THE DIGNITY AND PRIVILEGES OF THE SAINTS OF THE ASSEMBLY

Romans 8: 26–34; Hebrews 12: 22–24; Luke 10: 17–24

GCMcK One was impressed, dear brethren, by the very great dignity of the saints of the assembly and the remarkable privileges that belong to them. The section in Romans 8 which speaks of those who are called according to purpose, and sets out divine purposes and operations in regard to them, I thought might give us some avenue into understanding how great the saints are, that such wonderful divine proposals should centre in them. “He has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son”, seems to be a kind of summit there.

You could hardly think of a greater proposal for creatures than to be conformed to the image of God’s Son. In the section in Hebrews, “the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven”, is in mind; it is an august scene giving the wonderful elements in the divine system, and in that scene there is a special company which we are privileged to have part in, described as the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven. As the brethren know there is a direct link between that and the scripture in Luke 10, the Lord indicating to His own what they ought to rejoice in. Rather than success in service and the overcoming of the evil spirits, even the demons, what they ought to rejoice in is that their names are written in the heavens. These thoughts are not new to us, but perhaps we may receive some fresh sense of what a wonderful thing it is to be thus the subjects of divine counsels.

The scripture in Romans is specially touching, because before speaking of those who love God it speaks of their weakness. They are part of a groaning creation and the Holy Spirit Himself is serving such persons in intercession. After the great matter of the divine purpose we have other wonderful matters, in God sparing not His Son, and the intercession of Christ.

How great persons must be that divine Persons thus have acted towards them. That was something of the line that was in mind.

RJC I thought of what you said as to the greatness of the personnel of the assembly, that divine Persons, each divine Person, is active in relation to them. It is very encouraging to think that, even if our prayers are not too intelligent sometimes, the Spirit Itself makes intercession for us. So, each divine Person has an interest in the saints and serves them at present, do you think?

GCMcK I think that is right. So that the saints are preserved according to the greatness of what is purposed for them, and even in their groaning, their attempts to pray as to the conditions that they feel so much, the Holy Spirit lends His help, so that that intercession is maintained by the Spirit at a level that is suitable for such persons in the mind of God.

NJH Was it intended to strengthen Timothy when he was reminded of this matter in the second epistle, after the breakdown, “called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages of time”, 2 Timothy 1: 9?

GCMcK Yes, that is where everything is stable and nothing can fail, what is in Christ Jesus and what relates to the purpose of God. It is a wonderful thing to get into the realm of divine purpose, because when you get there you leave behind any thought of your own weakness and failure; because everything really is connected with divine operations and nothing can fail. Yet we feel the weakness, we feel circumstances, we feel the opposition, the tribulation and distress that comes into this section, all these things are felt, but we are sustained above them, and through them, and one of the things that sustains us is the light of God’s purpose as to us, what He has in mind for us.

JSp In the scripture our brother quoted, purpose and grace come together. Is grace the divine resource that is to maintain us on that level?

GCMcK Yes, so not only is there set out in this scripture what God purposed, what He predestinated us to, but we have in verse 30 the divine operations in time, in the calling and justifying and glorifying. So that God proposes great matters, and He has the resource to sustain us in relation to them; therefore we should not faint, we should not give up these divine proposals, these elevated wonderful matters. They are not beyond us; God is operating to bring us to them and grace comes in there, love in operation.

RJC At present we are glorified. It does not only anticipate what we will be when we are taken to be with Christ, but at present even, we are glorified by the gift of the Holy Spirit, do you think?

GCMcK Yes, we often remark that the glorification involves that these persons, the saints of the assembly, are given this wonderful gift. No doubt the fulness of these things lies ahead, a change of condition in our bodies. Bodies of glory are really in mind in the fullest thought, but already, in receiving the Spirit, we anticipate these things. It is something to be laid hold of now; and something is formed in the saints in connection with these things. These are persons that love God; it does not say persons that are loved by God, it is those who love God. Something is being formed in these persons; I suppose we can take it as the fruit of what is set out as to the gospel and the operations of God in the glad tidings in this epistle; the products of these wonderful movements of divine love is persons in whom something is formed constitutionally, so that they love God. Really they are going to be equal to the great divine proposals.

WL Twice in the chapter the apostle speaks of the mind of the Spirit. What do you think of the importance of that? It is not a question of the mind of man rationally sorting things out. The mind of the Spirit life and peace was the earlier reference, but here “he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he intercedes for saints according to God”. Is that the divine standard?

GCMcK That is right. So that in possessing the Spirit the saints are given wonderful capacity, not only capacity to live here righteously, the Spirit life on account of righteousness, but help in their minds, so that they are occupied with the things of the Spirit, and it can be said of them that the mind of the Spirit is to be found in their hearts. He who searches the hearts is God and He knows the mind of the Spirit, I suppose because it is being brought out in these groanings which cannot be uttered, that really have their source in the Holy Spirit, but yet are in the hearts of the saints.

WL Would it link with what the Lord says to each of the assemblies in Revelation, speaking of the Spirit?

GCMcK Yes, it is present. These things are not deferred, we know these things in a living sense; we are connected with a living system of things.

JCG Do you think that the reference to working together would involve the Spirit in the saints inwardly? I was thinking of the matter of purpose, it is God’s objective. We do know that “all things work together” is not taking any incident in its isolation, but seeking to hold in our minds the operations of the Spirit and an understanding of how they work together.

GCMcK It is remarkable; only God could do that; only God could arrange that all things work together for good. He may bring in distress—there is illness amongst us—and there might be persecution. He may allow these things, and then He brings His love into our hearts by the Spirit. Thus there are things that are good and beneficial and blessed, and there are things that appear to be adverse. God uses them both, and they operate together with a positive result. We do not know what to pray for as is fitting, we feel our weakness, but we come on to solid ground when we know the God that we love; we know that all things work together under His hand for good for us.

DBR It is a peculiar way to speak of the Spirit when it says, “the Spirit itself’, and that is in the setting where He makes intercession in the presence of our own weakness. Do you think the thought of “the Spirit itself” means that it is none less than that Person?

GCMcK I thought that, and then God spared not His own Son. You think of divine Persons Themselves being involved in this great matter to bring about the result of divine purpose, and to bring it about in us, and assure our hearts in it too.

RG Earlier it says the Spirit dwells in you. Is the Spirit the power for the process to continue, to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He might be the firstborn among many brethren? You referred to the One that had died, given Himself up, but to be conformed to the image of His Son refers to the One who is now eternally in relationship of Son and we are His brethren. But there is a process going on now—being conformed.

GCMcK Yes, I think that is right. I think this epistle is to set us on that road, the formative road; not only the relief of our sins, but there might be actually formed in us a spiritual constitution. I understand that this point in Romans really corresponds with the end of the wilderness; the saints are ready for the land, their conformity is appearing in that connection. It is in view of the land of divine purposes.

RG So the ark was going before, the Spirit was with them, and so long as they kept two thousand cubits from the ark with their eye on the ark, then the land was there for their enjoyment, and they were suited as persons to go into the land.

GCMcK Yes, what is predicated of the saints in Romans 8 is that they are persons who are suitable for the land, ready to go in, and there is some formation. The operations of the Spirit mean that persons are ready for the land. The saints are being made equal for the divine purpose; there is not a great disparity between the saints and what is proposed for them.

NJH It says earlier, “The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit”, but, here, the Spirit is at liberty in the believer; He is operating in the believer.

GCMcK Yes, in a most intimate way too, with groanings that cannot be uttered. I am glad of what is being said, the stress that is being laid on the operations of the Spirit in connection with this great matter, because it is a question of divine operations.

RG It has often been said that transformation is immediate. “But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed” (2 Corinthians 3: 18), for example; that is immediate, but when it comes to conformation that is a process that is going on, or should be going on in the soul of the saint, so that there is suitability for the eternal purpose.

GCMcK I think that is right, and that is the importance of the exercises of Romans, that there is something being formed in suitability, and then the divine purpose comes into view and the saints are equal to it. It is not brought forward earlier, but at this point you reach Pisgah, in type, as I understand, you look into the land, into Ephesians at this point; that is because the thought is that divine operations through the glad tidings and through the gift of the Spirit are being effective in the souls of the saints.

CKR Does it emphasise that the gift of the Spirit in this dispensation is an indwelling Spirit? There were previous times when it came in different ways, but this is something absolutely distinct, and I just wondered whether it is the only way the saints will reach through to the full enjoyment of the purpose of God.

GCMcK I think that is right. So the Holy Spirit is given and brings the love of God into our hearts, “the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts”, Romans 5: 5. Then in chapter 8 love is flowing from the hearts of the saints towards God, the Spirit is producing that wonderful result. It is a remarkable thing, “those who love God”, that involves formation in love and in the knowledge of God, as far as we have in Romans.

WL Paul is largely ignored in Christendom today. It is prevalent, one hears it often, But that is just Paul. We need to see that the Spirit used Paul to speak as an elect vessel.

GCMcK Well, he was a peculiar vessel. He says to the Corinthians, “I have espoused you unto one man”, 2 Corinthians 11: 2. It is often said that he comes very close to the mission of the Holy Spirit Himself in regard to the chaste virgin for Christ.

WMP With reference to the end of the wilderness journey, in Numbers 28, it is “My offering” (Numbers 28: 2). You begin to see how something is being secured in wealth and fulness in the saints that is going to yield for God, and in chapter 29 it goes on to the eighth day.

GCMcK So that is a section that emphasises what is for God, and there has to be nothing short. It is indicated that there has to be a fulness in every part of the offering and what accompanied the offering, the drink-offering and the oblation. Everything has to be complete.

You can understand, then, that if persons are nourished in their souls in these exercises in relation to the Spirit, the product will be sufficient for the divine demand and divine desire. So it is a full result for God in view. It is not simply blessing for us, it is for God.

DTP So maturity in the soul brings about this response that comes in, “we more than conquer through him that has loved us” (Romans 8: 37), as he brings in later in this chapter. Maturity in the soul is the state for enjoying these blessed things.

GCMcK Yes, what persons they are; nothing can separate these persons from the love of Christ, and nothing can separate them from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. How blessed to think of that! Wherever they come against tribulation or distress, whether it is death or life, whatever it might be that might present any danger to them, they are superior to it; it is divine love that makes them superior, the operations of divine love.

DBR There are peculiar depths touched in the section, it says “the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered”. What would you say about that?

GCMcK Weil, we have in the section the greatness of these persons in divine purpose. On the other hand you get what exists in the present creation where even the saints, those who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, groan in themselves. I suppose there must be a capacity in the saints to feel things the way unregenerate persons cannot feel, even as to what is proceeding in creation. Do you think the Spirit would enable us to have deeper and fuller feelings in regard to the situation?

DBR I was wondering about the early verses of Genesis 1, where you may say the Spirit is by Himself. He is feeling the thing there, hovering over the deep; and now it is in the hearts of men and women in concert with Himself, do you think? The exercise that we should have is that we might be in concert with the Spirit and His operations, and His feeling about matters.

GCMcK I think the thought of divine operations should lay hold of our souls. We think rightly of course of our own exercises, what we pass through, but God is operating, divine Persons are operating to an end, and really where we get help is in making ourselves available to that operation. That would involve making way for the Holy Spirit as in chapter 8 of Romans. These are wonderful things that are said of them, “those who are called according to purpose”. Many of these expressions could be dwelt upon to bring out the greatness of what is in mind. Called, but not only called, but called according to purpose; what God has had in mind in calling us. We have to think of that; not only have we been relieved from our sins, relieved of our awful state through the glad tidings and the work of Christ; but, behind all that there is something more than meeting our need; it is a divine call involving divine purposes. What is in mind as a great end for the saints is to be conformed to the image of God’s Son.

NMcK Could you say something about what John says, “which thing is true in him and in you”, 1 John 2: 8? The saints are formed according to Christ; it is the way we have been formed, the pattern to which we have been formed, something that is true in Christ and true in us.

GCMcK I think that is a scripture that bears on what we are speaking about. You get the commandments, the old commandment which was what was true in Christ, but then a new commandment, “which thing is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light already shines”. And it goes on from there to loving your brother, being in the light and so on. That is the thought that what is formed in the saints corresponds to Christ. We were speaking of the formative side, and that is that the old commandment has an answer in the new commandment, because the new commandment is true both in Christ and in the saints, a wonderful thing.

DBR It would eliminate the need for relying on human resources, and also eliminate our often falling into human ways of doing things. The divine standard must be the only way. First of all it is seen in Christ, it has now to be seen in us, do you think?

GCMcK So the Spirit intercedes for saints according to God; it is the level at which things are being maintained. It is not any human level. If you take the last section in Romans 8, as to the tribulations that the saints might endure, and the challenge of evil against them, an accusation brought against God’s elect, you get some sense of the greatness of the persons, and how everything that is against them has been completely overcome, because of the divine operations and the love of God known.

RJC When these things enter into purpose God has actually effected them. It is wonderfully encouraging and uplifting to think that God has carried through what He had in mind in purpose. All are now brought to pass through the work of Christ and where He is now. God has arrived, in a sense, at what He has always desired, that Christ should be there and that the saints should be there with Him. That should have an effect on our lives down here.

GCMcK Well, it must have, if some of these great truths lay hold of us I am sure it would affect us deeply. God is doing this and He is doing it precisely, deliberately; it is not just that He had in mind that certain persons would be conformed to Christ, the actual persons were sovereignly chosen. How wonderful! Then predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son, because all the divine operations have this in mind, that everything for the heart of God has to be patterned after Christ, nothing else would satisfy Him.

NJH Did the Lord in John’s gospel in the latter chapters show that the service of the Spirit would have the same character as His own? The intercession of the Spirit Itself, and then the One who is at the right hand of God, that is Christ, who also intercedes for us.

GCMcK So that the Spirit is spoken of as another Comforter. It is not that we lose the Lord, He is still our Paraclete on high, but then we have another Comforter here, and there is a correspondence between Christ on high and the Spirit here. There is a great efficacy in divine operations because of that disposition; that Christ is on high, caring for our interests on high, and the Holy Spirit is down here bringing the glory of Christ into our hearts, and seeing to matters down here.

WL One of His objectives, which is very important it seems to me, is that He should be the Firstborn among many brethren. The prominence of Christ is brought to light in a distinctive way, do you think?

GCMcK Yes, He is the Firstborn among many brethren. That is a special title of Christ, He is the Firstborn. When we come to the assembly of firstborn ones it is not quite the same. Christ, the Firstborn, is a distinctive thing that belongs to Him alone, Firstborn among many brethren.

JSp What we are speaking about is anticipated each Lord’s day, the merging of God’s ways and His purpose. I am thinking of the ways God uses in His wisdom in operations in the wilderness. We see it individually and then we merge in the great thought of God’s purpose.

GCMcK Yes, I think that. It is easy perhaps to be occupied with faults and weaknesses among the brethren, but you arrive at the Supper and enter into the service of God and the saints shine. What they have been going through in their souls contributes to the quality and tone that exists in the service of God, and you get a glimpse of this, that what the saints will arrive at will be exactly according to God’s purpose. Nothing is going to be missing or lost. It is a wonderful thing. How great they are!

CKR Paul seems to have a very distinctive impression of the value of the saints. I wonder if you could say a word on that. I wonder if it is all a continuation of the filling out of, “why dost thou persecute me?”, Acts 9: 4. He had great light as to the assembly, but he had a wonderful appreciation of the personnel who are described in this way, mature believers that have been secured through the gospel.

GCMcK The epistles are full of Paul’s appreciation of the saints. The salutations are remarkable, his personal knowledge of the saints and their history, and what he can say about them. Everywhere he went he seemed to boast as to the Corinthians; they were his letter and if you met Paul he would tell you how wonderful the brethren were. I think we should be like that, write the brethren up and see what they really are, because they are great persons; they are great in divine purposes, and they are to become great, you might say, in divine formation.

WL “These also he has glorified”, is a present thing. We need to look at one another from that standpoint.

GCMcK That is right. It is not deferred in that sense as the greatness of the saints appears.

When we come to Hebrews, there is much that can be said as to the things that we have come to. What one had in mind is that in this wonderful setting, mount Zion, the city of the living God, myriads of angels, and God Himself, and Jesus, in the midst of it all you have this special company who are described as, “the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven”. It is a heavenly family and refers to the saints of the assembly. I wondered if we could get some touch as to that.

TDB You referred at the beginning of the reading to dignity—would you say more about that, as marking the saints?

GCMcK I think the anointing especially conveys the thought of dignity. The saints as given the Spirit are thus on this principle glorified, because the anointing suggests that there is something that pleases God, that is not simply of nature, not of the first order at all. It is a spiritual dignity that belongs to another order of manhood, and the Holy Spirit is given as anointing that person and as dignifying him.

RJC This only enters into the divine family, you could never have an assembly of firstborn ones naturally, but God has operated in His own way to secure persons of this kind, the assembly of the firstborn ones. So every one is dignified.

GCMcK Well, quite so. The firstborn in the natural family is the special one. You get that in the Old Testament, the firstborn gets the double portion, the special place that no one else had. But in this divine family every one has the same special, blessed dignity. The firstborn suggests also the best. The best for God goes back to the Levites, and back to the firstborn that were spared in Egypt; God claimed them. He claimed the best for Himself, the firstborn.

RG “I go to prepare you a place”, John 14: 2. That is the place for the firstborn ones. It says in Psalm 16, “To the saints that are on the earth, and to the excellent thou hast said, In them is all my delight” (Psalm 16: 3), but this is the excellent in heaven. If He found His delight in an earthly people, and will find His delight in an earthly people, how much more delight will He find in a heavenly people, the firstborn ones.

GCMcK I think that is right. Romans anticipates it. It deals with the saints really as on earth, but we have a glimpse into the glory of divine purpose in Romans 8. But here, there is not so much developed the thought of the saints as already formed in view of this, because the Hebrew saints were not as advanced as they might have been, but it is the blessed light of the thing that is here. It is a heavenly family that is so special, registered in heaven; their names are on the register, specific persons. We can take that to ourselves and say, My name is there, registered in heaven, which is far greater than any earthly dignity. There is no roll of honour in the world that can compare at all with that.

NJH Moses said, “blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book” (Exodus 32: 32), but that was not possible, was it? It is not possible for this register to be altered.

GCMcK This is a very special register. There is a book of life, and the saints are all in the book of life, including Old Testament saints, but the assembly of firstborn ones is a special family. Our names registered in heaven is another matter.

GAB Do you connect the registration with foreknowledge that is back to Romans 8, “whom he has foreknown”; God knew who He was predestinating and registered them accordingly? There would be a moral justification for what God has done in registering such persons.

GCMcK God is justified in what He does, and yet if you go back to the original predestination it is sovereign, is it not? What eventuates in the divine ways is that God is justified, wisdom is justified in all her children, and the saints rise, you might say, through divine mercy to what God had in mind for them.

GAB It is just the matter of foreknowledge, that God is able to look down, through time, and see persons who justify what He has in mind for them, and such persons He predestinates and registers; they are named as divine property.

GCMcK Exactly. When you think of the persons’ names being registered you think of the spiritual personality there is in them, what these persons are in their dignity.

RG I was just going to ask that, what this name is. You get “Saul, who also is Paul”, Acts 13: 9. Then you get Peter, his name was changed, you get the sons of Boanerges, you get persons’ names that have been changed. Do you think we should be looking for what is spiritual, and be able to identify that because that is what is registered in heaven? It is that name. It is not the name that is on some man-made register down here, it is God’s register in heaven.

GCMcK Quite so. The identity of the person goes through of course, but the registration I believe is in the light of what you are saying, heavenly purposes for these persons and what they are in spiritual dignity, and their names would bring that out. The name of a person suggests what belongs to him in spiritual dignity.

WL Just a practical enquiry—the Lord says to Sardis, “He that overcomes, he shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, and will confess his name before my Father and before his angels”, Revelation 3: 5. How do you understand that?

GCMcK Well, some have taken it to mean that there might be a provisional registration in the book of life, that there might be a possibility of a person’s name being blotted out, but Mr Taylor does not think so. You cannot take this negative to make a positive, “I will not blot his name out”, does not suggest it could be blotted out. That is what I understand.

WL It has also been said it may relate to our practical walk down here.

GCMcK Well, “he shall be clothed in white garments” would answer to faithfulness. Although the book of life is a sovereign register, the suggestion of being in the book of life means that you are a living person. I do not think you will find dead persons’ names in the book of life, spiritually dead persons. It is a book of life, a real matter.

WL I wonder that the Lord should say that, a very solemn thing that the Lord should say that at all. I remember a brother giving an address and referring to “and will confess his name before my Father and before his angels”. What he said in his address affected me greatly. He said. What would the Lord say to the Father about you or me? That is a great challenge.

GCMcK Well, that is the practical side, am I justifying having my name in the book of life? Are these things coming out in my life? Will I be clothed in white garments that correspond with my faithfulness down here? What you allude to is another thing—how great the saints are to have their names confessed before the Father and His angels!

CKR Your exercise in this section is to come to the realisation of this glorious fact, to appreciate the truth, to enjoy it, and to see what God has done with such an assembly of personnel described as firstborn ones.

GCMcK I think that is what it is. We should survey this scene and get some understanding of it, what mount Zion might mean, the blessedness of it, the great principle of sovereign mercy that permeates God’s world. What He establishes of Himself is on the basis of His own sovereign mercy. In the thought of the city, there is a view of administration in the assembly, the heavenly Jerusalem. Then there are “myriads of angels, the universal gathering”, that is all the angels; think how great a scene this is, and in the midst of it we come to “the assembly of the firstborn”. Then it rises to “God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus”, and it finishes with the reference to the blood of sprinkling. It is a most touching scene, an august scene, a wonderful scene, and in that scene there is a heavenly family that are specially marked out.

Ques. Is that why the apostle could say that God has set me apart from my mother’s womb? When he thought of his history this would be filling his soul.

GCMcK History is dealt with, is it not? We cannot deny our history. Paul did not, he confessed to what he had been, an insolent overbearing man and so on, but he was free from it. He could also say, “by God’s grace I am what I am”, 1 Corinthians 15: 10. So it is a question of what we are, not only what we have been, that has been dealt with, but what we are. Each of us should be able to say that. It would not be right to say that you are nothing. You are a believer in the Lord Jesus, indwelt by the Spirit, so that you cannot say you are nothing, but you can say, I am what I am. That is the test, what we are.

Perhaps the section in Luke 10 might open this out a little more to us. Heaven is in view. The seventy that went out returned with joy; the initial joy is the joy of successful service, “even the demons are subject to us through thy name”. Then the Lord immediately refers to Satan as lightning falling out of heaven— falling out of heaven, then he speaks of the saints’ names being written in the heavens not registered in this case, but written in the heavens. So you can see that what this means is that the saints are heavenly, they belong to heaven; heaven belongs to them, we might even say.

WMP Would you find what is indelible in the writing? The fact that it is written suggests that there is some process, some transaction has taken place. What would you say about that? There was a time when it was written.

GCMcK An interesting enquiry. You might say, some hand wrote my name. It makes it very personal, showing the personal interest divine Persons take in each saint, that each name was written in the heavens. It is an elevated register indeed.

And it is a source of rejoicing, “Yet in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens”. So one of the effects of our conversation should be that there is more joy; we rejoice that our names are written in heaven and that we belong up there. Satan fell, he is going to fall out of heaven because it does not belong to him. He has taken a place in heaven and he is operating from there, and the time will come when he is going to fall out of heaven. But the saints belong there, it belongs to the saints, you might say.

NJH So it was with Moses on the mount, the tables of testimony were different but the writing was the same, God’s writing and this is God’s writing.

GCMcK Yes, I believe that. It is a very interesting enquiry as to writing. But, as remarked earlier, it is indelible, it is a fixed matter in heaven; it is not a provisional matter.

WL Would the list of names at the end of Romans and elsewhere be a practical example of persons whose names are registered in heaven?

GCMcK Yes, these persons are already known down here I think, so in the epistle to Romans Paul speaks of persons and gives a touch as to every one too. I think that is important when we speak about the saints, that we identify the spiritual quality in the person. We often do that when we are burying a saint, and that is a fine thing, but we do not have to wait till then to point to that, the spiritual qualities that are in the saints.

RJC I was thinking of what has often been said as to the great contrast of Satan falling out of heaven and the assembly, a great, dignified, august vessel coming down from heaven, having the glory of God. What a contrast. Satan had to go, but the assembly belongs to heaven but it comes down here in view of administration.

GCMcK Quite so. She descends in wonderful, heavenly grace, and in glory in the liberty of sonship. She is a heavenly vessel and the personnel are heavenly, their names are written there. So, it is a question of rejoicing. The Lord Jesus says to rejoice, and why to rejoice, and then He rejoices. These great divine things are not simply very interesting, but they are so wonderful they should be a source of rejoicing in our hearts as we lay hold of them. The Lord rejoices here that the Father is operating, hiding things from wise and prudent and revealing them to babes. There it is, the process, the divine operations are proceeding and the Lord Jesus rejoices in it.

JCG You were referring earlier to the disciples being dignified by the Lord. What they saw and heard, others would have liked to have seen and heard but did not. John, in his epistle, says, “that which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us”, 1 John 1: 3. It involves the work of the Spirit, that what was manifested has been brought down throughout the whole dispensation, even to our time.

GCMcK Yes, it comes within our reach. So, it is a question of our eyes and our ears.

What is the Spirit saying to the assemblies? What is the report that is coming to us? These things are coming in the power of the Spirit, they come in the ministry, they come in our gatherings. Are they wonderful to us? These kings wished to see these things, but they did not see them; I suppose you could say David and Solomon did not see things the way we see them. They were kings, glorious and wonderful men, but they did not see exactly what we see. And the prophets, how remarkable they were and they wished to see these things, but the disciples saw them and now it comes down to us. Do we find these things wonderful? Or do we treat them lightly, these blessed matters?

DCB The reference to babes—it is important that that is how we receive them. We do not receive them with our natural minds and we wonder, because we are absorbing them just as a babe would absorb.

GCMcK I think that is good, the simplicity and guilelessness of a babe would absorb things. They are

wonderful persons, their names are written in the heavens, but their character down here is that there is no assumption of wisdom and prudence; there is just the receiving of what comes from the Father, the Father revealing to them. Again, how wonderful to be persons to whom the Father reveals things, what an exercise to be babes that we might have things revealed to us. So he turns to the disciples privately—this is a special matter. The Lord turns specially to the disciples privately and says certain things to them. Have we got ears and eyes to take in these things, have we enough interest? Moses turned aside to see. Have we enough interest to turn aside to see these wondrous things?

JSp This gave the Lord great joy, did it not? In that hour He rejoiced in spirit. What would you say about that?

GCMcK Well, it is clear that divine Persons have joy and pleasure in what they are doing in our hearts. “Thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight”, the Lord says, that is the pleasure of the Father. The Lord Jesus also is praising and rejoicing on account of this. It is almost hard to take in that divine Persons Themselves should find joy and pleasure in operating in our hearts. That points to how great the saints are, that divine Persons operate with us directly.

DBR The secret side would become a great preservative to us. It says, “The secret of Jehovah is with them that fear him” (Psalm 25: 14), but I was thinking of the tendency of going beyond and going outside ministries that are of God. Do you not think if we were in the gain of this private side, we would be anxious and concerned to understand what the divine secret is and what God is proceeding with? The whole section in Luke 10 seems to suggest that to me, that there is a secret side, an intimate side that we cannot do without.

GCMcK I think that is right. The chapter ends with Mary sitting at the Lord’s feet, absorbed with Him. It is just a question then as to whether matters are really coming directly from Christ. We can have good things said but the question is, Is this something coming in the power of the Spirit from Christ? Is this something of this private and secret and real matter? Is this the question of the Father’s operations? I believe there is a current in the Holy Spirit’s operations, a kind of direct, definite line of operations; it is not just general. There is of course the general side of the truth, and it would be right to have that, but there is something more than that, revelation is more than that.

DBR Do you think it links on with the stream that comes from the exalted Head? The names are written in the heavens, and then He speaks to them privately, as if He would bring them into that stream of what He is proceeding with, what God is proceeding with. Really the glorious light of the present day is what Paul says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”, Ephesians 5: 32. We need to keep in the secret of that.

GCMcK I do not think the Spirit is diverging, I do not think the Lord Jesus is altering His course. I think what has come down to us in this dispensation, what has come to us in the recovery is the line the Spirit is on, and I do not think He will ever alter it; I think it will go right through till the end. Therefore we ought to value it and treasure it, and understand how blessed it is to have eyes that can see these things. There is joy in the section and there is blessedness, it is a question of privilege.

NJH Does the blessing anticipate the realm of the Spirit, that it is by the Spirit we hear and by the Spirit we see?

GCMcK I would think that would be right. We have anointed eyes and anointed ears, the Holy Spirit gives us the capacity to take these things in. “He that has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”, Revelation 2: 11. The suggestion is that persons who have an ear to hear are persons who are indwelt by the Spirit.

ALMcK The Lord says to Paul in Corinth, “I have much people in this city”, Acts 18: 10. Do you think it would have caused the Lord great joy to confide that to Paul? And yet Paul would have had great joy meeting these persons, one by one, knowing that their names were written in heaven.

GCMcK Yes, he would indeed. The epistles to the Corinthians show how much the Corinthians meant to the Lord, “I have much people” is the Lord speaking, but Paul embraced them wholeheartedly in his affections, whatever their faults or declension. He loved them and took them up as belonging to Christ, as valuable; he served them at much cost to himself.

JCG Paul says, “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints”, Ephesians 1: 17, 18. He is bringing out how God appreciates what the saints are as belonging to Him. It brings out the height of the calling, does it not? But it seems to be that the enlightenment in the eyes of our heart lies at the bottom of that.

GCMcK I think that is right. You have moved us on to Ephesians really. I think we have been looking towards Ephesians in the reading, and I am glad that we arrive at that, because there it is the greatness and glory of things in a supreme way, the language itself being so wonderful. The capacity to take in the greatness of Ephesian truth depends on what you quote, the Father giving us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation. These blessed matters are so great that we need special help from the Father to lay hold of them.

CKR In some sense could you say that the Lord gave much to Paul privately in the prison which then was brought out through the epistles?

GCMcK I would think that; I would understand that Paul being laid aside from active service, confined in the prison, enabled the Lord to cause the light that he already had to shine more brightly in his affections, and to grow. So that the epistles that came from the prison are specially rich.

CKR There was going to be the need for this in individual lives in view of the continuation of the testimony at the height of the level of the truth.

GCMcK Paul was special, of course, as an elect vessel; however it is possible for us to receive something directly, a fresh touch. It is not that we are looking for some kind of novelty, not that at all, but some fresh touch that would help the saints. We would covet to have that and to pass it on too.

RG It is interesting that Paul, introducing the Supper and the greatness of what it was as a basis for entering into the service of God, says “I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you”, 1 Corinthians 11: 23. There was a personal, intimate transaction obviously there, that he had received something special in relation to the calling of the Lord to mind, so that we might go with the Lord into the eternal areas of purposes in mind for us.

GCMcK In a sense Paul had the germ of everything when the Lord said, “why doest thou persecute me?” (Acts 9: 4), but he did not get everything all at once, there were other things worked out in his soul—he went to Arabia and so on. Not only was there then a great formative work, and an enlightening work in his soul, but I think during his service he got fresh touches. I think the truth as to the rapture possibly came in as a special revelation from the Lord, and it is clear when he was caught up to the third heaven that was a special experience that he had. So I believe that as he proceeded he was getting fresh touches from the Lord, fresh light too, and it applies very much to what he received from the Lord as recorded in 1 Corinthians 11. He did not just repeat what he got from the twelve as to the Lord’s institution of the Supper, he was not just retailing that, he got it direct from the Lord, and it was a bit more than you will find in the synoptic gospels.

DBR Our brother’s remark was interesting because Paul there had, you might say, a special grace shown to him in that his ear was opened to what the Lord might say to him in those prison conditions, so it is fresh light. It was Pauline truth that was really in secret with the Lord. It is interesting to note that, as you said as to Mary, she took that place, she sat at the feet of the Lord Jesus; so it is open to us all in measure to have private communications. I do not mean independent communications, but to be maintained in the secret of the divine current that is flowing.

GCMcK I think that. We have to take and adopt the right posture for that, take the time, set other things aside. Mary said, I will spend some time and set myself at the feet of Jesus. It was a deliberate action.

Perhaps thus we will receive more than we ever thought, and not only for blessing in our own souls, but so that the saints will be encouraged by it too.

Reading at Glasgow
21 April 2007

KEY TO INITIALS

T. D. Beveridge

N. J. Henry

W. M. Patterson

D. C. Brown

W. Lamont

D. T. Pye

G. A. Brown

A. L. McKay

D. B. Robertson

R. J. Campbell

G. C. McKay

C. K. Robinson

R. Gardiner

N. McKay

J. Spinks

J. C. Gray