FULL GROWTH
[p. 165] FULL GROWTH
Hebrews 5: 11 - 14; Hebrews 6: 1 - 6; Ephesians 4: 7 - 16
JT In the epistles which contemplate the saints being hindered in growth, there is much reference to the babe-state, as in Corinthians and Hebrews; it is a state in contrast to what is called perfection, which means full development. Naturally the development of all the senses is supposed to be commensurate with physical development. I thought it might be helpful to look a little at these references, so that we might get help from the Lord in seeing how we should move on to perfection. What is to be remarked is, I think, that the Old Testament saints could not have arrived at perfection, however pious and righteous and holy they might have been. There could never have been perfection until the divine thought was presented in Christ in manhood. They were said to have been kept under tutors and governors, and therefore in a sort of nursery, until the time appointed of the father, and hence, “when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship”. Then we read: “Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. (Galatians 4:4 - 6) We have arrived at the time of perfection, and hence the seriousness of remaining in a dwarfed or babe-state, when it is a time of full growth. In connection with that we have necessarily the great subject of food, the food that is becoming to a babe, and the food that is suited to a man, to one that is full-grown.
GFM It says in Hebrews 11, “God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect”. The better things remain to the last. Is that the thought?
JT Yes. “All these died in faith, not having received the promises”. “Not having received”. I think the eunuch perhaps describes somewhat the state of Old Testament inquirers, for it was a time of inquiry. “Of whom”, he says,”speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? And Philip began at that same scripture, and preached unto him, Jesus”. That is what his soul needed. The idea in the gospel is to preach an object both for man’s heart and his intelligence, and as that object is rightly apprehended, as the light of heaven comes into the soul, the growth begins, and that is to advance to the full stature of the One who is thus presented.
WF Is perfection presented in the object?
JT Perfection is presented in the object; exactly. The four gospels if rightly understood become the great, the supreme theme, for the soul. They present perfection, absolute perfection, in a Man. The epistles prepare us for that. They supply the details for the extrication of the soul; they remove all the things that would hamper the soul; they supply the teaching. The apostle says, When ye ought to be teachers ye have need of teaching; that is, the teaching of the epistles. But having learnt the truth presented in the epistles, then the gospels become the supreme object of study and meditation. Other scriptures, of course, have their place, but no scripture is on the same level as the gospels.
WH Would you connect the gospels with solid food?
JT Quite. That is where a full-grown person goes for nourishment; that is where his soul is sustained.
WS Would you say that in the epistles we get the teaching, and in the gospels the exemplification of the [p. 167] teaching?
JT Exactly, for everything is found objectively in Christ.
WF In Philippians the apostle says, “That I may know him”. And then he speaks of the perfect. Is that the thought of the perfect object?
JT I think so. That is, those whose spiritual sensibilities are in full development and exercise. Is that your thought?
WF Yes; I was thinking that was in line with what you were saying. Defect might come in if we had not the perfect object before us.
JT I think that is where the great defectiveness exists amongst Christians in nominal Christendom; the object is not before them, hence the great importance of teaching. “When for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God”. That is extremely applicable at the present time. Christ, God’s thought or ideal is not before souls, and hence they have defectiveness of growth. There is devotedness, but the senses are not developed. There is not full proportionate development. Development in those who are nominally in the truth is often out of proportion. There is intelligence often developed without affection, and vice versa.
JS Would that scripture in Proverbs come in, “The legs of the lame are not equal?”
JT I think it would.
DD Would increase of light as to the Old Testament promote the growth?
JT I think the light brings in that which is set before your soul, and growth is in response to it. There is an object, a pattern. Gift is to that end, to bring light to the soul. “Till we all arrive”. The Lord helps us through gifts, but then who are helped through gift? Only those that are exercised; hence he says, “For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs [p. 168] meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God; but that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned”. That is, we might have all the apostles’ ministry, but unless there is exercise there is no result. As we see here, the Hebrew Christians had the benefit of the ministry of the twelve apostles, and yet they are but babes.
GFM “Those who, by reason of use, have their senses exercised”.
JT If senses are allowed to lie dormant they really cease to perform their function, and one becomes imperfect if anyone of the senses is not in use.
GFM Do you not think there is a danger of our stopping at the knowledge of Christ as Saviour and not going on to Christ as the supreme object before our souls?
JT I think that is it, the Man. So the apostle in his announcement preached that Jesus is the Son of God.
DD I was thinking in relation to the man in the gospel, who, when he got his eyes opened, only saw men as trees walking.
JT But the passage goes on to say that the man saw all things clearly when he got the second touch. Then the Lord raises the question with His disciples as to who He was. “Whom say ye that I am?” And that is for the soul to find out. The Lord would have Himself before us. It is not only that you see all things clearly, but you must see Him in the centre of all these things. “Who he is”. Zacchaeus too, sought to see Jesus who He was. That was his exercise. He climbed the sycamore tree, we read, to see Jesus, who He was. It is a great inquiry in the soul as to who He is; therefore we ought to read the gospels.
GFM I suppose the effort of the enemy would be to get the saints to detach things from Christ; [p. 169] to be occupied, for instance, with what He has done.
JT To apprehend anything rightly we must apprehend it in its relation to Christ, if we want to see it in its fulness. We have to hear it in connection with Him.
Rem Saul began by asking the question, “Who art thou, Lord?”
JT That was a good inquiry. He began well, and what a good finish he made.
Ques Do you think that the epistles come in in order to deliver us so that we get the full benefit of the Holy Spirit, and we are thus able to look at the gospels and see the perfection of Christ?
JT I think that is right. The epistles are like the removal of the grave clothes. “Loose him and let him go”. And if he is let go; that is, wholly relieved from his own side and his own needs that hold him, he will go to the gospels.
WH So that in John 12 they make the Lord a supper.
JT Lazarus was one of those who sat at table with Jesus. That is, in experience we sit down to meat with Him. It is the greatness of the Person that detains, so that, if the grave-clothes are removed, Lazarus can be found at the supper table. It says that the Lord came to Bethany six days before the Passover, where Lazarus was who had been dead, and whom He raised from the dead; there they made Him a supper; that is, where Lazarus was. It does not say exactly he made it personally, but they made it, and Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table. It does not say who the others were. The point was to take account of the man who was free from the trammels of death.
WS So that Lazarus became a very powerful testimony to the power of Christ, and they wanted to kill him as well.
JT Yes. One who has gone through the epistles [p. 170] experimentally can take care of himself in that sense. I do not know that we have remarked on the effect of the ministry of the apostles. On our side the word is “Loose him and let him go”. The epistles represent what ministry can do. The man is released, and it does not say where he is to go: it is just, “let him go”; and you will see where he will go. You will find he will read the gospels, and feed there; and then he will read the Old Testament, because it is in the gospels that we read that the Old Testament testifies of Christ. In the epistles it is “Every scripture is divinely inspired, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto every good work”, 2 Timothy 3:16. All that is for relief, for help, but the Lord’s reference to the Old Testament is that it testifies of Him, of Christ, hence the man who can read the gospels will go to the Old Testament for Christ. If you go to the epistles you go for things that help your soul, help to relieve you; but if you go to the gospels you go for Christ, to see Christ there; so that in the gospels you contemplate Himself.
GFM Would you say the eunuch obeyed the form of doctrine from the heart, and he was let go?
JT And he went on his way. It does not say he went on his chariot, though doubtless he did go in the chariot, there would be no other way literally, but he went on his way. It has a spiritual reference he went on his way rejoicing.
GFM He went after the Man.
JT That is the idea. He had Christ in his heart.
JS Would you say it would be necessary to have the heart established with grace, so that coming to the gospels we contemplate Christ objectively?
JT Yes, I am sure that is so. We need to be strengthened. We are trying to make clear the distinction between the epistles and the gospels, the [p. 171] way the epistles take account of the Old Testament, and the way the gospels take account of it, especially the Lord Himself where He comments on it. “Beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself”. It was not a question of relieving them, but of instructing them in regard to Himself.
GFM I think that is very helpful.
WF What about that part of the epistle that goes on to divine purpose for the assembly and divine purpose for the saints in Christ?
JT That would be all from our side. The mystery of the assembly is to bring in the saints as fully qualified to be the bride, and that is what Ephesians aims at. “Till we arrive”, it says, and that is the great thing. It is to have Christ before us, and then every bit of exercise results in a little more; it may be very tiny, but it is a little bit more of conformity to Christ. That is how one finds it in one’s experience. We may go through very heavy pressure, and we wonder why; but if we are with God in it, we pray; we meditate; we seek to get sustenance; and presently we find a little bit of headway has been made, but the result is that there is some additional conformity to Christ, and nothing else counts. That is the gold out of all the refining. And so, as you remarked, Philippians presents to us the converse of Ephesians, that is, it is the aim of a man who is exercised. He tells us formally what he has in his mind in his exercises. “I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things that are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus”. “That I may know him”, he says, “if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection from among the dead”. What I would remark at that point is the great importance of young believers [p. 172] learning to do things for themselves, because that is how progress really begins. It is true that God does everything for us in one sense, but Peter says to Aeneas “Arise, and make thy bed for thyself”. He had to do that; it was a simple thing to do. He says, Do it for yourself; and if he does that, then he will do something else.
WH It involves having your senses exercised; they are brought into play.
JT Yes; it does. A man who has been making his bed has to exercise himself to some extent. He had been over eight years without any exercise. He did not move his hands and his feet, and they would have naturally lost their power; I do not mean to say because of the palsy, but not using them his whole system was affected. But now he begins to make his bed; his body, and the members of it, are brought into activity, and that is the initial idea of spiritual progress.
Rem In Hebrews it is a question of having the senses exercised, but in Ephesians we arrive at a living organism.
JT We are in relation to the whole body, but first we have to learn to do things for ourselves, then we learn how to act with others.
DD How would you interpret that scripture, “Work out your own salvation”, Philippians 2:12 ?
JT There it was a collective thought. The apostle had been accustomed to help them, and now, not being present with them, they had to work out their own salvation. “It is God that worketh in you”. What I am remarking on is of primary importance for young Christians. At the beginning they are accustomed to have everything done for them; a babe has everything done for it, but a babe has to get down and walk; then his limbs begin to act and to be used. Then it may be you will see intelligence evidenced, and the affections, and the true parent or [p. 173] nurse, as Paul uses the term in Thessalonians, would help to develop all these things in the child. So, as I was saying, you make your bed for yourself. Suppose one is ensnared by the devil, which, alas! happens oftentimes and falls into sin, or gets away from the Lord; the saints are praying for him and the Lord goes after him. But then the Lord will bring him to the point where he has to move. So it says, “that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil”. There is a point where you have to move, and the Lord will help you. If there is to be final deliverance you must recover yourself.
GFM It is important to go on to maturity.
JT One has seen it so often where there has been defection. People seem to get to a point, and they get no further; they do not go on. It is because they do not make an effort. One would not put anyone under bondage, but it says, “that they may recover themselves”; that is, after a certain process has proceeded to a point.
GFM Those verses in Hebrews are all on the responsible line.
JT Quite.
Rem We have power to act and to move. The Spirit has been given for that purpose.
JT Yes.
WS I have heard it said the Lord will not do for you what you can do for yourself.
JT I think that is right. “Meekly instructing those that are opposing ... that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil”, 2 Timothy 2:26. It is for those who are dealing with the case to instruct meekly, so that there may be nothing to interfere with the soul recovering itself.
GFM So that those with exercised senses would not put anything in the way; they would rather tend to clear the way.
JT That is it. So that he says, “Leaving [p. 174] the beginning of the doctrine of Christ”. It is movement to go on to perfection.
WS It would not be so much the rate of progress that would engage one, but the objective, to reach perfection.
JT If one keeps one’s eye steadily on the objective, and, as I remarked, the gospel presents that to you, then every little bit of progress you make is in that direction.
WS What is this beginning that is to be left? “the word of the beginning of the Christ”. Would it be their thoughts of Christ more in connection with Him as Messiah?
JT I think so. Their thoughts were Jewish, and they were stopping at that. It was right enough in its place, but God had moved on.
GFM Do you think it would be for us what is elementary? that is, elementary thoughts of Christ got at the beginning. We are not to be limited to that.
JT Strictly we could not have these thoughts; I mean thoughts that were in themselves Jewish, and were strictly right when the Lord was here in connection with Judaism. They have no longer any force with Christians.
WS It would not apply now, because we do not have to leave anything.
JT That is right. That is a good remark.
WS Is that the way he begins the epistle with the greatness of the Son?
JT Yes; that is it. “That which is from the beginning”, as in John. We do not leave that, because the bearing of all that is toward Christianity.
GFM Would you say the voice to us in this is that we might not stop short of perfection?
JT That is the voice for us. Christendom’s so-called sects stop short here; they are Judaising; it is Judaism in the principle of [p. 175] it.
JS We read that a scribe instructed brings things new and old out of his treasure.
JT The new things would be concerning Christ in heaven; that is Christianity; old things, as we have already said, “are they which testify of me”; “things concerning himself”. We get references to Christ in the Old Testament, as far back as Genesis. If you look at it, its age only enhances its value. It is like an antique. Antiques are very valuable. The older they are the more valuable. It is not like an effete thing. In Hebrews the old thing is an effete thing, it decayeth and is ready to vanish away, but in Matthew the old thing is valuable. The older the more valuable.
WH The more you know of the new, the more you will value the old.
JT Quite so. Look at the things which shine in the Old Testament as we see them in the light of Christ as He is now. How delightful it would be to go through with Him what He expounded unto them from the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
PSP I suppose we have to feed upon Him in the gospels.
JT Yes, that is what I was thinking. There are new things connected with Him, but the old things are not to be despised. With antiques they can give you the date, and the older they are the more valuable they become. And so with the precious things of Christ in the Old Testament.
JS Is the Old Testament covered by the law, the prophets and the Psalms?
JT Quite so. How rich the Christian is! Like unto a man that is an householder which brought forth out of his treasure things new and old. It is very noticeable that it is said of every scribe instructed unto the kingdom of heaven. A scribe is usually an accurate man. Writing induces accuracy. Ezra is [p. 176] the scribe of scripture; he was a ready scribe in the law of His God, the God of Israel.
GFM I suppose things new and old would refer to variety and freshness. There is no sameness in divine things.
JT I think it is beautiful to see how the Lord has opened up the Scriptures through the servants he has raised up in the last century. What had Christendom? There is not a sect that could have a Bible reading; that is to say, they could not sit down and have a reading of the scripture. The circumstances in which they are forbid it. Whereas, when you come to recognise the Lord, and the Spirit, and the authority of Scripture, it is wonderful what comes out. One of the best illustrations of it is in the book of Nehemiah. Ezra stood up and read the Scriptures, and the Levites caused them to understand; that was the first day’s meetings. On the second day’s meetings the elders came together with the Levites and Ezra, and they found more! They found the feast of Tabernacles. They found more than they had had since the days of Josiah! That was because the Scriptures had their place, and were read with intelligence; men were subject and dependent. We little value what the Lord has done for us in raising up these men who caused us to understand the sense. In the synagogues of Israel they were accustomed to read, but how much did they understand? It is said they read Moses every Sabbath day, but did they understand? No. But the Lord stood up for to read in the synagogue. He took the scriptures from the attendant in the ordinary way, and stood up for to read, and selected His scripture. And then He said, “This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears”, Luke 4:21. This one! There was one scripture made plain and verified. How much they could be advanced if they were only equal to it! But they were not. He sat down and closed the book. In Luke 19, as [p. 177] they were listening, He went on and said a great deal more. It is where there is interest that you get the Scriptures opened up.
WH So that if a few persons come together who are exercised, we have conditions for the opening out of the Scriptures.
JT We should learn to come together in the light of the temple. The saints are the temple, because they have the Holy Spirit, and where that is recognised there is light.
GFM Do you think the thought of the scribe remains?
JT I think it is especially applicable today, because things are scattered as in Ezra’s day. If you can get them all to Jerusalem, good and well. But that is scarcely possible. So we have to write. The Lord is pleased to minister in that way. I think Ezra is a reminder to us of the importance of writing. Of course, there is such a thing as the making of many books without end. But there are the words that are spoken, suited words, “acceptable words”. So coming to Ephesians for a moment, it is not now simply that we know how to do things for ourselves, but we know how to act with others. One learns how to take his place in relation to the body, so that we have “self-edifying in love”. That is, the principle is carried through from the individual to the company. If you learn to do things for yourself individually, that develops into the truth of the assembly “unto its self-edifying in love”. The gifts are to be a help to that, but there is a point reached where the saints edify themselves.
DD Do you think that is in connection with the Head, the saints themselves edifying themselves in love?
JT That is what it says, I think, in Ephesians 4: 16.
WH In that way the assembly is self-[p. 178] supporting.
JT That is right. You will notice it is “growing up unto him in all things”. That is, you are proportionate.
DD Does that take in all the four gospels?
JT I think that is the idea. You have the full thought.
WH Gifts do not come into verse 16, although they are members of Christ.
JT Quite. A gift is distinct. It is in order to bring about the state described in verse 16. That is to say, it is in order to prevent the saints remaining in a babe state; that we should be all men.
PSP What the gift takes up is part of what you were speaking of, individual activity. The gift has to be in movement if the saints are to move collectively.
WS What is the difference between growth in verse 13, and increase in verse 16?
JT I think “we all” is the saints taken severally. We have not as yet come to the thought of the body.
Rem Which is of Christ.
JT That is the thought — that there should be uniformity. The body is strictly composed of men, saints who are fully developed. “In understanding be ye men”, 1 Corinthians 14:20.
WF The body is derived from Christ.
JT The gifts are for the edifying of the body of Christ. They work to a point, but disappear, and you have a structure that is related to Christ and co-ordinated from Christ as the Head; so that it is self-supporting. It is a wonderful thought. It was the great thought God had in His mind before the world, a company formed in intelligence and affection, self-edifying in love, all in vital relation to Christ in heaven.
PSP Do you connect this with the heavenly city? In Revelation it speaks of the measure of a man.
JT I think the four gospels present that.
Rem So that it is “the man” we get in Ephesians.
JT The full-grown man.
DD Is it the gift that presents the light of that in your soul?
JT I think gift is for that, to bring out the great principles of the truth, the unity of the Spirit and the unity of the faith in connection with the saints. The unity of the Spirit is not connected with gifts. What a thing it would be if we could only see the divine thought is to bring about a company or a number of intelligent persons formed with all the senses developed, so as to correspond to Christ, and that it is the aggregate of each that forms the body; hence there is no schism in the body; it is held in intelligence and in affection.
DD The teaching of the various gifts tends to unity.
JT I think it is very beautiful in the Acts to see how the teaching of the twelve and the teaching of Paul agree. There was the unity of the faith. Peter, I think, is led of the Holy Spirit to speak of Paul’s teaching, so that it might be clear that there was no discrepancy, no division of thought between the apostles; the unity of the faith marked them.
WS Each had his own way of presenting it, but they did not disagree about the terms.
JT I think it is very fine to see how Peter says, “Our beloved brother, Paul”, 2 Peter 3:15. I think that is one of the finest statements you could get. And he connects Paul’s writings with the other scriptures.
Rem So that in looking at the body we come to perfection.
JT Quite so. We could not think of Christ’s body being anything less than perfect.
WH Peter did not say, It is wrong. He says, It is beyond me. He did not say it was not the truth because it was beyond [p. 180] him.
JD When you come to full age, you come to the activity of priesthood?
JT I think that is right. Priesthood is dependent on one being a full-grown man. Priesthood is founded on sonship.
Rem Every son is a priest.
JT Quite. I believe that in these days the Lord is bringing about assembly state, a state that He can approve, that answers to His mind, to the assembly. He looks at that which He can regard as the assembly; the state is there, however limited, and the quality is there.
GFM One has thought that while things in the world are heading up to the man of sin, the saints are being educated in regard to Christ.
JT The only antidote to the man of sin is to have the Lord before us as He is presented in the gospels.
GFM God would not have us to lower the ideal, to have a less ideal than Christ.
JT No.