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SPIRITUAL CHANGE

B.M.D. We shall need the Spirit’s help as we consider Him and His service in these passages. They seem to imply movement, and also they imply change. In our experience we need to become accustomed to spiritual change. The Spirit, as we know, will have to do presently with the physical too, in regard to our bodies. There is much wealth which can flow into this meeting, in which we would surely find joyous liberty together. But what some of us touched a little this morning was the Lord saying to the Father “I have made known to them thy name”, and then He says “and will make it known”. It just seemed that in between those two statements there is a movement, there is a change of condition, a change of position. What we read may lead us to that, indeed to the very threshold of what is abiding, eternal.

I thought well to begin in the well-known section in John 4 which involves the idea of a moral change. The indication in chapter 7 is to where Christ is now glorified, “the Spirit was not yet”, it says, “because Jesus had not yet been glorified”; whereas now in this time we are in, that is the actual position, He is glorified at the right hand of God. Then in the instruction in chapter 20 it is the Lord as out of death teaching them to know Him another way. “Touch me not”, He says, “I have not yet ascended”. The clear inference is that they were to be associated with Him in another condition, another order of things, death having been removed. Then I thought it would be right and healthy to go back again to review the position reached in Numbers 21, which I think may have a connection with what we trust the Lord and the Spirit may open up to us, because movement is in mind, rapid movement. The land is in view and, pretty much dear brethren, that is our position, is it not? Heaven, the glory, is before us.

A.J.E.W. This woman had a certain background and a certain line of experience, in drinking of the water of the well, which the Lord turned to account by presenting the change in the most attractive manner possible: “the water which I shall give him shall never thirst for ever”: what an attracting point that would be to get a hold upon this woman in relation to the change you speak of!

B.M.D. So in the Lord’s service to each of us we are never left without that holy incentive. He fills us in the skill of His own service. None of us can escape the edge of His word, nor would we wish to do so. As long as we are here we shall need the searching character of the word, leading us into something which is exceedingly precious. It is leading here in the direction of eternal life.

D.J.H. Do you get leading in that way in these scriptures? In the first one it is “every one” and “If any one”; but then He breathes into them as together, and then there is the corporate movement, it would seem, in Numbers.

B.M.D. That fully confirms what I trust we may get some help about, as leading into the full enjoyment of the collective position, but it is leading to heaven. I mean, what would quicken us more than to think that we are on the very threshold of that change of condition?

D.J.H. That might have some bearing on what you have twice said as to eternal life.

B.M.D. It is leading that way in our first passage, is it not? It is not that we would enjoy that only individually, but it is leading into that sphere where a soul that is finding her object in Christ, the One who served her and met her in all the moral degradation and now fills her heart, cannot find rest save in the company of similar persons.

E.C.B. The Lord does not tell this woman she must be changed, but she was changed.

B.M.D. What He furnished for her in the living water, do you think, effected it?

E.C.B. Yes, she was given a fresh object, was she not? “If thou knewest ... who it is that says to thee”. And is it a fresh object that changes us, and the Spirit holds us in relation to that object?

B.M.D. Therefore we should not be afraid or ashamed to be fully exposed in the presence of the One who knows all about us in any case. Is it not to every advantage to have that moral change effected that I may be filled with the Person who leads into the area of eternal life?

E.C.B. The Holy Spirit does not satisfy what is according to nature or man, does He? What He satisfies is something which is according to God. “Upon man’s flesh shall it not be poured”, Exod 30: 32.

D.A.B. Is it interesting to refer to the Song of Songs where the beloved says as to the spouse that she is “A fountain in the gardens, A well of living waters, which stream from Lebanon”, chap 4: 15? I was comparing it with this section and noticing that the Lord had begun with a request for a drink, as if, while He meets this woman’s need, there is that which He is looking forward to by way of assembly response which He would secure this woman to have a part in, for His own enjoyment.

B.M.D. I think it is most affecting that meeting her need discloses a deeper, may we reverently say, a divine, need; in fact He needed to pass that way. And may we also reverently say the Father’s need in that He is seeking such as His worshippers. So that it is not a protracted period between the meeting of this moral issue and the introduction into the very greatest things of God.

A.J.E.W. Is the woman’s reference to the Lord as a prophet an indication of that?

B.M.D. It seems that way, but you have something in mind.

A.J.E.W. It just occurred to me that the woman comes to something as to Jesus which is on the way to the accomplishment of the change that you speak of. We need the prophetic touch to clarify the element of searching of which you speak. But the woman is covering ground pretty quickly, is she not, giving us an indication of the remarkable effectiveness in grace of the Lord’s activity to her?

B.M.D. Yes, it is remarkable how quickly she does cover the ground, and she is not hiding anything; in a way she displays the honest and good heart that makes way for the word of God and its penetrating effect to become fruitful in her.

C.R.B. Is the Lord’s word “become in him” of importance? She says later that the Christ had told her all things she had ever done. Would there be the searching inwardly? Does that result in a vessel in which the Spirit of God can be free to spring up?

B.M.D. I am sure of that. It “shall become in him”; it is something happening in her. Is not that wonderful in our experience, to know, as having to do with the Lord personally, that something is happening inwardly and secretly? No one else would know, but you and I know and the Lord knows.

R.T. Does that change that is happening relate to something that is eternal?—“shall never thirst for ever” and “out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”.

B.M.D. That is very fine; it is leading so quickly into the idea of change, into the change that will be permanent.

R.T. How often we go back, but in the way the Lord puts it here she would never need to go back; it changes to something that can go on.

B.M.D. “Shall never thirst for ever”: think of being in the presence of One who can satisfy the desire of everything living!

J.C.E. Why is it that the Spirit is spoken of as in the Lord’s gift here? It is not so much that He comes or will come, but the Lord says twice “the water which I shall give him”. I know you mentioned that it was a transaction, which I can understand, but is there more in it than that?

B.M.D. It is a wonderful thing that the Spirit is being administered by Christ; it is the wonder of how divine Persons operate. In a way you marvel at it; you cannot but adoringly contemplate one divine Person taking a third position and given by Christ to indwell this woman, to lift her out of all that degradation. What an advantage it is to get the whole history cleared! Why do we struggle against it so long when the greatest things are being held out to our advantage and still more for the pleasure of God?

C.B. We just need to say “give me this water”. The desire comes from the work of God, does it not? She wanted it.

B.M.D. I am sure it was an evidence of the work of God that created that desire, and no such desire voiced will every find a disappointment.

E.C.B. Is that request a sign that the change had taken place?

B.M.D. It is beginning, is it not? As our brother is saying, it “shall become in him”, something developing, and with her it is rapid. With most of us it has taken years, which is not to our credit. But the Lord is ready to lead us immediately into the greatest things connected with the service of God.

D.J.H. Is the slowness, perhaps, because we do not drink? It is “whosoever drinks of the water”.

B.M.D. Well, our slowness would be that we are not appropriating what He in such liberality is furnishing.

C R.B. Is there a sense of the urgency of divine love in the Lord’s reference later to the Father seeking worshippers? And is it the Spirit working within us to bring about something that corresponds with that?

B.M.D. I think that. There is a divine urgency. Think of the Spirit of God hovering over the whole scene, as at the beginning. What was there for God in a scene desolate and waste? So He is hovering over human hearts. Who will answer to the divine provision? Soon we will be preaching the glad tidings; in a way we are doing it now. I mean, a divine need is far greater than the sinner’s need: in a sense that is incidental. So in chapter 7 it seems to point to a change of position, that is that Christ is glorified. “The Spirit was not yet”, it says, “because Jesus had not yet been glorified”. Now we know that in this dispensation the Spirit has come from a glorified Christ, sent of the Father and the Son. It says, “the day of Pentecost was now accomplishing” (Acts 2: 1), and it is still accomplishing. I do not know what the brethren think about that.

E.C.B. The feast is not spoken of as having an end. It is presented in the Acts, as you say, that it was accomplishing; there is no indication of an end given to it there. It is a question whether we are entering into the accomplishment of what the Spirit has come for Jesus says, “I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it”, John 17: 4.

B.M.D. One thing is certain, that is that Christ is glorified and the Spirit has come; those are the facts, we might say, governing the position, and it is still accomplishing. In Deuteronomy 16 (see vv 9-12), the feast is beginning, it runs on; it gives the idea that we are still in the time of the accomplishment. I think it helps us to see that this dispensation stands in its own blessed uniqueness in a living sense, that the Spirit is here in a living, vital presence.

E.C.B. In a certain sense the end of the feast is in the Father’s time, is it not? What you are saying corresponds with what has been ministered in the past, that that feast is not presented as having an end, but it goes on. The Father’s time according to Acts 1 will bring in a complete change and a termination of what has been accomplished.

B.M.D. Yes, I think so. It seems to me as if Paul himself always had that in mind. He remained at Ephesus until Pentecost. Why does it say that? He was not just thinking of Pentecost historically. I think he was thinking of the feast being accomplished, going on.

E.C.B. Are you suggesting that the accomplishing of that feast has in view the saints arriving at what is presented in Ephesians, which does not have in view just accomplishing but arriving?

B.M.D. And a full result. The type in Genesis 24 would bear out, I think, what we are feeling after; that is, Rebecca is brought to the heavenly Man and He takes her. In type the Spirit drops out of sight, His work is complete, but that work is not complete until the assembly is replete and ready for presentation.

A.J.E.W. So it is very attractive that what is presented here shows how fully and richly the Lord is looking on to this time of the Spirit. The idea of ‘not yet’ which John brings in by the Spirit is very attractive; that is, the thing was in view—it was not yet—and what the Lord is presenting is really to call attention, is it not, to the immense fulness of this wonderful dispensation in which we are?

B.M.D. That very much helps. You might say there is a divine need, a divine longing, entering into this passage. Similarly in chapter 20, when He says “Touch me not, for I have not yet”—that is another ‘not yet’; as much as to say, you have known Me once here in the days of My flesh, but not now; there is a change. Our associations now are in another and new condition, and that condition is such that will never be shadowed by death.

T.B. ls it not interesting that Elijah says to Elisha, “if thou see me when I am taken from thee”, 2 Kings 2: 10? We have to keep our eyes open for the change, do we not?

B.M.D. That is a very telling remark which would have many bearings: keeping our eyes open, and the eyes of our hearts open, too. You would have more in mind.

T.B. It impressed me as this scripture was read, as to the importance of what flows from Elijah’s ministry through Elisha. He is in the gain, as we might say, of the risen man.

B.M.D. Elisha’s ministry points to the time of the Spirit and it corresponds with the very moment we are now in. It greatly helps, in reading that prophet, to realise that it bears upon the time of the Spirit.

E.P. Is it right to think that the resurrection of Christ would be the resolution absolutely of the moral question you spoke about in John 4? But does His being glorified open up a sphere of things that we may enter because He is there and the Spirit is on our side to make it so?

B.M.D. That is exactly the truth as I understand it. We can enter it now by the Spirit because He is the earnest of our inheritance; but He is also the means if the brethren will accept that word, of our presently entering it actually. I just wonder whether it sufficiently affects us that the imminence of that is at our doors.

E.P. I wonder why we get held up. Some of us get held up, or have been held up, and I wondered whether we might see what scope the Spirit has consequent upon the place that Christ has.

B.M.D. Yes. I think we should hasten to what you are saying, because that is Numbers 21, and my own feeling is that the Lord helped us to reach that point maybe nearly thirty years ago. I would be very careful what I say, as we are only feeling our way enquiringly and I would value what the brethren say. What should impress us in John 20 is that there is a change of position and condition with the Lord. What they saw in that empty tomb must have been exceedingly impressive, that there was something absolutely different, that a great change had been effected and He was absent; there was no disorder, the handkerchief that was upon His head was not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a distinct place by itself. What does that mean if it does not point to order and completeness in what was effected? He is not there, He is about to ascend, a living Person, having removed for ever the condition that was governed by death, that is in us, assuring this beloved woman that she would no longer know Him or touch Him as she once had. “If even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer”, 2 Cor 5: 16. He is really assuring her that her association with Him was now in another scene altogether.

C.R.B. Would this be the experience of new creation?

B.M.D. I think it is leading quickly into the sphere of new creation. I am glad you said that because that also should quicken a holy desire to touch what belongs to new creation, where—

Sin-soiled feed have never trod

(Hymn 206).

C.R.B. Do you think it is to bring into our hearts some deeper appreciation of the wonder of the service of the Spirit, that He can, at the present time, bring us into the experience in reality of a sphere of new creation?

B.M.D. I think that. I believe, if in greater depth we entered into these things we are speaking about, it would help us now in how we address Him rightly, worshipfully, in the service, giving us greater depth and scope, because what scope enters into His service and into His operations, still more the blessedness of who He is in His Person.

D.A.B. You said yesterday that Christian experience is really on the level of a man in Christ. Paul says “if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”, 2 Cor 5: 17. Does it help us to see the level on which Christian experience is properly viewed, lifting our minds from many lower things that we tend to engage them with?

B.M.D. I think there is great importance in that. I would not attempt to explain it but to know a man in Christ is needed to understand Christianity. I think I can see that you look at things from the top. That experience that Paul had, I suppose, was special, whether he was in the body or out of the body he could not tell, such a one caught up to the third heaven; then he said it was paradise and he heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter (see 2 Cor 12: 2-4). It must have left an abiding impression that would have coloured his ministry.

D.A.B. When he refers to paradise, does he suggest that it is not only being in Christ but being with Him? The Lord says “with me in paradise”, Luke 23: 43. We have the sense, as Paul says in Ephesians 3: 19, “to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge”. We are in contact with that Person Himself, are we not, in that sphere of things?

B.M.D. So it opens up a sphere available to all of us; that is, the secret side of that holy intimacy that is untouched and unaffected by circumstances. I would not care to say too much—it is easy to say those things—but I believe what you say is the truth, that it is something that we each should be concerned about, to find an inward communion that is unaffected by circumstances. In a way we see things then in a perspective as heaven sees them. We are out of all the turmoil and trouble. Maybe I am only speaking abstractly, but I believe it is open to us in the Spirit to touch such a realm that is not affected by all the turmoil that is going on.

E.P. Does not Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 contrast that spiritual order of things with the natural? And do you think the Holy Spirit would serve us that we might get a bit more liberated from the natural to enjoy the spiritual?

B.M.D. Yes. Well, He does not set that aside, does He? In fact the more spiritual a man is the more able he is to take up the natural and, you might say, enjoy it as is perfectly right. We remember that conflict over being dead to nature; that is, of course, a lot of nonsense.

D.J.H. That seems to be, as you said, what is in view here in John 20. And it seems that it is that inward link even with Mary that comes to light. He says to her ‘Mary’ and she turning round says ‘Rabboni’. It seems that there is a link there which is above the sorrow and all that had previously oppressed her spirit.

B.M.D. She still feels the need of the Teacher, but a teaching in the sphere of intimacy. Then the remarkable quality of devotion in this woman should affect us all. She in full feminine affection and subjection is able to answer to this new position that the Lord is presenting. She is not fully intelligent yet; she apparently would have touched Him as she once had, but she is quickly amenable to her Rabboni.

A.J.E.W. Could I come back to your point of communion? The Lord says here “as the Father sent me forth, I also send you”. The sending forth of the Son by the Father was accompanied by the constantly sustained intimacy of communication between the Father and the Son, and the Son and the Father. It was not just, you might say, the imparting of a commission, it was something far, far more than that. Now does not the Lord’s word, “I also send you”, involve a level of sending which brings in the side of constant, could I use the word, intercommunication in the way of communion?

B.M.D. Yes. Think of the Lord in John 11 when that voice came! He says “I knew that thou always hearest me”, v 42. There was perfect, unbroken communion between Himself and the Father, and yet He as Man feeling the pressure of death that was upon humanity. I believe this is probably the most precious food we can feed on, food that will lead us into what will sustain us in the troublous times we are in.

C.R.B. Is that why the Lord breathes into them before he says, “Receive the Holy Spirit”?

B.M.D. Yes, I wondered if there was a link with that. The intimate side would be in His breath—nearness, is it not? It is not the formal side. I suppose it links with Pentecost in its actuality, but it brings out the warmth of such nearness.

C.R.B. And to bring into them, would you say, something of His own feelings in relation to the Father, the feelings of that Man, the Son, in relation to the Father.

B.M.D. It seems as if He is urgent to open that up. I mean the way He speaks of His ascending and His opening up the great truths of the Father and God: you can see there is a great ocean of things ready to be unfolded as we are ready. I think there might be a touch of that in the fact that the handkerchief was folded up in a distinct place by itself. What would you say about that?

C.R.B. I do not know. You have some impression though.

B.M.D. My impression is that it awaited the Spirit. I think the unfolding of His headship awaited the time of the assembly.

C.R.B. Is it related to Jesus being glorified and the opening up of the truth of it awaiting Paul’s ministry?

B.M.D. That is what I thought; it awaited Paul. What would you say as to that?

R.T. I think what you say is good as to a distinct place by itself. It connects very much with Paul because he was not connected with the twelve, but he was brought in as commissioned from Christ in glory.

B.M.D. That is very confirming.

E.C.B. I am sure that the headship of Christ, in the sense in which we speak of it, is related to His being glorified and the Spirit coming. 2 Corinthians 5 has been referred to already; I was wondering whether this folding up of the garments and of the handkerchief does not bear on Christ after the flesh known no longer. And in that setting Paul says remarkably, and even prior to that, he knows “no one according to flesh”, v 16. Then he goes on to new creation.

B.M.D. Yes. They must have got the point of it in John 20 because it then says in verse 8: “Then entered in therefore the other disciple also who came first to the tomb, and he saw and believed”. What did he see? What did he believe? I believe just what you said.

E.C.B. That is a very interesting thing because they do not really appear to have entered into the tomb as a place of death; they really entered into it as a place of triumph.

B.M.D. Yes, and therefore they would have been filled with the spirit of expectation. While, alas, they two went to their own home, this woman does not, and she represents a true subjective answer that the Lord is looking for; and to her He unfolds this wonderful secret connected with the ascension.

E.C.B. Our real learning can only be in communion, can it not?

B.M.D. I believe that.

E.C.B. I think Mr Stoney said that the natural mind is useful only for repeating what it has learned, but the actual learning is in communion.

B.M.D. I think that is very salutary. Of course, we do repeat a lot, but perhaps we quote too much. It is best to quote ourselves. If we have made it good in our own souls we can quote it with confidence.

B.W.W. You referred earlier to Genesis 24. Would there be a connection with that and what you have said as to the handkerchief and the unfolding of it?

B.M.D. Yes, I would think so because Isaac, as we know, is a type of the heavenly Man; there is no record of his coming back after they went up the mount. So it would be our links with Christ where He is. Our Head is in heaven; that is indeed the distinctive light that governed the beginning of this recovery. The Head is in heaven, so the body must be here, and that position has not altered. It will not; it will be like that until the actual change. And, dear brethren, that actual change is near.

B.W.W. It says at the end of that chapter that “the servant told Isaac all things that he had done”. That would be a very comprehensive telling, recounting, would it not, if we relate it to the actual service of the Spirit of God through the dispensation?

B.M.D. It certainly would; and as He brings out the treasures of His master I think He would just drop a few around in a meeting like this. They are inexhaustible.

R.T. When Mary goes to the disciples, the first thing she says is “she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things”. It would emphasise what you were saying about communion, the things take on their character because she had seen Him.

B.M.D. Yes, that was her distinct impression. What she had she received from Him. And you cannot shake a person who has something direct from Christ.

E.C.B. To refer again to your remark about Pentecost, 1 Corinthians 16 to which you referred, Paul, staying at Ephesus till Pentecost, says “a great door is opened to me and an effectual one”. Is that what you would suggest we need to be coming into in the accomplishing of the day?

B.M.D. And in a certain sense stay there. He said he is staying there; he did not go to Corinth, he wrote from Ephesus right from outside of all the mists of the battle. No general would conduct his battle from the ranks, he would not know what was going on, all he would see was dust, I suppose. He conducts it from a point of vantage. And Paul says I am staying at Ephesus, there is a door open to me, and it is effectual. But then he adds something else—“the adversaries many”—and we might as well be on our guard because there will be plenty of adversaries. As we are committed to the heavenly line we should be on our guard because the devil is out to lower the standard.

E.C.B. What you draw attention to as to “the adversaries many” is interesting because in Ephesians Paul speaks about spiritual wickedness in heavenly places which is against us, but he points to the armour against it.

B.M.D. Yes; well, he fought with beasts there too. Maybe we have seen in recent times a little of that character, not that we want to be engaged with that now, but it is only to alert us to be on our guard and the more committed to the heavenly light to which we have been recovered.

W.J.R.B. ls that why it speaks of combat in Colossians? It was no small matter, it was not just prayer, was it?

B.M.D. Nor is the present combat a small matter. Thank God for the power meeting of Monday night. How we need it and value it! We are in times when the enemy is attempting to spoil the finish. He cannot touch Christ glorified, he cannot touch the precious work of redemption; but, as he sees Christ here in testimony, that arouses him to attack. Now let us see that Christ is here in testimony—“so also is the Christ”, 1 Cor 12: 12. The Spirit will maintain that living testimony of the Christ in that anointed vessel until we are taken above.

C.R.B. The expectation of the Lord coming today would bring great urgency into this matter of change and movement, would it not? It is not a matter of what we may do tomorrow or next week. It is a matter of change and movement in the Spirit today, is it not?

B.M.D. Momentarily we should be expecting it. So is it not then right to become accustomed to spiritual change? What can happen in a meeting! More happens here than anywhere else, does it not?

A.J.E.W. Genesis 24 has been quoted. It is interesting how Rebecca had said “Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us?” (v 65); that is, she was alert for the man, and that, surely, is part of what we are saying. Are we alert for the Man who is to receive all this for the delight of His own heart?

B.M.D. Yes. What communion she must have enjoyed! What treasures must have been unfolded! The Spirit leads to Christ; all true ministry leads to Christ. If a minister does not lead to Christ he is not a minister.

T.J.B. Do you think that there should be a responsive state that is able to move in response to divine promptings, the promptings of Christ? We speak about discerning His voice, but then do you think we need the side of responsiveness, too, so that some effect in movement is produced? I thought that would link with Numbers 21 where what is responsive is in view.

B.M.D. Yes, we should go on to that scripture. In Genesis 24 there was the response in her springing off the camels, response in the energy and power of life. But then it does not say that Isaac saw Rebecca, but he saw the camels coming, he saw the means of her transport. But perhaps our subject is getting too big for us. If the brethren think well, can we go to Numbers? I would very much like the brethren’s feelings as to this, but my own are that we were led to this, if we can speak simply, at almost the close of beloved Mr Taylor’s ministry. Why did we not go in? There was another voice. The death of Aaron comes a little earlier, that is the official side of things changed, and the death of Miriam, a kind of mysterious, protective element. She died and Moses is told he will not go into the land, that is, the authoritative side, so important and to be retained, but it was not authority that was going to take them into the land. Mr Taylor referred to another voice, vol 52 p153. That would be, would it not, the Spirit’s voice, and the well comes in just at this point: “Rise up, well! sing unto it”. There is a response to the springing up of the Spirit. Now it would be amongst the brethren. Why, dear brethren, were we not ready to go in?

W.J.W. So whilst we are looking for the Lord we do not want to overlook the glory of the present moment. It is the time of the Spirit, and it is this living response that our brother refers to that the Lord is looking for in the meantime, this rising up. In Genesis the wells kept getting stopped up, did they not?

B.M.D. Yes, with earth, and there is still a great danger of earthly-mindedness and wealth; and the world is always knocking on the door. We need to be on our guard; it will rob us of the joy of the finish; compromise is always close. Dear brethren, we cannot lower the divine standard.

W.J.R.B. One of the major attacks on Mr Taylor’s ministry was against ‘Wells and Springs’ (vol 52), was it not?

B.M.D. Yes. These things have significance because the enemy saw their import. Now it would be that the Spirit of God would lead us back, because we did an awful detour. At least I perhaps should speak for myself. Instead of going forward there were these two big kings that rose up; I suppose they are still around a bit, alas! They have to be slain. Then there was a brilliant ministry that had the element of what was prophetic in it but it led to corruption. Do you follow?

E.C.B. Just as in this part of the history of Israel.

B.M.D. Yes, at this point when, you might say, they were poised to enter the land. As I say, it is not authority that gets us into heaven, it is attraction and it is affection. Now I am not weakening authority, in no way would we do that, but it is when you see the ark, go after it.

R.T. ls taking on and maintaining royalty important—the princes digging and the nobles? We fell from sonship and royalty in these things you have spoken of, but the Spirit would maintain this royalty and dignity among us in view of dwelling conditions and the singing.

B.M.D. Do you agree with what I just remarked a moment ago?

R.T. Very much so. I thought that now perhaps we come to the top of Pisgah. We can look back and have another view of these things and we can see right into the land.

B.M.D. Yes, that is good. We should perhaps just get there and we could close the meeting: to have a sober, humble review of what happened over the surface of the waste, not to become occupied with it, because that is depressing, but to learn its lessons through self-judgment and gather up the fruits of the battles of the Lord. And now are we ready, under the Spirit’s voice and guiding, to be directed to the Ark?

A.J.E.W. It is very noticeable that whilst the word of the lawgiver is, in a certain sense, an initiation of things, the lawgiver does not dig the well; it is the princes and the nobles of the people.

B.M.D. That is very fine, and thank God for them! Let us keep close to those accredited ministries. Is it all right to say that? They are accredited ministries; we can trust them. And the precious truth has been unfolded and recovered, or rather we recovered to it, through them, and it is reliable, it has been hollowed out through deep, intense exercise. I mean, these men laboured feelingly, with tears, to bring about an answer. There was much that had to be hollowed out: do we not know it? Let us maintain in fidelity what was reached through those beloved men. But now movement is in mind.

T.B. I have been thinking quite a bit, since you have been speaking, as to the importance of quickening. Would that come in? “The Spirit quickens”, 2 Cor 3: 6. Do we need to be more ready for that?

B.M.D. I think it could happen in this meeting. Each of the Persons quickens.

T.J.B. So it is not here so much a question of drawing water but “I will give them water”. It is the well rising up.

B.M.D. Yes; it means an inward response; there is a subjective answer rising up in the people that is ready for movement. So I just soberly ask the question, because we each have to search ourselves as to why we were not ready. And would not the Lord bring us back now, as learning those lessons, looking back over the surface of the waste, with the anguish and sorrows that each one of us here carry? Oh, let us learn those lessons and get back. And now where is the Spirit’s voice? It is another voice. I do not think we have ever been in a time that calls for such sensitivity.

E.C.B. After the prophecies of Balaam and the consequences amongst the people of their being taught fornication, and the number of people who died in the plague is stated, immediately you get Israel numbered in view of the land, and the daughters of Zelophehad. Is that what is to be looked for subjectively?

B.M.D. Yes, I believe that is something we could well leave with one another to look into in that section that follows, and particularly the daughters of Zelophehad who valued the inheritance above all else and had a judgment that their father died in his own sin. Their view from Pisgah was accurate; they had a true moral judgment, but their heart was in the land.

E.C.B. In one of Balaam’s parables he goes to the top of Pisgah, the watchmen’s field, see Num 23: 14. Is not that where we should be, in the watchmen’s field?

B.M.D. I think so; that is most significant.

LONDON

19^th July 1981

Key to initials

C.Beale; W.J.R.Brodie, Ealing; T.Broughton, Richmond; D.A.Burr; E.C.Burr; T.J.Burr; C.R.Byng; B.M.Deck, Motueka; J.C.Evershed; D.J.Hutson; E.Palmer; R.Taylor, Barnet; B.W.Ward; A.J.E.Welch; W.J.Woolley

all local unless otherwise stated

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