CHRISTIANITY AS CHARACTERISED BY MYSTERY (4)

CHRISTIANITY AS CHARACTERISED BY MYSTERY (4)

Romans 11: 25 - 36; 1 Corinthians 15: 51 - 58; Revelation 10: 5 - 7; Revelation 11: 15 - 19

AJG We have been looking at the subject of mystery as characteristic of Christianity. We came to the subject of “the mystery,” that is, the assembly as the body of Christ, and I thought this morning these scriptures might show that the element of mystery enters also into God’s ways, His ways with Israel and the Gentiles as in Romans 11; and then the way that victory is brought in so that God is displayed on earth as completely victorious over all the power of evil. Then in Revelation we have the thought of the mystery of God being completed, which seems to be a very wide thought and refers, I think, to the mystery as to why God has allowed evil so long to prevail on the earth. For many centuries there has been little or no evidence of God being in control, for evil has largely had sway, but in the end it is seen that the mystery of God is completed. What is to be noticed in all these three passages in Romans and Corinthians and Revelation is that each of them leads up to an ascription of praise to God. Romans leading up to the great doxology, and in Corinthians what is unfolded impels the apostle to say, “thanks to God, who gives us the victory,” (we have the victory already, before it is brought in publicly and that is intended to make us steadfast in the testimony), and then in Revelation the four and twenty elders celebrate the praises of God saying, “We give thee thanks, Lord God Almighty, He who is, and who was, that thou hast taken thy great power and hast reigned,” Revelation 11: 17. One great feature, I think, in contemplating the mystery connected with God’s ways is that it results in praise to God.

The passage we commenced with in Romans speaks of the goodness and severity of God; at the present moment Israel is experiencing the severity of God and we Gentiles are experiencing the goodness of God; but there is a warning that we also shall be cut off if we do not abide in goodness, and that cutting off is very imminent. Apostasy is rapidly covering Christendom and that means that the Gentiles are no longer abiding in goodness, so that the moment of their cutting off and coming under abiding severity is close at hand. That will become the occasion for Israel to be taken up afresh; but what it is leading up to is that, whether it be Israel, or whether it be the nations as brought into blessing, all is to be in the sense of mercy. God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

WHG Is your thought as to the expression of praise that it finds an outlet in the form of service on Lord’s day morning or on other occasions?

AJG Well, I would not like to say anything that would lay down in any way a kind of prescribed order as to what should find expression in assembly service on Lord’s day morning, but the great thing is that we should become enlarged in our apprehension of God in the various glories in which He is to be apprehended, and there is a distinct glory in connection with the wisdom of His ways. So that this passage says, “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!” And yet I suppose as having the Spirit of God, we are intended to be able to come to some understanding at least of His ways, so that we are capable thus of saying, “For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever.”

JE So that the ways of God should not entirely be a mystery to us. The apostle’s exercise here is that we should not be ignorant of this mystery.

AJG That is it. They are mysterious so far as what is public is concerned. Without the Spirit no one could understand God’s ways or could have any apprehension that there has been any definite line of His ways in the course of things on the earth, but we are given to understand that there has been a definite way of God all through. It is for us to enquire into it so that we become impressed with divine wisdom.

JST Would you say a word about, “and so all Israel shall be saved”?

AJG Well, that is Israel in the mind of God - the elect Israel. It says in an earlier chapter, “for not all are Israel which are of Israel,” Romans 9: 6. That is to say, it is not Israel according to flesh although it will be those who are truly of Abraham’s stock.

JST I thought there was a most interesting allusion to it - in the prophets when Amos said that God would sift the house of Israel as a man sifts corn, yet shall not the least grain fall to the earth. I was connecting it with that; so all Israel, the true Israel shall be saved.

AJG Yes, there is no doubt about that. All Israel will be saved, as you say, not the least grain will fall to the earth. So that the elect of God in Israel will be brought to light, but they will be brought to light on the ground of pure mercy; because not only has Israel failed in its responsibility as a nation and forfeited all rights to blessing on that score, but has even rejected the gospel, the gospel which went out to all nations. It was open to any Jew to come into blessing as a man and not as a Jew. The nation as a whole has rejected that too, and hence Israel is left entirely without any hope save in the mercy of God.

EGJ In the service of 2 Chronicles 7, there is a definite note as to mercy or loving-kindness. It speaks of the instruments of music which David the king had made to praise Jehovah, for His loving-kindness endureth for ever. Would that fit in with what you were saying as to the service of God?

AJG I take it that we are tuned as instruments to celebrate God’s mercy, and Israel will do the same on the earth in a coming day. It says in Ephesians, “God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love wherewith he loved us,” chapter 2: 4. There should be a sense of mercy prevailing in the spirits of the saints of today as there will be in the elect Israel in a coming day.

JE Does the history of Jacob, as such, illustrate for us the ways of God in reaching a certain end? I was thinking of Jacob at the end worshipping on his staff. Would this link on with the end of this chapter?

AJG I think so.

RHG Have you in mind that the consideration of the ways of God would lead us to the end? God alone could reach the end He has in view, and He alone could reach it in the way in which He reaches it.

AJG Yes, I think so, and it is a subject of inquiry for us (not that one can say much about it) as, for instance, why God in His ways waits so many centuries before Christ is introduced, and why in connection with His ways He takes up Abraham and makes of him a nation and so on. The more you think of God’s ways on the earth, the more you feel there is a great scope for inquiry as to what God had in mind in the detail of His ways. This chapter does throw some little light on it, and shows that He had in mind that everything should be brought in in the deep sense of mercy.

WCB Is that what really leads up to the ascription of praise, because the gifts and calling of God are not subject to repentance, and He brings them to pass in the sovereignty of mercy?

AJG Yes, I think so. He gives promises sovereignly, and faith can count on those promises in the darkest day and hold God to them. I believe He loves that faith should do that, but then faith has to rely on the mercy of God. When everything breaks down in the hands of man, faith has to rely on the mercy of God, and on that only, whether it be the Gentiles as brought into blessing in the assembly or the Jews as brought into blessing on the earth, all is of pure mercy.

GD Are all mankind the recipients of God’s mercy?

AJG I think they are objects of His mercy, but some may refuse His mercy. It says of the Jews that they did not believe, “so these also have now not believed in your mercy,” Romans 11: 31, that is, in mercy shown to the Gentiles, they have not believed in it, and hence they have cut themselves off from the blessing that might have been theirs through the reception of the gospel, and of course many of the Jews will suffer eternal loss through doing so. The Jews nationally will yet become objects of mercy and will be restored to blessing on the earth on the basis of mercy, pure and simple.

RHG What is the distinction between His judgments and His ways?

AJG I am not sure one can say very much: His judgments would be the application to detail of what is right, the principle of what is right, and hence that would enter into what is governmental; that is that if, for instance, Israel as a whole rejects the Messiah, it is right as a matter of judgment that they should come into His judgment, but on the other hand, what about the promises of God? Hence God’s ways, conciliating His judgments, so to speak, with His promises, have to come in, and He retires to the rights He has in mercy, founded in the death of Christ.

RHG So Abraham was justified by faith because he believed God, and yet he was brought in on the ground of mercy.

AJG Quite so.

RMY Would you say that the consideration of this mystery, and indeed of the other two, is calculated to have a moral effect upon us? I was thinking of the word as to high-mindedness.

AJG Yes. I think that, because the present position in the history of Christendom is that the Gentiles are just about to be cast off. Apostasy is nearly arriving at its head and hence in the light of that, the word is addressed to us not to be high-minded, but fear. Godly fear is what befits us as subjects of mercy, so that we abide in goodness and do not do despite to the goodness of God.

CPP Does this element of mercy as in the soul, lay a moral foundation for the moving on to what is connected with the eternal thoughts of God and His service at the present time?

AJG Yes, I think so. We enter into it; it is according to the glory of God’s grace and the riches of His grace too; but I think as subdued, as having a sense of mercy, (God who is rich in mercy, and the mercy seat is the great centre, so to speak, of the moral universe) we come back to the glory of mercy, and His rights in mercy established through the death of Christ as the great basis on which the glory of the world to come is brought in.

JST Would you say a word as to the distinction of mercy and grace?

AJG Mercy, I think, has reference to our condition as having no hope apart from mercy because of what we were. Grace in a sense is what adapts itself to our condition as creatures, not simply as needing mercy, but there is the glory of grace that sets us up, for instance, in sonship according to God’s eternal thought. That has no reference to our lost condition and is not exactly a question of mercy, but it is a question of great grace that God should have such thoughts in mind for those who are only His creatures.

CPP Does the failure that has come in leave God free to work out His own sovereign thoughts of love, no-one being able to claim anything, and He free to do as He will?

AJG Exactly. All is on that principle of the sovereignty of God’s mercy - “I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy,” Romans 9: 15. But then it says, “and whom he will he hardens,” verse 18. It is not that God does that as taking any pleasure in it, but that if a person hardens himself against God’s mercy and against His rights, God may fasten it on him and he will become permanently hardened, and in that way a vessel for God to show in him the greatness of His power and wrath. Whatever happens God will be glorified.

CPP Does the expression through Him involve both the work of redemption and the work of the Spirit in the saints?

AJG I would say so. It seems to me that all who are brought into blessing have to come to it that they owe their blessing entirely to God in every way, as originating the thoughts of blessing and as carrying them through, and then God Himself is the great end in it all, so it says, “to him be glory for ever. Amen.”

JE It really gathers everything up, does it not? He is the great origin of all, and all instrumentality through which things are brought to pass is of God, and then finally He is the great end, the great objective, is He not?

AJG Yes, exactly. Both heaven and earth are to testify to this, so that the assembly is brought into a position of blessing in the heavenlies, supreme quality of blessing you might say, but then Israel is brought into the foremost place of blessing on the earth, so that heaven and earth are both alike to resound with the celebration of God’s mercy and the appreciation of His glory.

EK Would that be illustrated in the ark of the covenant? The mercy seat is there.

AJG Yes, the ark, whether we regard it as the ark of the covenant or the ark of the testimony, is, I believe, a type of Christ as mighty on God’s behalf to establish His own thoughts, to carry them through from God’s side in power. One great glory of Christ is that by means of His death He has established immutably, in righteousness, this ground of mercy on which God can effectuate all His thoughts, but it needed a divine Person to become Man in order to do that; no-one else was great enough for it, and hence that is the glory typified in the ark; a divine Person in manhood, establishing through His death this abiding ground on which God effectuates His thoughts.

RHG Is that why the apostle says here, “O depth of riches”, that the work of redemption is involved in it?

AJG Well, it is. “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!” But this is connected not so much with His counsels as with His ways. There is glory connected with God’s counsels that He should have conceived and desired the great things He has, and then there is the wisdom of His ways, too. And the remarkable thing is that His ways also are hidden from the eyes of men. So that all along the line we see it is God’s glory to conceal a thing.

CBS Would the ways of God lie behind the imprisonment of the apostle at Philippi in the formation of this chosen vessel for the mystery?

AJG I think we can see that God exercises control over everything. I believe the more we know God the more we see that, and that He makes everything work out as it says, “all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose,” Romans 8: 28. So that things work together, God shapes them, whoever may be the agency or instrumentality. God is in control and shapes all things; that makes them work together for good for those who love Him.

AJW Is it all brought about by the deliverer coming out of Zion?

AJG Yes, nothing could come to pass for Israel apart from that; but then that is a question of mercy, and a deliverer coming in at the right time. For the moment, Israel is cast off. As regards the glad tidings they are enemies on our account, but then God has not forgotten His promises nor has He forgotten the fathers; they are beloved for the fathers’ sake, and when once the unbelief of the Gentiles is complete, then God will revert to Israel.

CPP Is it not part of the glory of God that not only has man’s failure not hindered Him in what He had in mind, but He has been able to make use of it to carry out His thoughts?

AJG Exactly. I believe the more we think of these things the more we shall see that everything from first to last is under divine control, and that what may be, and is, failure and breakdown in the hands of men, becomes the occasion under God’s hand for bringing in His own thoughts in beautiful order so that everything, so to speak, fits in. God has not had to bring in some afterthought to meet an unforeseen exigency that has arisen.

RHG It is not only the wisdom of God but the knowledge of God.

AJG That is a further thought. God’s knowledge as well as His wisdom, and that is to enter into our knowledge of God, because the assembly, is to be fitted to ascribe glory to God unto all generations of the age of ages, and I have no doubt that the praises of the assembly will give a lead and tone to the praises of the rest of the universe.

TRY Do the ways of God apply equally to the assembly and Israel?

AJG I think this chapter shows that. Publicly Israel were God’s people on earth, and there were certain promises to which God was committed, and this part of Romans shows how God’s ways fit in with His promises. His promises do not fail, and yet government comes in; Israel having rejected the Messiah has to be cast off, yet during the period of the casting off of Israel God brings in the assembly; that which has been hidden from generations. He works this out now in this period of Israel being cast off, and then the very fact that He does that becomes a means of the provoking to jealousy the Israel in whom He will yet work, for God will open the eyes of the elect Israel to see that the Gentiles have come into wonderful mercy while they have been blinded, and that will encourage them to cast themselves upon the mercy of God.

JST The better we know His ways, the more we will understand His acts, according to the scripture you have quoted, “made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel,” Psalm 103: 7.

AJG Exactly; if we understand God’s ways we shall certainly understand His acts, but often we see His acts and do not understand them because we do not know God.

JSB Before passing on to your next scripture you would say a deepened sense of mercy should go on conjointly in our souls with the revelation of the mystery to our affections, so that we might be preserved from anything that is presumptive. One was thinking of the great truths in Ephesians and how the apostle is able to speak of God who is rich in mercy.

AJG Yes, I am sure that is right. The epistle to the Ephesians bears that out, it not only says, “God, who is rich in mercy,” but later on in that chapter it says, “remember that ye, once nations in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that called circumcision in the flesh done with the hand; that ye were at that time without Christ... and without God in the world,” chapter 2: 11, 12. We are to remember that.

WHG In expressing praise to God on this line, how would you address Him? Would you bring in the name of the Father?

AJG “One God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all,” Ephesians 4: 6. We know God in that light, so whether we actually make use of the name of Father in addressing Him or not, it is in that light we know Him, that gives colour to our approach to Him.

RH Would you say something of the glory in this chapter? “To him be glory for ever”.

AJG I think glory is just celebrating the particular feature that we have apprehended of God; it may be His love, it may be His wisdom, it may be His power, it may be His mercy, whatever features are before the soul, glory is that we are in the spirit of worship as appreciating them.

In Corinthians we have the mystery. “Behold,” the apostle says, “I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye,” 1 Corinthians 15: 51, 52. I believe that is to affect us. How very near we are to eternal things, to the spiritual and glorious condition which God has marked out for us. It will only take the twinkling of an eye to bring it in. Hence we should be concerned as to placing no hindrance in the way of the Spirit of God completing the work of moral conformation, because the work of bodily conformation will only require a twinkling of an eye. What is taking time is the process of moral conformation.

RHG So that we are to anticipate by faith what God is about to do?

AJG I think so. If faithfulness to the Lord necessitates our going to the wall publicly, if it should necessitate even death, the Christian is in the light of victory because he has this mystery in his soul, and victory which will be displayed on earth too, that is the great thing; resurrection does not take us off the earth, this light is given us in order to establish our souls in the sense of victory while we are still here, so that we realise that it is worth while to commit ourselves wholly to the present testimony.

RMY If the first Scripture would lead us to humble-mindedness, this one would save us from being too backward, would it not, and encourage us to go on to commit ourselves?

AJG Yes, it has in mind that we should be “immovable, abounding always in the work of the Lord.” That is addressed to all, brothers and sisters alike; it is not a question of gift, it is a question of all the saints. “So then,” he says, “my beloved brethren, be firm, immovable, abounding always in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.” There is some work for everyone to do, every brother and sister, in connection with the testimony, because ‘in the Lord’ involves the testimony.

JE Is not the truth of this mystery intended to deliver us in every sense from being mystical as to that which lies ahead? The truth of the resurrection, the changing of the body, indeed the coming of the Lord, are all wrapped in absolute mystery as far as the natural man is concerned; but the apostle says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery,” as if the truth of it would be unfolded to the saints, and hence we are not mystical as to the matter.

AJG No. It is not necessary that all should pass through death, “We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed,” he says. There is a divine necessity about these things, “For this corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility, and this mortal put on immortality”; if it did not, there would be the appearance of the defeat of God, but there has to be displayed on earth complete victory, that God is not in any sense or at any point overcome by the machinations of the devil.

JWH Is it not to be a present matter with us that we are conscious of being given this victory?

AJG It is, that is the whole point; he says, “Thanks to God, who gives us the victory,” so that you enter into your part in the testimony, knowing it is a conflict, that Satan is against the truth, but in the full assurance that you are on the winning side. That is, there is no doubt at all that whatever the truth necessitates you can commit yourself to it, you need not fear the consequences; the consequences may involve suffering, indeed they will in some form or other: they may involve even death, but in the light of this mystery you are assured that you are on the side of victory from the very beginning.

RHG Would the acceptance of the truth that this corruptible must put on incorruptibility preserve us from seeking to add anything to the first man?

AJG It would. Life and incorruptibility have already come to light in Christ; that is, in Christ Jesus there is an order of manhood that is entirely incorruptible, and we by the Spirit are intended to be formed according to Christ so that morally we should be incorruptible now. It says, “every one begotten of God does not sin, but he that has been begotten of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him,” 1 John 5: 18. There should be no element of corruption in a moral sense marking the saints now, but then what they are as wrought in by God and as created in Christ Jesus, necessitates a condition of incorruptibility; a bodily condition that is in keeping with the moral incorruptibility that characterises them.

WCB In the first scripture we see that God reaches His end in regard to Israel by mercy founded on the death of Christ; but here is this not, as it were, a greater triumph for God in that He puts forth divine power that every trace of that which sin has brought in is put away in the saints living being changed and the dead being raised incorruptible?

AJG Yes, I think so. It is a question of God being shown to be completely victorious on the earth in a scene where the challenge to Him has taken place; death is a great public dishonour to God, you might say, but the prophet Isaiah looks forward to the day when death will be swallowed up in victory, as it is quoted here. We have it in Isaiah 25: 8.

JM Does that suggest the two sides of the victory? There is a sense in which the saints privately are in the good of the victory now, but does it not await a moment of time when it will be publicly displayed that God is victorious in this matter?

AJG Yes, the light of it is given to us now in order to make us steadfast in the work of the Lord; it is not intended simply as light as to something that is going to take place in the future, but it is intended to have that present stimulating effect that we are always abounding in the work of the Lord.

CPP When results outwardly perhaps are very small, or even not apparent, would it encourage us that even so this work is not in vain?

AJG Yes, I am sure of that. It says, “your toil is not in vain in the Lord.” The thing we are to be concerned about is whether our activities are in the Lord, whether they are really in the recognition of the rights of the Lord and what He would have us do. If that is so, it is not in vain.

JE It seems clear that the final solving of the issue as to good and evil must be consummated on earth, the scene where the issue was introduced. Then, in principle, does this really work out in assembly administration today amongst the people of God - every matter that arises, in principle, is a question of good and evil, is it not, and the solving of it, and bringing in the power of God?

AJG Quite so. For instance, it says in 1 Corinthians 1: 30, “of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God,” and other things, so that Christ is made wisdom to us, which means no question can arise in connection with our position here in testimony as to which Christ cannot afford wisdom for its solution. There is no reason why the assembly should be overcome at any point; whatever Satan may seek to introduce that has in view the corruption of the truth or the scattering of the saints, there is wisdom in Christ to know how to deal with it.

JSB Would you say a word as to the full title being given in relation to the victory “by our Lord Jesus Christ”? Is that for the encouragement of our hearts?

AJG I think so. It is a kind of note of glory in saying “by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The very mention of the full title of Christ in that way seems to bring in a glorious standard under which you are working.

RHG As we accept this truth, does death under the hand of the Lord become a servant for the saint, for God does not dispose of death, does He, at this point? Death is swallowed up in victory, but death continues until the completion of God’s ways, for the last enemy that is destroyed is death.

AJG Yes, it does; so we have to learn how to use death; “death works in us,” the apostle says, “but life in you,” 2 Corinthians 4: 12. The working of death helps to maintain us in lowliness and dependence on Christ for power, and it becomes an expression of love. So the apostle says, “always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus,” verse 10, that is, he and his fellow workers were prepared to go the whole length of death for the sake of the saints, but they were encouraged to go that way by contemplation of the dying of Jesus.

CPP The apostle says in this chapter, “Daily I die.” Does he stimulate others to move into the testimony in the light of the triumph of resurrection as the answer to being baptised for the dead?

AJG Exactly; so the young ones who belong to the Lord Jesus and have received the Holy Spirit should see to it that they take their place in the testimony, that they allow themselves to be enrolled. It is a question of being numbered, and submitting to being numbered. In Numbers 1 the tabernacle was already set up, that is, the testimony was there, God was dwelling among His people, the conditions that were suitable to God were secured; but then that had to be defended, and the Lord called upon His people to submit to numbering. Numbering is very affecting because it means that the Lord is looking round to see how many He can rely upon. Can He rely upon this one, can He rely upon that one? It is a question of each one by his poll coming forward and yielding himself to the claims of the Lord to be available for the defence of the testimony in this world, and to be in it with the saints, not in an isolated way. They were all to take their place in their tribes in their allotted camps, according to God’s appointment. All that we can well afford to take up in the light of this scripture because victory is ours; we have this mystery given to us, and it is only a twinkling of an eye that will be necessary to bring us actually into victory, so near is it as that.

In Revelation we have the thought of the mystery of God to be completed. In Colossians 2 we have the expression the mystery of God, but evidently in a more limited sense as referring to the mystery, that is, Christ and the assembly; but in this passage in Revelation 10 the angel who is seen standing on the sea and on the earth, who is doubtless the Lord Himself, swears that “in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the trumpet, the mystery of God also shall be completed, as he has made known the glad tidings to his own bondmen the prophets,” verse 7. Daniel at one point asked, How long? and he was told that he must seal up the words of his prophecy and he should stand in his lot in the last days. He was given to understand that there was a considerable period of waiting to be gone through at that time before there should be an answer to all the evil that was developing and would develop on the earth. But now we come to a point in the vision given to John where the mystery of God is completed.

JE How would you define the glad tidings in this verse?

AJG I think, as far as I understand it, it refers to the light given to His bondmen the prophets, that evil is not going to be allowed to have its way for ever. There will be an end to this mysterious condition of things, that evil should have been allowed to go on so long and rise to such heights.

JE Do you think it might be said that even Enoch had it in his day?

AJG There is no doubt about that, he prophesied as to the coming of the Lord with His holy myriads; the light of that would be glad tidings to Enoch.

JM Why is this connected with the prophets?

AJG The prophets are those to whom God has revealed His mind from time to time, who have been used to sustain the faith of His people. It says in Hosea, “And by a prophet Jehovah brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved,” chapter 12: 13. That is the principle, that the prophetic word is intended to deliver God’s people from the world, and as having been delivered from the world they are preserved by the prophetic word.

CPP The word in Jude that was referred to speaks of the Lord having come amidst His holy myriads. Does that show the triumph of God on the line of good before He takes up the matter of dealing with evil?

AJG Yes, I think so. I am glad you referred to that, because I think we can see that the presence of God’s people on the earth in the midst of evil for so long is being used by God to develop in us appreciation of Christ, and of good, and abhorrence of evil; there is formation in the very presence of evil, of what is of God so that we might have part in the administration of good in the day to come. God’s thought is that the good that is in Himself and is known in Christ should be administered mediatorially through the City, and that requires a vast process of formation, because the vessel is so immense, and the process requires the whole of this period of the Spirit. I have no doubt there was a work of God in other generations before the Spirit came, as well, which will no doubt have a place; we do not know much, however, about other heavenly families as to what place they will fill.

JNG Does this mystery refer to the way God has been made known in the whole created realm?

AJG As far as I know, the mystery of God here refers to the mystery of His ways in allowing evil to predominate upon the earth so long, why it was, and what He has been doing in it, so to speak.

JE Would it not cover the whole range of God’s ways on the earth from the beginning to the end? Is it not encouraging to see that God has those who are sympathetic with Him in these matters; for instance, persons of whom it can be said, His own bondmen, and there is the word in Jude that the Lord has His holy myriads?

AJG Yes, I think so. I think we can see that all God’s ways concentrate on the assembly; so as to His ways in the past - think of the light He gave to Abel, the light He gave to Enoch, and then the light He gave to Noah, and so on; all was constructive and cumulative - really all had our day in mind. God was working out principles stage by stage in the lives of men - not setting it out merely in the Scriptures, but working it out in the lives of men - in order that we might be instructed, because this vessel is to be the fulness of Christ, a vessel capable of expressing God perfectly. Not only has, there been this extended period of formation lasting over 2000 years, but a lot of preparatory work had to be done in previous centuries, working out the truth in detail in the lives of men and women that it may become illustrated for us and become clearer to us. I believe all that enters into it.

JST Is all this really an answer to what was said so long ago, that He giveth not account of any of His matters? It seemed insuperable there in the book of Job. They had to be content with that, but now we understand the mystery of God in some measure.

AJG I think that is right, that there was much that was incomprehensible before Christ came, but Christ having come and the Spirit having come, I believe in this day of the assembly everything becomes clear.

WHG What you say makes what we have in Ephesians 3 intensely interesting; the principalities and powers who have followed all God’s ways down the ages now see His wisdom in the assembly.

AJG Yes, I think so. So in Revelation 11 it says, “The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come, and he shall reign to the ages of ages,” verse 15, and immediately it says the twenty four elders who sit upon their thrones before God fell upon their faces and worshipped God saying, “We give thee thanks, Lord God Almighty, He who is, and who was, that thou hast taken thy great power and hast reigned... and to destroy those that destroy the earth,” verse 17, 18. It is as though there is a complete answer now to all that has been on earth in testimony here for God in suffering, and God Himself vindicated in His ways.

JM Would you say a little as to the expression, Lord God Almighty?

AJG Well, it is the twenty four elders who speak, so it is a company that includes other heavenly saints beside the assembly, it is not normal assembly speaking, so to speak (though of course the assembly can compass every light in which God is known), but it is a title of God in relation to the creation - Lord God, but with the addition, in Almighty, of a reference to His power.

JE Is it not calculated to induce reverence, and perhaps we need to be a little more reverent in our attitude, particularly in our approach to divine Persons,

do you think? The word here is to those who fear Thy Name.

AJG Yes, “He who is,” first, and then, “who was,” so it is God in a personal sense Himself who is before the souls of the twenty four elders, who are in a spirit of worship.

RHG Have you in mind that it awaited the assembly for the completion of this matter? God appeared to Abraham of old and said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” Genesis 18: 17. His ways were apparent, in a measure, were they not, but the end God had in view did not come to light until the assembly was brought into view?

AJG No, I think that is right, the assembly is the great masterpiece of divine wisdom and comes in near the end, not quite at the end, but very near the end of God’s ways.

AJW Do we see in this chapter that God takes possession of the earth and the sea, and therefore evil could be allowed no longer?

AJG Yes, that seems to be so. In Revelation 10 it says the angel, “set his right foot on the sea, and the left upon the earth, and cried with a loud voice as a lion roars,” verse 2, 3. It is a very stimulating scripture as showing how invincible and irresistible the Lord will be as He comes forth to take up His rights and establish the rights of God on the earth; the earth and the sea are claimed immediately; it is the whole scene in that way.

AJW Evil being allowed, it is not apparent that the earth belongs to the Lord, but the mystery then will be ended, He takes possession.

AJG Yes. The delay for the moment is understood by us but it is not going to last much longer; that is, the time is appointed, “in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the trumpet, the mystery of God also shall be completed,” verse 7.

CPP It is a matter of the divine calendar is it? God is never hurried and never delays.

AJG Yes, it is a question of our being formed in patience at the moment; there is the patience of the Christ, we are to have our hearts directed into the love of God, and the patience of the Christ. The Lord is waiting in patience until the moment ordained of the Father, and we are to be with Him in the spirit of patience.

RHG So that every little bit of suffering in the maintenance of the rights of Christ and of God will find its recompense in that day?

AJG Yes, it will. There is the recompense to be given to “thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to those who fear thy name, small and great,” Revelation 11: 18. It is remarkable the compass that is covered in that, coming down to “those who fear thy name, small and great”.

RHG Does it bring out the faithfulness of God to His saints right down through the ages, magnifying God in that way?

AJG Yes, in that nothing is overlooked in those who fear His name. In Ezekiel, when the iniquity of Jerusalem had come to its head and God was about to visit it in judgment, He sent one to put a mark on every one who even sighed or cried because of the abominations that were committed, showing that God does not fail to take notice of the least evidence of the fear of Himself.

CCS Does the worship mentioned here in Revelation indicate the great glory that God has in mind for His creature? Is that the great end in view? Jacob has already been referred to.

AJG I think so. God desires worship, and there is no greater blessing or privilege conferred on the creature than to be brought to know God, and in the presence of God to be bowed in a spirit of worship.

JWH Is it not suggestive in what is said here, “He who is, and who was?” God Himself must be recognised in supremacy, and then all that He has acted in, in power, is brought into accord with His own thoughts in relation to His ways?

AJG Yes, I think it is very beautiful that the end of God’s ways is that “He who is, and who was” - God in His supremacy in the creation, becomes an object of worship.

JE Why is the temple referred to in verse 19?

AJG I think it is still the idea of what is secret being opened up to John; the temple all through Revelation is the inner shrine, referring to the holiest or the holy place. The temple of God in heaven was opened and the ark of the covenant was seen in His temple. I think it is the thought of John being allowed to see what has been a secret, so to speak. It has been there all along, the ark of the covenant is there. God has not forgotten anything that He is committed to.

JE And does the light of these things become available to us in the measure in which we are together as the temple of God now?

AJG Yes, I think so.

JM Is there not much to encourage us on the line of recompense to which you have referred? It is interesting that the scripture in Corinthians finishes with that, “Knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord”.

AJG Yes. God always, I think, recognises that side of things, the side of recompense to those who suffer for the truth’s sake, see for example, 2 Thessalonians 1: 6, 7.