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UPWARD

WJH The thought one would desire we might be engaged with relates to the fact recorded by the Spirit of God that part of the house of God contained three storeys or floors to which access was had by a winding staircase from floor to floor, each floor being larger than the one preceding. I think the spiritual meaning of this might be traced in the twentieth of John, and being connected with the first day of the week is a suggestion of what the Lord would have us know every first day of the week. He would have us move gradually from one level to another until it may be, we touch a little of what is in the third storey. But all depends on our being able to rightly occupy the lower floors. It is instructive to see that the thought of three storeys or three levels finds expression in most structures erected by or for God. It is evidently a prime thought with Him, hence it is not surprising to find it appears in the assembly’s history, it being specifically mentioned that Paul in Troas ministered in the third storey — Paul’s ministry takes us to that level.

AHS Had you in mind to trace the ascent first to indicate where we start?

WJH It is remarkable that the Spirit of God should record that the staircase was winding, meaning, I believe, that we go a step at a time without seeing very far ahead. Jacob saw a ladder from earth to heaven, but when the house is built there is a winding staircase, the view being not very far ahead, but nevertheless the ascent continues gradually.

Rem The thought suggested in the winding staircase is a progressive thought.

WJH Yes, winding signifying that the ascent is gradual. We have known something of what it is to see a certain distance by what is introduced at the beginning of the meeting but gradually where the Lord would bring us is discerned.

JW Steps are evenly spaced, there are no gaps.

WJH Yes, it means a steady ascent — not a sudden one like a ladder. Before we proceed with the detail a little, the brethren will see the importance of this thought as found first in the heavens, for scripture speaks of the third heaven, “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12: 2), showing there are three that can be known. Then God’s instructions to Noah were to build the ark in three storeys, the tabernacle was built in three sections, each one holier than the other; the court and the holy place, and the most holy;

the temple of Solomon has chambers erected in three storeys. Ezekiel’s temple will include three storeys; and Paul as we have said ministered in the third storey; showing he had passed through the other two necessarily. God in building man (for man is a kind of building, too) built him in three storeys, spirit, soul and body, the spirit being the highest, the soul coming next, and the body being the lowest level.

AHS Would the thoughts of those three storeys and the three sections in the tabernacle suggest something of the work of God that is necessary to fit us to reach the highest or the holiest point? The work of Christ for us and the work of God in us — the presence of the Holy Spirit in us?

WJH That is what I thought. Our ability to pass from one to the other depends on the work of God in us, and things being right on the ground floor, for our main exercises relate to our responsible life. We come together at the Supper as in the wilderness.

AHS Does the distance the Lord is able to take us at the Supper depend on how we are found on that ground floor?

WJH I think that is of the greatest importance. Our ability to really touch what is on the second and third floors depends on how far we are on the ground floor.

I think it is worked out in Mary Magdalene on the first day of the week. She moves from floor to floor, being first on the ground level of the rejection and burial of the Lord Jesus Christ. She is right there, and moves to the level of the resurrection of Christ and is adjusted there, then she moves into the light of the ascension of Christ and can carry such a heavenly message rightly. One had in mind that we should look at Mary travelling from floor to floor until she reaches the highest level a saint can know.

ABJ I was wondering if the thought of kingdom exercises are essential as being on the lowest level? We are very weak on kingdom exercises.

WJH I believe that is why it is called the Lord’s Supper. Many have regarded it as Christ’s Supper, and some God’s Supper. Some have sought to begin in the third storey disregarding the moral state of the saints present. It is the Lord’s Supper and all depends on our relation with the Lord.

GMcK The Supper also has to do with our relations with one another.

WJH “When ye come together” — the Lord’s Supper is not partaken of alone, by an individual. “When ye come together in assembly I hear there exist divisions among you” (1 Corinthians 11: 18) — showing that their relations together were not right.

GH Do you put the epistle to the Romans as on the lowest floor as setting us right in wilderness history?

WJH Romans is teaching for the ground floor in our individual exercises; Corinthians for the ground floor in our assembly exercises locally; Colossians has in view the second storey “If therefore ye have been raised with Christ” (Colossians 3: 1), but Ephesians is for the third storey — heavenly places, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ worshipped. But there is no ladder to these storeys, and all depends for us upon how we are on the ground floor.

VD Would you say a little more as to what was in your mind as to it not being Christ’s Supper but that we should view it as the Lord’s Supper?

WJH The great thought of Christ is that He is Head — the Head of the body is Christ in Colossians and Ephesians, but the setting of the Supper is not headship, but lordship, hence we are challenged as to how far we are really subject to Him.

Romans works out how an individual even with a dreadful past history can be recovered for God; Corinthians works out how a local company can be for God in a wilderness setting.

GA In relation to 1 Corinthians 11, I wondered whether the Apostle’s ministry there is not really that of a spiritual physician, he speaks of that which he is going to prescribe? Perhaps we need ministry that would adjust us in relation to the ground floor.

WJH That is good. He also speaks of himself as a wise master-builder, he would know what was suitable to the ground floor of God’s building, and hence takes up with them their moral state and their relations with one another, the deportment of the women, their hair and many other matters.

DT As being subject to the Lord in that way, is it necessary to have these narrow windows?

WJH You mean there is a restricted outlook, the windows being fixed. But each floor is larger, indicating more room being available. I mentioned the scripture in Kings to apply it to the twentieth of John, that we might see this truth worked out in Mary as a pattern. What a history she had had! Introduced in scripture as a woman controlled by seven devils, but they are cast out by the Lord, and then she follows Him, ministering to Him of her substance. Thus she is now not only free of the control of evil powers, but her substance is held rightly. I believe that is a matter which enters much into how we come together. What are we doing with our substance? She evidently had substance and had learnt how to hold and use it rightly. I believe we are at a great disadvantage at the Supper if we are holding things selfishly and thereby hindered from ascending.

GMcK Do you refer to material or spiritual substance?

WJH Both, but specially material things.

GS Mary’s communications to the two disciples were responsible for the two disciples running to the sepulchre.

WJH Yes. What a woman of influence she was, she could move them quickly! We should tarry a little at this matter of Mary and her substance. I think some have an idea that some mysterious thing happens when we come together, but what does happen is inseparable from our state. There is nothing mysterious in that sense.

JM Is that why the thought of measure is introduced in the scripture in Kings?

WJH Quite so. The Lord says “Measure the temple of God and the altar and them that worship therein” (Revelation 11: 1). The persons are measured according to their state.

CD Mary’s state was represented by what she brought, not by what she found. It is what we bring that counts. The wise men came and opened their treasures.

WJH Quite so. It is a question in this setting as to what we are doing and what we have. If we would move steadily upward on the first day of the week, the first thing is that the power of evil must be broken in our souls. The next thing is that our substance is now not held for ourselves, self no longer in control; and the third thing seen in the nineteenth chapter is that Mary stood by the cross of Jesus, that is she accepted the break with the world, for that is what the cross of Jesus does, it establishes in her heart a complete break with the world system.

JD It mentions in the first verse Mary Magdalene only, but speaking to Peter and John she says “we know not where they have laid Him.” Did you have that in view as to not having ourselves before us?

WJH Very good. She is in her mind with her brethren, and she influences Peter and John.

CPP Is she a Corinthian sister there, as saying “the Lord?” “They have taken away the Lord.” Her words to the two angels “They have taken away my Lord” would indicate she is a true Roman.

WJH That is very helpful. The Lord’s choice of her is justified. The selection of Mary was deliberate; it is because her Roman and Corinthian positions were right so that the Lord can disclose Himself to her as risen on a new level. We cannot know what it is for Him to assemble with us as risen if our individual and collective responsible positions are not right.

VD As to ministering to Him, does not the fact that she was on that line account for her being at the tomb? According to Mark she is there with two other women with their spices.

WJH Yes; she was still on the line of ministering to Him; that seems to me to precede assembling. The seven demons are gone out and what she has is now held for the Lord, and then there has been a complete break with the world by standing at the cross of Jesus, that seems to be the general underlying condition of her soul. On the first day of the week she comes to the sepulchre weeping, that is, she genuinely misses the Lord.

CD Would you suggest that at that point she is on her way to the middle floor?

WJH She is near the winding staircase. She comes on the first day of the week to the sepulchre with deep sorrow as missing the Lord. I believe the Lord is drawn to such as come together genuinely missing Him and wanting Him.

AHS Would those characteristics in Mary be what we would look for in those who desire to remember the Lord?

WJH I think that is a good suggestion. (1) They are not controlled by evil; (2) they are not controlled by self, and (3) they are not controlled by the world. Such will be found genuinely missing Christ.

CD Would you say spirit, soul and body are each rightly controlled in the three ways you have mentioned?

WJH “Your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless” (1 Thessalonians 5: 23). Every floor of the individual held in its right relation with God.

GHMcK Have you anything to say why she came in the early morning while it was still dark?

WJH I think it is the urgency of love, in keeping with Abigail of whom when she knew David’s rights had been challenged, it says “She hastened.” There was urgency on her part to see that David had his due, and I think there is the urgency of love here, as conscious that the Lord is absent.

CD Is it not a link here with the Song of Solomon? “Until the day break... I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense” — such an one is ready, suitable to move with Him — “Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee” (chapter 4: 6, 7).

WJH The mountain of myrrh and this sepulchre are kindred thoughts, the volume of suffering love suggested by the mountain of myrrh is seen in the death and burial of Jesus. The two angels in white are part of the instruction. Mary is one side, she comes weeping, but the other side is that heavenly intelligences are sitting contemplating the fact that He has been into the grave. They know He is not there but He has been there; His holy head of the finest gold and His feet also of fine gold have been there; one sits at the head and the other at the feet where the body of Jesus had lain. I believe all these thoughts are to be in mind as we come together to the Supper.

Ques Did not the Lord show His urgency in rising early; He had risen before Mary got there?

WJH Undoubtedly He was watching Mary with the greatest interest, as He does now each first day of the week, watching the gatherings of the saints, observing not merely what is external but what is really in our hearts.

VD You spoke of the angels as representing the intelligence of the saints?

WJH I do not think Mary presents the side of intelligence in this matter but deep affection for Christ, so precious to the Lord, but the two angels in white bring in the side of intelligence and purity, and they are seen sitting where His head and feet had been. As coming together we would have Mary’s feelings as missing the Lord, but the angels’ intelligence as to the position and their holy contemplation of himself as to where He has been.

GA Do we find that confirmed in the words “She stooped down into the tomb”? What a woman would naturally shrink from to the greatest possible degree, a woman with spiritual feelings does.

WJH Exactly. That action and her words “I will take Him away” show the intensity of her love; even if dead she would have Him. The Lord was listening to all this, indeed He drew out these expressions of love.

ABJ Such feelings as Mary had do not arise from impulse but are with us during the week. So that as we come together our affections are given rein to on that occasion.

WJH Some of us this morning were thinking of the word “A time to love” (Ecclesiastes 3: 8). I believe the Lord would have us unlock our affections more than we do. Mary unlocks her heart, she is not ashamed to do so.

DT Is Mary ready then for the winding staircase when she turns round and says “Master?”

WJH She has put her feet on the upward steps, all being right on the ground floor with Mary.

GS Would you emphasise what you have said about contemplation? It is there the saints acquire holy sensibilities with a view to negotiating this spiral staircase.

WJH What thoughts must have gone through the minds of these heavenly visitors, for they knew much of the glory of Christ represented by His head. The Song of Solomon tells us His head is as the finest gold. They knew something of His feet — feet set on pillars of marble; yet such an one has been into the grave.

CG The two disciples going back to their home miss this appearing. What have you in mind in relation to this?

WJH It all intensifies the fact that nothing could satisfy Mary but finding the Lord, not even her home. The Lord is looking that nothing else contents till we find Him.

Ques I was wondering if we rightly partake of the loaf and the cup it would strengthen us to move upward from floor to floor.

WJH Very good. “Take eat,” the Lord says. The bread is to strengthen the heart; the affections strengthened thus so that we can begin the ascent. Mary was ready for this so that she turns round. The Lord says “Mary.” He is not on the ground floor but on the resurrection platform; she is to learn she cannot have Him back again in flesh and blood. What a moment, however, when she recognises Him as risen!

CD Does the Lord recognise her on this upward movement in that he addresses her personally “Mary,” not “Mary Magdalene”?

WJH She will never be Magdalene in the resurrection world. She is Mary now, everything is on another level, including her knowledge of the Lord.

ET I was wondering what could correspond with the Lord saying “Mary”? Would we get the sense as together that the Lord addresses us in a particular way?

WJH We get the sense that He has come in — a wonderful moment. He has come; He is not present in that sense when we come together, but there is a moment when He comes in, the saints know it.

ET It would be unmistakable to one who loves Him.

GH The entrance to the middle floor was on the right of the house. When the Lord addresses Mary by her own personal name, is she at the entrance then to the middle storey?

WJH Yes. She is arriving there. When we come in touch with the Lord risen, we are at the second storey. The Lord assembled thus with them during forty days. Every day of the forty the brethren would come together looking for the Lord to come in as the risen one, they learn thus to know Him as beyond this scene.

TE It says He appeared unto them living for forty days.

WJH Not living in the old conditions, but living and who would have missed one of those forty days?

TE Those forty days will carry right through to the end.

WJH The forty days establish the reality of His resurrection and power to disclose Himself to them.

CG In temple service it might suggest we touch the resurrection sphere in our movements before we move to the heavenly sphere.

WJH Surely. There is this middle storey — the sphere of resurrection.

CPP Does that stress the importance of a period after the Supper for contemplation of the Lord Himself personally and His greatness and His glory, prior to moving further?

WJH I am glad you have said that. The liberty now enjoyed to speak to the Lord for a time after the Supper has been a great relief to many. The Lord lost much prior to this and the liberty of many was taken away. The moment represented by the Lord saying “Mary” when she turns round and says “Rabboni” is not to be overlooked. It has been restored to us, thank God.

GA Does the scripture in Ezekiel link on with what you are speaking of? “Therefore the house had width upward, and so ascended [from] the lower [story] to the upper, by the middle one” (Ezekiel 41: 7 — N.T.).

WJH It is exactly the same thought transferred to the coming day. What an expanse resurrection gives you! No walls hinder the Lord then, He comes in, the doors being shut — there are no restrictions in the resurrection world, there are many restrictions here.

CD I was thinking of this matter of turning. We have it twice here. Mary turned backward, it says, and John in Patmos turned to see the voice that spoke. Is not that important for ourselves? Naturally we are facing the wrong direction. “Blest Lord Thou spakest” — that is what caused the turning.

WJH Do you not think her direction was right up to that point; her direction was towards the sepulchre, but once He speaks her direction is altered entirely, she turns round when she knows it is the Lord. When the Lord comes in, it is a matter now for Him to speak to us and its to speak to Him.

JD Why does it say she said it in Hebrew?

WJH The meaning of the word “Hebrew” is not quite clear but it is probably the language of the “passer-over.” She is now passing over — it is the language of one passing over from one realm to another — the language of God’s people, of course — not the language of the world.

CD In her saying “Teacher” she is really ready for the next move.

WJH Quite so. She is now ready to be instructed how she may pass to the third floor.

AHS The second floor is the enjoyment of relationship with Christ as Head. Christ as the risen Man, not yet the ascended One.

WJH Yes. As risen in touch with His people.

GMcK You were saying that the first floor to a certain extent is marked by restrictions.

WJH Yes. There is more room as we move upwards.

GMcK Being still in the world and knowing the meaning of the cross, we are restricted. As we meet others we have to be restrained, but as we touch the resurrection side we are in a large place.

WJH That is it. A large upper room furnished.

GA How can we be helped to get a touch from the Lord so that we may not stay unduly at this point and miss the third floor?

WJH That is a wholesome exercise and I think what has been said touches it. Mary says “Teacher.” We have to be taught for it is a great matter how we are to go to the third storey. The Lord does not send the saints to glory, He brings them, He is with them and leads them. If He had sent them He would leave them, but it says “Bringing many sons to glory” (Hebrews 2: 10). The way God brings us to glory is by Christ being with us as “leader.” He brings us to God, He does not send us to God; He brings us to glory, and that is really the bearing of this message to Mary, “Go to My brethren and say to them ‘I ascend to my Father and your Father’.” He associates them with Himself thus.

ABJ In connection with that, sometimes we get hymns addressed to the Lord as ascended in glory in the latter part of the meeting, and yet if we are assured that He comes to us, would He not remain with us? Would we not address Him as being with us, and not put Him at a distance, and through a hymn address Him as far from us? It is something we often notice amongst us. Could you help us?

WJH I think what was just said touched that point, that He is with the sons that are brought to glory. He does not send us to the Father, but He takes us as the One who ascends.

CD Will there be any difficulty if we come under His leading, giving Him His place, saying “Teacher” to Him? It is His matter to take us there. The One who said “No man cometh unto the Father but by Me” will surely take us there if we are subject to His leading, subject to His control.

LGL “I rejoiced when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of Jehovah” (Psalm 122). Lower down he speaks of Jerusalem, “To give thanks unto the name of Jehovah! For there are set thrones for judgment, the thrones of the house of David.” There seems to be an ascending line.

WJH Indeed. The thought of the Songs of Degrees is one of gradual ascent step by step.

JNG Would the recognition of the Lord as Teacher make room for a word from Him in view of movement?

WJH Yes. That is instructive. He may help as to this matter of the third storey by a word of instruction from the Teacher, a word that will stimulate the brethren to go up.

WA The Lord is seen standing in John 20; not sitting as in the thirteenth chapter.

WJH Sitting involves a prolonged position, but standing is a temporary one in view of movement. A word sometimes definitely helps the brethren to proceed upward. What moments if we reach what is represented by the third storey! “My God and your God” I think is the highest spiritual elevation ever reached. The holy city comes from such a height, it comes down out of heaven from My God.

TF The Lord spoke in the thirteenth John that they might have part with Him.

WJH Having that in view He washed their feet so that they may be free to move on to what He says from the fourteenth to the seventeenth chapters — the Father’s house, and the Lord Himself speaking to the Father.

JSB You referred to allowing our affections to be unlocked. In such a spiritual elevation there would be spiritual emotions and this might find expression in a more responsive amen.

WJH Yes, indeed, a response much needed. The emotions of Mary are unlocked in her tears as missing the Lord; secondly they are unlocked on the second floor when she says “Rabboni.” Brief indeed, but what depth! The affections are unlocked in the third floor in the cry “Abba, Father.” It is a cry and a cry involves deep feelings in the heart. The Lord lifted up His eyes to heaven and said “Father” (John 17: 1).

CPP Does the thought of brethren belong to the second floor and is an apprehension of the truth of that a necessity before we can approach the Father?

WJH I think on the second floor you get the saints’ relations with Christ well established in the heart, and His personal glory. Colossians unfolds this. What a theme to fill our hearts! But Ephesians speaks of the God of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Father of glory.

VTS Do we get the Lord’s desire for us to move up to the third storey as He says to Mary “Touch Me not”?

WJH Quite so. She for the moment would have liked to retain the Lord on the ground floor, but even the second floor is not the final thought. There is still a higher realm. He would have us know that there is still another realm. “Go tell my brethren, I ascend to my Father and your Father and my God and your God.”

CD In Kings the third floor is seven cubits broad.

WJH Seven is finality and completeness. We come to the great terminus of God’s thoughts in the third storey.

GA The seventeenth John would give us an impression of “my Father and your Father.” What had you in mind as to the further thought “my God and your God.”

WJH My impression is the thought “My God and your God” brings before our hearts what has been called the border of the infinite. Beyond that elevation is the realm of the infinite, “far above all the heavens.” There is a realm above the third heaven which no creature can enter, but I believe “My God and your God” presents the highest conception of God that can ever be known in any measure, by men.

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