you say is right, as having the Spirit there is no reason why we should not enter intelligently and feelingly into all that God has prepared for those who love Him.

Ques Is the prophetic word the solution for the moment?.

AJG I think it is. It is a remarkable thing that this very chapter describes Asaph as a prophet; we should never have known that Asaph was a prophet, as far as I know, if this chapter had not told us so. But this chapter quotes from Psalm 78 which is written by Asaph and says, “so that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet,” bringing in, as you say, the prophetic word.

TRY Why is the expounding connected with the first three parables?

AJG I think because the state of things in Christendom publicly is so confusing, unless the matter is explained. Hence the Lord explained the parable of the sowing, that there could be nothing for God at all apart from divine sowing, but also that the sowing would be in the presence of all kinds of influences that would seek to counteract it. Then he explains also the first of the first three similitudes that, as we have been saying, we might be fully intelligent as to what it is that Satan is doing and has been doing publicly. But over against that, not to be over-occupied with the negative side of things, the Lord brings forward three similitudes to which we are intended to pay great attention, the treasure and the pearl and the net.

EAK Do we rely wholly upon the Spirit for the understanding of these three inside similitudes which have been so misapplied by the profession around for that very reason?

AJG Quite so. The profession around would make the leaven a good thing and refer to it as the influence of Christ spreading through the whole world and so on. That is obviously a misapplication of Scripture: “A little leaven leavens the whole lump,” 1 Corinthians 5: 6, the apostle says in the epistle to the Corinthians referring to the moral evil that was there, and “A little leaven leavens the whole lump,” Galatians 5: 9, he says to the Galatians, referring to the principle of legality that had come in in the churches in Galatia. It is quite clear that leaven in Scripture is an evil principle, not a good principle.

EAK Yes, and I was thinking of the current application of the pearl to the gospel. Would you be free in the scope of what is before you to say a word as to the current thought of the treasure, and what is historical as connected with the pearl? I believe it might help us all.

AJG I suppose the treasure refers to what there is of God, or rather what He has in mind to bring to light in the world, “a treasure hid in the field” which has to be brought to light. It has been helpfully connected with the passage in Genesis 2: 12 which refers to the river Pison which surrounds a certain territory, and it says that the gold was there - “the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.” That is to say, the passage there refers to a certain territory in which there was treasure, what was of real value, so from that point of view the field was not necessarily the whole world, it is a more limited thought; it is the field in contrast to the city or town. We have to recognise that Paul in his labours was definitely directed not to go in one direction, eastward, and definitely directed westward in his activities. All that rather bears out the thought that in God’s ways and His sovereignty what He is bringing to light as of Himself during this period of Christianity is found in one particular part of the earth.

JE The principle of new birth and the wind blowing where it listeth - is that the way the treasure is presented in John 3?

AJG Yes I think so. The treasure is the result of divine operations in the souls of men, but it has to be brought to light, and so it says that it was hid in the field, “which a man having found has hid... and buys that field.” I have no doubt it is being brought to light through the Lord’s activities in the gospel. It is striking that it is not only hidden in the field and then the man finds it, but having found it he hides it. The thought is that what is secured through the glad tidings finds a resting place for the moment in the assembly. It is not to have any other position or aspect than that of being hidden for the moment.

JNG Would you make a little clearer the difference between the expression in this parable, “sells all whatever he has,” and “sold all whatever he had”. Does the first refer to current activities?

AJG As far as I understand, the first refers to activities by means of the gospel, for it is still going on, bringing to light what is of God, for the great thing is to bring to light what is of God; that is to say, unless God works there is no fruit from the gospel, but what God does work is real treasure; there is something of intrinsic value in it. In the second similitude, referring to the pearl, it says, “he went and sold all whatever he had and bought it,” that is, it is something done once for all. It says, “even as the Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it,” Ephesians 5: 25. It is done once for all, so to speak, but it is brought in in order to show the immense value of it to the One who sold all that He had in order that He might possess it.

WCB What is involved in him selling “all that he had”?

AJG I think it is just a figure in order to impress us with the fact that the Lord had just one object before Him and was prepared to devote everything to securing that object. We might rightly say He had certain rights in regard of Israel. He relinquished those for the time being. But I believe it is intended just to convey that the pearl was of such value in the sight of Christ that He would devote Himself wholly to it and surrender everything in order to secure it. After all, we cannot have anything more than that He gave Himself for it.

JE You understand that the pearl is denoting the assembly as developed under Paul’s ministry, the fruit really of divine counsel; but the treasure would raise the moral side would it not, in that the material is secured in one place and transferred into another? The whole moral side of the truth would come to mind in regard to the treasure, would it not?

AJG I would like you to say a little more.

JE I was wondering if the treasure would involve the same persons found in a responsible setting, taken up in that setting and transferred into another setting.

AJG I think that is right. You mean found in the world, so to speak, and transferred into the assembly. It is what is of God coming to light in that way, and it is treasure, something that the Lord can use too. It is of value to Him.

RHG Does the hiding of the treasure in that way link on with the upper room in contrast to the temple?

AJG Yes it would; the upper room is where they really had their associations of life, you might say. It was in an upper room withdrawn from the level of what was here, whereas the temple would be their position in testimony amongst men, as coming into it really from what the upper room would speak of.

ET Would the idea of mystery enter into our preaching of the gospel? It is not presented to the natural man, it is presented to faith. In that way the truth is presented so that there would be a response from what is true.

AJG I am sure that is right. A gospel preacher who understands the truth would not attempt to work on natural feelings or anything of that sort, because he understands that all that is of no value. But his object is to present the glad tidings, to present Christ, and what God has to say in relation to Him, in order that, by means of it, God’s own work in souls might come to light. It is only that that is real treasure.

JWH Would you mind indicating the distinction further in relation to the buying of the field and the pearl that is bought?

AJG I suppose the buying of the field would refer to the fact that the Lord through death has established rights over all men, but it has in view the bringing to light of the treasure, wherever it is.

JE That is what I was trying to get at. The assembly as such is never presented as being redeemed, but the securing of the treasure would involve the work of redemption, would it not?

AJG I think so, as I understand it. When it comes to the pearl, the assembly in its beauty, that for which Christ has given everything, it is regarded as bought, not as redeemed. Redeemed has in mind that there are certain encumbrances or liabilities attaching to the person or thing and these have to be discharged in order that the one who owns it may have it unencumbered; but bought simply stresses the great value of it and the great price that has to be paid for it.

EAK So that in Acts 20 it is “the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own,” verse 28. Is that the thought?

AJG That is it. It is interesting in Exodus 15 it says first of all, “Thou by thy mercy hast led forth the people that thou hast redeemed,” verse 13, but then in verse 16 it says, “Till thy people pass over, Jehovah... that thou hast purchased. Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them”. When they are the other side of Jordan they are regarded as purchased, not as redeemed; but as brought out of Egypt, they are regarded as redeemed.

JM Would you make a little clearer the difference between purchased and redeemed?

AJG Redemption contemplates, as I understand it, that there is a past history. It is understood in business matters that if there is a mortgage on a property and you want to have the property entirely unencumbered, you must discharge that mortgage, that is, you have to redeem it. Redemption looks at things from that standpoint, that we belong to God, but that there were our guilt and sinful condition and the liability to death - all these things attaching to us - and redemption was necessary if God was to have us for Himself. But when it is a question of the assembly according to divine purpose, that is regarded as not having any past history at all, and therefore there is no question of redeeming, but there is the question of purchasing it. The word purchase is used to indicate to us that it is of very great value in the sight of God and of Christ.

EAK Are both thoughts introduced in the book of Ruth, the thought of redemption and also the thought of purchase? He says, “I have purchased”.

AJG Yes, you get both thoughts there. We have been referring to the pearl and linking it with Ephesians. I believe the great thought in the pearl is that it is one pearl, “one pearl of great price”, and I believe in that way the thought of oneness is to stress the beauty that attaches to the assembly as marked by undivided affection for Christ. I believe that is the thought, and therefore, while I have no doubt that it is rightly connected with Ephesians, I believe it also links with the position in Corinthians where the apostle was greatly concerned that, having espoused them to one Man, they should be maintained in the simplicity that that required.

WHG Does it answer therefore to the leaven?

AJG It is the answer to the leaven, I believe. The leaven is the re-introduction into the things of God of the first man. You can see that on every hand in religious systems. It is just man’s learning and man’s will and man’s glory pervading the whole scene, whereas in the assembly you have just one Man, that is, Christ, and the assembly refuses to take character from any other man, that is, if she is true to Christ.

JM Is this matter important, the teaching emphasising the necessity on our side of putting heaven’s valuation on the assembly? I was thinking of the word, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly,” Ephesians 5: 32. Is that not a feature of the present ministry, the greatness of the assembly, its value to God, to divine Persons?

AJG Well it is, and the very fact that it is introduced so early in the divine record of the Scriptures as Genesis 2 ought surely to affect us, and that centuries afterwards Paul should refer to the woman as formed, built out of the rib taken from the side of the man and brought to him, as definitely pointing to the assembly - Christ and the assembly - should greatly affect us. That thought came in at the very outset and all the rest, so to speak, of the revelation of God has come in after that.

JE Therefore the conception as to the pearl, what the assembly is to Christ, should govern us in a distinctive way in assembly administration working out locally. I was thinking of each gate of one pearl, in the city. That would be in keeping with the trend of things in Matthew’s gospel, would it not?

AJC That is what I feel. I believe it is particularly brought in in that way in an administrative setting, and it would greatly help us in all we do if our one concern was that what is done is done under the influence of Christ, in the wisdom that is derived from Him and the love that is learned in Him. These things are to characterise us in administration. The more we are under the influence of Christ the more we shall be characterised by wisdom and tenderness and love in the way things are handled administratively.

EAK The idea of suffering is associated with the way the pearl is produced. One wonders sometimes whether it is the fear of incurring suffering makes us slack in facing assembly administrative exercises, but what you are saying would stimulate us as to the attractiveness of it in view of the great result to be secured.

AJG One can see more and more the wonderful value and wisdom in God’s ways in allowing the assembly to be here so long, that every kind of test is allowed to arise in order to develop in us these features of faithfulness to God, and wisdom and love amongst ourselves which we can learn from Christ, so that, as our brother said, in the heavenly city every gate is of one pearl. That is, administration throughout the whole of the city is marked by the same features.

Well then in the parable of the net cast into the sea it says, “which has gathered together of every kind, which, when it has been filled, having drawn up on the shore... they gathered the good into vessels and cast the worthless out.” That is an important matter too, that in relation to the truth of the assembly, we are concerned as to those to whom we commit ourselves so that there is the refusal of what is worthless and the retention of all that is good, all this is of God, the retention of it in vessels; and hence in the assembly, and in the administration of the assembly at the present time, there is the complete answer to the parable of the pearl. Outwardly and publicly the good and the evil have to be allowed to go on together until the last days, but in the assembly we do not allow that. Fidelity to Christ requires that there should be discrimination and the refusal of what is worthless.

EAK What you are saying is in keeping with Jeremiah where it speaks of separating the precious from the vile, and then it goes on to say. “thou shalt be as my mouth,” Jeremiah 15: 19. Is that the way the truth is preserved amongst us in its purity?

AJG I am sure it is, and the only way, so we can see that where there is the refusal to exercise this discrimination, or neglect as to it, the truth becomes lost.

WCB Is the sitting down important?

AJG It is important. It involves that it is done deliberately, carefully. The beginning of this chapter presents that very feature, “Jesus went out from the house and sat down by the sea.”

RMY Would you suggest that this last similitude has a peculiar bearing on the end of the dispensation in which we find ourselves?

AJG I think it has, because God has stressed it the last 120 years, and He has specially drawn the attention of the saints to the importance of the second chapter of 2 Timothy and the principles that are laid down there. The recovery of the truth which we are enjoying has flowed from adherence to those principles, and if they are sacrificed everything will go.

CBS Would this thought which you have referred to of exclusion and discrimination link on with the earlier parable of seeking goodly pearls; does the seeking of goodly pearls involve the exclusion of everything else? There is this one thing that would be for the joy of the heart of Christ.

AJG Yes, it is in keeping with seeking goodly pearls. The merchantman seeking goodly pearls would be one who knew the value of a good pearl and would have the discrimination to refuse what was spurious.

JE If you take the public position as it stands, there is the great house and, ecclesiastically, we are in it, we cannot escape the position, can we, but is it a question of sitting down and taking up this exercise of discrimination within that area, so to speak?

AJG That is it, and gathering the good into vessels. That is to say, the truth of God now is worked out and maintained in local companies who have been gathered together on this very principle of discrimination, of refusing the evil, but recognising all that is of God.

JM I notice in the first parable of the wheat, it says, “Gather first the darnel, and bind it into bundles to burn it,” but in relation to the fish, “they gathered the good into vessels and cast the worthless out.” Is there a difference? They seem to be concerned with the good.

AJG Well, that is what the saints have to be concerned with. We have to be concerned with the good and just reject the worthless. But it says in the parable of the darnel, “Suffer both to grow together unto the harvest... but the wheat bring together into my granary.” I think that possibly in the way things are working out in the world, that is going on already. I think there is more and more a gathering together of the evil into bundles. Men are getting together and combining together, and I believe that, governmentally, these things are already beginning to take shape.

JM That is very interesting seeing that the first parable refers to the public position, and the ways of God enter into it in connection with what is evil; but does it not emphasise the need of the saints today to be occupied with the good; that is our matter?

AJG That is our matter, exactly. The world we leave to God.

RHG Would the good and the worthless suggest those who are marked by the features of the Spirit or otherwise, as available in view of the testimony and pleasure of God?

AJG Yes, the good would certainly refer to those who have the Spirit and who are governed by the truth. You cannot regard anyone who has not the Spirit as good in this sense.

JM What do we understand by the vessels?

AJG I think the thought of the vessels would be the local companies of saints. It is important to see that the economy of Christianity, if one may use that expression (I am not referring now to the economy of the Godhead) involves the way it is set out as in local assemblies; that is, it is not the saints going on as isolated individuals but in local companies.

JE While the sowing in the first place would refer to the ministry of the Lord Himself, when we come to the finish, it is very clear that Paul’s ministry and Paul’s service are in mind, for it was Paul who set up local companies first of all, was it not?

AJG It was indeed.

JSB You would encourage every soul to be on the line of the disciples who were followers? In your opening remarks you spoke of these matters in mystery being known to the initiated. I was thinking that faith and obedience are necessary for any who would be enquiring.

AJG Yes, and so the Lord in verse 51 says, “Have ye understood all these things?” That is, the Lord would raise the question with us all as to what understanding we have of these matters. “Have ye understood all these things? They say to him, Yea, Lord. And he said to them, For this reason every scribe” (Mr. Taylor has often remarked that the idea of a scribe is one who is accurate in divine things, because a scribe has to write things out, and if you have to write things out, you are forced to accuracy. You have to think out what you are going to write because you are committing yourself to it) “discipled to the kingdom of the heavens... brings out of his treasure things new and old.” It is a question of a scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens, that is one who has come under the teaching of the Christ and is subject to Him. The great thing is to be in the current of what the Lord is giving at the moment. The Spirit is necessary for that, and then if we are in the current of it, we shall find that old things, we might say the Old Testament or whatever it is, have a bearing on it and can be brought forward to support it.

AHS With reference to enquiry which you stressed earlier, the importance of our enquiring into these things, is it significant that the disciples enquired only as to the parable of the darnel, and then the Lord not only answered that but brought in all these positive things?

AJG Well that is interesting and important too that the Lord explains the bearing of the public position, but He would not leave us merely with having an understanding of the public position, so far as dealing with evil is concerned, but He would show us that there is what is vital to be going on with although it be in smallness and hidden. Every one of us should understand the great value of the assembly and that, without assumption, without claiming to be it, we may have the assembly in all the features proper to it. I believe that is what is so important, that we should not merely get into the way of coming to meetings, so to speak, and just enjoying being at meetings, but we should be intelligent as to what it is we are having part in, that is the assembly, and all the features that are proper to it.

WHG Does not this bring out the greatness of Christ in that He, as the Head of the assembly, anticipated the conditions of our own day, as well as bringing out the greatness of the assembly to Him?

AJG Well it does, quite so. We were referring two nights ago to Philadelphia, and the fact that the Lord at the close could bring out such a state of things as is presented in Philadelphia is a wonderful testimony to Him and to the faithfulness and resource that are in Him.

JM Is not the great weakness of Protestantism that it is thought sufficient to say that I protest. The first three parables alone will not help us in relation to the public position, what we need is the last three, and does it not help us to view the matter in balance in every way according to God?

AJG I believe there is nothing more important for us all than to understand that about 120 years ago, the Lord commenced a definite work of revival that had in view the recovery of the whole truth regarding the assembly, and it is given to us, in the grace of God, to live in the days when that takes place. We ought to esteem it above everything else that God has given to us in His grace to live in the day in which the truth of the assembly in all its features is being recovered, so that He might have His pleasure in the saints and that Christ might have His place with us.

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