RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF RELATIONS BETWEEN GOD AND MAN
[p. 21] RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF RELATIONS BETWEEN GOD AND MAN
JT I suppose the epistle to the Romans is the testimony of the relations between God and man. I think it is a very great consideration that God was in a position to intervene and to re-establish the relationships between Himself and man, so that there is a complete adjustment of everything on the earth. The actual conditions that exist on earth are laid bare in the earlier part of the epistle, and then there is an adjustment of them in relation to God.
WL And would you say that that adjustment, whilst in the first place it takes up the simple one of man as man in relation to God, also includes the special position of Israel?
JT You must have the whole thing, but man as man is the great thesis. Unless God had justified Himself in reference to everything as well as man, things would not be quite clear. The Jew is alluded to in this chapter, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way, chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God”; that is to say, all that was of God connected with Israel was fully accounted for and recognised; they had the oracles of God. I believe it is of great importance at the present time for the Lord’s people to see that there must be a testimony in regard to our relationship with God, and to see how that adjustment has taken place, so that the position of man on earth and the relationship is fully established.
WM God has made that adjustment Himself.
Ques Is that why we have the mercy-seat?
JT Yes, the mercy-seat is the great central thought in the passage. It is as if God has taken [p. 22] His seat on the throne, and put Himself in touch with His creatures in consistency with His nature. The adjustment is brought about from God’s side. The central thought is how God justifies Himself.
WHM That He might be just and the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus.
TMG Just, according to His throne.
JT The position suggests the tabernacle, not Egypt; it is the wilderness because the mercy-seat did not exist in Egypt. I think the thought is that God is acting from His own position.
JAM It is not a question of man’s need, but of God’s righteousness.
JT Yes, exactly, how God puts Himself in touch with all that is without in accordance with His own nature.
TMG That is really the thought of the mercy-seat.
JT Yes.
Rem In order to show forth the completeness of the testimony, the absolute departure of man is shown.
JT I think so, and that every testimony previously rendered was ineffectual. The testimony of the creation had reference to man as a whole; the testimony of the law had reference to Israel, and so both were ineffective.
Rem It is the gospel of God in Romans.
JT And it is concerning His Son; that is to say, He has found a vessel to carry out His will. You see the testimonies previously rendered were not concerning His Son; they were divine; that is to say, creation was God’s handiwork, and has to be taken account of; the testimony was there, but it was ineffective; but although ineffective, it rendered man unsuitable.
JG The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth His handiwork.
JT [p. 23] That was clearly the thought in the testimony in creation; there was the index in it to what was spiritual; it only waited for the spiritual system to be introduced for us to understand the index; Christ answers in heaven now to all that was in the heavens. Then there was the testimony of God’s will in Israel, that is, God asserted His right to man’s affections, but He never secured them.
TMG That was the law really; He claimed what He had a right to.
WL Would you not say Paul’s object in writing is not exactly to present the gospel to sinners, but it is written to saints that they might understand the manner in which God has manifested His righteousness? If we are not clear on that, we do not apprehend our place. If we are not clear as to the position as men on earth, what is the use of bringing in the heavenly position? There is rather an interesting expression in the gospel which would connect itself with this, the publican condemned himself and justified God, and he got the blessing.
TMG That is what settles the soul.
JT I think it prepares for the divine system, because as you find in Luke 7, you have the woman in the pharisee’s house. What came out about her was that she loved much because she was forgiven much; therefore the better you understand Romans the better you love Christ.
Rem It is the over-abounding grace that comes out. The better you love Christ the better you are for Him; this applies not only to the disciples but to the women also, because they were with Him and ministered unto Him of their substance.
JT The one who is forgiven much loves much; the more we judge sin the more we appreciate what Christ has done for us; so that to my mind the effect of the epistle to the Romans on the soul is wonderful. No one can tell you anything; you understand [p. 24] everything on earth; there is a perfect judgment of everything on earth in your soul, and you are in relationship with God; and then the effect of it all is that you love Christ.
SC What you have just said shows the importance of a soul’s having the sense of what is presented in the epistle to the Romans.
JT You are not likely to be carried away by anything material if you are grounded in Romans. If you were the best astronomer in the world all you would know in regard to the heavens would be a testimony to God’s wisdom. If we are clear as to the teaching of Romans, we are not likely to be carried away by an earthly religion, because that also is discovered. Everything here is exposed in its true light. You would not be carried away by anything material, because the material system is only a testimony to the spiritual; and you would not be carried away by man’s wisdom, as the second chapter exposes it; and we shall not be carried away by an earthly religion.
Rem So that really you see that the influences to which the Galatians exposed themselves are really met in Romans.
JT If we were established in what Romans presents, we would not be carried away through philosophy or religion.
WL A thorough establishing in what is brought out in Romans prepares the soul for the introduction of heavenly truth; and until then, no matter how much we might speak about it, it has not come to be a reality in our souls, because you have not come to know God in heavenly relationship.
JT The point is to distinguish God. However plausible men may be, if what they say is opposed to what God has said, you judge God must be true, even if you do not understand what they say. So [p. 25] that as Mr. L, says, the knowledge of God in the soul is an immense fortification against evil.
WL I think the two things that are said to be impossible for God to do are very remarkable: He cannot lie, and He cannot deny Himself.
Ques Does the thought of the covenant come out in Romans?
JT I do not know that it would be exactly the point, because the covenant has the house of Israel and the house of Judah in view, whereas in Romans it is God and man.
Ques Is not the teaching of Romans for the individual?
JT The point is to re-establish the relation between God and man, and what is to be gathered from it is that the relationship is in another Man. The first man is removed judicially in the cross, because the sin-offering was burnt without the camp.
JM It is not that that man is set up again; he is removed.
JT The sin-offering is burnt without the camp, showing the uncleanness of it; but then in the burnt-offering that man is gone in death; therefore you have a mercy-seat which is clearly seen in Christ risen. It is a question of what was brought inside, sprinkled on the mercy-seat and before it; it is the blood of the sin-offering.
TMG And then the glad tidings are concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord. He was the One who not only superseded the first man, but He set him aside.
JT As we were seeing, every claim of God was met in Christ, so that the order of man that was to exist is set forth in Christ, whilst the lawless man is removed by His death. It is very much like what Genesis 6 sets forth; you have first the man that is righteous, and he appears in the midst of corruption; Noah appears in the midst of corruption, and he [p. 26] walked with God, and he preached in the midst of it, and he had the testimony that he was righteous, and then he goes through death. I do not know whether that thought is clear, but I think it is very important to see that the head of a new system was first there before the old was removed.
TMG That is a very important thing.
Ques You mean it is illustrated in Noah?
Rem It is only such a one who could meet the situation.
JT I think it is wonderful to think of God looking down on Christ, and what He was under God’s eye.
WHM Is it not in that way that the epistle to the Romans is such a beautiful answer to the Book of Job?
JT How can a man be just before God, is that your idea?
WHM Yes; and then he longed for a daysman to lay his hand on both.
JT I think there is a hidden allusion to Israel in Job. The principle of the book is the same principle that applies to Israel in its re-establishment on earth.
Rem You said the lawless man is removed to introduce the just man.
JT Well, I think that meets the present idea that Christ added anything to man here; it is a totally false idea, because He was the order of man that was to be established and that was to continue. Now, what is very precious to my mind is that, whilst we are removed vicariously, we are retained personally.
JM It is a question of the order of man that is to continue.
JT Yes. Now in the death of Christ the order of man was set aside vicariously, but still man was [p. 27] retained before God, but it is man in Christ that is retained.
TMG That is another order of man; but then that order was testified to here.
Ques Would you say our personalities were retained?
JT Yes, you see that historically in the disciples. There was a race of men retained by the Lord so that He comes up out of death with a new humanity — that is, with the disciples — retained.
Rem That was a greater triumph for God than sweeping the scene in judgment and bringing in a new creation altogether.
JT God could have obliterated them completely, and He might have brought in another generation in Moses; but that would only have been an act of power. His righteousness and mercy would not have been evidenced.
Ques What do you mean by saying that the personality is retained?
JT Man is retained; you and I have been sinners, and that order of man is removed from before God in Christ, but you and I are brought back, and we are men.
WL I would quote a verse which gives the idea, the apostle says. “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me”.
JAM Would you not say the way God has effected all this is what forms us?
JT I think so; the individuality remains, but then the apostle says, “By the grace of God I am what I am”. That is, characteristically he is what he is by the grace of God.
Rem If God was merciful it was on a righteous basis.
JT How could He be merciful aside from what was His nature? You cannot compromise any [p. 28] attribute of God, because He is merciful in the mercy-seat.
Rem I suppose it all proves how the gospel is entirely from God.
JT And there must be the vindication of every divine attribute.
TMG God must act in accordance with all that He is. So when Stephen saw the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ it meant that all God’s attributes were fully set forth.
JT After Exodus 33, you have the tables of the covenant and the ark again alluded to, because it was on them that everything depended; because they referred to Christ, and the lid of the ark was the mercy-seat. So that the rights of mercy are taken up in the mercy-seat.
Ques What is the force of “through faith in his blood”?
JT The point is that no one can get it apart from that, but God has set it forth — a mercy-seat.
Rem Faith is the answer.
JT Faith in us gives us part in it; it is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. The death of Christ has vindicated every attribute of God, and therefore wherever faith is, it regards the blood; and chapter 3 is the death of Christ, it is the blood, and wherever there is faith in that, there is righteousness for you.
TMG But chapter 3 is God’s side, it is not so much us.
JT I think it is a question of God in chapter 3.
Ques Would you say that answers to Leviticus 2; God gets His portion first?
JT Quite so; the bullock really answers to us more in Leviticus 16. The side that applies to the present dispensation is really the bullock. There was only one bullock; there was no ‘scape-bullock’; the blood of the bullock was carried inside and there [p. 29] was no scape-bullock that the people could see going off with their sins. So that the present moment is a moment of faith. When the Lord returns Israel will see Him and will know their forgiveness; but we know Him now by the Spirit.
WL I think the second scape-goat refers to an earthly people walking in the light of revealed forgiveness.
JT Justification is on the principle of faith; that is, you do not see anything. Faith is brought in here; it is a minor thought in the passage; the point is that it is a showing forth of God’s righteousness.
WL I think it is a great thing to see that it is in the death of Christ that the righteousness of God is manifested. Our righteousness comes in in the next chapter.
JT It is God taking up a universal position in regard to men to set forth His righteousness. I think faith is a necessary element in the setting forth of the righteousness of God. It is seen in those who have faith.
JAM In that way it is from faith to faith.
JT The light would be wholly in an abstract way aside from its having an answer in man.
Ques Presented to man for the obedience of faith; does God call for faith on the part of man?
JT I think the faith in man answers the setting forth of God’s righteousness. God has brought about faith in your soul.
WL There is an expression later on which refers to the obedience of faith. Israel lost the blessing because they would not submit to the righteousness of God.
JMcF Would you say that faith is a state in man?
JT Well, it is difficult to call it a state exactly, but it is a principle which God produces and which [p. 30] answers to the light of the death of Christ. As far as I know it cannot be defined; it has to be owned to be understood. It is said to be the gift of God. I think the righteousness of God is in the death of Christ, but then its bearing must be seen, and for that you require faith in man.
JAM The righteousness of God is set forth, but faith comes into the gain of it.
Ques Do you speak of faith as a necessary principle for the setting forth of righteousness?
JT Well, faith was there in connection with the death of Christ. Faith always embraces God’s testimony. You could not have any idea of God’s testimony apart from faith.
Ques Am I right in the thought that faith came in after the departure?
JT Oh surely, it contemplates darkness.
Rem And so it says we walk by faith and not by sight.
Rem Abel is the first that was seen to walk by faith. Adam was a figure of Him that was to come, but Abel was more than that; Abel had the substance.
JT You may have a type of Christ in an animal, or in a man, but when you have faith you have got substance. In connection with faith you have the light of God livingly expressed, not simply in a dead type; there was something vital in faith.
WM Would you not say faith is a capacity God gives to receive the death of Christ?
JT Surely; God has placed it in your heart, and it was there in connection with the death of Christ. There never has been a time since Abel when there was not faith in the world. Faith supposes a testimony rendered, I do not believe there ever was a testimony rendered when there was not faith to receive [p. 31] it.
WL The character of the blessing that faith presents to you is connected with the revelation God has made of Himself.
JT So that the faith that there is is really of Jesus; that is the kind of faith; it is not the faith of Abel, it is the faith of Jesus; that is the faith of our day.
Ques And would you say it was another aspect of the display of the righteousness of God in the previous part of that verse — the passing over of the sins that are past?
TMG I think the point is that God always acted upon what was before Him, that is, the death of Christ; and Old Testament saints had faith in whatever light God had given them; and that God passed over sins on the ground of what was coming. Now, the believer’s sins are forgiven on the ground of what has actually come. It is all the same death of Christ.
JT God gave them credit for what they would not have given themselves credit for. Moses is said to have esteemed “the reproach of Christ”; now, Moses would not perhaps have given expression to it.
Ques What is the difference between faith in God and faith in Christ?
JT Faith in God is that you have confidence in God, but when you come to faith in Christ, there is an addition to it; it is that you believe in that order of man.