CONTINUANCE AND ENLARGEMENT IN THE TESTIMONY

CONTINUANCE AND ENLARGEMENT IN THE TESTIMONY

2 Kings 2:1-14; 2 Kings 6:1-7; 2 Kings 6:14-17

AJG The passage we have read in chapter 2 would show the lines on which the testimony is to be carried on in the absence of Christ, and the passage in chapter 6 would indicate the lines on which we may ourselves go in for enlargement in the truth, and also the resource we have in the presence of the Spirit of God with us to the end to preserve the truth intact. 2 Kings 2 begins with the time when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, and says that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal, but after that the test three times over is whether Elisha is going to be with Elijah. That is, we get first of all the indication that the Lord is prepared to be with us, but then the conditions are indicated; it was said by the prophet to king Asa that the Lord is with us while we are with Him (2 Chronicles 15: 2); the test being as to whether we are going to be with the Lord in His movements right through to the end. I believe that is an important thing, that while the Lord is prepared to be with us, as He says in the end of Matthew, “behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age,” chapter 28: 20, there are in fact certain conditions under which alone His presence and support will be known for the continuance of the testimony, and that is, that we are with Him. Gilgal is a right starting place; Elisha was there. It means that flesh is renounced, we have no confidence in the flesh, that is the starting place. Elijah goes with Elisha from that point, but then Elisha is tested three times over as to whether he is going to continue with Elijah and have Elijah’s view of these three places that he visits, i.e., Bethel, Jericho and the Jordan. I have no doubt Elijah’s proposal to Elisha to “abide here”, said three times, is not that he wished him to remain there but just to bring out the answer that it did bring out, that Elisha was fully determined to continue with Elijah wherever he went; that is, he was prepared for continual movement and to be with Elijah so as to have Elijah’s view of each aspect of the truth that he was pleased to bring under his notice.

RHG Would you say a little more as to what you have in mind as to his view of these three places?

AJG Elijah said, “Jehovah has sent me to Bethel,” and “Jehovah has sent me to Jericho,” and then, “Jehovah has sent me to the Jordan,” and Elisha was determined to go to those places with Elijah at that time, and not to leave it till later. I have no doubt that it has in mind what these three places represent; we are to have them before us, so to speak, as the Lord would regard them.

LPM Would Timothy’s relation to Paul have any parallel at all?

AJG I think it would. He followed closely Paul’s doctrine and manner of life, and it is a remarkable thing that in Paul’s first epistle to Timothy he makes a great deal of Bethel, the house of God, which he says is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth; so that the first thing that has to be in mind is the assembly.

GHMcK It is the assembly in that aspect, the house of God, the place where God is known, is it?

AJG Yes, but it is striking that that is the first thing. The gospel, for instance, is not the first thing; the first thing is the assembly. That is the order in which the truth was opened up after the Lord went on high; the Spirit came down at Pentecost and formed the house of God and from that the gospel could go out, and to that, those who believe through the gospel could be brought.

JNG In saying that Elisha did not go later on to these places, are you suggesting the importance of our having the current bearing of the truth upon ourselves?

AJG Exactly; that is what I had in mind. If the testimony is to be continued in freshness and power, we should be with the Lord in what He is calling attention to at the moment. We should be prepared for that, all the way through.

JSB Do we not see at the outset the full wholehearted committal of Elisha to Elijah? Three times Elisha says, “As Jehovah liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee!” Paul looked for this whole-hearted committal on the part of Timothy, did he not?

AJG Yes, he did, and that is the first thing that comes into view, that Elisha is fully determined to be with Elijah, and it is, I suppose, as thus marked, that his ministry opens up, marked by the power and resourcefulness that characterised it. There are certain features of the truth that have to be continually gone over as long as we are here. We read of Samuel going round in a circuit and judging the people at Bethel and Gilgal and Mizpah, and finally in Ramah. So there are certain things that have to be gone over from time to time, which the going round in a circuit every year would perhaps suggest, and judging takes place in relation to the truth thus brought out. I believe what is emphasised in the passage here, which has in mind the continuance of the testimony, is that we are with the Lord in what He is calling attention to at the moment.

CPP Would the Lord encourage us as He sees us prepared to renounce the flesh, as you said, taking up that position at Gilgal, by giving us a sense that He is with us before the movement begins?

AJG I think so, but I believe it is very significant that Bethel, the house of God, comes first; the first thing to have in mind is that God has His house here, and it is the pillar and base of the truth, the assembly of the living God. That is, things are living in the assembly and it becomes a standard of conduct that we know how to behave ourselves in the house of God, and it is the support of all the truth.

JWH Elisha says, “I will not leave thee!” I was wondering whether the eye being on the Lord Himself would not help us to see where He would move in relation to the testimony.

AJG I think so, but especially to have in mind that we will follow Him in His movements, because it is not only a question of having the eye fixed on Christ in glory, though normally the Spirit of God would keep us with our hearts in that direction, but it is a question of discerning the Lord’s movements in the ministry that He gives, and in what He emphasises, and making up our mind that we will be with Him in it and not lag behind.

LPM Is there in Elisha a filial relation to Elijah; he says later, “My father”? Is he serving as under the lead of the ministry and not competing with it?

AJG Indeed, as a child with a father; that is what Paul says in regard of Timothy, and really that is the line on which things are to be continued; I believe that there is a respectful recognition of the authoritative ministry and a following it in that spirit.

AJW Do we learn from the fact that Elijah was sent to these places? Elisha was not sent but he followed, he went with the one who was sent.

AJG Quite so. Elijah saying, “Jehovah has sent me” would mean that His movements and ministry were authoritative, and it was therefore incumbent on Elisha that he should follow it.

EAK What is represented in the sons of the prophets in the light of the way you are speaking?

They seem to have a measure of intelligence, to have a mental understanding of things, but they are outside the current of what is going on between Elijah and Elisha.

AJG Yes, they seem to represent a stagnant state of things, a certain amount of understanding objectively, but Elisha says, “I also know it: be silent!” verse 3, that is, he was in the position feelingly that Elijah was about to be taken from him, and he was feeling what it would mean to be here in his absence. One challenges oneself how much one does feel the absence of Christ and how much the burden of having part in the maintenance of the truth in His absence is really felt. I believe that is what Elisha represents, he was feeling it, he says, “I also know it: be silent!” The sons of the prophets at this point were certainly not in movement, although as the book progresses there is a certain movement and advance with them under Elisha’s influence.

LGL You would have in mind that when it refers to the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel, and the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho, and the sons of the prophets that viewed afar off, they were taking up fixed positions and were not in movement as Elisha was?

AJG Yes, they had a certain apprehension of the truth before them and knew objectively that Elijah was to be taken away that day, but that is all that could be said of them.

LGL Would Jacob in Genesis 35 indicate one who was making spiritual movements in relation to Bethel? He gets a word from God to arise and go up to Bethel and dwell there, and then he moves in relation to his household to put away strange gods.

AJG Exactly. The light of the house of God has a very sanctifying effect upon us, and is intended to do so more and more because we are always the house of God, God dwelling in us by the Spirit. We are always His house, we are not simply His house when convened, and that should weigh with us to affect us in our conduct, in our dress and in everything, because it is a question of our constituting, with the rest of the saints, the sphere where God dwells and where He is entitled to have things according to His own pleasure.

CPP In moving with Elijah in this way, that is, with the Lord, would you say we would catch of the spirit of Christ in relation to the house of God; His zeal was spoken of when He was here, was it not?

AJG Exactly. I believe that enters into it. He cast out those who were selling doves, for instance, and said, “make not my Father’s house a house of merchandise,” John 2: 16, so that every matter would be looked at as to how it concerns God and His name and His pleasure.

LPM You spoke a little earlier of the bearing of the authoritative ministry. Was it in your mind to expand that?

AJG Only that if the Lord is giving ministry, and there ought to be with us an ear and discernment to see where He is and what He is doing, it should have that force with us that it is authoritative, and therefore there is no option as to whether we are going to pay attention to it and be governed by it, or not; it is authoritative, it is of the Lord.

LPM Had you in mind that what is apostolic is represented today; there is no successor to the apostles but there is apostolic representation?

AJG I think so, in that the mind of God as completed by the apostle Paul is being unfolded in the power of the Spirit in an authoritative way, having its bearing on the whole church, not limited to local conditions, but having its bearing on the whole church, and having in view that the testimony should be maintained in heavenly character, and that it should be superior to whatever influences may be directed by Satan against it.

GHMcK Is that why the first verse comes in, that Jehovah would take Elijah up into the heavens by a whirlwind; it was quite an extraordinary way of closing up the history of any person here, was it not?

AJG I think it is a question of bringing before Elisha that there was power connected with the testimony, and it was to be heavenly. A whirlwind is irresistible power; it is a prerogative of God to bring in a whirlwind that nothing can stand against. It represents almighty power, I think; and also he was to be taken up into heaven so that the testimony was to proceed from that standpoint and take on that character.

I suppose Jericho represents the Lord’s view of the world. I think we need to be strengthened in the sense that the world as a system is a judged thing.

LPM And has been visited? The Lord has been here and entered into the judgment of it.

AJG Exactly. I think that is the whole point, that in John 16 the Lord speaking of the testimony of the Holy Spirit said that “he will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe on me; of righteousness, because I go away to my Father, and ye behold me no longer; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged,” verses 8 - 11, that is, the righteous One left the world deliberately. All this is to weigh in our minds and on our spirits; the world has been tested by the presence of Christ and exposed and morally judged, and therefore that judgment is to be in our souls in regard of it.

CPP Along with the judgment, is there to be a testimony to God as Saviour God, flowing out of the house, according to Timothy?

AJG Exactly. So we do not begin with Jericho but with Bethel; we begin with the assembly. When God has a sphere on earth where He can dwell and where the truth is maintained, then, so to speak, He can set aside the world system.

It is important that saints everywhere should learn to understand the assembly and that God intends it to be the commanding interest of our lives, not a kind of appendage to our lives, but to be the thing that commands us.

LS So to understand anything rightly, I need to have that before me and to be livingly in it.

AJG Exactly, because it is the great interest of God here on earth and what the Lord is tending; it is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. The more the truth is departed from and given up in the world, the more important is the assembly, as the pillar and base of it. It is not merely a matter of having the truth of it as light, but as realising that we ourselves constitute it, and therefore that certain behaviour, certain dignity and so on, become it. Within the last two or three years the Lord has raised the exercise as to not letting the assembly be charged with certain things, and that enters into it. It is a question of the dignity of what represents God here on earth.

LPM You have in mind the sympathetic following up of the ministry, not in a slavish sense, but in an obedient and intelligent way, and working it out?

AJG Exactly, understanding that it is not in any sense promiscuous or haphazard, but there is a definite order in what the Lord gives in order to reach the end He has in mind, and we shall only reach His end if we follow it and follow it all the way through.

JNG Is there a danger, if we do not follow up the current ministry of the truth in relation to the assembly, of dropping down to resting in mere numbers?

I was thinking of the fifty sons of the prophets.

AJG Quite so. There were fifty of them at the Jordan.

RMY Do these places visited bring about a certain accumulation of the truth, are they leading up to a climax, and is that the way the ministry is going at the present time?

AJG Yes, I think so; I think Bethel comes first, the great interest of God at the present moment. Jericho is the world, which is the means Satan seeks to use to hinder the saints answering to the mind of God, and that is to be a judged matter as having the Lord’s judgment about it. Then there is the Jordan which brings out in a peculiar way the glory of Christ as disposing of death and introducing us into heavenly things, so that the assembly is to take character from what is heavenly. The Lord in John 20 introduced His own into heavenly things and then sent them forth from that standpoint.

EGJ Does this movement on the part of Elisha with Elijah mean that Elisha is to become serviceable in the testimony, serving in the current of the distinctive ministry of the moment?

AJG That is distinctly what is in view, because Elijah is just about to be removed hence. Elisha’s ministry is exactly what marks the present time. Christ has gone on high, but a ministry is being maintained here in the power of the Holy Spirit, and these are the lines, as I understand it, on which that will be carried through according to the mind of God and in the character proper to it.

LPM Not only does the mantle of Elijah fall upon him, but he takes it and uses it.

AJG Exactly, that is very important. When they had gone over Jordan and talked, Elisha sees Elijah taken up and the mantle falls from him, but he first of all rends his own garments into two pieces and then takes up the mantle of Elijah and henceforth uses that.

JSB What do we learn as to his own garments being rent, and the value of Elijah’s mantle?

AJG His own garments being rent would indicate that he is now discarding any natural ability that he might have or anything that had previously marked him; he recognises that all that is out of place in a heavenly testimony, and that it can only be carried on in the power and grace of the One who has gone on high. The mantle of Elijah is not made to fit Elisha, he has to take it. He would feel he was a much smaller man than Elijah. The mantle would be Elijah’s measure, but he would never have less than that measure before him.

LPM Would Timothy bringing Paul’s cloak have a similar thought in mind?

AJG I think it has. I believe there is a close link between the two. Paul’s cloak would remind Timothy what a wonderful measure Paul had, but he was to bring it with him, always to keep before him that there is no less a thought in the mind of God than conformity to Christ, not only in the future, but in the way the testimony of God is carried on now. We must feel our smallness in the presence of this, but at the same time we want to see that we have the measure before us and realise that the power is there.

EAK You were referring to the greatness of what is set forth in the mantle, and I was thinking of the way the greatness of Christ is set out in the epistle to the Colossians. But the great thought in it is holding the Head, and the thought of Jordan being introduced, and I thought this might be set out in Elisha at this point as together they go over Jordan, because when we come to Jordan, is it not a matter of death?

AJG It is indeed. I am sure what you say is right, so that Elijah took his mantle and wrapped it together and smote the waters and they were divided hither and thither. That is, the power of death has been overthrown by the power of the Person who entered into death, and in the power of His own life, life beyond death in which we have part, has been introduced. It says they go over and they talk, “it came to pass as they went on, and talked,” verse 11. I thought it indicated that Elisha was at home on heavenly ground. They went on and talked; Elisha was communing with Elijah; it indicates, I think, that as passing over with Elijah, introduced you might say into a resurrection sphere, he is at home there.

LS Would you say a word to us as to Elijah’s request, “let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me,” verse 9?

AJG There is not only the recognition that if we are to fill the place in the testimony in Christ’s absence it must be only in the power of His Spirit, but I think his request for a double portion showed that he had low thoughts of himself and felt that only in the power of a double portion of Elijah’s spirit would there be any hope of his being able to fill the position. It only accentuates the idea of dependence with us, the importance of not taking things for granted, but of realising that it must be in the Spirit’s power, as we move in dependence on Christ in the sense of our own nothingness, that things are continued.

RST Is it encouraging to us that there is an advance in each of these places? It says first of all they went down to Bethel, and then it says, “they two went on”, and then “they went on, and talked”. I was wondering whether, in moving, there was not spiritual increase.

AJG I am sure that is so.

EAK Would it bear the construction, in the light of your exercise, that as the ministry is pursued on the lines you have indicated, there is an increase of mutuality amongst the saints in the apprehension of the assembly, and a practical expression of “love amongst yourselves” according to the Lord’s word?

AJG Yes, I think that is good.

LPM Does the use by Elisha of the mantle in a corresponding way, though not in an identical way to the use Elijah made of his mantle, maintain the authority of the truth despite the fact that Elijah has gone? That is, what is connected with the testimony of the Christ is maintained here in that spirit and power.

AJG Yes, and it is maintained here on earth now in the power of what is heavenly. That is what is brought into view in John 20, that not only are we given a heavenly place with Christ, the Lord saying, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father and to my God and your God,” verse 17, but we are then viewed as sent forth from that place in testimony here, the Lord saying, “As the Father sent me forth, I also send you.” Elisha saw Elijah go up, so that as having been identified with him, walking and talking, he would understand that his portion was marked out where Elijah had gone, but then he was to come back, and to come back in the power of Elijah’s spirit and to carry on the testimony here in that power, as understanding that his life was with Elijah, you might say, but that he was to continue down here in the spirit and power of that.

AJW The Lord spoke of greater things to be done after He ascended. Would the double portion be applicable to that?

AJG Yes. I daresay that would apply, “he shall do greater than these, because I go to the Father,” John 14: 12. That shows what is possible in the Spirit, but the trouble (one feels it oneself) with most of us is that we are so little available to the Spirit, at least not nearly as much as we should be. So that Elisha says, “My father, my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof!” 2 Kings 2: 12. The chariot of Israel. What led him to say that? If he had said the chariot of Elijah, we might have understood, but he said, “the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof.” It is to indicate, I think, that he has the impression that the power by which Elijah went up to heaven is now available for the people of God. Actually it was a chariot of fire and horses of fire, the is to say, it is power that is in keeping with what God is in His nature, and therefore the power is only available to us really in so far as we are in keeping with that, that is, as holiness is maintained.

AHS Does that come out in Ephesians, “the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead,” chapter 1: 20?

AJG I was thinking of that, and then having spoken of that power by which He raised up Christ from the dead, Paul goes on to say, “he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies,” verse 20; possibly not exactly connecting it with the power, but I think, at the same time, that is the implication, that the power is also seen going to its full height in setting Him in glory, and then from that point He has given Him to be Head over all things to the assembly, which is His body.

RHG Does the facing of each of these exercises result in enlargement in our knowledge of God? In Bethel it is the living God; you referred to the assembly, the house of the living God. In Jericho the understanding of the judgment of the world would make room, would it not, for the knowledge of God as Father? All that is of the world, is set over against what is of the Father? In Jordan you come to the knowledge of God in resurrection, the mighty power of God you have spoken of. So he says on the return journey, “Where is Jehovah, the God of Elijah?”, 2 Kings 2: 14.

Is that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?

AJG Yes, I think that would be right, for it seems to me that this goes right on to the thought of ascension, because Elijah was carried up into heaven and Elisha saw him, so that it is not only the God of resurrection, but it is the full thought of ascension and a heavenly position which is to enter into our testimony here.

WCB Does the ability of Elisha to smite the waters, and they part hither and thither, show that he was now able personally to take up a ministry that was something in line with the epistle to the Ephesians?

AJG Yes, I think it does. The whole position of Elisha’s ministry stresses that the conditions externally are conditions of great weakness, corresponding with the position publicly in Christendom today, that is to say his ministry was among the ten tribes who had departed from God’s centre and set up an idolatrous system (see 1 Kings 12: 26 - 33). It is stressing the possibilities of testimony in the Spirit, according to the full height of what is heavenly, in the presence of conditions of apostasy in the world.

JWH Is that why he says, “Thou hast asked a hard thing,” verse 10, and he says, “if thou see me when I am taken from thee”?

AJG I think so.

LS Would the matter of the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof indicate the power that is available with the saints to maintain a pathway of separation and to deal with evil?

AJG I think that, certainly.

AHS Going back to the question of power, you spoke of the passage in Ephesians going on to say, “he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies,” chapter 1: 20. It also says, “and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly,” verse 22. Does power enter into that too?

AJG I think it does; it seems to lead on from that thought of His mighty power, although I have no doubt that resurrection is the expression of the mighty power of God, but it is a remarkable thing that immediately following on that the Spirit of God engages us with the transcendently glorious position in which Christ now is.

RST Does all this bear on the great movements seen in Acts 20, the apostle speaking of finishing his course and holding back nothing of what is profitable that the testimony may go on on that line?

AJG I think so. The apostle there, as you will remember, goes over all that he has ministered, showing that he ministered in an orderly way commencing at the very bottom with repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ, and reaching up to the full thought of the counsel of God, and then showing that along with authoritative ministry it had been supported by love, love exemplified in the apostle, “these hands”, he said, “have ministered to my wants, and to those who were with me. I have showed you all things... It is more blessed to give than to receive,” Acts 20: 34, 35. It shows that it is important that the ministry in an orderly and systematic and authoritative way should be supported by love, the service of love.

I thought, when we come to 2 Kings 6, the sons of the prophets are seen in a more favourable light, in that they desire enlargement, “Behold now, the place where we dwell before thee is too strait for us. Let us go; we pray thee, to the Jordan, and take thence every man a beam, and let us make us a place there, where we may dwell,” verses l, 2. It shows that there is a desire now to take on the truth. They go to the Jordan, which was the last place to which Elisha was directed;

they are not content with the point where they have been, they want to be enlarged. That, I believe, is a right thought, and is confirmed by the fact that when they say to Elisha, “Consent, I pray thee, to go with thy servants,” he said, “I will go. And he went with them,” verse 3. What follows, I think, is to emphasise that if we want enlargement we must be prepared to go according to our measure. Our measure will be enlarged as we are prepared not to attempt to go beyond our measure; that is, to see that there is concern as to there being in us an answer to what we apprehend objectively, and our power will only be in the measure that that is so.

LPM These expressions, the servants and master, are encouraging in that respect, are they not?

AJG Yes, they are indeed; but then one man is felling a beam and the iron fell into the water and he cried and said, “Alas, master, and it was borrowed!” verse 5, that is, he acknowledges that he is working with something that is not his own, he has right desires and plenty of zeal, but the truth has not yet been made his own, not to that extent that he could really fell a beam. When he acknowledges it, the man of God says, “Where did it fall?” verse 6, and he showed him the place. Elisha then cuts down a stick, that is, he is showing the man his true measure; a stick is very much less than a beam, but it is something. He cut down a stick and cast it into the water and that made the iron swim. If one’s true measure is acknowledged and recognised in the smallness of it, then you have something that is your own. It says, “Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand and took it,” verse 7.

WE Why do you think that this occurred when felling the beam and not the tree?

AJG A beam would be what was necessary for building, i.e., the man had right thoughts, right ideas before him, but the point is, was he equal to it then?

We are equal to the greatest thoughts that we may apprehend objectively only in the measure in which we are taking them on subjectively.

LPM Evidently this was the more refined process. It says in the earlier verse they came to the Jordan and cut down the trees, but the beam would be the preparatory work for immediate building, would it not? I wondered whether we are more tested in the secondary stage of construction; we may have some understanding of what is elemental in the Roman sense, but assembly exercises test our measure, do they not?

AJG They do, and I think that is what the action signifies. It is of no use attempting to build with something that is not our own, but if there is the acknowledgment of the truth, the Lord will show us that we have something; it may be only a stick as compared with a beam, but it is something, and if that is acknowledged, then we have something that is our own. “And he put out his hand and took it,” verse 7; now he has something he can use.

JNG Would that mean he was amenable to adjustment? Perhaps some of us do not get enlargement because we are not ready for adjustment.

AJG Exactly. If we are prepared for adjustment and are concerned (not that one wants to occupy brethren with themselves) that there should be a subjective answer to what we have apprehended objectively, the Lord will help us and give us enlargement on that line, I am sure.

LPM So that calamities are educative, whether personal or collective, are they not?

AJG Provided the truth is acknowledged. “Alas, master, and it was borrowed!”

LPM Exactly. And the recognition of the authority of Elisha greatly helps, does it not? “Alas, master.”

CJN What is your thought in regard to the axe head swimming? Naturally an axe head would not swim. Is it that what is natural is usually opposite to what is spiritual?

AJG Yes. I suppose it is to indicate that divine power comes in where the truth is acknowledged and we are going on with what we really have.

EGJ It is not a matter of floating, but of ability to move in the circumstances, is it not.

AJG Yes, it is swimming. It is a power that is superior to what is adverse, it is divine power. I think it is all the working out of the chariots of Israel and the horsemen thereof, although in a very small measure. There is fulness of divine power available, the point is whether we are to learn to avail ourselves of it.

LPM Is there the thought of life in swimming as distinct from the negation or the counteraction of gravity?

AJG Yes, exactly. For an axe head to swim is an entirely unnatural thing. It does suggest the power of life, and that is what John’s ministry stresses, there must be life, there must be reality in the things of God, and in the measure that there is, there will be enlargement. The more we are really in what we hold, and are exercised to be real, the more we shall find we are enlarged in it.

EAK Do we get anything made our own apart from the death of Christ? I was thinking, in connection with the thought of the stick being cut down: it would go back to Marah where Jehovah showed Moses wood, and the Lord being cut off in the midst of His days. Would there not be an indication there of the death of Christ, apart from which nothing is ever made our own?

AJG I think so. I think if there is any going on with what is borrowed we have to come in principle to the death of Christ and learn to judge every form of unreality in us, it may be a kind of sincere unreality and we do not discover that it is unreality at first, but we have to come to judge it and judge it in the light of the death of Christ.

LPM He could trace where the axe head fell; is there some point in that? He was able to show Elisha the point where it had fallen in.

AJG I think it all indicates wholesome exercise as to the matter. The fact that he could point out the place is very important.

In the last incident we have the power of what is opposed to the truth as represented in the king of Syria, horses and chariots and a great host against the truth for the moment, against the man of God. The man of God, through the Holy Spirit, was in possession of the secrets of the enemy. Paul says, “we are not ignorant of his thoughts,” 2 Corinthians 2: 11. We ought not to be; the Spirit of God would give the saints understanding as to all that is working in relation to the testimony in opposition to it. Elisha was perfectly restful. I believe it is to teach us that in the presence of the Spirit of God here, we have divine power, the Spirit of truth, who will make manifest every movement of the enemy and ensure the saints going through.

LPM Is that why the expression, “man of God”, comes into these incidents?

AJG Yes, exactly. It is a question of manhood, standing for the truth of God. It is a remarkable thing that when the young man’s eyes are opened he sees the mountain full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha; he sees the position. It is divine power protecting the truth, but divine power in the character of fire. All the way through these incidents there is the insistence on the necessity for holiness if we are to go on to the end with what the Spirit is presenting.

RMY What would you say about the chariot of Israel, and the fact that these chariots are round about Elisha?

AJG Elisha refers to Israel because he has the people of God in mind, but actually it is the man of God who is being preserved. Of course he is being preserved in order that the truth may be there for the people of God, and he has nothing less than the whole of the people of God in his mind, but actually it is the man of God who is being preserved. It is those who are going on with the truth who are specially preserved in relation to all that is opposed.

JNG Does not this incident follow in that way, that as the power alluded to in the chariot is known in bringing our souls into the truth livingly, there will be this power outwardly maintaining us?

AJG I think so. I think it is to make us restful, to give us to understand the wonderful resource we have in the Spirit of truth being with us to the end, a divine Person, and we have divine power and divine perception so that there is no movement in opposition to the truth that the saints cannot be made aware of. The Spirit sees it all and understands its character and will give a ministry in relation to it as it may be needed, so that we can be perfectly restful, only we are to understand that it is horses of fire and chariots of fire, that is, God is maintaining His own nature as a consuming fire.

RHG Does it involve that not only is there the Spirit of truth, but there are vessels in which He can operate? He says, “they that are with us,” verse 16.

AJG Yes, exactly, “they that are with us are more than they that are with them”, and so John in his epistle says, “greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world,” 1 John 4: 4.

GHMcK Although Elisha told him this, Elisha actually prayed that his eyes might be opened. Is that a further thought?

AJG Quite so, because to be told something is one thing, but I am not fully assured until I see it, so to speak. The Lord opened his eyes that he saw. Elisha did not need to have his eyes opened; he was aware of it, he was restful.