THE KNOWLEDGE OF DIVINE PERSONS AND THINGS, READING (5)
THE KNOWLEDGE OF DIVINE PERSONS AND THINGS, READING (5)
SMcC It is felt that these two passages that we have read should complete our enquiry in relation to the subject that has been before us in this gospel as to the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things. The verses in John 20 were read because they are involved in what the Lord says in verse 26 of this 17th chapter, “and I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known”. There are one or two references to the thought of the knowledge of divine Persons in this wonderful chapter, and it has been referred to as the greatest chapter in the apostolic section of the Scriptures. It is a chapter that is different from all the others; a certain uniqueness attaches to it in that we are not exactly in the presence of ministry in this chapter, but in the presence of the speaking of one divine Person to another. As we were saying, we are not in the presence exactly of the Lord teaching in ministry in this chapter, but we are privileged to be as it were in the presence of His speaking to the Father, one divine Person speaking to another - on the one hand in the light of His own equality with the Father, on the other as in the subject dependent place out of which He never took Himself as having come into it; and even in this chapter, while His equality is asserted, He takes the place of receiving things from the Father. And it is thought that we should see first what is referred to in “and this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. The knowledge of God is linked with eternal life; and then towards the end the knowledge of God is linked with the family side. Eternal life is not so much linked with the family side; eternal life is more linked with God and men. So that we should consider first what is referred to in this matter, “that they should know thee”, “this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. And then the wonderful expressed desires on the part of the Son to the Father as to unity. There are three great references to unity in this chapter: first in relation to the apostles themselves, the apostolic unity, then in relation to those that believed through their word, and then the thought of unity in glory linked with sonship. There are other things that may come in, but these are salient features that we should keep before us in what we are about to consider. The fact that we are in a priestly atmosphere here in itself has its own word for us.
JAP Why do you say that, a priestly atmosphere?
SMcC The Son is speaking to the Father; we are in a priestly realm, our minds are impregnated through His utterances with the thought of holiness as He recognises what the Father has given to Him out of the world, and expresses His holy desire that they should be kept from the evil that is in the world. The Lord is priestly in His attitude here, and the whole chapter is filled with priestly utterances in so lofty and exalted a subject as the chapter contemplates.
PHH Is the thought of eternal life somewhat selective here? It says first, “thou hast given him authority over all flesh”; then, “as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal”.
SMcC Yes, it is; it is drawn attention to in regard to the position that the Lord has, as given authority over all flesh, which would look on to the millennial world and the millennial day; but our thoughts are particularly concentrated on the disciples and on those that should believe on Him through their word as particularly selected, marked out in relation to this great blessing, this wondrous blessing, not so great as sonship. Eternal life is not so great as sonship, but it is a wondrous blessing, one of the greatest blessings that we possess. We have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, and eternal life is one of them.
JEB Is it to be noted that the thought of giving occurs a great number of times in this chapter, seventeen times. It is a very precious thought in connection with the Father, is it not?
SMcC Yes. I think it is very important, because we might say, reverently speaking, in a certain way that we are in the presence of divine love unhindered here. We have the flow of divine affections that the economy was specially devised to impress our minds with - the giving being part of that - it is the great expression of God in His nature - God is love, and the giving is a great expression of God in His nature in that way.
FPB Does the only true God cover that?
SMcC Yes. The Lord says, “And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. It is remarkable how He refers to Himself in this way, “and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. That kind of man, that order of man, would be particularly stressed - eternal life linked with God and man in that way.
TJG Does the emphasis being on eternal in that verse suggest that the knowledge of “the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent” is not the acquisition of a mere point of knowledge, but an eternal matter that becomes an integral part of the believer?
SMcC Yes, the word eternal, of course, in “eternal life” should be contrasted with a scene of death, where man’s life has been shortened; we know that in the early chapters of Genesis great longevity marked man’s life,
but that has been shortened, and tremendous difficulties and pressures have come in through sin in relation to the shortening of man’s life, and eternal life is the great answer to that, in the very scene where sin has brought in such disaster. Eternal life of course is referring to an out-of-the-world condition of things.
JSE As you remarked earlier, eternal life is not so great as sonship?
SMcC No, it is not. It is important that we should see that, wondrous as eternal life is, it is not on the same plane as sonship; sonship is the highest blessing for man. We do not reach anything higher than sonship in the way of blessing, and it is linked with the family thought, whereas eternal life is not - it is God and men.
JSE Yes. Why I asked my question is because you were emphasising eternal life coming into evidence and enjoyment where sin was, but sonship belongs to what is outside of that, does it not?
SMcC Very good. Sonship is particularly heavenly, although eternal life as we have it is on the heavenly line too, in contrast to the millennial day, where it will be particularly seen in relation to the earth, and the earthly order of things. Eternal life as we have it in the assembly is on the heavenly line, but its bearing is on the condition of things here.
AJG So that has it specially in view our position here in testimony? I mean, has it in view that a heavenly colour and power are given to the position in testimony?
SMcC Yes, exactly, so that there is a testimony in life in the saints through their enjoyment of it in the sphere of life as it is contemplated in this great thought of eternal life. Eternal life underlies the whole position here. It underlies all the meetings, underlies the service of God. Properly speaking it is a land thought; it belongs to the land, but it underlies the whole position of testimony as you referred to it here.
NKM Is it connected particularly with promise, and sonship with purpose?
SMcC It is. Sonship was in the mind of God before the world was, but eternal life comes in after sin was introduced and bears upon the introduction of sin in the world; it is on the line of promise to meet what has come in through sin in the shortening of the span of life, the pressure of death upon our spirits; eternal life is God’s great provision to meet that kind of thing.
EJH Is “lifting up the eyes to heaven” connected with what you are speaking of as to the influence of heaven on the whole position?
SMcC Yes. This whole chapter is to draw us into the environment of heaven although we are still on earth. One of the things that is so affecting in this chapter is the way the Lord speaks, as if the geographical setting did not exist. He says, “and now I come to thee” - a remarkable statement on His part as to His going to the Father. This whole section from John 13 to this chapter is filled with the thought of His going to the Father, which of course involves the cross, and the grave and His rising again, and ascension; but the Lord speaks of it as if He would draw us into the immediate environment of it and into heaven in that way.
WSS And the Lord’s joy in going to the Father?
SMcC Yes. He would draw us into His restfulness, His peace, His joy in the position that He was in; we are left with all the richness of that legacy.
PHH Is the contrasting thought of eternal life somewhat confirmed in the expression “the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”? The only true God?
SMcC Yes. It would stand against what is false, do you think? It has a relative bearing on what would be around in regard to the multiplicity of gods, “there are gods many and lords many”, so that we have an economical reference here in the statement “this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. It is an economical reference; the divine arrangement is in mind, in the only true God as seen in the Father, and Jesus Christ the sent One.
PHH But if I understood your earlier remark, it does not really take us into any family relationship such as is contemplated in “my Father and your Father”.
SMcC No, it does not; that is not the side of the truth that comes in in connection with eternal life, so that eternal life is presented in the gospel to men. “For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have life eternal.” The great thought is men, and the bringing of them into eternal life. As Mr. Darby says, “The sense would thus be that He has loved men in view of eternal life, ‘so that’ He has given”
FWK In the epistle to Titus eternal life is connected with the knowledge of the Saviour God and becomes the subject of testimony?
SMcC Yes, it does.
JAP How do you connect what you are saying with “God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son” - in the epistle?
SMcC The thought in 1 John 5 is to draw our attention to the position of it, where it is positionally, and life in its entirety is positionally in the Son. The believer has it of course; as John presents the truth the saints have it, but in its entirety John presents it positionally in that exalted position; not in heaven exactly, but in the Son, a wonderful reference to the dignity and glory of its position, so that it would involve divine affections, while eternal life does not involve the family side so much as God and men, yet it involves divine affections, so that the testimony to the eternal life came out in the Lord Jesus in His living relations with the Father.
WMcK You remarked yesterday, in regard to chapter 14 when the Lord Jesus says “because I live ye also shall live”, that that was the highest thought of life. Does that connect with what you are saying now?
SMcC There we have the thought of life in an operative way. Eternal life is not exactly life in an operative way, but points to a sphere of life that is linked with the knowledge of divine Persons. In John 14 the verse you allude to brings life before us and conveys, as you say, the highest presentation of life in John’s gospel on the operative side - I mean operative in the sense that it affects us. We live because He lives, but eternal life is another thought.
HAH Are not family conditions on our side as brethren necessary for the enjoyment of it.
SMcC Yes. It involves a sphere - “Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity”. Then, as the Psalm (Psalm 133) goes on, “there Jehovah commanded the blessing”. That is, it is linked with these conditions so that properly and rightly speaking it is a blessing that is linked with the land, the heavenly side.
HFR John 12 has often been used as an illustration of it. It is a family setting there?
SMcC Yes. We see how the pressure of death was lifted off their spirits as they were together in relation to one another and in relation to Christ, so that movements in honouring Christ were unimpeded.
AJG The family setting would give the heavenly out-of-the-world character to it, would it, but the basic character of it is the knowledge of the true God and of Jesus Christ whom He has sent?
SMcC That is it. It involves an out-of-the-world condition and relationship and being; it involves a system of relationship, and that is what gives character to it in a heavenly way.
PHH Does that mean that eternal life has a kind of dual application? On the one hand it will be known outwardly in the millennium, but at the present time it is known spiritually and more inwardly in the assembly?
SMcC That is it. No family will know eternal life and enjoy eternal life as the assembly enjoys it; that is one of the things that shows us the importance of the Spirit as He is known in this dispensation. There are blessings which other families may touch in some measure, but with them it does not reach into the exquisiteness and blessedness of what is touched in the assembly, because eternal life in the assembly is enjoyed on the upward and heavenly line.
HLT Would you say another word as to the second and the third verses? In the second it is ‘life eternal’ and in the third ‘eternal life’.
SMcC I do not know that I can say much about it. The one is stressing the life with the adjective after it, the other the adjective is before it. The one is stressing the thing itself, but the other is stressing the character of it; “this is the eternal life”, we are to notice that. I think the Lord is focusing our thoughts on the uniqueness of eternal life as we are to enjoy it, so that He does not say “and this is eternal life”. He says “and this is the eternal life”. I think it is particularly stressing it in relation to the family; this chapter contemplates the uniqueness of eternal life as it is known in the assembly which is the eternal life.
AJG Has it not been said that the knowledge of the only true God delivers us from idolatry and the knowledge of Jesus Christ, His sent one, delivers us from lawlessness? And can you not see, the more you think of that, how essential that is if we are to be maintained in testimony here in the presence of all that is corrupt, and on the other hand if we are to be maintained in the service of God?
SMcC I think that is very good, and it helps us as to the importance of eternal life as bearing on our public position in testimony and as bearing on the inward position in the service of God, because it is a living state of things that we have to do with, over against the dead state of things all around. The enjoyment of eternal life bears upon that. It is very striking that the first formal reference to the economy in this gospel is John 3 at the end, verse 28, “the Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hands”; and then the 4th chapter immediately brings up the living water, that is the Spirit, and eternal life, in view of two great prime matters in the dispensation evangelical testimony and the worship of God in an inward way. The Spirit and eternal life bear directly on these matters as to living conditions in them, and power in them, and the first feature of the administration of the economy brings that out.
WSS And in regard of what you said about the service of God following eternal life, eternal life is brought in in the 133rd Psalm, and we have the service of God in the next psalm, have we not - “lift up your hands in the sanctuary and bless Jehovah” (Psalm 134: 3)?
SMcC Very good, and it is important that we should see the bearing of eternal life in relation to the service of God, because it preserves us from holding the truth merely in terms; it preserves us from mere theology, in relation to the truth, because in the assembly we have a living state of things.
AHn Does the food in chapter 6 afford substance in this great matter of life and the service of God?
SMcC Yes, it does. It brings in what is to help us constitutionally because we need help in our constitutions, and the food would bear upon that; it contemplates on the negative side the ending of one order of things, but on the positive side the opening up of another order of things, morally and spiritually outside of the world.
PHH Why does the Lord immediately go on to the request for His being glorified? It seems perhaps somewhat abrupt, but He speaks of having glorified God on the earth, and “now glorify me, thou Father”, and so on, leading on to what is inscrutable. What is the setting of that in relation to what we are saying?
SMcC I think He is coming on to what is to impress our minds and hearts in a distinctive way in regard to the glory of divine Persons. Their relations with one another, because it would seem as if in this chapter the standard is set out in the relations of divine Persons with one another. The standard as to unity, the standard as to perfect love, is set out in the relations between the Father and the Son, and the Spirit too, because the Father and the Son are one in the unity of the Spirit, and that is what is to affect the saints, because it is the presence of the Spirit that makes things real with us, especially as to this matter of unity.
JSE Is this abruptness to which Mr. H. refers to impress us with the fact that, having settled the matter of eternal life, the Lord refers to something greater, is that right?
SMcC Our minds and our attention are drawn to divine greatness and the holy unjealous relations between divine Persons in love. What a pattern is set out in the holy references of Christ here as to the Father’s relations with Him and His relations with the Father! What a pattern is set out for us as to conditions among the saints! He says, “I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it; and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was”. He was co-equal, co-eternal with the Father, and His rights in equality are asserted in this gospel; but the glory that was rightly His with the Father before the world was. He would not take it without asking the Father, showing the remarkable relations that are intended to affect us; the great object of the economy is to affect us by what appears in testimony in it.
AJG So that really God meets all the conditions that have come in through sin by coming into testimony Himself?
SMcC That is it; and I think we need to see the economy from this viewpoint, that it is a divinely devised system of affections in which we are to know God. God is love - that is His nature, love; that is absolute. God is love, but in the realm of inscrutable deity how could we know it? We could not with creature mind and understanding enter there to know it, understand it and enjoy it, but God has devised, divine love has devised in the economy a system of affections in the Father and the Son and the Spirit in which we are to know God in that economy.
PJB Was eternal life essential as far as we are concerned if we were to have any understanding in relation to these wondrous relationships?
SMcC I think eternal life is important as basic to our enjoyment of divine Persons because Christianity involves life, whether life operatively as has been referred to in John 14, or whether life as viewed in the sphere of it, contemplated in what we are referring to as eternal life here.
FRH There is a verse in John’s first epistle, chapter 4, verse 9, “herein as to us has been manifested the love of God”, and the note to that is interesting, “The idea of the love of God remains absolute: only it has been shown ‘as respects us in this’”.
SMcC Yes, we know it relatively. One of the supreme expressions of it is that Christ has laid down His life; that is one of the most wonderful expressions of divine love relatively.
HAH Is it significant that in the other reference to what was before the world the Lord in the 24th verse brings in the love between Him and the Father relative to His request that we should be with Him to behold His glory? I was thinking of the distinction between the 5th and the 24th verses - the two references to what existed before the foundation of the world.
SMcC Well, in the 24th verse, of course, we are brought into the beholding of the glory, but not in the 5th verse; we could never behold the glory that is contemplated there.
HAH I was thinking of the significance of love being brought in in verse 24.
SMcC Yes, “that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”.
HAH I thought it was very significant that such a love was brought in in relation to such a request as to ourselves.
SMcC Yes. Well, we are impressed with this matter of love, as the chapter ends. The Lord is filling our minds with thoughts as to divine love, what is special to Himself, what we come into; and as the chapter proceeds He refers to the love “with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them”. That would be the thought of family love in relation to Christ in manhood - sonship. “Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” is another thought in regard to love.
I think we should be impressed with this matter of the Lord not taking Himself out of the dependent position into which He had come. There is a great lesson for us in it. While He is speaking of what we cannot enter upon, the glory of the form of God, which we know nothing about, except that unapproachable light is linked with it, and love is linked with it, and glory is linked with it, we are to be impressed with how He would not take Himself out of the dependent place even here. The enemy tried to take Him out of it, but even here He does not say, as we have perhaps often noted, “and now I glory myself”. He says, “And now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself” (that brings us back to what we have in the 1st chapter of John, verse 1, “the Word was with God”), “with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was”. It is recorded through John the evangelist that we might be impressed with it in some measure although we cannot enter upon what is involved in it, yet it is brought into our thoughts in some way to impress us with the greatness of divine Persons.
HFR Are the emphatic pronouns there, the personal pronouns, very important? In the earlier verse he says, “glorify thy son”, but now he says, “glorify me, thou Father”.
SMcC Yes, He has come back to what is personal. The first three verses are almost indirect in certain ways, but then as we go on from verse 4 the Lord comes to speak about Himself in His relations with the Father, and what enters into those relations seen so wondrously in the economy.
AB And would this move us in worship to the Son, the sense that He has a personal glory, as along with the Father - and co-equal with Him?
SMcC Well, it does, and it helps us to see His equality with the Father, His place in Deity. It says in verse 3, “the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”; the true God has reference to the Father. But then we have to bear in mind, even in thinking of that, that the Lord Jesus is said to be the true God too. Surely the statements do not conflict, and it is for faith, and for minds and hearts taught by the Spirit, to understand what is in mind, that we are to be impressed with the fact that not only the Father is God, but the Lord Jesus, the Son, is God, and the Spirit is God. “He is the true God and eternal life.” So we are reminded of His deity in verse 5.
AJG Do you think that verse 5 throws its lustre back on verse 4 - that such an One as is speaking in verse 5 had been here in testimony as glorifying God - glorifying the Father, not seeking His own glory, and He had completed the work? Is that to have an effect upon us as here in the position of testimony?
SMcC Well, it is, I am sure, and it is very affecting to be in the presence of the Lord speaking to the Father in this way as to His having glorified Him on the earth - “I have glorified thee on the earth” - a wonderful reference. The earth, you see, refers to what is creational; the earth had been created by God, and He says “I have glorified thee on the earth”, but then He brings in the moral and spiritual universe in what He says following, “I have completed the work which thou gavest me”; that is not creational exactly - it alludes to the wonderful work linked with God coming into the mediatorial economy in the way He has done to liberate men that they might know Him in the blessedness of His being, as He desired to be known in so far as He can be known according as He has revealed Himself in Christ.
JSE Is it to affect us that it is reserved to the Son, in what He says to the Father personally, to put the most glorious impress of the Father’s supremacy upon the economy?
SMcC Well, it is. I am sure we want to see the weight of the Lord’s words in speaking in this way, and especially this matter as to testimony, “I have glorified thee on the earth”. Why should the Lord say “on the earth”? The creational side is in mind, and we have to do with what is created. We know what sin has done in the theatre that comes under our eye in created things - how sin has come in and deranged what is linked with that order of things viewed creationally here. But the Lord says, “I have glorified thee on the earth”, and that is to bear upon us; the apprehension of it is to bear upon us as we touch and have to do with the creational side.
WBH Is it in striking contrast to that word in Genesis, “and Jehovah repented that he had made man on the earth; it grieved him in his heart”?
SMcC That is it. So we have the true God in verse 3 and true manhood in Jesus Christ, and what a contrast to what came in by the first man, “I have glorified thee on the earth”.
JH It says in Psalm 65 that “thou hast visited the earth, thou hast watered it; thou greatly enrichest it: the river of God is full of water”.
SMcC So it is an important thing that we should see the earth abstractly, and learn to think of it abstractly, and see what is in the divine mind in relation to it. What a touch the Lord gives to the created side here, “I have glorified thee on the earth”. The very place where idolatry had come in, where lawlessness had reared its head, the Lord said, “I have glorified thee on the earth”.
WSS Verse 4 would embrace the two great thoughts of creation and redemption, so much brought together in Scripture.
SMcC Well, it does, and the “glorified thee on the earth” and the completing the work “which thou gavest me” involves redemption, and it involves the cross.
WSS And it is the basis of all that is to be brought in for the glory of God.
SMcC That is it.
AHn Do you link this in your mind with what Paul says in Philippians when he is referring to the mind that was in Christ Jesus and inviting us to let it be in us?
SMcC I think that is the bearing of it testimonially on us here, that we are to be affected by what is seen in the Lord Jesus in this wonderful divine arrangement how He glorified the Father, as He speaks of Him in this way, glorified God in the way in which He did it; we see the true relations between God and men in this Person in manhood in the economy.
EJH And would you say that true manhood as patterned after Christ is seen in what the Lord Jesus says to Peter at the end of the gospel, “signifying by what death he should glorify God”?
SMcC It shows how the thought of glorifying God is to appear in the saints even in the way they die.
Now the time is pretty well gone and we should come on to the other features of our subject. We should look at the latter part of the chapter as to the making known of the name. It says earlier, “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world” (verse 6). There is a manifestation of the name which is linked with the whole testimonial position there at the beginning, but when we come to the end it is “and I have made known to them thy name and will make it known”. As we have been taught, the manifestation side bears on the testimonial position, but the making known is a deeper inward thought coming into this setting in a peculiar way, and coming into John 20 in a peculiar way. “I have made known to them thy name and will make it known.”
PJB Is that the name He took in coming into the economy?
SMcC I think it is the name of God that is involved in this. “I have made known unto them thy name” no doubt would bear on the way He had taught them in regard to the Father; He had come in the Father’s name, and He says in verse 11, “I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we. When I was with them I kept them in thy name”. He made known to them the Father in His service and ministry, but then He says “and will make it known”, which involves John 20, as He says to Mary, “Go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God”. That is, we have something further: the completing of this making known of the name.
WSS There is a passage in Psalm 48 which seems to bear on this: “According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise.”
SMcC Well, that bears on what enters into the worship of God. Every family is formed according to the particular light in which God is made known to it, and so the assembly is formed according to the particular light that enters into our dispensation in regard to God.
JSE When you spoke of “making known thy name” did you mean that the first allusion “I have made known” was economical and the second was final?
SMcC Well, “I have made known to them thy name” is historical. It is alluding to the service of Christ to the disciples, “I have made known to them thy name”, but then it says “and will make it known”. That brings in John 20, which is final; that is, it completes the knowledge of the Name (John 20).
PHH Involved in the message to Mary, do you mean?
SMcC Yes, exactly. “My Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
PHH There is no sense in which the Lord makes known His name to us in assembly service now, is there?
SMcC No. John 20 is final. The matter is complete and final in that relation.
WJB So that the reference in Hebrews 2 to “I will declare thy name unto my brethren” - that has been done, has it?
SMcC It bears on what the Lord did on the morning of the resurrection, the first day of the week (John 20), it bears upon that.
JAP “My Father and your Father, my God and your God.” They are the same Person, are They not? I mean They are spoken of as one, and yet would there be something in the name of God that is greater and wider?
SMcC Well, we would like to understand what you have in mind in saying it is the same Person.
JAP Well, it is His Father and His God; but as to “His God”, I suppose when you come to the Being of God you cannot be definitive in your mind, can you?
SMcC I think I see what is in your mind - that the Father is before us in John 20, “My Father and your Father”. How blessed that name is. But then there is the fuller name: God; whereas the Father particularly applies to that Person, God as seen and known in that Person as revealed - “My Father and your Father”. But then, the name of Father does not cover the Three Persons. While God is presented in the economy in the Father, the name of Father does not cover the full thought of the Deity; the Deity is presented in the Father, in the economy, but the name of Father does not cover the full thought of Deity; but the name of God is the appellation which covers the complete thought of Deity, the expression that the Spirit of God uses to bring to our minds the thought of the Deity, because in God it is the Deity that is in mind, it is the name and the appellation which covers the full thought of the Deity; not that we are saying that the full thought of Deity is not presented in the Father personally in the economy - “to us there is one God, the Father”. Deity is presented in the Father in the economy, but then the name Father is a name of special relationship and in itself is limited; because the God who has come into that relationship must necessarily be greater than the relationship He has come into, and “my God and your God”
involves that Being, the Supreme Being, and is the name involving all three Persons; Father. Son and Holy Spirit - that covers the full thought as to the Deity.
JAP So when you use the name “God” you do not limit it in any way, unless it is specifically referred to the Father. You have in mind that the Father is God, the Lord Jesus is God, and the Spirit is God.
SMcC Exactly, because “God” when it is presented without qualification in the word generally would involve God, the Supreme Being - “in the beginning God”, that is, the Supreme Being, the Being to be worshipped; and what is necessary to make clear at this point is that what some are suggesting, that this thought of worshipping God as God involves a position beyond relationship, has never been suggested. It has never been in anyone’s mind that worshipping God as God takes us outside of relationship; God has come into the relation of Father, that we might know Him in His nature - what He is, because “Father” implies sonship - involves sonship in Christ, “the Father” and “the Son”. These are relations that are intended to help us as to the apprehension of the Being that has come within our range in the economy; that is referred to in that appellation “my God and your God”.
JAP I think that greatly helps.
WMB Do you distinguish this at all from Ephesians 1, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”? Would you distinguish the two in any way?
SMcC Well, I would in the sense that there is a particular reference to the family side in Ephesians 1, to the side of relationship. The family relationship is essential, and we never go outside of it in having to do with God; the family relationship was designed so that we should be in nearness to God. It is obvious that in “my Father and your Father” there is an intimacy that could not quite be in “my God and your God”, because God is God, and never ceases to be any less than God - infinite in power and in majesty; but the relationship is brought in that we might know Him in nearness, and we never go outside of that relationship.
ACSP Are we to carry into this thought of God as you are now speaking of it the distinctive glories of each of the Persons as they have come out in the economy?
SMcC Well, the Being that we are speaking of under that appellation “my God and your God” is the Being that is known in the economy in the Father and the Son and the Spirit. They are distinguished for us in Their operations and actings in the economy. We have to keep that in mind, that it is in coming out and in Their operations and actings that They are distinguished for us; and while John says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”, it is not that He is carrying that appellation back into Deity, but he is referring to the Person who was known in testimony as the Word and to His eternal position in Deity. His eternal equality with the Father and with the Spirit too, “the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.
PHH Do you think it helps to understand that God coming out has expressed Himself in Father, Son and Spirit, but in the return line which the Lord is suggesting here He just says “and to my God and your God”? Does that give us liberty, therefore, just to speak to God Himself? If we go on and express the name “Father, Son and Spirit”, we are returning for a moment to the coming-out side, are we, whereas is the whole thing gathered up in our liberty at the end to speak to God Himself?
SMcC It is, but the approach is equal to the revelation, so that the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit would have its place in approach to Him.
JSE Does that settle the correctness of the order of the verses in Number 8 in the hymn-book?
SMcC I do not understand the difficulty that exists in some minds as to it. Certainly beloved Mr. Taylor never had any difficulty, he sang it heartily. And there is no difficulty that I know of in America about it, or in Australia, or New Zealand, as to that hymn. Do you know of any difficulty as to that hymn, some that are not free to sing it?
WJB No, we have no difficulty at all.
PHH I would not like to say that we may not refer to the Father, Son and Spirit when we are speaking to God, but does not the Scripture encourage us at the end at the highest point of the service just to speak to God, without necessarily particularising each time by saying “Father, Son and Spirit”?
SMcC We had it this morning. It does not necessarily mean that you always have to refer to each of the Persons, because God is God. He is that Being, and we may refer to Each of the Persons as we know Them in the economy as hymn Number 8 refers to them, that is quite in keeping; but we may refer to God as God; the Lord Jesus says “my God”. He is speaking as man, and He is speaking in the mediatorial position; He says “my God and your God”, but He says “my God”, Christ’s God. Think of the infiniteness of that Being that Christ refers to in manhood as His God, and surely we can allude to that; and then it says “your God”. Well, “our God”. What does that involve? Surely the Father, the Son and the Spirit are involved in that. But then it is all a question of what may be in the person’s mind as he speaks. The person may be alluding to God in His supremacy, a Supreme Being to be worshipped, without formally alluding to the Father, the Son and the Spirit; but then he may allude to the Father and the Son and the Spirit, which is quite in keeping with the truth, because God is so spoken of in the Scriptures as Father, Son and Spirit. In fact I would draw the brethren’s attention to J.N.D.’s Synopsis on John 17, the way he speaks of “communion with that Being, God, the Father, and the Son”.
- .H. Is that why we use the formula in Matthew in baptism, “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” - to one Name?
SMcC Yes, I think it is important that we should see this matter of relationship: that we should not allow the enemy to suggest in any shape or form that we get out of the place of relationship - that there is some position that we get into in the service of God where we are beyond relationship. We never do. We are always in relationship in sonship, and we worship God in His supremacy and His majesty as in that relationship, and God, “my God and your God”, is the great Name that expresses the whole thought as to the Deity, involving all three Persons,
involving that Being known in the economy in the three Persons: the Father, the Son and the Spirit.
AJG Does the fact that the Lord says to the overcomer in Philadelphia, that He will write upon him the name of His God, show that the overcomer can be seen as in the good of it, do you think?
SMcC That is it. He has in mind to put these impressions upon him so that it is apropos of our time and day that so much should be referred to in this regard, fitting in with the closing phase of things. I am sure that as we understand John 20, “my Father and your Father”, that is the relationship that God has entered upon that we might know Him in holy intimacy in relation to Him in sonship, that we are prepared for and “my God and your God”, which brings into our minds the great thought of the Supreme Being who is the End, in all divine operations and in all that is in mind in the worship of Himself.
JSE Is the allusion to “my God” in John 20 the Lord’s assertion of the matter as a matter by itself, made by Him who knows all that it means in fulness; but is the allusion to “My God” which has been referred to in Revelation 3 to help us to see how attracted the Lord is to an overcomer, so that He Himself puts that impress upon such persons?
SMcC Yes, so that it is important to see the bearing of the Lord’s words in that particular setting, involving a phase of things in the particular assembly that they are addressed to - Philadelphia.