READING, SEPTEMBER 1949 WESTFIELD, N.J.
[p. 141] READING, SEPTEMBER 1949 WESTFIELD, N.J.
Revelation 15:1 - 4; Revelation 17:1 - 14
JT I intend to enlarge on the thought of judgment somewhat now and we have chosen the book of Revelation for this meeting. It is thought that there is a defective view with us of judgment, especially as it deals with sin; as sin in certain persons or personages or systems in the book of Revelation. There is peculiar testimony to God in it. We are told indeed however, that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11) and He is not willing that any should perish (John 3:15). At the same time the wicked are such, and it cannot be confined to men, the center and origin of it is Satan himself and he is a peculiar antagonist of God directly aiming at God Himself. And God would draw us into accord with Himself, sympathy with Himself in it; in this antagonism that has been aimed at Him from the time of Satan’s fall, whenever that was. He was lifted up because of his beauty, we are told in the figure (Ezekiel 28:17), but he, Satan, is constituted an enemy of God peculiarly. And God would draw the saints into accord with Himself so that we might see what there is for Him in dealing with sin in, so to speak, a wholesale way. I use the word wholesale because it meets the idea of [p. 142] magnitude to understand and how it has a center in the enemy. These few remarks I have made are intended to help us at the outset and to be with us in whatever may come before us in these two passages that we should have clearly in view the full idea of judgment. In chapter 15 the verses read refer to a glass sea, mingled with fire, and those that had gained the victory over the beast, and over its image, and over the number of its name, standing upon the glass sea, having harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses bondman of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and wonderful are thy works, Lord God Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, O King of nations. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and do homage before thee; for thy righteousnesses have been made manifest”. And then part of chapter 17 has to come to mind because it deals with not only the beast but the great Babylon matter in the vision made known to John of the great harlot, and in the description given of the scene, the whole scene we have the history of Europe. I am just speaking briefly as to the whole matter so we shall have it all before us. If you would read from the first verse, to give a further idea, to the end of the fifth verse.
JAP Chapter 17, “And one of the seven angels, which had the seven bowls, came and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew [p. 143] thee the sentence of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they that dwell on the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. And he carried me away in spirit to a desert; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and had ornaments of gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and the unclean things of her, fornication; and upon her forehead a name written, Mystery, great Babylon, the mother of the harlots, and of the abominations of the earth”.
JT And a few verses after it, verse 9 also if you please.
JAP Verse 9, “Here is the mind that has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains, whereon the woman sits. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes he must remain only a little while”.
JT Read on please.
JAP “And the beast that was and is not, he also is an eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into destruction. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have not yet received a kingdom, but receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their power and authority to the [p. 144] beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them; for he is Lord of lords and King of kings: and they that are with him called, and chosen, and faithful”. Revelation 17:11 - 14.
JT These verses are added so that we might see the wickedness of Europe peculiarly as centering in the harlot and these other personages, including the beast, that are mentioned, and how deliverance comes as the verses just immediately read show. It says in the fourteenth verse, “These”, the persons mentioned “shall make war with the Lamb”, that is with Christ, “and the Lamb shall overcome them; for he is Lord of lords and King of kings”. So that the victory is complete in that sense.
Ques They that are with Him “called and chosen and faithful;” are they with Him in the victory?
JT They are chosen, Christ’s chosen are with Him on the same principle as we get in the fifteenth chapter, those on the sea of glass. They are said to have gained the victory over the beast, and over its image, and over the number of its name and they are standing upon a sea of glass, standing in solid purity in victory.
Ques Is there any link with the end of the eighth of Romans, that we had this afternoon, with these people?
JT The link is in the positive sense. Adding to the thought of victory with them here, Romans 8 is in a positive sense as having to do [p. 145] with those of us who actually belong to the assembly, who have the Spirit. What comes out chiefly in the book of Revelation is what happens after the assembly is removed. That is to say what begins in chapter 5 and ends in chapter 19, refers to the period of the three and one-half years after the assembly is taken up leading into the millennium. So it is peculiarly a period of judgment.
RWS Would Europe represent the choicest in the mind of God in the way of the field in its outgoings in the British Empire where the truth has been so well known? Now the enemy comes in trade unionism and other matters in a mysterious way to defeat God if he could?
JT The harlot too of course is involved in that. I think what you say is quite illuminating and should help us in all our conversation at this time.
AR You made a very important remark about opposition against God. I am wondering if Thessalonians would work that out. It says, “Who opposes and exalts himself on high against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”, 2 Thessalonians 2:4.
JT Very good. So that it is anti-God rather than anti-Christ in that passage.
AR So trade unionism really is against God not only against the saints, it is a sin against God do you [p. 146] think?
JT Quite so. According to what we had this afternoon, we have the believer set free from certain elements in order that he should be with God and have part in His service and be victorious as inseparable from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:39). That is what we had this afternoon; we were dealing with the individual Christian or believer. But what is before us now is this question of evil and the part of the earth where it is centred. I think we shall see that the Romish system is involved both religiously and politically. The political side is seen in the seventeenth chapter, it is the Romish system and therefore we have political facts really; not only taking place after the assembly has gone and immediately before the millennium, but even now there are certain things that are involved in the seventeenth chapter, and particularly after. The harlot comes into the seventeenth chapter of course and then the beast on which she rides, and they follow certain things as to the Roman Empire coming up. It says, “it was, and is not, and shall be”. It is presently coming up but it has not come yet. There are certain things that have come up, such as the ten kings referring to the consort of Europe, I believe, and even Napoleon himself in the war of the kings. That king has fallen, the fifth or sixth king has fallen. The whole system is therefore in mind, the whole system of evil as directed against God [p. 147] in Europe.
RWS We missed a word. You used a word, “consort of kings” did you?
JT Of “Europe” I think, a well known term fifty or sixty years ago in political matters. It was called the consort of Europe; they made a great effort to keep the peace. Keeping the peace artificially, but still people were glad, and we were all glad that it was kept, and perhaps going on now is the same sort of thing. This Atlantic Pact is to keep the peace and we are thankful for it because God may be in it. But the crisis or end of the thing will come after the assembly is taken away, after we are gone.
CAM Do you think all that period of peace was in order that the truth one hundred and twenty-five years ago would come?
JT Well, I think so. It synchronized with that. The revival of the truth I believe was synchronized pretty much with the wars and peace in Europe at that time.
CAM I think that would give us a sort of assurance that the truth is to be a testimony in the present setting. God will see that these political matters are kept in subjugation.
JT I think that it is spiritually discerned; those who are spiritual discern and see what is happening publicly, what is happening historically. Not that one would make much of history but history is alluded to, it must be alluded to in these matters, in these political matters that are spoken of in the seventeenth chapter. I think God would keep us acquainted [p. 148] with what is current. As we are near Him we are sensitive as to what affects Him and what affects the testimony too and what affects the assembly.
We are all concerned about it. As for instance during the recent war there were certain men that God raised up to keep back evil and we were thankful for them. But they were only just men and we could hardly say more than that they were taken up of God to check evil. We ought to be thankful for them and pray for them too.
JTJr We need to look at these things from the standpoint of the assembly so that we do not have any natural view ourselves or natural feeling, and that the assembly should have a universal outlook in all these things.
JT Just so. Therefore we would all be kept from prejudice during the past war or earlier wars. There were feelings about Germany and the like, but we should be with God about everything, not being concerned about any particular nation but the whole matter, the whole matter of God, the whole assembly and what affected it!
AR Do you think that Satan transferred his power from Germany to Russia? He seems to be concentrating on Russia now.
JT I think prophecy would help us on those lines. Russia will come in at the last after the millennium is over according to the twentieth chapter, verses 7 - 10 and will come in to encompass the beloved city and fire will come [p. 149] down from heaven to consume Gog and Magog. In the meantime Russia will attack, I believe, when the Jews are restored; and in the end of the millennium, she will attack also; she is called the uttermost north, not the king of the north in the ordinary prophetic sense but the uttermost north, that is where she lies.
DP Was the setup of the imperial empire a help or a hindrance to the testimony?
JT It might help and it might hinder, but undoubtedly in general it hinders. When it becomes apostate, actually apostate, it hinders, and the question is whether Russia has not become apostate, and the question is whether Germany had not become apostate under Hitler. I am only just making those suggestions and I think it is well that we should be aware of these facts and be with God about them.
RWS Whereas the Roman roads were useful to Paul and the apostles, and the Greek language has served the saints.
JT When Rome was in its power that would be so; but then it says she was and is not, it says here, “that was, and is not, and shall be”, but she was in power in Paul’s day, she was there and the Roman roads helped him. We are told how he travelled and arrived at Rome, and the brethren were glad to see him. He arrived around Naples, I would say.
RWS Does that now apply to the British Empire?
JT Very likely, but the question is how [p. 150] long it will keep that way, whether it may not turn apostate itself. I would say so too.
RWS Has not the British power served its purpose?
JT It is serving its purpose, it has served and it is doing it yet. It has not become apostate yet. I am certain, but at the same time it is bordering on it. I am only saying what is actually so if we have eyes to see, to take account of things in a public way which we are entitled to do but as with God. Not merely a matter of history but as with God about what He is doing and what affects His testimony.
Rem Even in chapter 18 we are to arrive at a judgment and God judges the same judgment.
Is that right? “For God has judged your judgment upon her”, verse 20.
JT “God has judged your judgment upon her”, verse 20, that is the statement there. The seventeenth chapter is very expressive as showing what has happened and what we can trace ourselves at any time in the history of Europe, in the nations in the things that have happened.
AR Does the labour class in England in ruling today show this weakness?
JT Well, there is not much to say beyond that it is there. It is weakening the whole position.
AR The empire is really breaking up is it not?
JT I would not say that, I think we ought to [p. 151] go by history. Still at the same time there are certain institutions that are standing. The Church of England for instance is standing. I am not saying that it is exactly of God but still it is certainly standing. I am only referring to facts that God may use in His government and I think He uses the Church of England to hold things.
Rem “That which restrains”, 2 Thessalonians 2:6.
JT The present government has not abolished the church. And then there are certain things to notice and as we are with God we will notice them and God will be with us too in noticing them and help us in our prayers.
SW The Roman system has been coming into prominence by the action of the Russians attacking the Roman church. What would you say about that?
JT It would be God using one thing against another. That is just the thing to notice, I am glad you noticed it because you would rather have that than have Bolshevism or Communism, I would rather have the Roman Catholic church as it is than Bolshevism. There is something anyway that is there that you can take hold of because the bible is recognized formally, I mean just formally.
Rem In Roman Catholic countries the Romish church is considered a brake against evil.
JTJr That would be especially, I suppose, seen in South America where they are nearly all [p. 152] Roman Catholics - one hundred million catholics almost.
JT Probably two hundred million.
CAM Would you not say that that is due to the fact that the Roman Catholic church has maintained the word of Scripture?
JT Yes, so long as it does! The time will come when it will be dealt with, it will be dealt with as severely as the beast is, that is the thing to see.
WWM The word “mind” is used here, “Here is the mind that has wisdom”, and that would be a collective mind, is that the thought? Is that the assembly mind?
JT Quite so. I would say so. Where the Spirit of God is, where the Spirit of God is owned. Because the Spirit of God is in the assembly, you know, He is not in the air, He is in the assembly, that is where He is. He is in that vessel.
Ques Would you say that the Spirit is He who restrains and is in the assembly?
JT Just so. “There is He who restrains now until he be gone”, 2 Thessalonians 2:7, and that which restrains, which is no doubt the political institution, see 2 Thessalonians 2:6.
Ques I was wondering if it helps us to understand the greatness and sovereignty of the Holy Spirit, to see how He does use one thing against another? Is not that His doing?
JT I would say; but I would say more it is God’s doing, God as such, because He deals [p. 153] with government, God does. Of course the Spirit is God too, but when we say the Spirit, it is more the Spirit as in the vessel, down here as in the vessel, the assembly; not on the earth exactly but here in a vessel, and when we use the word “Spirit” that is what should be in our minds. But when it says that which hinders it is a question of the government of God, the government of God is acting there. Is that clear to you?
Ques It is. That helps. I was just thinking as to whether or not it is right to think that the Spirit of God as God is operating in these ways not only in the assembly but for the assembly in other spheres. Is that right?
JT Well, I think when you say as God it is better to keep to what the Spirit is in Himself personally. If you designate Him, speak of Him as Himself, He is a divine Person in Himself. Of course He is God, but still when we speak of Him personally we speak of Him as a divine Person and acting of Himself and for Himself, as the Father does too and the Son does. So that we are baptized to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, that is to say each Person is in mind and They are distinct. When we come to the governments that are holding things or restraining things I would say it is God as such.
JTJr So it is the fury of God here (Revelation 15:1), it is God in that way having to deal with the public [p. 154] side of things.
JT Just so.
FNW Have you not said that God employs angelic service in the governmental sphere?
JT God does, God Himself, quite so. Hence we have the frequency of the word ‘angel’ in this book.
Ques What part has prayer in relation to what you are bringing before us?
JT Well, God owns prayer, God hears prayer, He is the God who hears prayer. It is a peculiar thing that God has pleasure in answering the prayers of His people. He is a God who hears prayer, so we are enjoined to “pray unceasingly” (1 Thessalonians 5:17). God could do everything Himself of course, but He does not, He loves to have His people pray to Him and He loves to answer them. And therefore our prayer meetings are of great importance and there is great joy in them too. Every Monday night I am sure heaven has a time in the prayer meetings.
Ques What you are speaking of would help us to pray and to pray intelligently?
JT I think so. You are with God in doing it too. God sees the very prayers to restrain. There is power in the prayers of the saints. I feel it.
Take a meeting like this, what can happen outside we are not affected by, we are not overcome by it. Even if there be anything rough outside we are not overcome by it, we are in a sphere of power.
Ques The woman riding the beast here, does [p. 155] that not suggest that the Romish system here is in the imperial form?
JT If you look at the passage I think you will see that. Not that we would spend too much time on the seventeenth chapter, but I think it is well to get these salient points. So, if you would kindly read the seventeenth chapter again down to the end of the seventh verse.
JAP Chapter 17 verse 1, “And one of the seven angels, which had the seven bowls, came and spoke to me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the sentence of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they that dwell on the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. And he carried me away in spirit to a desert; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and had ornaments of gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication; and upon her forehead a name written, Mystery, great Babylon, the mother of the harlots, and of the abominations of the earth. And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I wondered, seeing her, with great wonder. And the angel said to me, why hast thou wondered? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of [p. 156] the beast which carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns”.
JT You will notice that, if we have paid attention, in reading the book of Revelation that the woman is Jezebel. She is not called Jezebel here but she is Jezebel in the second chapter (Revelation 2:20 - 23), but here it is the woman or the harlot. On several occasions she is called a woman, so that she is acknowledged as having a sort of dignity, but it is purely wicked, the whole matter. And then she is sitting on the scarlet beast which would be the Romish system, and then we are told what it is, there are seven heads and ten horns and so forth. So that it is the political side here rather than in Revelation 2 which is the spiritual or religious side.
AR Does this chapter, Revelation 17, suggest the revival of the Roman empire?
JT It does. It was, and is not, and shall be; it is called an eighth eventually, it was seven but it is called an eighth, that is the complete revival of wickedness; wickedness opposing the Spirit of God, wickedness endeavouring to overcome the testimony because the word ‘eighth’ refers to an advance on seven, wickedness advancing.
JTJr It is very remarkable that the whole position should be designated ‘woman’ because it is a system of priests and then their women are nuns, yet the whole thing is described as a woman. There must be something in it that the enemy is seeking to use.
JT [p. 157] It is something to offset the assembly, what is in the assembly. God has been surely helping us in calling attention to the sisters and the part they have in the system, the spiritual system, the assembly is spoken of in a feminine sense and therefore the sisters should be characterized by what marks the assembly.
Rem It is one of the seven angels that shows John this, and it is one of the same seven angels that shows him the holy city, the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
JT Very nice. The word bride of course is over against all this wickedness, it is the acme of purity and dignity, the bride, the Lamb’s wife. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come, she has got intelligence.
JAP She, Jezebel, is also said to be a mother here, a mother of certain things over against, would you think, Sarah, “The Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother”, Galatians 4:26?
JT Just so. So that sisters certainly should take it to heart as to whether they are taking on the character of the assembly in that sense and influencing the sense of right amongst the saints.
RWS If it is not diverting, I want to ask about an expression you have used several times lately, the Lord coming in at the supper not only from heaven but from the scene of public testimony. Would all this be involved in that expression coming in from the scene of public [p. 158] testimony?
JT I think it is better to say that He has come in; we say the Lord came to us, He says I am coming to you. But the point would not be that He is coming from heaven but He is here and is here in testimony, and we appreciate that He is still suffering. We speak to the Lord in that sense in the service of God I would say. Is that in your mind?
RWS It is not clear in my mind and that is why I wanted to get it clearer. I always thought of Him coming in from heaven, but two or three times in England you said He comes in from the sphere of testimony and I was not too clear as to it.
JT The idea of suffering must be there. It is expected to be there, the Lord Jesus is in the sphere of testimony yet and He is with us as we are in it too, suffering. It is a suffering time. It has been given unto us on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him but to suffer with Him, to suffer for His name, (Philippians 1:29). (See J.T. New Series 63 Page 208).
Rem At the end of Matthew would that be the thought, “And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age”, Matthew 28:20?
JT Matthew does not say He ascended at all. That is very good, that is Just what it is; “Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age”. That is the suffering time.
CAM That was Galilee, was it [p. 159] not?
JT Just so.
L Do you make a difference between His coming in Matthew and Luke for instance and His coming in in John?
JT Give us the description, Matthew and Luke first, you said?
L In Matthew He is with us always and in Luke He comes in and stands in the midst.
JT And in John He comes in too but He is ascending. The word to the disciples through Mary was, “Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”, John 20:17. That is the attitude He is in, ascending. So that in John it is the more dignified and glorious of the three gospels in that sense, it is the most spiritual so to speak.
AR Do you mean by that that the supper is in relation to the Lord’s sufferings?
JT Well, in that sense. Not that He is personally suffering, although He said to Paul -Paul said, “Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest”, Acts 9:5.
That is suffering. He is not in heaven, He is suffering. He said, “I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest”.
JTJr As if He was right there.
JT Just so.
RWS I wondered if this that you bring in as to the trade union matter and the Romish matter and the intensification of sufferings in the sphere of testimony should intensify [p. 160] our feelings at that part of the service.
JT And therefore we ought to now go back to our first passage, if you read it again from verse 2 to the end of verse 4.
JAP “And I saw as a glass sea, mingled with fire, and those that had gained the victory over the beast, and over its image, and over the number of its name, standing upon the glass sea, having harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses bondman of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are thy works, Lord God Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, O King of nations. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and do homage before thee; for thy righteousnesses have been made manifest”.
JT So it is not that the beast and the number of its name are destroyed but it is the time of that. But these saints that are on a sea of glass are victorious over the beast. It does not say or imply that they destroy the beast but they are victorious over it. And that would mean that one is morally overcoming the things that we are dealing with - morally overcoming them.
Whether we are now morally overcoming as things have come up in our meetings. For instance, in New York we had to withdraw from several, perhaps ten saints, for being in the union. Well, the question is whether they have overcome, whether they feel that they have not overcome the thing, they are still there in it.
[p. 161] Whereas those that are following the truth, they are morally clear, they have the victory over the beast and over the number of its name.
JTJr The glass sea would mean that the whole thing would be clear.
JT Quite so, and pure too.
JTJr Do you think that these matters that came up should be clear. There are certain matters that have been left and should be cleared. The idea of the glass should extend over all these cases.
JT The glass I would say is a type of solid purity, it is fixed purity, therefore the victory is in it.
GH Mingled with fire is really judgment about the thing.
JT Just so, active judgment.
Rem And would faith reckon that the thing is already judged? It says in verse 1, “For in them the fury of God is completed”.
Ques Is the true character of the beast seen in the thirteenth chapter, verse 2, “And the dragon gave to it his power, and his throne, and great authority?”
JT And then the number of its name and then the penalty that you cannot get work if you do not bow down to it. That is this very time, we are suffering in this very time. So the thing is progressive. The thirteenth chapter is not as far as the sixteenth or seventeenth or fifteenth; the nineteenth and twentieth chapters are the destruction of the beast. So that it is progressive.
[p. 162] But the progress has not finished, so the thirteenth chapter contemplates the actual workings of the beast, the other beast too, the second beast the one that is supporting the first beast, there is a dual idea.
P Do we get power if we are delivered from this system by having our eyes upon Christ, as we had in Romans, and then here the sense of the greatness of the Person; “Great and wonderful are thy works, Lord God Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, O king of nations?” Is that the power by which we get deliverance?
JT Very good. You are stressing having your eye on Christ? You are stressing that, having your eye on Christ, looking away from the thing that is affecting you.
Ques Does the song of Moses here bring us back to the great thought of victory?
JT Very good. And the Lamb is the fulness of suffering, the song of the Lamb. The word Lamb contemplates the fulness of suffering in this book of Revelation.
EWS Would Moses’ title “Bondman of God” be in contrast to those who are bondmen in Egypt, which would be like being mixed in trade unionism?
JT Just so. And the word bondman in the first chapter of the book, the word bondman, bondman of God. How does the first chapter read as to bondman?
EWS “Revelation of Jesus Christ, which [p. 163] God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John, who testified the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, all things that he saw”.
JT That is all I wanted you to read because it is very striking that it comes in there as entering into the whole book, and it reminds us of the need of being bondmen, fully in service to God and to Christ.
Ques Do you think there is a reference back to Exodus 24 where the seventy went up, “And there was under His feet as it were work of transparent sapphire” verse 10? It brings Moses in here again as if God never gave up such great features of what was proper to Himself.
JT They went up to God. A beautiful thought I think.
JTJr They would know the things, there would not be any misinformation given out as to what was up there, the thing would be given out properly, what went on with God.
JT So that we are not so far away from the current events in heaven, we are not far away in a moral sense. In Exodus 24, as our brother says, they went up there and there they saw the God of Israel, they saw Him as He was - beautiful thoughts are expressed there.
RWS The thorough way that this matter is dealt with, the victory over the beast number one, and then over its image is two, and then [p. 164] over the number of its name, would challenge us as to any association or link which might be less sinful (I might say) than trade unionism.
Would not a bondman say, I better get out of that too? They have a harp of God, it is beautiful how the harp comes in.
JT Sin and sins may be graded you mean and we want to be out of all of it, quite so.
WS I think what we had this afternoon in connection with the end of the seventh of Romans which reads, “So then I myself with the mind serve God’s law; but with the flesh sin’s law”, verse 25. There is a note in the New Translation in connection with the word “serve”, ‘serve as bondman’.
JT That is a nice note introduced into our service, our conversation. The notes in the New Translation are so important because they give the gist of things.
WS Would you not say too, that according to the fourth verse of the fifteenth chapter we must be morally clear of these things that are mentioned earlier by Dr. S. before we can be in the service of God?
JT We should say more, it says in Revelation 15:4, “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and do homage before thee”. That is to say, do homage, it is a word that of course means worship. And then it says further, “For thy righteousness” in the plural “Have been made manifest”. Showing what the service of God implies. And the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb of course give us the music, the poetic side of the thing that is introduced into the whole matter. The service of song is of so great importance. We have a nice hymn book that is most precious and we use it and God is helping us to use it.
Ques Would you say if we are not clear as to associations that there would be a discord on the meeting?
JT Discord, there would be. There would be a discord in the music you would make.
Ques Is that why they have harps of God?
JT I suppose it is. I think it has been taught and I think it is the truth that the idea of the harp belongs to heaven. It is the only musical instrument used in heaven as far as I know, the harp.
JTJr “Of God” do you think would allude to the way the vessel has been formed “harps of God”, that God had had to do with the person?
JT David speaks about “the instruments which I made, said David”, 1 Chronicles 23:5, and David is the suffering king; the instruments formed where suffering comes in.
JTJr So David has much to do with this book really.
JT It is remarkable how much he has to do with this book. The Lord Jesus is the root and offspring of David.
WWM Would you say that deliverance as [p. 166] you are looking at it here in Revelation could never be enjoyed or entered into unless the deliverance was experienced and understood that we have had in Romans this afternoon?
JT Just so. How could we sing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb and use the harps of God except we are delivered in our souls, the word deliverance used as fully applying to us. As we were saying this afternoon, it used to be a word used by itself; ‘Does he know deliverance?’ We used to say, ‘Does he know deliverance?’ meaning that it is a full thought involved in Christianity. The Spirit is in it befitting us for service, for the service of God.
Rem: There has been a great deal of emphasis in recent times on practical holiness in relation to such matters as unionism. It is a beautiful suggestion here as to “thou only art holy”. Is it not striking that it is introduced here?
JT The sixteenth chapter would help further in that I think, the judgments being stressed because of the holiness of God.
JAP “Thy righteousnesses have been made manifest” would you include the saints in that, in that they are being manifested too?
JT I think so because the same word is used as to the bride, the Lamb’s wife, “to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses” (in the plural) “of the saints”. Revelation 19:8. So that we are thus in accord with the assembly in this section.