WHAT WE HAVE "OF FAITH" (1)
WHAT WE HAVE “OF FAITH” (1)
JT “A building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens”, refers to the body that we are to receive from God. The subject really begins in the 13th verse of the previous chapter: “Having the same spirit of faith”. The apostle is led to speak of the things that we have “of faith”. “For we know” is normal christian knowledge; it is what belongs to those who have faith. “And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true”, 1 John 5: 20. Such passages express what is normal christian knowledge.
B This passage contrasts the temporal with the eternal.
JT “For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time, but those that are not seen eternal. For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens”, 2 Corinthians 4: 17 to 5: 1. The apostle is thus not dealing now, as earlier, with the effect of the ministry of the new covenant, but with the things that are eternal; things that belong to eternity; that belong, as you might say, to the feast of Pentecost. The feast of Pentecost covers that which we have been speaking of — that which is eternal, not governed at all by the limitations of time. The first epistle is, generally speaking, set within the bounds of time; and as the Lord (one speaks with all reverence) had been here in grace within the limitations of time, so the saints are set here in testimony within these same limits, and in these limits we express the will of God and maintain the order becoming to God and to God’s house. But, then, we are also set in relation to what is not bounded by time. It is very suggestive at the beginning of the year when we [p. 218] are looking, as it were, into time to be reminded of all that which enters into it, namely, the testimony that God would set forth in us whilst we remain here. As Peter says “To live the rest of his time ... to God’s will”, 1 Peter 4: 2. But alongside of that we have a relation which is not bounded by time and which time cannot affect. So he says: “While we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time, but those that are not seen eternal”.
ARS There are two houses here — the one we are in at present is called “tabernacle house” but the “building from God” is eternal.
JT The tabernacle suggestion links with the first epistle and covers the position we occupy in relation to the testimony, that is, it is a changeable state of things; but then there is that which is eternal. The temple built by Solomon had a flooring of cedar; you did not stand on the earth, it was on other ground. Whereas the tabernacle had no flooring, it has to do with the earth, and has to do with time — it could be destroyed, but the house from heaven is indestructible.
R S. It is said about this building that we have it from God. What about the “tabernacle house”?
JT The book of Ecclesiastes deals with what comes under the cognizance of man, your natural vision, what is “under the sun”; that is all dealt with there. And it says there: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”, Ecclesiastes 12: 7. It was said to Adam: “Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return”, Genesis 3: 19. A humbling fact for us to accept! That is what we are.
Rem What is the difference between “tabernacle house” and “house”?
JT “If our earthly tabernacle house” — the word “tabernacle” is put there as an adjective. It is descriptive of your present abode. As to the material of the tabernacle, it is earthly and it is movable — it can be taken down. Then it goes on to say: “be destroyed”. It is not simply to be taken down but to be destroyed — it is to become decomposed.
[p. 219] 1 Corinthians 15:44 treats of the thing. “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body”. That which is sown is raised, that is, the identity remains; but he is speaking here of the material which is a destructible thing; but what we receive is indestructible — “a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens”.
ANW Does verse 1 stand in relation to verse 16 of the previous chapter? “If indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day”.
JT The “inward man” corresponds with the “building from God”. The “outward man” perishes; but the inward man is greater than the outward, it is “renewed day by day”, 2 Corinthians 4: 16.
Ques. When do we get it?
JT In resurrection. But it is spoken of here as coming from heaven. In the first epistle it is as the result of resurrection: “It is raised in glory”, 1 Corinthians 15: 43. It is not that we shall see a visible house come down for each of us; that is a mistaken idea. The thought is that it is of that origin. How the thing comes about is another matter. It really comes about by the power of God in the resurrection.
The book of Ecclesiastes helps us in regard of what we are dealing with. The last chapter of the book speaks of dissolution. The person is regarded as a being distinct from his body. “Man goeth to his age-long home”, Ecclesiastes 12: 5. That is what takes place, but we have a “building from God”; but, then, the apostle goes on to say that he is not wishing to be unclothed, that is, he is not looking for dissolution; but he is looking that what is “mortal may be swallowed up by life”.
All this takes place before translation. The apostle says: “For indeed in this we groan, ardently desiring to have put on our house which is from heaven; if indeed being also clothed we shall not be found naked. For indeed we who are in the tabernacle groan, being burdened; while yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life”. He is speaking about God coming in and changing his body, making him in every way suited to the work that has already taken place morally.
ANW “Now he that hath wrought us for this very thing is God”. Does that refer to the inward man?
JT Yes, God has [p. 220] already wrought us for that. He has wrought us for that now.
AFM The interior of the tabernacle was greater than the exterior; but the exterior of the temple was equal to the interior.
JT God did not intend display in the tabernacle. The point was the value of what was inside; but He did intend display in the temple. Ephesians is the collective point of view: “In whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord”, Ephesians 2: 21. That temple involves all this that he is speaking of here.
ANW How does his desire to see what is mortal swallowed up by life agree with his other desire: “If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead”?
JT Attaining unto the resurrection would be subjective — his reaching it in his soul. He is aiming at that as to the state of his soul. “If by any means I might attain”
(Philippians 3: 11) could not refer to what God would do for him; but to what he would attain in a subjective way.
WB Referring again to what is limited by time, what would you say about the covenant in chapter 3? Is that within the bounds of time?
JT Yes.
WB This chapter begins an eternal order of things, a new beginning.
JT In a way. He is dealing with faith: “Having the same spirit of faith”. It is what you do not see in a natural way.
Rem When he says “We know”, does that cover every believer?
JT Normal christian knowledge.
WB Not a subjective work in the soul?
JT The knowledge we have by faith. You are sure of it.
WC The apostle seems very definite about it “We know”.
JT We like to hear some one saying he knows. Nowadays it is, ‘what I think’, or ‘what I believe’. There is very [p. 221] little certainty nowadays. The Scriptures are so pronounced on these matters.
ANW “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear”, Hebrews 11: 3. There is no doubt about that.
JT “I believed, therefore have I spoken”, Psalm 116: 10.
WB Does the earnest of the Spirit help you in your conscious knowledge?
JT “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit”, Romans 8: 16, at least, the principle is in that. We, really, understand all things by the Spirit. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God”, 1 Corinthians 2: 11.
AFM The Spirit is given to us in this chapter as the earnest for our body. The earnest of our inheritance (Ephesians 1) is a different idea.
JT “Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit”. In the first epistle: “Now we have received ... the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God”, 1 Corinthians 2: 12.
H With regard to the question of laying aside our earthly bodies, we can all see the immense gain that will be to us; but wherein will we gain by getting glorified bodies?
JT It all involves greater capacity. We know in part now. “Now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known”, 1 Corinthians 13: 12. Wonderful to think what we shall be: “but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is”, 1 John 3: 2. We have that hope. We cannot define what it shall be like; but we shall be like Him.
JS At present we are much limited.
Rem Will the saints that are with the Lord now have greater capacity when they receive their glorified bodies You cannot say much about the disembodied state. A body is essential to a man for a man is so constituted that he needs it either for enjoyment or for expression.
Rem Is that what the apostle had in his mind when he said: “We do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed”?
JT Just so.
AFM What is behind the expression, “far better”? “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better”, Philippians 1: 23.
JT He had reference to the thought of being with Christ, the One he loved. I suppose love always regards companionship as the greatest thing. But he is not then speaking of what the result was to be for God, or of his own knowledge or service ended. He is only speaking in that remark of his affections for the Lord.
AFM In this passage he says: “Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord”.
JT It was a question of companionship. Love abhors distance, hence the greater the nearness the greater the enjoyment. But then there are other things he is treating of here.
RS In connection with this, Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with the Lord. What kind of a body was it he then had?
JT Scripture does not give you any light on that because the time had not yet come for God to set forth what His thought for man was, and He would not until Christ was glorified. Christ must in all things have the pre-eminence. He is the pattern, the Leader in everything, so “We shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is”
1 John 3: 2. That God could bring in Moses and bring in Elias in such a form that they could communicate with the Lord is simply known to faith. Just as an angel could clothe himself in the form of a man, and as Jehovah did in Old Testament times. All is simply known to faith; but quite outside the range of science.
ARS It is not absolutely necessary to have a glorified body to enjoy the presence of the Lord?
JT Love delights in nearness however disadvantageous the circumstances; but the circumstances of the disembodied state are not wholly such as to conduce to the expression and reciprocation of affection. Love thinks of nearness, but then there are other [p. 223] thoughts.
JS Verse 4 indicates his wish to be here until the moment of the change, holding the thing in testimony.
Rem What would you say about the body in which the Lord appeared in resurrection? Is it the same as we will get?
JT Yes, I do not think there is any change from that. The endings of the gospels and the opening of Acts enlarge on what that body was — how He moved about in it, and how He was outside the range of the natural.
AB “Many bodies of the saints which slept, arose ... and went into the holy city”, Matthew 27: 52, 53. What do you think as to that?
JT “After his resurrection”; you cannot say anything beyond what scripture gives us. It says: “Appeared unto many”. It was obviously a testimony to the great fact that He arose.
ANW As to His body, He died.
JT He laid down His life. “I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment of my Father”, John 10: 17, 18.
ANW Mortal is what is liable to death.
JT You could not say in any sense that He was liable to death. You could say He could die, having received the commandment of His Father; but He dismissed His spirit as an act of power. “For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will” (John 5: 21), but becoming Man He could die.
Rem “Who only has immortality”, 1 Timothy 6: 16.
AFM The passage quoted refers to God the Father.
ANW The Godhead.
JT I think Christ. “Which in his times he will shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see”. It is Christ, only viewed in relation to the Deity for He is the King eternal — “To whom be honour and power everlasting”, 1 Timothy 6: 15, 16.
Rem “A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having”, Luke 24: 39.
JT So He was a real man in resurrection.
Rem Whilst we get the character of the house from God, we do not get the form of it.
JT The form of it is that we will be like Christ. He the pattern.
It is wonderful to have it before our souls. The years are slipping by, one feels oneself weakening, and days becoming shorter. Even in one’s childhood it is an immense thing to keep it always before one — looking at this spiritual house.
WB Does “present with the Lord” refer to the millennial order of things or to every person that pass away?
JT It refers to what takes place the minute you expire.
It refers to what we speak of as the disembodied state What do you mean?
WB What does the expression “Lord” mean here?
JT It is a term that involves our responsibility. We are under the Lord so we wish “whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him”.
WB The Lord is the Administrator in the millennial order of things.
JT I suppose he is dealing with his responsibility. I goes on to the judgment seat, and he speaks of the terror o the Lord, all that enters into it.
JS The responsible path will be in review.
JT Knowing all that was involved in the judgment seat of Christ, he was desirous of being suitable himself, and he persuaded others.
Rem In connection with the judgment seat, the expression is changed.
JT But he says “the terror of the Lord”. The Lord is the one to whom we are directly responsible in our pathway here — He is our despot — there is no escape from His control, so the exercise of the apostle was to be pleasing to Him.
AFM “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord” but there is no terror connected with our appearance there.
JT “The terror of the Lord” refers to evil wherever it is. God has no more regard for sin in you than in an unconverted man. He is against it.
AFM So the effect would be to rouse us, and the judgment seat of Christ will be the termination of our responsible history as men in flesh.
JT It is a question of what has been done in the body. We “receive the things done in the body”.
AFM “Each may receive the things done in the body, according to those he has done, whether it be good or evil”. Does it cover one’s whole life?
JT Yes, from infancy. God judges every one from the outset.
Rem The bad would refer to our unconverted days?
JT I am afraid it has to be extended on with most of us, alas!
ANW What do you receive? I do not expect to receive anything from the bad things I have done.
JT It refers to the place we are to occupy — what the Lord thinks of our service, of our testimony here. How much there has been in it for God and how much for the flesh. The receiving for the bad would imply loss of the positive.
Ho More on the line of credit and loss.
JT The honour would be smaller.
JS Is one to offset the other here, or is it a question of the manifestation of all? “We must all be manifested”.
JT It is credit and loss here. I do not understand it in any other sense. Nothing like punishment.
WB Does the whole life come into review?
JT I do not think we are all brought up together. I think the principle of the judgment seat is that each case is taken up by itself. It has reference to the place we shall have in the kingdom. “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire”, 1 Corinthians 3: 15. He suffers loss on account of the character of his work. I think, in principle, he loses what he should have had normally in the way of reward for his [p. 226] service.
JS Is not this the finishing touch regarding our apprehension of things?
JT Your conscience may not condemn you now; but, then, the apostle says, “Yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who ... will make manifest the counsels of the hearts”, 1 Corinthians 4: 4, 5. He will bring to light everything, and when we are manifested before the judgment seat we shall see everything as He does.
ANW Would the case of the converted thief throw any light on it? He was a man who had lived a bad life and was dying for it, and he asks that the Lord would remember him when He comes into His kingdom, which the Lord does not seem to take account of; but He says, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”, Luke 23: 43.
JT He will be in the kingdom too. The Lord well knows how to appraise. No one ever rendered testimony like that. It was unique.
AFM Would you then encourage us to pass the judgment seat now as Paul did? He says that he was already manifested. It was from him as though he had already passed it.
JT I would not like to say it just as strongly as that. For he said: “Yet am I not hereby justified”. Even though his conscience did not condemn him, he would not rest in that. After all, the heart is so deceitful that there might be a shade (as in fact there was in certain things) that you cannot see, but the Lord can see it.
Some one was speaking to me the other day about Mr. Darby; when he was dying, he said: ‘What will the Lord say to me?’ He had a good conscience, I have no doubt, as to his path; but then the thing was not yet disclosed. What would the Lord say? That is a very solemn thing.
All rights are reserved in regard of judgment — the Lord holds all rights, hence, you are to wait and when the Lord passes His verdict things may not be just as you thought they were. Not only the things but the motives — the motives from whence the things spring — these have to be dealt with.
Rem “We persuade men, but have been manifested to God”.
JT He was manifested to God; but he does not say that everything was manifested to him. “For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of the Christ”. We shall be manifested there.
WB What does the word “manifest” mean?
JT Everything is seen and transparent; all is out. It will have a very great effect on us. All is closed behind, never to be revived; but, not only that, you have an intelligent judgment of things. Sitting beside the Lord, you will see it all as He sees it — it is manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, not before the universe. Courts of justice are not necessarily for public display. The point is, to get at the truth — that the truth should be out.
Ho Is the principle in John 4?
JT Yes. “Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did”, John 4: 29. But, in fact, He had only said “Go, call thy husband”.
Rem In Revelation you have the idea of eyes all over.
JT All-seeing; but here the thing is gone into so that you see it. It is manifested there.