BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT
B.M.D. Some of us have been occupied recently a little with the Spirit and His service. “He therefore who ministers to you the Spirit” is in the Galatian epistle, as we know (chap 3: 5), which administration I suppose would include His being sent from heaven by the Father and the Son. It would also involve His right to act on His own account, as we get in Acts 10, and in chapter 19 too (although Paul’s hands come into that, which we would not have now). It occurred to me, dear brethren, that we might get help now to enquire a little as to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John introduces it in the section we read. He says “I baptise with water. In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know”, and then he adds in verse 33: “he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit”. I thought there would be a direct link with 1 Corinthians 12, where we come into what is already established, as it was at Pentecost; but we should perhaps see that that teaching comes in in a corrective epistle, that is, Paul is meeting conditions. As we know, in chapter 11 he brings in the Supper as meeting certain disorder; what they were doing was not the Supper at all. In the chapter where we read he seems to bring in the organism of the body to encourage spiritual manifestations of which they seemed to be ignorant. That would be abnormal, as in the early days of Samuel when the word of Jehovah was rare and a vision was not frequent, see 1 Sam 3: 1. Then in chapter 14 he brings in the power of the prophetic word. I thought that in that connection it would be helpful to keep in our minds the section read in 1 Samuel 19, where a remarkable matter was proceeding that was a check on evil—a company of prophets, with a certain mysterious working that influenced others for good. David was anointed but not yet crowned, the wrong king was on the throne, and that ensuing struggle, as we all have learned alas! in days gone by in our local meetings and between meetings, is a very searching matter. I trust it is such now that never has to be named amongst us. But what comes out is that there is something happening amidst that struggle that is a check on evil, and it is an influence for good, so that even Saul is affected though not changed. Indeed he is exposed, he “lay down naked all... that night”, it says. I thought that it would be something to enquire into, not exactly the doctrine, of which I guess we would know a little, but how it works out in practice, that there is something operating in the power of the Spirit that will maintain the good and overcome evil, that will overcome evil with good.
A.J.E.W. Would you tell us why you feel the baptism of the Spirit has such a distinctive place in John the baptist’s service at this point?
B.M.D. His service would lead to it, would it not? He clearly says “he it is” (that is referring to Christ) “who baptises with ... Holy Spirit”. He shall baptise with water”; so that the line of John the baptist, the prophet who comes in suddenly as in this gospel, brings in a very strong preparation in view of what is to proceed as under Christ.
E.M.W. That is interesting, because the baptism of the Spirit would direct to Christ rather than call attention to his own person.
B.M.D. I think we should see that. It is necessary, of course, to understand the import of John’s service because baptism by water is that we are submerged. We go out of sight in that type, and we can hardly be in the merging of the Spirit if we are not submerged first. Is that so?
E.M.W. I am sure it is. Is that the reason for the introduction of the fire, too? It is a question of the total extinction of man in the flesh. I judge you have that in mind.
B.M.D. Yes, that is exactly the teaching which we should understand, that in what is to be introduced in Christ’s body, the anointed vessel here—“so also is the Christ”—there cannot be any trace whatever of the flesh or what marks the first man. So it is healthy and right for us to face the somewhat rigorous ministry of the prophet John the baptist.
E.C.B. Does his ministry and the baptism of water have in mind largely what we speak of as negative, whereas the baptism with the Spirit is positive?
B.M.D. It leads into that, does it not? I can see a real danger of accepting the negative side and being left without an object for the affections. That is why I ventured to read on down, to see that those who followed the lord through the effective ministry of John the baptist found an object, and found where He dwelt.
E.C.B. I think that what you have said is very important, that we might pursue what is negative (and in a certain sense the flesh can even like the negative because it ministers to legality), but to be left without an object for the affections is really then to be destitute, is it not?
B.M.D. I think it is a very dangerous position to be in, a vulnerable position, which the enemy will not fail to exploit to our sorrow. Have we not found it so? It is like the house that was swept but unoccupied—a very dangerous position! How wonderful to look round today and think of every heart here as a dwelling place for Christ!
A.J.E.W. Is John’s unique experience of import? He bears witness of it; “I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven”. That marks off the Spirit distinctly and personally in John’s mind and understanding. “And it abode upon him”; that is, this must have been a wonderful transaction of soul for John; but it ends up in calling attention to Jesus: “it abode upon him”. That is the conclusion that he reaches.
B.M.D. What an experience! to see one divine Person coming upon Another, if we can speak with deepest reverence. It almost seems as if John is held in rightful awe, if we can thus speak, of such an operation, because he says twice here “And I knew him not”. What does he mean by that?
E.M.W. You mean that he must have known Him as naturally akin to him, but there is something deeper hidden in what John says.
B.M.D. I believe so. I believe he was consciously in the presence of what he knew to be infinite. For instance: “no one knows the Son but the Father”, Matt 11: 27. There is an infinitude that is beyond creature knowledge, which should ever command our deepest reverence and respect, and indeed our worship. I just say that because it is the same Spirit who is with us now, and we need to be careful and fearful in His presence, and we need one another to speak what is right in His presence, to speak of Him rightly.
E.C.M. Is there some significance in what he says: “These things took place in Bethany, across the Jordan, where John was baptising”? Linking on with what was pointed out as to the positive side and our attachment to His Person, does it not lead to what is beyond the Jordan?
B.M.D. That is the whole matter. We find Christ as an object. Can we rest until we are where He is and find out where He dwells? Does He not take particular interest in those who follow Him? “What seek ye? ... Come and see”. This is open to every one that loves Him. But we should not too quickly pass over the other side of what was referred to, because the baptism of John is, you might say, foundational. Later in this gospel it says there was plenty of water where he was baptising, and thank God there is still plenty of water to get thoroughly submerged, because we will not get merged until we are submerged.
C.J.H.D. The object for affection is found in Acts 19, where the men have known John’s baptism, but they are baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus which is the affectionate assembly title for Him, and immediately the Holy Spirit comes upon them.
B.M.D. It is amazing that they had not heard whether the Spirit had come, because, as we get here, John speaks extensively of the Spirit; but Paul says “To what then were ye baptised? And they said, To the baptism of John”. The foundational side at any rate was established, and Paul then immediately brings them into what our brother says is the positive side. And that was Ephesus, was it not? So it is leading us right into heaven.
C.R.B. Is there a spirit of worship as John says “because he was before me”?
B.M.D. Yes, I am sure it would strengthen what we are saying. I think John is held in a profound sense of the greatness of what he has witnessed, and should we not be as we think of this dispensation extending? I understand that the feast of weeks extended; in a certain sense it still continues. Deuteronomy does not put a limit on the feast, and in a certain sense it is still accomplishing; we are still in the time of the Spirit.
C.R.B. There is what is infinite about the understanding that “he was before me”; you can never exhaust that. But it is a matter for wonder, too, is it not, that John can go on to witness “that this is the Son of God”? Do not those references show the need for both baptisms?
B.M.D. Yes. That could be the light coming into this dear man’s soul as he is occupied with this profound event: “I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode “upon him” in perfect complacency; in a total sense He abode upon that Person who is the Son of God.
D.J.H. What you say as to how quickly this light came is interesting; it seems that that would be normal in that he refers in verse 33 to his baptising with water, but in the same verse refers to baptising with the Holy Spirit. I was thinking of what you said earlier, that there is not to be any time lag between the negative having been dealt with and then immediately moving on into the positive.
B.M.D. I think what you are saying is strengthening what we were saying a while ago. It is a very dangerous period if it finds any of us without an object, and that object is the Son of God. You see the same thing in chapter 9 where the man was cast out and there he was. Think of it! but he clung to one thing and the Lord found him, and he found in Him an object. That man was safe. He was ready for chapter 10.
E.C.B. According to the synoptic gospels John would have heard the voice saying “This is my beloved Son” (Matt 3: 17) or “Thou art my beloved Son”, Mark 1: 11; Luke 3: 22. Here there is no such voice but he seems to come to a conclusion in himself as to the Son of God.
B.M.D. Yes, and in looking at Jesus as He walked; and then the earlier verse: “On the morrow he sees Jesus coming to him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”. It is what he is observing, is it not? It seems a deeper thing than what is just superficial. It is the knowledge of the Son of God.
E.C.B. Do you think we need power to draw conclusions from the activity of the Spirit as to the glory of the person of Jesus?
B.M.D. We do, and that would develop a desire to find out where He abides.
A.C.C. Is there a difference between the baptism of the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit? I wondered whether being filled with the Spirit was more an individual exercise, but the baptism was to baptise the saints into one body, merge them together into one body. Is that right?
B.M.D. I think the word you use is just the word to use; it is a merging into one whole, into a vessel, an anointed vessel here; “so also is the Christ”. Think of the glory of so many being merged by that baptism into that vessel! Really, that is what it is all about; it is Christ here. Christ up there: thank God, what an object, a centre for us! But what is down here in testimony has appeared in that anointed vessel. That as what the conflict is all about, to maintain that expression of Christ here in testimony.
A.J.E.W. So that the unity, which is named as “the unity of the Spirit” (Eph 4: 3), is to be kept.
B.M.D. That is very good. I think it involves our affections, the closeness of our bond as merged; and it really takes us to 1 Corinthians where you get the distinctions of gifts and the same Spirit. In fact the Trinity is interwoven in that vessel. I think we should go on to that but just get a touch as to this: it says, “They went therefore, and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day”. I would just suggest, dear brethren, that that is normal to Christianity.
D.E.R. It is a very blessed thing to know the Lord in our circumstances—piety would help us as to that—but how much more blessed to be with the Lord in relation to His circumstances and His house, His affairs. Is your exercise that we should understand that the baptism of the Spirit would help us into that?
B.M.D. I believe so. I suppose this is the individual side, but it is leading into the merging into a vessel. I believe, from my own simple observation, that that is where we need so much help. I do not think we can be merged consciously and intelligently and affectionately into that vessel unless we have found Him as a sole object for our affections.
P.S.W. You referred to the anointed vessel: how would the baptism of the Spirit relate to what we speak of as the anointing of the Spirit?
B.M.D. Mr Clapham was referring to a similar line of things. I think it would run very closely, only the baptism seems to stress the idea of being merged into a vessel. The anointing would be in view of its function, I suppose. Have you something in your mind?
P.S.W. I think what you said as to the merging in the vessel is most important, but the vessel is to function and for that the anointing of the Spirit is in evidence.
B.M.D. Well, that is it. In 1 Corinthians 12 we get “But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are distinctions of services, and the same Lord; and the same distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates all things in all”. You can see how the Trinity is entering into it (I do not know the word to use, it is more than putting its stamp on it, that would not be enough; it is interwoven). What would be the word to use?
E.C.B. I think we would understand the word ‘interwoven’. What you have in mind is in a sense the Trinity in relation to the body, which is formed by the baptism with the Spirit.
B.M.D. The impress of the Trinity would be inter-woven in this marvellous organism which we speak of as the body of Christ. Similarly it will come out in the display of the city coming down, which is said to have the glory of God, see Rev 21: 10. It is a luminous vessel. It is more than a reflection; a substantial formation in which the attributes of God will shine.
E.C.B. The scripture is quoted in different ways, but the word the scripture uses is ‘with’: “baptises with the Holy Spirit”, meaning, as Mr Darby interprets, ‘in the power of’. It is not exactly ‘baptism of the Spirit’, it is “with”.
B.M.D. That is right.
E.C.B. Involving His power, as if He is the means to a divine end.
R.T. Does that involve the dignity that the Spirit brings with Him, that is superior to everything else? ‘Baptised with’ implies the idea of resource and a dignity that has come in that should impress us, that we do not resort to the level of other thinking and other ways, but we are maintained in this dignity. It is interesting that often it says that He came from heaven.
B.M.D. He certainly did. He came from heaven, and He was sent from heaven, and He brings the dignity of heaven with Him. If we could just get an impression of that today, the dignity of this vessel in the light of which we seek humbly to walk. Its expression can be found even in the twos and threes. We should keep in mind that Paul in this corrective area is bringing this forward with design to meet certain conditions.
J.M. It helps us to see the assembly as entirely outside of, having no reference to, any human organisation whatsoever. It is entirely of God, is it not? “The assembly of God ... in Corinth”, chap 1: 2. This is the way in which we practically come to that.
B.M.D. If we understood that, it would meet every question of separation. We would not need a rule book any more. Really it comes from within. We tried it the other way and it did not work. Separation stems from my attachment to the Son of God. Do you agree with that?
J.M. It bears on what was just said, that there is a certain dignity about the assembly, the tremendous resource that it has as able to represent God and act for God in any circumstance in which it finds itself. I think baptised in the power of the Spirit into one body helps us to see that it is entirely independent of human resources.
B.M.D. So you can get a Jew and a Greek perfectly merged. Could any human recipe do that?—bond or free, direct opposites naturally. I suppose we are, many of us, awkward sort of people, but the power, the dignity of this that our brother refers to, can merge us into a vessel which is the expression of Christ here; no, more than that, it is Christ here.
D.J.H. In referring to what is corrective, would it be right to say that no correction or adjustment has less in mind than this as an object?
B.M.D. I believe we do not understand the truth properly unless we look at it in its normality. Things were not normal practically in Corinth as we know. Therefore Paul brings forward the truth in its normality to bring about the adjustment. You do not help a person by telling them what they are not. The teaching remains and we must approach things from the top.
E.P. Is it right to say that the teaching, and particularly this section, is in view of experience? If it is just teaching, we might be informed, but do you think the reality of the Spirit’s presence brings us into the experience together?
B.M.D. We certainly need the teaching; to persevere in the doctrine is most important, but if it does not lead into the experience, what is its worth? In a way a tremendous responsibility rests on us because of the light to which we have been recovered, and unless we hold it in the energy of life, maybe we should be better without it. That may be a bit strong, but you get the point, as following what you are saying.
E.P. I was thinking too of what you said earlier about baptism—baptism is not teaching exactly, it is an experience. We have to have the teaching, but then it is to lead to the experience and the experience is a very real thing.
B.M.D. Not many of us remember the literal thing because we were baptised when we were babes in the faith of our parents. Thank God for it! We need the teaching, particularly our younger brethren, as to what was done in the faith of their parents. It is teaching that leads to intelligent and affectionate committal to the place of experience.
A.J.E.W. It is interesting that he returns in the first verse of chapter 14 to spiritual manifestations. That seems to confirm the point of experience that we are at; he is filling in the essential teaching, leading on in chapter 13 to the reality of active affection; but the first verse of chapter 14 shows what is really in the back of his mind, that there should be spiritual manifestations.
B.M.D. That is right. In chapter 13, “but have not love”: he is scathing in what he says when there is no love. “Let all things ye do be done in love”, chap 16: 14. It would be normal to the operations. First of all there is “distinctions of gifts”. This is not exactly the gifts as set in the assembly. We would understand that separately, would we not? These gifts would be the impression of Christ that each has, and each one essential as merged into the body to form the vessel. And that impress is by the Spirit. Your impression is not mine, mine is not yours, but we perfectly fit into the anointed vessel. What myriads there will be, with their own distinct personalities and impress of Christ, that will fill out that wonderful vessel.
R.D.P. Is there a certain widening out in those three things, the gifts, the services and the operations? Do you think that we do not want to miss that today, beginning with what you said but widening out to the operations?
B.M.D. Well, the services are under the Lord, that is the second one, the things to be done, and the services are under the Lord, under Christ. The operations would be the Father; He is presiding over all; He is in that position of supremacy and presiding. What operations there are!
C.R.B. Are you distinguishing between the gifts in verse 4 and what God sets in the assembly in verse 28?
B.M.D. Not exactly, but in the setting in which they are presented here it seems as if there is the perfect merging into the one vessel of those gifts. But then the gifts are sent from an ascended Christ, and their service is far wider than Corinth or what is local; they are set in the assembly, not in the body, as we well know. That would seem to be the Lord’s own prerogative to do that, but I suppose the impress of Christ in the gift would be the same. Is that as you understand it?
C.R.B. That is very interesting. So that these references from verse 4 onwards, including the manifestation of the Spirit to each, and so on, are to help us all to merge in the body as understanding the distinction of each and yet merging as a result of that.
B.M.D. That is what I thought. The exercise of gift as set in the assembly is to produce it, because that is extended in the Ephesian letter.
E.C.B. In the scripture in John 1, when they went to see where He abode, they say “We have found the ... Christ”. Do you think, transferring the expression to Christianity and Paul’s teaching, Paul is seeking to help the Corinthians to find the Christ?
B.M.D. And now he is helping us; and we find the Christ in a meeting like this. Something comes in, you might say almost unexpectedly, maybe from a quarter we did not expect, something happens in a meeting. You know what it is. And you say to yourself, That is the assembly. It could be in any meeting as we gather in the light of the assembly. I believe as we are exercised for a spiritual manifestation the blessed Spirit will not fail to furnish it.
E.C.B. So that, as you said, this chapter is in a corrective setting itself, but “so also is the Christ” is something treasured in Paul’s heart in relation to the local assembly.
B.M.D. I think so. Paul must have had a very distinct impress of this; that would have entered particularly into his gift, and he labours to produce of its kind.
E.C.B. You remarked, in regard to the gifts and the services and the operations, as to the Trinity being closely involved with them all. Paul then goes on, as it were to concentrate his remarks on the Spirit. From verse 7 it is “the Spirit”, “the Spirit”, “the same Spirit”, “the Spirit”, “the Spirit”, and so on, as if the recognition of the Spirit in the Trinity is essential for arriving at what you have in mind.
B.M.D. Ten or eleven times the Spirit is mentioned in that section, and that would not be without some significance, that what is proceeding now is in the power of the same Spirit. I think it particularly works in a meeting like this temple-wise, when we are sensitive to one another. In a way we need to try to learn to listen as we speak.
C.R.B. Is it the functioning of the body that preserves the spirit of enquiry in the temple?
B.M.D. I am sure it would. I think that is very helpful. It maintains a sensitive spirit of enquiry.
J.M. You said that the gifts are set in the assembly; I think Mr J Taylor said that is to stress the administrative character of the vessel. But do you not think that the truth of the body as underlying that is the great preservation against anything that is official?
B.M.D. I do not think a gift could operate intelligently or rightly or effectively without that sensitive, feeling knowledge of what the body involves. That would preclude popular evangelism. Not that we discredit any one; we thank God for those who preach the gospel, and thank God for souls being saved, but let us cleave to the foundation, the anointed vessel that is Christ here. That is somewhere that souls can be led to, where they can find their life and satisfaction in normal Christianity. Publicly it is not normal; we have just to hang our heads as to that. Oh, how humble we need to be! We cannot look at the breakdown at a distance as we used to perhaps. We are it. Some of us have to say, I am it. We cannot escape it. Nevertheless the light of the precious truth of the assembly remains and hades’ gates will not prevail against it.
E.M.W. If we have the function of the body in our localities, is it not just that that sets free the gifts that the Lord has given? I am thinking of the atmosphere necessary in order that gifts that the Lord has given might be free in their operation to nourish the body, but if the body is not functioning in our localities it seems to me it would hamper the exercise of gift.
B.M.D. Antioch?
E.M.W. Now you open that up, please.
B.M.D. I would think there were very fine conditions in that local assembly. Would you not think so? In the way the names are given, with Saul at the bottom of the list, there is a perfect merging in affection; but then the Spirit speaks: “Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them”, Acts 13: 2. It would be exactly what you are saying, would it not? It is in that background of normal assembly life that the services proceed, but we must remember that the gifts function as under Christ directly.
E.M.W. Antioch is a good scriptural illustration of it. Do you think it is possible to reach these conditions today?
B.M.D. I will turn that back on you.
E.M.W. Well, I can only quote Mr Raven’s axiom, that what has been is an evidence that it can be.
B.M.D. That is very encouraging. I think really we could stop at that, because we could not get any further than that. It will give us an incentive to reach something that answers by way of experience to what the assembly means as an organism.
E.C.B. Some of what we have been taught as to the characteristics of a remnant would help us in the public condition you remark on, would it not? We do not speak of a remnant of the assembly, but the remnant is that in which are treasured all the characteristics of what belonged to the whole, and what belonged to its best day.
B.M.D. Yes, the whole idea of the assembly is cherished by assembly-minded persons, though it may only be “two of you”, Matt 18: 19.
C.J.H.D. In that connection, is the expression in verse 11 very attractive—“the one and the same Spirit”? Paul says elsewhere “if ... ye get a different Spirit”, 2 Cor 11: 4. It is the same Spirit that descended on Jesus, and therefore the same results of His power must be in evidence today, must they not? They can be.
B.M.D. That all tends towards this idea of organic oneness—the same Spirit. In a certain sense it is His Spirit. I know it is getting back to the individual again, but “he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit”, 1 Cor 6: 17. That is earlier in the same epistle, where again the apostle is meeting a moral condition. It is important, since you brought it up, that it should just be referred to, because “he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit”. That precludes any immoral link. He is dealing with fornication, and in the day we are in, with the dreadful lowering of moral standards, we do well to exhort one another that the lifeline to preserve us is “he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit”. But then to stay that way—yes, but such are merged to find life and enjoyment in that vessel. That is why that section in Samuel seems somewhat to fit in to what we are saying. Persons are affected in spite of themselves. It brings us again to the thing operating; it is in function mysteriously. How did it happen, this company of prophets? There is no apparent arrangement, although it says Samuel presided over them, which would be a certain authority, I suppose, and control. David is with Samuel, and then these messengers are sent three times, and all come under the positive influence of a prophetic ministry.
E.C.B. Is that the character of the prophetic ministry in 1 Corinthians 14? “He is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested”, vv 24, 25.
B.M.D. Like king Saul.
E.C.M. Saul had many advantages. This seems the final advantage for him, to be among the company of the prophets prophesying, but as you said, Saul is exposed, as if it was something like Hebrews 4: 13, “And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do”.
B.M.D. Yes, it shows the importance of the prophetic side of things. We need the teaching, we need the apostles’ doctrine, but we equally need the application of the word through the prophet. We do not have apostles now, but we have the prophets.
E.C.M. “By a prophet was he preserved”, Hos 12: 13. There was every opportunity for Saul here, but he was fully exposed.
B.M.D. Yes. I wonder if you would repeat again what you said; you quoted Mr Raven.
E.M.W. Just that what has been—that is what has actually existed in fact—is an evidence or proof that it can be; and that should encourage us, should it not? that if God has reached something amongst His saints at one time, then it should be a proof to us that He can do that, and we should set ourselves to reach it.
B.M.D. Yes, let our resolves be that way. Do you not think so?
E.M.W. I am sure that is most important. I was thinking that in your first scripture, if I might just refer to it, the Lord’s first utterance in John’s gospel is “What seek ye?” It would be a great thing if the result of this meeting is exercise with us such as would cause the Lord to say to us “What seek ye?”.
B.M.D. Yes, and then His invitation, “Come and see ... and they abode with him that day”. Unforgettable, would it not be? We can have as much of the company of Jesus as we want. There is room in His bosom for every one of us. Would that we knew it more!
LONDON
18th July 1981
Key to initials
E.C.Burr; C.R.Byng; A.C.Clapham, Manchester; C.J.H.Davidson, Dorking; B.M.Deck, Motueka; D.J.Hutson; J.Mitchell, Bexley; E.C.Muggleton, Croydon; E.Palmer; R.D.Plant, Birmingham; D.E.Remmington, St.Albans; R.Taylor, Barnet E.M.Walkinshaw, Gillingham; P.S.Warren; A.J.E.Welch;
all local unless otherwise stated
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