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THE KNOWLEDGE OF DIVINE PERSONS AND THINGS READING (4)

SMcC This tenth chapter, in the portion of it that we have read, brings up the knowledge that is amongst the sheep of Christ in regard to Christ Himself, the Shepherd, and also brings out the thought of His knowledge of them. What the Lord says in verse 14 is very affecting, “I am the good shepherd; and I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father”. It would seem that the divine standard of knowledge is with the sheep of Christ according to that verse, which should affect us; then in John 14, the knowledge of divine Persons as it comes before us in that exalted setting: first the knowledge of the Father - how important it is in this gospel that we should know the Father, and God as presented in the Father; then the knowledge of the Holy Spirit, as the Lord says the world does not see Him nor know Him, “but ye know Him”, alluding to the disciples, “for he abides with you and shall be in you”. And then His reference to the assembly day, the Spirit’s day, and His own place in divine affections - the perfect state of love that is contemplated in verse 20, “In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”. A perfect state of love is contemplated, and the wondrous knowledge that is linked with it. I thought we should consider briefly this 10th chapter, and then give the major part of the time to the 14th chapter.

Our place as the sheep of Christ is important - what we are as marked out in the light of John’s ministry in this way: the objects of divine attention, and the peculiar glory of Christ as the Shepherd, the good Shepherd, who lays down His life for the sheep; all this accentuating the holy activities of love, in the mediatorial economy into which God has come. We shall never understand the economy if we do not understand and appreciate love. The measure of our spirituality can be taken account of by the measure in which we are formed in love. It is not much use talking about spirituality if we are not formed in love, for the two go together, and this chapter accentuates the links in holy love between the sheep and the Shepherd, and the service of holy love on the part of the Shepherd in laying down His life for the sheep.

EJH Is it on that account that the sheep never go astray - sheep of this kind cannot stray?

SMcC Yes, that is because John’s sheep know Christ. They do not know the voice of a stranger. A remarkable statement that, in regard to John’s sheep - the sheep of Christ; it says “they know not the voice of strangers” (verse 5) but they know the Shepherd’s voice.

AHn Does that link up with what you were referring to this morning as to the remarkable intuition there is amongst the body of the saints? It says in verse 4, “they know his voice”; and verse 8, “the sheep did not hear them”; and then what you have referred to in verses 14 and 15.

SMcC Yes, exactly. How all this should affect our souls as to our links in holy spiritual affinity with Christ as in the figure of the sheep! He Himself in this gospel is referred to as the Lamb of God - a touching allusion to Christ in holy manhood here.

ECL Does the reference to Mary in John 20 illustrate what you are saying, “She supposing that it was the gardener”, did not know Him, but when He said “Mary” she immediately says “Rabboni”?

SMcC Very good - that exactly illustrates what we have here, and it is also seen in the man in John 9. He says in verse 36, “who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage”. A true sheep of Christ, he discerns whose voice it is speaking, “he that speaks with thee is he”, and he answers to it. The allusion in chapter 10 verse 3 is important, “To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out.” There is an abstruse allusion to the Holy Spirit in this figure - the porter; that is, that we are to be conscious that the Spirit will make way for Christ; He is not making way for the false shepherds, those that mount up elsewhere, thieves and robbers. It is remarkable that the Lord speaks in this way; it must have been the Pharisees and what He had to say to them in chapter 9 which drew out this plain speaking of the Lord as to those that mount up elsewhere being thieves and robbers, “but he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter opens”. No doubt an allusion to the holy scene recorded in the synoptic gospels where the Spirit comes upon Him as He enters upon His public ministry.

TJG Is there a link between the thought of the sheep and the resolving of the question as to who Christ is? I am thinking of the reference to Solomon’s porch later on in the chapter and the Lord then speaking of the sheep as hearing His voice and so on.

SMcC Well, that is the point - they know the shepherd. In the 23rd and 24th verses it says, “Jesus walked in the temple in the porch of Solomon. The Jews therefore surrounded him and said to him, Until when dost thou hold our soul in suspense? If thou art the Christ, say so to us openly”. Think of the innuendo in that; think of what they were implying, that He was secretive about matters, the aspersion they cast upon Him and His ministry, “Until when dost thou hold our soul in suspense?” He was not holding their soul in suspense - someone else was doing that, but He had taught openly in their synagogues and their temple; but they are casting this aspersion on Him, “If thou art the Christ, say so to us openly”. Peter and the others in whom active faith was operative discerned who He was - the Holy One of God, the Christ.

WSS You were speaking of spiritual affinity with Christ. Would that involve our having in our measure the same thoughts and feelings in regard to the sheep as He Himself has?

SMcC Yes, it would; that is, leadership enters into this section. That is what is in mind in what the Lord says. As we think of what happened in the 9th chapter, what a wrong lead they would give the man - they would lead him out of the truth altogether, operating as they were, taking the place of knowing things, and seeking to lead the man and instruct him. The Lord no doubt has all that in mind when He speaks of the thieves and robbers in this chapter and then refers to His own leadership, “he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out”.

JPH Would you say something as to verse 2, “he that enters by the door”, then later down, “I am the door”?

SMcC Well, I think the reference in verse 2 is to the legal way in which the Lord came in. He did not come in in any clandestine way, He came in the right and legal way; He came in by the door, and the porter opened to Him, and that would be what is in mind in verse 2, whereas in verse 9, “I am the door”, is an allusion to what He was in Himself in manhood, in the great mediatorial position. There is only one way to God, and that is through Christ - there is no other way.

CH The first reference stands connected with His entrance into the fold, but the second to His being a door in relation to the flock.

SMcC That is important to notice as to the fold. There is no fold now; the idea of the fold is terminated. Divine Persons now take the place, if we might so say, of the fold, in that the hand of Christ, the Shepherd, and the hand of the Father are the confines in which the sheep are now held, and kept in the region of eternal life, and they shall never perish.

WJB In referring to verse 3, “To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice”, etc., does that bring in the intimacy between the Lord and the sheep and also the Spirit and the sheep? It seems as though the Spirit enables us to recognise the Lord’s voice.

SMcC That is right, and it is important that we should recognise His voice. This gospel makes a good deal of the voice of Christ, and it is important that we should recognise His voice down here, because a sheep does not exactly allude to what we are in heaven, or in eternity - it alludes to what we are down here in a defenceless position externally, but in a well-defended position spiritually, as in the hand of Christ, the Shepherd, and in the hand of the Father.

EJH The Lord delighted to call attention to the characteristics of the sheep, and on that account He acknowledges them with delight as divine property - His own.

SMcC Yes; that is, they are the subjects of the work of God, as is the blind man. It is really a carrying forward of what we have set out in principle in chapter 9: the subject of the works of God. Now we get it in a collective setting here, “there shall be one flock, one shepherd” - the glory of the work of God in this setting.

PHH Does ‘the voice’ open with us some exercise as to the speaker and the way that he is speaking? We have earlier the voice of the bridegroom, the voice of the Son of God, and now the voice of the Shepherd. All the same Person, but not saying the same things in the same way.

SMcC No, exactly; so the Shepherd’s voice is important in this section, where Jewish opposition has been so strong, and would deflect a man - the subject of the works of God as we have it in the 9th chapter. It is important that the Shepherd, the person who has such absolute care for the sheep - His voice should be known and that He should be followed.

PHH Does the voice raise with us the exercise as to some living expression at the time? We might be quite clear in terms as to the Person of Christ and so on, but He is speaking in a different way at different times, and different matters are involved.

SMcC That is one of the things that is particularly on one’s mind and heart in this reading - the importance of the voice, and active love as it is seen in this chapter, because, while we may all be concerned to get the terms of the truth rightly, it is important that we should see that we have to do with living Persons. The Lord speaks in this gospel of the living Father; we have to do with living Persons, and the matter of divine affections entering into our relations with Them.

AJG The voice of the shepherd is to regulate the movements of all the flock, would you say? One flock, one shepherd, and one voice, you might say, for the whole flock?

SMcC Very good. You mean that it stresses the thought of unity in regard of the saints - one voice. I think it is good that we should see that, because in Corinthians Paul speaks of different voices: “There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world and none of undistinguishable sound”, but the great thing is the Shepherd’s voice, the voice of this Person, for a divine Person is the Shepherd.

AWGT Does not that show itself in Paul’s ministry? In Acts 9: 4, note ‘r‘ and in chapters 22 and 26 the voice is referred to in both the genitive and the accusative; that is, it is not only the oral voice but what is before the mind. Does that help at all?

SMcC Well, it does. It is interesting, too, how Acts 20 is full of the spirit of John 10, is it not? The love side, the sheep side, the flock of God - all that is entering into Acts 20, is it not, in relation to Paul’s ministry?

AWGT It is indeed.

AHG And does the voice have particular bearing in relation to a religious setting of things?

SMcC Yes, the fold, leading them out of the fold, the fold representing an ordered religious system of things that the Lord has come into, and He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. When He has put forth all His own He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him. All this involves the death of Christ and His burial and resurrection; it is all entering into this chapter in view of the sheep being in all the liberty and the unity of the one flock and the one Shepherd.

WOS Would the Lord’s remark in verse 15, “I am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father”, be calculated to move us in relation to affection as you were saying?

SMcC It would. It is a remarkable reference that we have here, “I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father”. Think of the way in which the Father knows Christ and in which He knows the Father. The Lord would not be alluding to what we might call the knowledge of Deity here so much; it is “am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father”. He is alluding to what is in the economy and Their relations together - He in manhood and sonship, and the Father in that glorious relation as Father to Christ.

TBC Is the voice discerned in the ministry?

SMcC Well, it may be; the voice of Christ enters into the ministry, and has a unifying effect on the saints - it is one voice; not half a dozen voices, but one voice, which has in mind the one flock.

AHn You referred to Acts 20. I wonder if I might ask you to say a word as to the Spirit operating in view of shepherding? Paul there seems to have that in mind, “wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers”, and immediately he goes on to speak of shepherding. Would the Spirit be operating like that today?

SMcC Well. He is. The Lord has gone on high; He is now in heaven, functioning in heaven as a man in relation to the wondrous administration that has been established and inaugurated there, and the Spirit has come, and is here, and He is augmenting the shepherd service of Christ in the way that He sets on the care for the flock as we have it in Acts 20.

GAL You could hardly have the flock, could you, apart from the Lord having gone into death and having risen and been glorified, and the Spirit being here. All that would be involved in the flock, would it not?

SMcC It would. You could hardly have the one flock as we have it now without the Spirit, because, as we have been taught, this is the point where John’s ministry touches Paul’s. Paul speaks of the body, John speaks of the flock.

WSS Do we not see shepherd service outstandingly in Mr. Darby’s service?

SMcC Well, certainly we do. We would do well to emulate such. One was affected recently, when over in Ireland, as one thought of that beloved servant and the way he denied himself. We talk about the servants and how they labour today, but we do not labour much compared with how they laboured in that day, and they did not have the comforts that we have. Mr. Darby denied himself so that the true principle of Nazariteship was seen in him even externally, and how he laboured in relation to the poor of the flock.

WSS He laboured to bring the flock together. In Ezekiel 34 it speaks of a cloudy and dark day, in the chapter referring to the recovery of Israel to the mountains of Israel. I have often thought Mr. Darby’s service was very much in principle bringing the flock to light in a cloudy and dark day, so to speak.

SMcC I am sure there is something in that, because Mr. Darby’s ministry is in principle apostolic for the days of recovery.

AHn Would you say by extension the golden threads of that service have come right down to our day, as we can all say surely we have seen it in beloved J.T.?

SMcC Well, certainly there are those that followed. Some of us were at Quemerford the other night, and thinking about F.E.R. in the room in Quemerford (not that we want to go into history, but surely it should affect us the way our leaders have gone before) how he stood up in the midst of conflict, with persons openly contesting the truth; but in love for the flock, for the sheep, J.B.S. and F.E.R. laid down their lives, and beloved J.T. who followed. Shepherding involves leadership. It is an important thing that we should see that; sometimes we speak of shepherding as if it did not involve leadership, but shepherding involves leadership, that the shepherd goes before the sheep.

WSS Leading into the best pastures?

SMcC That is it - the best; the best for the saints, for the sheep.

AWGT Is it not important that in the Ephesians the gift of shepherding and teaching goes together, as if the Lord will not allow His sheep to be taught by anybody but by those that love them? How important that those that lead and have any moral influence at all amongst the saints, that they should lead, and that we should all be speaking the same thing and saying the same thing, so that the flock, the sheep, are not diverged in what may be said; they will not be diverged, as they are held in relation to the shepherd’s voice.

JSE Does this allusion to “my sheep” bear on what you were saying about the body of the saints this morning? There is a peculiar touch of responsiveness, is there not, to the voice of the Shepherd, in that the word flock here is not diminutive, as it is in Acts 20 and in Peter’s epistle,

where the word probably infers what was in a place, do you think?

SMcC It is important what you say, and it is a great help to any who have any part in serving the saints, not that any of us can speak of much, because after all it is very little, but in any part that any may have in serving the saints it is a great comfort to think of the flock, to think of the sheep who know Christ’s voice. You have an assurance that they will rally to the truth; the work of God in the saints will always rally to the truth.

MPS Does the passage that has been referred to in Ezekiel 34 show that princeliness is a feature of the Shepherd?

SMcC Yes, it is. That is amplified in the scripture that was alluded to in Ezekiel 34, “David a prince”, and princeliness is needed, those that can go before the sheep in affection for the sheep, not to impress them with their ability to administer or their ability to speak or to serve, but to impress the sheep with this great thought of divine affection - the love that went all the way to Calvary, measuring the depths of Calvary’s woe that the sheep might be secured.

FCH There is something to enjoy in the statement “on this account the Father loves me”. It is not just a statement of fact, is it, but that we should have some sense of His own enjoyment of the Father’s love?

SMcC Well, it is remarkable how knowledge comes in in that way. The Lord in John 17: 26, in speaking to the Father, desires “that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them”. That is the divine standard of love; here it is the divine standard of knowledge. In 1 Corinthians 13, in regard to the day to come, it says, “but then I shall know according as I also have been known”. That is alluding to the divine standard of knowledge that we shall arrive at eventually, but it is delightful to think of this standard of knowledge here, that the sheep know Christ, “as the Father knows me and I know the Father”.

PHH What is involved in this thought of life? It says, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”. There is first the voice and then the suggestion of leading and going out and finding pasture, and then He says, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”.

SMcC Do you not think it would stand over against the whole Jewish system into which moral death had entered? The Lord has come to lead the sheep into life, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”. That is peculiar to the saints of this dispensation, the peculiar touch as to life, and the enjoyment of life that the saints have in the assembly abundantly, no doubt alluding to life in its fulness.

AHG Would the knowledge of divine Persons that you have been stressing enter into this matter of life?

SMcC It does, because life according to John’s gospel - that is, life as a matter of enjoyment - lies in the knowledge of divine Persons. This is not life potentially; this is life as a sphere, a realm of enjoyment in the knowledge of divine Persons.

WC Later on He says, “I give them life eternal”; that is, in connection with preservation, is it not?

SMcC Very good. The way that He speaks in John 17 causes our attention to be focused on those that were given to Him out of this world; while He had been given authority over all flesh. He gives to them eternal life, as you say, “that as to all thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal”; and then the chapter begins to enlarge on those that have been given to Christ, indicating the peculiar way in which we come in for life - such a distinctive heavenly way in this dispensation. But we need to see the importance of the love side in this tenth chapter, the sacrificial side, the laying down of the life - all this is important in the system of divine affections, because if the saints are to be cared for rightly, and to be served rightly, it can only be in the spirit of Christ and in the grace of Christ as seen in this relation.

EJB Is that the reason why the word for ‘know’ in verses 14 and 15 is objective knowledge; it can be taken account of by what it does?

SMcC That is it. It is there objectively before us.

WC Will you say something about what the wolf means? You have it here, and Paul says grievous wolves would come in, not sparing the flock. Have we, if we seek to be shepherds, to have our eyes, as it were, on the enemy at the same time and his movements? The idea of the robber and the wolf would be how the enemy would rob God, would it not really?

SMcC A remarkable expression, is it not? In a gospel where the truth is so glorious, and especially in this chapter where He is speaking in accents so tender in regard of the sheep and His love for them, why should He use this expression ‘the wolf seizes them’? It is the ravaging side in relation to the flock, the violent side; a wolf has no conscience, it represents persons who have no conscience at all.

GAL And does not the end of Acts 5 indicate that about the time of our Lord there were such? Gamaliel refers to them.

SMcC Yes, exactly; in the secession you mean that they led.

GAL Yes, Theudas, for instance.

SMcC Yes.

AJG Have the activities of the wolf in view the scattering of the flock? He cannot hinder their being carried through eternally, but he would bring about present scattering so as to discredit the testimony to God which unity affords?

SMcC I am sure that is very important. The figures of speech employed here as to the alien influences that operate against the sheep are instructive. First “a thief and a robber” (verse 1). How that speaks to us! It is a reference to persons in responsibility who are thinking about themselves; they are not thinking about God, or about Christ, or about the saints - they are thinking about themselves. And then the wolf (verse 18) refers to the violent devouring element that seems to be bent on scattering the sheep, “seizes them and scatters the sheep”.

AWGT I wondered whether it had not rather a peculiar bearing on us here, since you referred to the historical side a few minutes ago. There was this kind of ravaging, and persons of this sort were used for a terrible attack a hundred years ago, and it centred in this city. Is that not something which should make us careful to lay hold of all the truth we have had brought before us, so that it may be in the body of the saints, as has been said, so that the enemy may not get in?

SMcC Well, exactly. Think of what obtained there: there were the thief and the robber and the wolf - the subtle specious way the enemy wrought through Newton in systematised error to steal the affections of the saints; the clerical principle in Plymouth; the displacement of the Spirit of God; the over-riding of the shepherd’s influence - all that speaks of the thief and the robber. And then what followed in the scattering of the sheep ought to help us to see the true character of Bethesda in all its terribleness.

PHH Whereas I suppose what happened in the next chapter (John 11) with Lazarus and Mary and Martha would show the Lord’s detailed care for them more inwardly; it was not exactly an external attack, to bring them over to the divine side whither the Lord was leading?

SMcC That is it.

PHH Love is prominent. “He whom thou lovest”. Would that follow on your mentioning of love?

SMcC It does, because it is not the flock that comes up in the 11th chapter but the family of God figuratively speaking, in the family at Bethany; the flock represents what the saints are as the objects of Christ’s love and care in that way. It does not stress so much the active side with them, or the side of personality, but in the family of God the side of personality is developed, individual personality; we do well to remember that, so that however much we have been merged through the baptism of the Spirit into the wonderful entity called the body of Christ, or merged together as the flock of Christ, we must never forget that on the side of family relationship personality is developed, each one in his own distinctiveness in his impression of God and Christ.

EJH Is that borne out by the word “Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus”?

SMcC Yes, it is; that is, each one comes up for honourable reference, so that every one of us has got a part, you see - we cannot rule anybody out in John 11. We might attempt to rule Martha out and the standard of knowledge she had, but the Lord is serving her, and He is bringing her in, so that they are all in their place in the 12th chapter, and all serving in relation to one another; it is not a question of what they are saying, it is what they are and what is being done.

TJG And also in that chapter 11 do we not see the triumph of shepherd love in putting into the mouth of the enemy that the children of God should be gathered together in one that were scattered abroad?

SMcC Well, that is a rather remarkable word of Caiaphas, and is a word to keep in mind. It comes into John’s gospel; it does not come into Matthew, or Mark or Luke. It is John that gives us that word, and we certainly should think of the children of God that are scattered abroad, and of how we can be a service to them in the true shepherd spirit of Christ.

CH Is it not often, too, a question of one dying for the nation, when crises arise in localities?

SMcC Well, it is, and in this matter of the saints coming to the knowledge of the truth the shepherd goes before the sheep, the sheep are not going to lead the shepherd. It is the shepherd that goes before the sheep and leads them. Leadership is important in divine things. The brethren of course will understand I am not speaking of leadership officially, I am speaking of the principle of it. Leadership is leadership; democracy is not according to God; government by the people and for the people is not according to the divine mind. The divine thought is leadership, and leadership involves that there is the going before, laying down our lives, serving the saints in the spirit and grace of Christ.

PHH Is it remarkable that in the family setting in John 11 this great thought of personality and individual lustre and glory should be alluded to?

SMcC Well, it is indeed, because we might refer to it as a kind of a transitional point; the Lord is about to enter upon the final setting of His teaching from the 13th chapter onward, in regard to the collective position and what divine Persons are to us in the collective position, but we get this wonderful view projected before our minds and hearts of the distinctiveness of the family of God. Each member, each individual one is mentioned, both together and severally, and what a help it would be to recognise that in our localities, do you not think?

PHH Yes, indeed; and I wondered whether it did not proceed into the spiritual and eternal sphere. One reference to the saints would be, as you were saying, the body, or the assembly; but there is the other side in sonship, is there not, where every person stands, you might say, in his own glory?

SMcC That is it, so eternity will be filled with the most wonderful persons, myriads of personalities, with distinctive impressions of Christ. We get great diversity, but unity in that diversity, in that it is a living state of things. Now in John 14 we should see primarily this thought of the knowledge of the Father, and then the knowledge of the Spirit, and then the knowledge of Christ in the Father’s affections, and we in His, and He in ours. This opens up a rich and refined realm of knowledge. The 14th chapter of John becomes more wonderful every time you read it, as to what is projected on to our view by the Lord in His service.

AHG Verse 1 says, “Let not your heart be troubled”. Would that be the outcome of the unifying of which you have been speaking?

SMcC That is it. It begins with that, and it ends with that; verse 27, “Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it fear”. “Let not your heart be troubled” is the first verse, and in between is this restful state contemplated in which the Lord serves in relation to the features of knowledge that are referred to.

CH Can you help us at this juncture as to the “believing also on me”? Is it now that they are to get further advance in the knowledge of this One who is leaving?

SMcC That is it. It contemplates the Lord as going away. Heretofore He had been with them and among them, so that there was no necessity for active faith in relation to Him; but now that He has gone to heaven, as this would contemplate, the necessity for faith comes in. He says, “ye believe on God, believe also on me”. That is, He is to become an object of faith to them. The Spirit is not quite in the same way an object of faith because He is with us and in us.

AHG Is it often perhaps because of the lack of this unity amongst the saints in love indicated in verse 1 that we do not get helped as we should do in relation to divine Persons?

SMcC Do you mean it is not hearts? It is “let not your heart be troubled”.

AHG Yes.

SMcC Yes, that is a significant reference to the way they would be bound together in affection, because John 14 brings up the wonderful binding ties of affection between the disciples and Christ, so much so that it must have affected the Lord’s heart as He said to them in verse 18, “I will not leave you orphans. I am coming to you”. Why did He use that word? He is describing the absolute desolateness of their hearts at the thought of losing this One to whom in love and affection they had become so bound in companionship with Him here.

AWGT Could you say why the Father’s house comes in just at this juncture?

SMcC Well, I think the Lord is assuring their hearts just as He would assure ours that if He is going on before, He is not going on without us; we are on His heart and in His thoughts, and He has gone there before us to prepare a place for us. It brings out the singular glory of the assembly amongst the many families, and the Father’s house would open upon our view a great range of things in relation to the many families, and many abodes, all of infinite nearness to God in this happy state of love, but then there is a special place for the assembly, “for I go to prepare you a place; and if I go and shall prepare you a place, I am coming again and shall receive you to myself, that where I am ye also may be”.

PHH Is it significant that He says “my Father’s house”?

SMcC It is, because it is alluding to His own relations with the Father, “in my Father’s house”. He does not say in the Father’s house, but “in my Father’s house”, particularly alluding to His own relations with the Father. Have you anything in mind in relation to it?

PHH I thought perhaps it magnified the service of the Lord’s sonship on our behalf: the Son of God, knowing the Father as His Father, and now He is proposing to serve the saints to this end, to prepare a special place with Him in His own presence, in His Father’s house?

SMcC That is it.

JSE Is not this a peculiar touch of glory with which we should be more acquainted? The Lord does not refer as much to what He is going to do for them here on earth as He does in the synoptic gospels, but here it is what He is going to do for them in another sphere altogether.

SMcC That is it, and He especially stresses in His reference to it the holy ties and links in love that will never be broken; if the sheep represent links with the Shepherd in holy love, John 14 brings them on to our view, if we might say, in a greater way; not in a more blessed way, for I suppose the love is the same, but in a more extended way.

NKM Is this essentially future, or can it be touched and reached in the Spirit’s power now?

SMcC You mean the Father’s house - “My Father’s house”?

NKM Yes, and the place that the Lord has prepared?

SMcC Well, it is specially alluding to what is future and what is linked with the day to come; but of course there is little that we cannot touch in the Spirit’s power here. What we have to do with is more the house of God in its provisional aspect at the present time.

AJG Would you say that in these words in this chapter the Lord is really introducing the Father to us and in a sense making Him attractive?

SMcC He is. He is introducing Him in a state of active love. I am sure that this matter of active love in this whole environment is important in relation to our knowledge of divine Persons. Do you not think so?

AJG Yes, I do. I was thinking of the way He introduces “my Father’s house” as though to impress them with the sense that the Father was the One who had the house, and ordered things there, and then later He says, “my Father will love him and we will come to him”, and so on.

SMcC This chapter is remarkable in that way for the manner in which divine Persons are brought so near to us; we are made to feel that we are not far from any one of Them. We are in the realm and environment of love, and the Lord, speaking reverently, is introducing the Father gradually. He says (verse 4), “And ye know where I go, and ye know the way. Thomas says to him, Lord, we know not where thou goest, and how can we know the way? Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me. If ye had known me, ye would have known also my Father, and henceforth ye know him and have seen him”. The Lord is stressing now His mediatorial position; the only way in which we can know the Father is in Christ, and by Christ, and through His service to us.

PHH Does that provide somewhat the answer to Mr. M.’s question? The Lord does not say that He is the way to the Father’s house, but the way to the Father. Is that what fills out the present time, leaving the Father’s house in its own eternal glory to the future?

SMcC It is, that is beautiful; it says of the Spirit that He is the truth, and it says of Him, as in the believer in Romans 8, that the Spirit is life, but it never says the Spirit is the way. The way is exclusive to Christ, the mediator between God and men - one, the man Christ Jesus.

GAL There are remarkable depths as to the feelings of the blessed Lord opened in this chapter, are there not? I was thinking of verse 10, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?” and again later on, “if ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father”.

SMcC You feel that affection is accentuated in this chapter in the way that the Lord propounds questions to the disciples. It is not that He is wanting to bring out their ignorance - that is not the point at all; He is seeking to bring them into this active operative state of love where divine Persons are known. He was in it Himself, how He lived in the Father, and how the Father was seen in Him. What a perfect state of love was there.

WSS So you would say that if we are to come into it we must come into it in our affections?

SMcC Well, we must, and it is important that we should know the Father as John presents Him; we have to note, as Mr. Darby in his letter to Mr. Stoney pointed out many years ago, the difference between Paul’s presentation of the Father and John’s presentation of the Father. In Paul invariably it is linked with our state and relationship, and our enjoyment of the relationship; John presents the Father as to what He is personally; His Person is presented to us in John’s ministry, and we have all humbly to admit that when it comes to the Person of the Father we have a lot to learn.

APB Would you help us as to the difference between what the Lord enjoyed of the Father’s company when He was here, and the thought of “going to the Father” as something additional to that?

SMcC Well, I think it is wonderful that the Spirit helps us to see the glorious state of things in heaven and that man is there - “Oh the sight in heaven is glorious, Man in righteousness is there”. Man is there with God in that setting. It is a wonderful thing to think of it, and to take account of the glorious state of manhood in Christ in heaven, that He is there as man with the Father.

APB I have wondered whether our present knowledge of the Father personally does not depend both on Christ having gone to the Father in the way you are saying, and on the Spirit having come from the Father.

SMcC Well, it does; that is how we come into it. Think of the ten days preceding the Spirit coming from Christ. What a scene of holy converse! Not that we would conjecture - far be the thought - but what holy communication and communion must have obtained in the ten days after our Lord ascended and before the Spirit descended! And then the Spirit coming and forming the assembly, and bringing into the bosom of the assembly all the refinement of the knowledge linked with that position, and the wealth and the warmth of the love linked with that position in heaven where Christ is as man with the Father.

CWO'LM Is that not involved in the statement “whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak”?

SMcC That is it; that would be what is in mind. He brings back a report of what is there, and how it affects your soul, the glory of the Spirit’s presence - the most wonderful thing on earth, as J.T. said recently, the Spirit’s presence in the assembly, the greatest Friend that we have on earth.

WMB Would you give us some help about the difference between verse 11 and verse 20? Does it show the added knowledge that comes with the Spirit, the first being a question of faith?

SMcC In verse 11 He says, “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; but if not, believe me for the works’ sake themselves”. You notice that He is referring to the operating side, where the works are coming out. He says in verse 10, “the Father who abides in me, he does the works”. It is linked with the works, but when we come to verse 20 “in that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”. It is more the inward side of love and affection; not that verse 11 does not involve love, but more the public operative side in relation to the works.

WMB I wondered if the reference to “in that day” stressed the Spirit’s day, the presence of the Comforter - is that what you had in mind?

SMcC Yes, exactly, because the last part of the verse, “and ye in me and I in you”, could not be apart from the Spirit, so that “in that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you” is possible because of the Spirit.

AJG And in verse 11 “believe me”, emphatic me, “that I am in the Father and the Father in me”, does not that involve the truth as to the Person of Christ - His part in Deity, and is not that all carried forward into verse 20 now that the Spirit has come, “ye shall know that I am in my Father”, that involves the place of affection as you say, but the truth of verse 11 is all carried forward into that, is it not?

SMcC It is. The blessedness of all that was here in holy manhood in Christ in sonship is all carried into the position on high. He laid down the condition, that is one thing that we have to keep in mind. He came into a condition which has been laid down never to be resumed again, for He has taken His life in a new condition, but all the excellence of manhood that was there in the condition that was laid down is carried forward into the position on high.

JSE Is this chapter what we might call a chapter of credits put to the body of the saints? The Lord refers to the term ‘ye’ invariably, and yet one or two brothers bring up their questions, and the Lord takes advantage of them to put further credits to the body of the persons who were there with Him.

SMcC Yes, just so. He is moving in relation to the disciples in such an affectionate and appealing way, recognising what they were as given to Him of the Father, and the wonderful fruits of His own service with them; because there is a wonderful tribute to the service of Christ in the twelve, and I think it is coming out here in their questions, while there was a measure of ignorance there with them. It is not to their discredit exactly; the Lord is bringing out more through it.

GAL So that the Lord is coming to the climax of His great service in this chapter. He is bringing out the fulness of the Christian position, as you say, in verse 20?

SMcC He is. Life as we have it in John 14 is the highest aspect of life in the gospel. He says, “yet a little while and the world sees me no longer; but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”. I understand that to be the acme of things in Christianity.

JSE And still bearing on the ‘ye’.

SMcC Still bearing on the ‘ye’, the dignity of the Christian company that is set out in nucleus in the twelve.

PHH Tell us something about this life. Did you say it is the highest?

SMcC Well, it is life in relation to our links with Christ in glory. It is not the appropriation of Christ down here; it is the appropriation of Christ up there. By the Spirit I am linked with Christ in glory, and as maintained in holy contact in intimacy with Him I am in life. Because He lives I live.

GAL So we are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. It is “in Christ Jesus” I was thinking.

SMcC The position of them, you mean - yes.

AHn Does the enjoyment of that depend upon verses 15 and 21, “he that loves me”? I was wondering if you would say a word about that.

SMcC Yes, I think it is important, but I should be glad if we could have a word on the Father and the making known of the Father before we touch on that. I think it is important that we should see the matter of the Father as John presents Him, and our knowledge of the Father, because the Father is a glorious Person in John’s ministry; the Lord is too, and the Spirit, but the Lord is intensifying the thought of the Father in this section of John’s gospel. He wants us to know the Father; He wants us to understand the Father.

HFR Is that with a view to our becoming worshippers of the Father? According to His word in the fourth chapter?

SMcC Well, it is, and with a view to our being worshippers of God. We shall never worship God rightly unless we are fully and firmly instructed in regard to the knowledge of the Father.

EJB What is going to help us in developing in the knowledge of the Father?

SMcC Coming under the hand of Christ and the Spirit, because after all the Spirit is here to help us in the way of power to apprehend the truth.

WSS Do you not think that the Spirit would help us to see in John’s gospel the deep desires of the Lord that we should know the Father? It is wonderful how the feelings of Christ seem to shine out in the desire that we should know the Father.

SMcC Well, it is, because “the Father” implies sonship in relation to Christ, and sonship implies an active state of love. We have in the 13th chapter, the Lord “came out from God and was going to God”; the primary thought is God and the final thought is God, but in between there is the marvellous dip in which the mediatorial economy is before us. God is seen in the Father in that relation to impress us with the love and grace of His heart; sonship too appearing in that relation to impress us with divine love. God is love, and this is the way that we come to know God in Himself; and He desires to be known in Himself in so far as we can know Him, so that the relation of Father and the name “Father” directly bears upon our knowledge of God in this primary and final way.

FCH Would you say a little as to the end of verse 28 in that connection, “if ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I”?

SMcC Well, there is the grace of the economy, this wonderful system of divine affections devised by divine love that we should know God who is love; we are going to be with that God through all eternity, and we are going to be with Him as having learned Him, and having been taught in relation to Him, through this wonderful divine arrangement in the mediatorial economy, the Father, the Son and the Spirit, and the Lord is saying, “if ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I”. That is, it is the opening up of the heavenly realm.

AB Would love for Christ bring in the Father’s affections for that one? I was thinking particularly of verse 21, “but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father”, and then again of the further thought in verse 23, “if any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him”.

SMcC I am not getting your thought; say something more, please.

AB I was asking whether such become known to the Father particularly; that is, those that love Christ and keep His commandments and keep His word, and whether such persons are particularly lovable to the Father?

SMcC Well, they are; that is a great encouragement to our hearts, and especially to the younger brethren to see how they come under divine attention as loving. God delights to take account of the lovers of Christ in this way. We should finish with a word as to the Spirit. It says in verse 16, “and I will beg the Father and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him” - the emphatic ‘ye’ again - “ye know him, for he abides with you and shall be in you”. I am sure it is important that we should more and more know the Spirit in the way in which the Lord is alluding to Him in this section, because the only liberty we have, and the only joy we have in the realm of the knowledge of divine Persons is what is afforded us by this Person.

AJG This is objective knowledge, is it “Ye know him” referring to the Spirit? This chapter really gives us an objective presentation of the Father and the Son and the Spirit, does it not?

SMcC Very instructive.

PHH If we can take account of the Spirit objectively, it certainly releases us to speak to Him.

SMcC Yes, quite so, it does, and why should we not speak to Him? To say that we cannot speak to Him is an implication that He is not God.

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